(Topic ID: 224963)

Joe Balcer confirms Oktoberfest as American Pinball's next pin.

By PismoArcade

1 year ago

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Post #928 Oktoberfest initial release pics and rule card pic Posted by PinballSTAR (1 year ago)

Post #1686 Updated (final?) Oktoberfest cabinet art Posted by HOOKED (1 year ago)

Post #1954 Link to 3/1/19 streaming video Posted by chuckwurt (1 year ago)

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#65 1 year ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

The game better play awesome, because the theme sucks. I hope they don't slather it in lame boob art either.

Exactly. It better be AWESOME boob art.

#67 1 year ago
Quoted from halflip87:

Hoping for a "Get the high score, win a free beer" feature. That'd be enough to get me to play on location.

Yeah, optional beer redemption ticket dispenser seems to be a no-brainer.

#92 1 year ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I’ll play devils advocate - this could work...but only one way: it has to be FUNNY with lots of great characters, funny voices & scenarios. It has to be funny like Bally/Williams games were. It has to feel like it’s a successor to the WPC’95 games or Big Bang Bar. If it’s really upbeat and funny with appealing mechanical features that are satisfying to interact with, it could work. If it looks like another Sega game (Houdini art won’t work on this) or comes off as douchey or dated, it’ll be DOA.

They shoehorned quite a lot of comedy into a serious magician pin. I have no doubt that they have much more latitude to really run comedy-wild with a theme like Oktoberfest. But the boob art better be compelling.

#96 1 year ago

Better not be priced in Euros...

#99 1 year ago
Quoted from frolic:

I’ll add a bit more context to this announcement. Joe conceded that someone had already sniffed it out through the trademark filing. So it really wasn’t a secret any longer and thought it would be fun to throw us a bone at the show. But he wouldn’t have made the announcement if it wasn’t already public.

Yeah, it's been filed and public for a while:

#162 1 year ago
Quoted from Msch:

Not exactly sure what you’re talking about, the first game bombed.

Not around here it didn't. It regularly earns as much or more than Iron Maiden on route.

#203 1 year ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

Looks like it maybe has a third flipper with a side ramp:[quoted image]

That hole to the right of the ramp is definitely gonna need a cliffy. Hopefully it's an option from the factory like they're moving toward for Houdini.

#218 1 year ago
Quoted from tacshose:

Ha, except if you need some goodwill with a warranty claim, so I’m a wait and see, as I don’t trust these guys very much.

American Pinball has been GREAT with after purchase support. They've taken care of literally every issue I've tossed at them so far (and with an early production route game, we're not talking one or two issues involving parts). No need for concern at all based on my experience. Looking forward to the awesome Oktoberfest boob art to match their awesome support.

#255 1 year ago
Quoted from pinmister:

I actually think Octoberfest sounds like a cool theme. My problem is American Pinball's performance when it comes to taking care of their customers. 90 day-enforced warranty has me thinking I should stick with Stern or JJP. I wish them the best of luck but until they cover all of their customers for at least a year for all parts and warranty issues-I am out. Definitely not buying an extended warranty for a $7000+ game. BS-Slap in my face

You're confused. Stern's warranty is 60 days. They often (but not always) will support products beyond that. It's the same with ALL pinball manufacturers - the printed warranty is for liability, but the ACTUAL support period is often much longer. AP is no different, and their PRINTED warranty is LONGER than Stern. We're 7 months out on an issue with the Houdini on the route I help with and AP has been right there. It's not a problem. You're complaining about literally nothing.

The ONLY company that has warranty issues is CGC, and that's for second owners, in my experience. We eventually got support for THEIR problems (SOL machine board self-destruct ROM & plastics with peeling screened ink), but it was like pulling teeth, and Game Room Guys (their dist for this AfMr) are dicks, for the record. I'd never buy a pin from them. Been a first and second owner for Stern, JJP, and CGC pins, and CGC was the only problem.

#256 1 year ago
Quoted from Pinphila:

As a comparison, did JJP give out light boards to all second owners of woz that had issues?

Yep. JJP gave out 1.0 version light boards for YEARS after WoZ was manufactured in 2013, initially for free, and then for like 1/2 price. First owner, second owner, third owner, it didn't seem to matter. They had a problem and they took care of customers affected by it. Frank at JJP is great to deal with.

This was DESPITE having a very short warranty period on their printed warranty. They ALL do it this way for liability. If you come across as an entitled prick, they can just tell you to take a hike.

#261 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Funny... I remember it another way. JJP had a known faulty design, knew their customers would be impacted by it, and instead of tackling the problem head on, required customers to wait to fail, and then would only ship them piece meal solutions... resulting in customers dealing with frustrations for years.. instead of wiping out the problem with broad strokes like anyone who really 'took care of customers' would.

I have no idea when JJP knew the design itself was the problem, I just know that they took care of the issues with light boards as they came along, for me as the third owner, without hassle or issue YEARS after the game shipped. Can't say the same about CGC in that regard. Getting the SOL ROM THAT CAN DESTROY BOARDS was a hassle as Game Room Guys flat out denied to send it since we were the second owners, and CGC had told them it needed to be fixed for everyone. It eventually got worked out, but way more of a hassle than JJP to get fixed. American Pinball support is as good or better than JJP support in my experience so far...

#265 1 year ago
Quoted from PhantomO:

Can anyone recall any other modern-day pinball themes based on a cultural event? This is a gutsy decision. It beats another rock band or Marvel hero theme.

NASCAR? But it will DEFINITELY be a whole lot better than that turd.

#299 1 year ago
Quoted from BarryJ:

Why so angry??? Is it because we wouldn't use your product!

Ooohh...tell us a story, Uncle Barry!

storytime (resized).JPG
#304 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

funny... bet many people feel that way about coindoor remotes...

Ice-Cold-FreezeOtto (resized).jpg
#305 1 year ago
Quoted from MustangPaul:

Who doesn't like Oktoberfest.
[quoted image]

A mirror with that exact art has been on the wall of my office for 20 years.

#306 1 year ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Aaaah now this seems to make some sense here. I was wondering where the sour grapes smell was coming from

Where there's sour grapes there's whine.

#365 1 year ago
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

The stage door is pretty innovative. I cant think of another pin that has this.

The door part that opens and closes is similar to BDK's coffee can. So, maybe inspiration, but the stage curtain effect is much better.

#419 1 year ago
Quoted from fishbone:

While I think Whoa Nellie is a prime example of pinball art, I think it's way over the top in the sexual neediness department. Even the dog lusts for "Mellony" (ugh) for Christ's sake.
Boobs and beer are fine, but hopefully AP will keep it at a reasonable level.

If you have a Logan's Roadhouse nearby, check out the art on the walls near the entrance. They're about as over the top as Whoa Nellie, which I found surprising.

#437 1 year ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Take off you Hoser they put mice in those beer bottles of Elsinor!

Man a strange brew pin would be so sweet. I'd kiss you if I didn't have puke breath...

#478 1 year ago
Quoted from transprtr4u:

Hoping Cliffy gets a playfield! That way we are protected from the get go! And Cliffy won't be on the clock 7-24

I hope that, but I'll take it one further and hope that they offer cliffies from the factory, either as part of the base game, or as part of a factory-installed upgrade package that includes magic glass, shaker, knocker, art blades, and cliffies. Octoberfest Plus, if you will. Ditto Houdinis yet to be made...

#494 1 year ago
Quoted from Chicoman:

I gotta say after getting a chance to play Houdini which I liked very much I'm excited to see what they do for Ocktoberfest. Houdini is a pretty fun machine......sorta hard for the average pinball player but for diehard pinheads it's really a super deep ruleset and difficult game. If the gameplay is slightly easier shots but hard enough and deep enough for the diehard pinheads this game could be a sleeper!

Actually, I think noobs have an easier time with Houdini. Diehard pinheads have a hard time and brick shots due to muscle memory from wide use of the same shot geometry on so many Sterns over the years and it's not quite the same on Houdini. Once you adjust to the table, it's great, but lots of players blame the game, not the player, which is wrong.

#500 1 year ago
Quoted from ectobar:

I blame the game, because I don't think anything about it is fun.

Everyone doesn't HAVE to like it, but blaming the game design for personal taste and ability is misplaced.

#501 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

Game #3 :
Marvel's Iron Fist using TZ power balls as the FIST

I don't think AP will be doing licensed games. There's TONS of well-known public domain stuff to work with (soon Felix the cat, Steamboat Willy, some edgar allen poe stuff will ALL be public domain, also). There's also straight-up original IP. This "everything licensed" mentality is relatively new in the history of pinball. Pre-2000 most were unlicensed originals.

#507 1 year ago
Quoted from RobT:

So is being presumptuous enough to claim that someone who doesn't like the pin is lacking in ability.

You're right, I should have said personal taste OR ability. Thanks.

#514 1 year ago
Quoted from FlashDaddy:

Edgar Allen Poe is already 100% public domain. Copyright is currently life of the author plus 70 years and it used to be less than that. He died in 1849.
I never thought about it until you mentioned it, but Poe would make a killer theme. HP Lovecraft would be even better and he's been public domain since 2007.

My bad, I was thinking of some more of HP Lovecraft works that are due to be public domain soon. I'd be okay with a Felix the Cat pin, too.

#547 1 year ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

Because they're doing Oktoberfest - a theme with a lot of fun and creative possibilities. Give API some credit for not going with the same old done to death themes.

And same old done-to-death layouts.

#578 1 year ago
Quoted from BarryJ:

Sounds like you personally drink with him.

Mmmmm...seems likely. He also innovated "The Shocker" while blackout drunk.

#580 1 year ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

Took some screenshots of the Oktoberfest flyer at the York show from a video on Pinball Star's Facebook page:
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]

Otto is awesome. The chick has a broken back. Her feet are pointing forward and her torso is twisted to an impossible degree that makes her character give a very "weird" impression right off the bat.

#583 1 year ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

Really? She's twisted slightly to the left, maybe leaning on the bar a little with her left hip. You've obviously never seen anyone doing yoga. Also note that this is a screenshot of a video which was not shot from directly in front of the flyer, so it's probably not a great representation of the image. It gives you a bit of a feel for the artwork though.

Like I said, Otto proportionally and anatomically gives the vibe I would expect. The weird pose of the chick is just off-putting. The front of the dress (as the cross-tie trail on the front of the dress points) is almost directly in front of the bar, and her feet are facing the bar, but her upper torso (shoulders, especially) are relaxed like she's not contorted 130 degrees or more around below. It just jumped out to me as a weird "only in a drawing" pose. We'll see what it looks like in high res. But overall, I like the tone of the art, so that's a great first sign.

#590 1 year ago
Quoted from fishbone:

Good observation, vireland
Maybe she's a fembot.

Ha! I thought of the female Terminator who does those impossible contortions.

#609 1 year ago
Quoted from rosh:

unfortunate someone felt the need to share crappy photos they plucked off some video or something, just so they could be the first to share them.
But if you guys really need something to keep the conversation going . . .
[quoted image]

Motorboating feature confirmed.

#623 1 year ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

Double buttons may only be on one side. First game ever for that?

Harley Davidson.

#631 1 year ago
Quoted from DS_Nadine:

[quoted image]
Edit: Loool! The Forum showed me ZMeny talking to ZMeny, not your Name, sorry!!! XD

That's a bug in the board. Sometimes it shows the posts assigned to the wrong people, but a refresh fixes it.

#643 1 year ago
Quoted from djreddog:

Oktoberfest backglass. [quoted image]

Wow, Cointaker must have had to pay a bunch to get on every backglass.

#647 1 year ago
Quoted from BarryJ:

That is not the backglass.

Barry - blessed with a keen sense of the obvious.

#649 1 year ago
Quoted from Sidekick74:

My 2 cents for this thread...
[quoted image]

oktober-est (resized).jpg
#665 1 year ago
Quoted from Ferret:

Hopefully Josh is too busy working to notice that I'm sneaking whitewood photos between code updates...[quoted image]

Photo, not photos. Where are the rest? We won't tell.

And for the record, I hate those Data East-style rubber post bases.

#682 1 year ago
Quoted from rosh:

You know by now I can juggle multiple things at once, and if you are going to sneak a photo on to pinside, a least do it with art.
[quoted image]

Please consider making the targets more old-eye friendly. Those letters are REALLY small.

oktoberfest (resized).jpg
#694 1 year ago
Quoted from Ferret:

Alright, Pinside... y'all had one free bonus sneak peak request before Expo, and if this is what you want, your wish is our command.[quoted image]

Wait? No shooter lane cliffy at the factor? Booooo.

#721 1 year ago
Quoted from Cserold:

Damn. Nice work. This does look better. Critique is always best when it comes with a better proposed solution. May want to consider this AP.

Ha! Necessity is the mother of suggestion. I couldn't read those tiny target letters without glasses (not that I would need to once I know what I'm shooting for, but it'd be nice to be able to see the letters in-game).

#725 1 year ago
Quoted from rosh:

Letters on those targets is a 'bonus', not really a necessity, as you will see.

How about a short video today to demonstrate?

#767 1 year ago
Quoted from solarvalue:

Looks like a return to fun, colorful pinball, classic amusement park theme. I like it.

Yeah, has a very B/W carnival-y vibe.

#814 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

Excited for cab art reveal to see if I win the No Cleavage bet...

Leaked pics of the cab and backglass a couple hours ago were cleavage-free.

#840 1 year ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Magnet over by the Oktoberfest stand ups. Like drones but opposite side.

Both sides have magnets. One by "Oktober" and the other opposite in front of "Fest".

The music definitely still needs some work. That main rock theme will get old fast.

#865 1 year ago

They said not locked yet, but in the ballpark of Houdini, so likely around $7k.

#883 1 year ago
Quoted from PinBalt:

I have to agree with the previous comment on the art package. It is all over the place- hand painted art, photoshops of women and hand drawn art for logos. There is nothing cohesive. Fun to shoot but the art is lacking.

Hoping the art is still a work in process. It's a really great start, but nowhere near what I would call finished.

#902 1 year ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

It is going to be real interesting comparing this game in features and price as compared to the so-called next great Stern that is soon to be announced, the Munsters.
It would have been nice if they could have announced the price on Oktoberfest tonight.

Them confirming it's about the same as Houdini (but not locked in yet) means it's extremely unlikely to be LESS than $6,995, and probably something like $7,195 or $7,295. Still a pretty great deal for all the stuff packed in there.

Still hoping they offer an optional LE trim level from the factory that has magic glass, knockers, real cliffies, and art blades all installed at the factory so it comes ready to play.

#904 1 year ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

Does this game have any orbits?

It calls for you to make orbits, so probably, but I never saw any go all the way around.

#908 1 year ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

Perhaps the ramp lifts to expose the orbit?

Maybe. Watched for quite a while and eventually the bad metal on too short a loop made me turn the stream off. I liked just about everything else I saw, but that music has be be changed/fixed for the actual release.

#937 1 year ago
Quoted from FalconPunch:

There are 5 main tracks for the game, only 1 in at the moment I think. Happy

Hopefully the metal theme is a placeholder. It doesn't fit the tone of the game at ALL and is very repetitive and annoying. Some of the mode themes are quite nice, though.

#1027 1 year ago
Quoted from cooked71:

I the look of it.
Looks like a narrow body WOZ on acid. Animations look a bit amateur. But overall I'm a bit surprised I like it.

Yeah, AP is killing it on most fronts, but a consistent problem is art direction and animation for the video. They really need some hires from the console video game area.

#1029 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

• The main bartender's voice ... he sounds half Irish and half Swedish. Maybe he is German, but he certainly doesn't sound like it ... he also doesn't sound anything like the caricature ... he sounds young. You'd imagine from the character it'd be an older, raspier, deeper and much more German voice.
Some of the other voicing sounds alright. But most of it really doesn't sound German at all. In fact, I'm not sure I heard any German vocabulary or callouts .. which seems a bit strange. Make it German!

The game was counting in German and a smattering of other German calls on the live stream, but it's very German-lite. I agree that the voicing is completely off. Dude does not sound German - at all. He also sounds too young for the main character picture.

#1034 1 year ago
Quoted from HighVoltage:

Ben Heck called it. Why is American Pinball so concerned with being politically correct? Agree with jgentry they could have put some good eye candy in the artwork without being overtly sexual. Maybe there is some, not saying there's none, but I'm not looking at the main female character because she's attractive. She only caught my attention because she has an odd look: her face or expression, something seems off and I'm not totally sure what it is, but she looks weird to me. But weirder than that, I don't get why a monkey playing ass-grab is supposed to be something I want to see, but cleavage isn't?

They "hid" a completely naked chick in plain sight on a plastic right in the center of Houdini's playfield. I don't think that smacks of a "politically correct" ethos at AP.
houdini-window-chick (resized).jpg

#1036 1 year ago
Quoted from Darscot:

As someone from the console video game area, it really isn't feasible at this level. I struggle with this on every pin but I realized you just have to accept its a different industry with entirely different parameters. Hiring one or two guys is not going to make much of a difference.

JJP is killing it in the animation and UI department on every pin. I don't think they have a large team of animators, and they only have one art director to my knowledge. It can be done.

#1045 1 year ago
Quoted from Darscot:

Fair point, JJP does seem to take a lot more time as well. He did specifically say: "Some will like what we do, some won't, but at the same time to me it is the least important part of the machine, since it has the least value to the actual player and at some point you have to decide where you spend your time and money, if you do everything to the ultimate degree, you get a much more expensive machine and that is not where I want to see us be. "

I think players will give AP a pass on poor animations and some of the bad art like Houdini and what's been shown on this one, but as they get more well-known and successful, they will have to improve the art and animation package. Buyers, especially, will not excuse it in the same way they have for a startup. Even if it bumps the price $200 (that's close to $400k extra budget), I think most people would pay it to get some professional art and animation. You can EASILY get a nice crew for a year for that kind of budget if you're shopping in some of the more depressed areas of Europe. I have a buddy that does AAA console games that has an immensely talented crew in Kiev he could never afford in the US.

#1050 1 year ago
Quoted from Zablon:

Let's face it, the direction of LCD's so far is...less than stellar.

JJP is FAR ahead of all the other pinball manufacturers for video animation and UI. It's not even close. So, one manufacturer is killing it, the rest are languishing or don't care enough.

#1055 1 year ago
Quoted from Captain-Flint:

I agree with that 100%
But I also feel like LCD's are kind of lame. I never really look up to even appreciate the animations. So why would I want a company to charge me more for something I rarely look at? I wish companies can figure out a happy medium that saves us money but still is a useful feature.

I dunno. I play 2 player enough that it's nice to watch what's happening on screen while the other player is playing. I also look up for some of the "pause breaks" for lock animations, etc. Having nice animation and a good UI is very important, but only JJP is taking it seriously in the LCD era, as far as I'm concerned.

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Yup, 100%. WOZ came out over 5 years ago and still has better animations and display quality then LCD games from other manufactuers. Dialed In though blows everything out of the water with its animations. JJP is on a different level in the animation department.

jjPotC is no slouch, either. The animation I point to always that really speaks to their creativity integrating the video into a theme is when multiball starts and they have the camera below the water and pinballs falling into the water like cannonballs. Impressive. There's no other word for it.

#1057 1 year ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

Don't forget ACNC. Some of the best animations and LCD screen visuals in pinball today.

Meh. Amateurish integration with the UI. Some good ideas, but the execution isn't much over Stern level, and nowhere close to JJP's mastery of the form.

#1076 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

LOL @ "brass facts"

Well, this IS Chicago...wait, we're not talking about the band?

#1094 1 year ago
Quoted from OnTheSnap:

But also jjPOTC was delayed a full year from announce to ship. This alone has really hurt sales for JJP. A scaled back pirates shipping a year sooner was likely a better idea in retrospect. Don't you think? Just from the view of making JJP profitable as possible.
I agree that Oktoberfest animations look pretty bad and distracting. Obviously they are showing stuff that's only 30% done (their words). So to this, why not wait and show the game in December when its ready to ship? Instead of feeling required to show anything_ based on an Expo schedule. I feel like it's a real trap feeling pressure to show stuff this unfinished. They just shouldn't show it until they are really done. If they need more opinions, get some alpha testers in, etc

But animations were not the problem with jjPotC delays. Many of the cool animations and UI flourishes were there when they announced it. jjPotCs delays were almost entirely hardware, and that's a totally different conversation.

#1102 1 year ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I don't really feel like giving away free ideas to anyone, but I've sketched up plenty of creative LCD uses that haven't been done before, and I'm sure I've only scratched the surface of what can be done. Just means caring and being creative. The message I'm hearing right now is "we don't really care", and you get what you get with that approach.

Given the constraints and company BS, Alien launched with a pretty great video package (I totally forgot about this when I was saying everyone besides JJP was not great or didn't care about the video). American Pinball would be wise to give you a call and at least gauge your level of interest in helping them raise the bar for the video in their pins.

#1125 1 year ago
Quoted from GrandFireball1:

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but it looks like Joe Balcer is one of the characters on the back glass (Right) and so is Matt from Back Alley Creations (back left)

All I have to say is thank god they weren't naked like the easter eggs in Houdini's art package.

#1128 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

I don't mind the comparison to AMH. But remember we improved upon that with Rob Zombie and ACNC. We didn't go sideways or backwards.

Yes, there is definitely a progression of improving layout and design from AMH to ACNC. The weird thing about RZ is the cabinet art is much better than the PF art. Were those different people?

#1168 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

You can't change out playfield art once it hits production. At least not without a hell of a lot of time and talent, or the services of an expensive airbrush artist.
Both they and users can change the sounds after production.

That dude that custom-planked that Monster Bash playfield and made the custom Kill Bill machine (and others) could straighten that art out, guaranteed.

#1206 1 year ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Damn never seen the Natives lash out at Ben heck before!!!

They all turn on you eventually.

#1214 1 year ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Oktoberfest’s varying styles and resolutions.

This. It's weird that some of the photo art on the PF is blurry and other art (line art, drawn art) is crisp. Not a good look.

#1233 1 year ago
Quoted from Rascal_H:

Only part I don’t really like is the roller coaster part.[quoted image]

Some people like them. Not these two...

coasterpic (resized).jpg
#1267 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

It's not the wiring. It hits the bottom of the assembly ... and this is after having raised it a few mm with washers. Either off the left slingshot, or when balls are pinging around quickly. My slings are still pretty nuclear even with resistors. Sometimes in a 3 ball game, all 3 balls will drain that way.
Like I said, all the other AC/DCs I've played have had the issue ... just mine seems particularly bad.
Also, I have seen people claim that the STTNG cannons are obstructive ... though I don't see it myself. Maybe if you're short?

This doesn't happen on the AC/DC LTBR LE here at all either. Do you have the coils set to soft? That takes about 5% off the power.

#1280 1 year ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Complaining about Long games vs. short games with no context is a horrible way to critique a pinball machine.
-Content of a game matters. Hobbit has a billion things to do...

...many of which have a very same-y feel to them. Just having a LOT of modes doesn't make the game great or even fun. It's easily the worst JJP game, and I don't see them doing much more in the way of software because even with the new software it's still overall not that fun. We're not talking WWE-level bad, but it's JJPs worst by a mile, and I'm sure Jack is relieved to watch it in the rear view mirror after a troubled development and pretty mediocre sales.

#1283 1 year ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

So many lies. It’s beneath you. Play recent code. JJP’s best game, hands down. Modern masterpiece. The last great game any modern mfg has put out. Your loss if you can’t enjoy an incredible cinematic pinball adventure.

My loss then. If we're talking PRETTY, then you have a point. But I don't play pretty, and Hobbit is a very same-y game that is not much fun.

And all you have to do is look at the prices and length of time on the market (plus no more on the line) to realize that Hobbit is not the most desired JJP pin, and therefore not the masterpiece you say. You can like it (just like I and a LOT of others can dislike it), but the pricing and length of sale time says clearly "no masterpiece". Look for yourself, there's an $8500 first owner Black Arrow Hobbit with 100 plays on it today for $6650. Almost a $2000 loss in 100 plays is not "masterpiece pricing". And that's not isolated case. Hobbits often selling for $6000-$6500 IF they sell. Lots of "Not sold" too. Secondary market pricing always tells the story.

#1285 1 year ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

The “Pinside tastemakers” are wrong. They like Goatf***ers and every Zizzle-with-flow Stern puts out.

This is a generality, but likely true if you narrow the scope. How about you name some names? I'll likely nod my head. Especially on the ones shilling for Stern on the down low who think they're good at it.

Quoted from Rarehero:

The “market” is irrelevant to how I enjoy and review games. I thought Hobbit was garbage at first. So did you. That’s where it’s rep in this forum from the vocal haters comes from. Guess what? Play it now.

I have. Still sucks. Less suckage, but it still falls short of greatness.

Quoted from Rarehero:

It’s not the same game it used to be.

This is 100% true. It's just that they raised it out of the code sewer and into mildly enjoyable, undeniably beautiful game that I still don't like and is no masterpiece.

Quoted from Rarehero:

I don’t play unfun games. We can agree that WWE is a piece of shit. I’d never own or play a game that bad. I play Hobbit because it’s very fun. I like an adventure style game like TSPP & LOTR every so often, and Hobbit is the only modern game in that style.

If you left it at "I think Hobbit is fun" and didn't go Goatf***ers/Zizzle hype level crazy saying Hobbit was a "masterpiece" then I would have been, "meh, we'll agree to disagree" but I'd let it pass. But to put out there that somehow I and the market in general have it totally wrong and Hobbit is AMAZING NOW is just objectively wrong. The new software made it a lot better, but it didn't make it close to good enough to be in the "masterpiece" universe. And the secondary market in general (even outside Pinside) reinforces that with the declining number of greenbacks changing hands for the game.

#1299 1 year ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

An HUO LE sold locally here a few months back for $7200. There's always going to be sales where games are purposely priced to sell quickly. The lowest priced sale doesn't mean that is the average selling price for the game all of a sudden. Remember the HUO Star Trek LE for $6k? I do...that's not the new average selling price of the game though.
Also, a LOT of others like The Hobbit as well The game is incredible with its latest code.

Of course. There's a wide range of sale prices due to geography, motivation, and time of year, but on a "masterpiece" the price trend is generally up. Hobbit is down to flat over time. That was the only point - using the sales data to be a more objective refutation of the game being a masterpiece. That doesn't mean people can't like it, but that simple sales price data point helps keep the hyperbole to a simmer.

#1301 1 year ago
Quoted from Eskaybee:

You do realize Hobbit holds the royal crown for Math-Depth right? do mode A and xyz modes will be multiplied, etc... And how many modes and multiplier algorithms are there in hobbit? ...nuff said. And I'm Not saying it's a bad thing, as I love that kind of detail to code. I'm just saying, Hobbit is the champ in the Math-Depth department, IMO; though, Pirates is taking a stab at surpassing it.

Laying it bare! Are you not entertained?

#1305 1 year ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

I take it they didn't have the $9,000 Mafia pinball machine that looked like it was made from an Ikea kit at this show? That may have changed your list...

I thought Mafia was $7,500? I wish either or both Thunderbirds or Mafia had been at PAGG. Would have definitely tried a game or two to get an opinion on them.

What's the deal with Thunderbirds? Can software save it, or is the playfield design just too bad?

#1307 1 year ago
Quoted from NimblePin:

Once you flip one, you will have your answer to your question. Vic was actually being nice in his above description, I thought.

Well, just to tide me over since I won't have a chance at hands-on until next year, where would you say the problem lies? Hardware or software...or both?

#1309 1 year ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Thats what I thought also till I asked. The 10 games made are 9k, IF they sell the remaining 90 of 100 will be made for 7,500. Overall I could live with the Very low cost overlay playfield and cheap build but Not for 9k. Not even sure if it had speakers as you had to play it with headphones which they didn't explain why?? If it was 3-4k I would have layed down the cash. 9k Or 7500 not a chance.

Wow. The playfield is an OVERLAY? I had no idea! With Mirco and CPR doing pretty much on-demand screening, there's really no excuse for that these days.

How did Mafia flip? It seems very basic...like Jetsons/Dominoes basic.

#1332 1 year ago
Quoted from SheriffBarclay:

You have to fight past 40 homeless people to get in the door though.

They're all millionaires. It's a lifestyle choice in Portland.

#1359 1 year ago
Quoted from arcademojo:

When all the big arcades died out in the late 80's early 90's the only place you could find pins where bars and pizza joints around here. Even in today's times a few arcades popped back up but if you're lucky they might have one beat up pin. The best place to play in Harrisburg is a bar. River City blues and Dart club. It's not a barcade. It's just a sports bar with a row of pins on one wall.
[quoted image]

One of these pins is not like the others
One of these pins sure doesn't belong

#1362 1 year ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

Unlike some, I'm fine with the drawn Otto and Greta characters. It's the turning Otto head on the playfield that I'd like to see changed to another that better matches his drawn form.

I felt that the head on the PF was a rough prototype. I HOPE that's the case as it needs work. It's not JJP witch model bad, but still a pretty poor representation of the one from the art.

#1369 1 year ago
Quoted from Ferret:

Alright, here comes technical nitty-gritty.
The lock mechanism has a nice design that when a ball is released, it physically blocks the other balls in the lock so they don't slip by and cause an unintentional multiball. (Anyone remember Cirqus Voltaire high wire lock release glitches? Yeah, none of that in Oktoberfest.) What this means is that if there's already a ball in the coaster lock, we can do a "no stop" pass-through, kinda like LOTR's sword lock. We take advantage of this during the Looper tent, which rewards combo shots on the coaster ramp. However, if there isn't already a ball in the lock, we have to wait for an incoming ball to reach the "front" position before we can release it, which causes a brief stoppage. It'd be cooler if we could speed that stoppage in all situations, but I'm happy to accept that to get super-reliable ejects from the lock.
Fun pinball development trivia: the early whitewood had the coaster ramp but not the coaster lock device. We were shooting the coaster ramp with such speed that occasionally the ball would fly right on through the top stretch of the ramp so fast that it just smacked into the side of the cabinet, instead of following the coaster ramp wireform. Oops.

Thanks for the background info!

Is there a watchdog circuit in this game that prevents continuous coil lock-on conditions in the case of shorts or transistor failure? Also are EOS switches standard on this release?

#1370 1 year ago
Quoted from WODKA:

Hey Rosh/Ferret, two decals on the metal (bottom and side) where the ball falls out from the keg would be nice. Looks very naked and unfinished now.
Make it look like bier is flowing out from that keg!

A keg-tap shaped nozzle instead would finish the look.

#1380 1 year ago
Quoted from rosh:

That's the plan

Okto's Lower flippers have EOS.
There is a watchdog to prevent a loss of communication between the computer and the control system from resulting in locked coils, but the system does not monitor individual drivers for failures if that is what you are asking

Yep, that's what I was asking. I know Houdini didn't have that, and after that early issue that would lock a coil and cause the coated paper to create a lot of smoke (very concerning for a location owner), I was hoping Oktoberfest had this ability.

#1381 1 year ago
Quoted from jwilson:

Yes, PD-16s have fuses on them.

Different than a watchdog circuit, and you can still melt a coil without popping the fuse. We did it on Houdini.

#1432 1 year ago
Quoted from BarryJ:

The art displayed on the proto games are not the final art work... The art on OKF will evolve before the final production version. The alternative art package will be more of an adult theme and therefore an option to the standard art package. This option is still in a infancy mode and may never come to fruition.

PLEASE use better material for the art blades, more like Stern uses. Something vinyl-like, not the paper-like media for Houdini's that is extremely fragile.

#1434 1 year ago
Quoted from rosh:

The side art on Oktoberfest is a different material

That is worthy of a celebration! The Houdini paper art blades were terrible.

#1460 1 year ago
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

Hey Ben, I like you man and your experience and knowledge in pinball.
Never once did I go into the AMH thread and tell you how to improve the art package, that backglass, and gameplay.
Just saying.

Maybe you should have...

Just sayin'

#1462 1 year ago
Quoted from robotron:

i dont know if this was ever discussed. there should be a drinking game incorporated into this pin. one player makes shots or modes to make the other player(s) drink up. how funny would that be.

It would be hilarious until the losing player spews all over the glass. Puke smell is impossible to get out of beer seal. You pretty much have to replace it. Don't ask how I know.

#1465 1 year ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

I know we all try to save where we can, but I think I’d rather replace $.60 worth of beer seal than try to wash puke out of it.

That was the conclusion I reached in the "what am I doing?" moment that came pretty quickly.

#1470 1 year ago
Quoted from tacshose:

This is an unlicensed theme, the artwork and music should have been AMAZING and the general consensus is that it is not. At the pricing just published I don’t see this outselling Houdini, and this theme could have been amazing, not a photoshop chop job with metal music.

I have confidence AP will work to make the package as attractive as possible. I *hope* that means much more refined cab/backglass/pf art (and later, in-game art and animation). They did and continue to do an amazing job on Houdini, despite the steep learning curve and some issues here and there, and I would think that Oktoberfest will build on that foundation.

#1480 1 year ago
Quoted from colonel_caverne:

I was wondering if it was possible to lit the arrow inserts with a « running » led light in the way of the arrow.
I think it could be a cool effect. I don’t know if I make myself clear.

You mean like the one on The Last Starfighter homebrew?

#1482 1 year ago
Quoted from colonel_caverne:

No in this style but for a pinball and in particular for the arrow insert that are in four parts
I don’t know if it could make a cool effect or not.

Same idea. Microcontroller and multiple LEDs. They COULD do it, but I don't know if they WILL. It could be added as a mod, though.

#1503 1 year ago
Quoted from Roostking:

Adults today are pussies and generally look forward to being offended, then rushing out to their fave SM platform to find fellow "Offendees" to commiserate with. Pinside is not different.

Real Time last week had a part of his interview with a professor about how and why the next generation is easily hurt/offended and aren't prepared to deal with counter-opinions. Pretty interesting.

#1508 1 year ago
Quoted from Spencer:

Thanks for the spelling lesson, lol. Classic WA State soap box.

Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

You're welcome. Thanks for the stereotyping.

And, thanks for both saying thanks. Manners matter, even when you're digging in.

#1530 1 year ago
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

I see Oktoberfest comes with a subwoofer in cabinet. Nice addition for game 2!
Will it include a Knocker as well? The physical kind, not the art work kind.

Comes with two knockers.

#1552 1 year ago
Quoted from BarryJ:

I am sure the final art work will be stunning... Cabinet and back glass.

Have you been drinking again? Fess up.

2 weeks later
#1590 1 year ago
Quoted from BertoDRINK1:

Is this the new backglass?
New Normal looking girl over the Monkey
[quoted image][quoted image]

The girl looks a WHOLE lot better (did they fix her on the cabinet as well?), but the composition is weird. Not visually harmonious. For example, how tall is that girl? Ottos knees are on the bottom of the backglass, but that's only mid-thigh on the girl (where she cuts off), implying she's like 7 feet tall or Otto's a midget. Neither works right.

#1598 1 year ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

or she's just in the foreground? people are getting ridiculous here

With no visual cues to back that, it just looks weird. It's not ridiculous, it's graphic design. Whether or not you notice these things, you're subconsciously aware of them.

#1601 1 year ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Oktoberfest is live!!

Why is everyone sitting to play?

Still not feeling the generic metal music. The transitions to traditional Oktoberfest music and back again are jarring. It's just too different.

#1612 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

Music sounds fine to me. Needs variety because non stop polka would drive people to MAD-NESS!

It doesn't need to be a polka packed soundtrack, but it DOES need to be a cohesive package. Houdini is for the most part very cohesive musically. Oktoberfest thus far is not and the changes are jarring. Jarring is bad.

#1614 1 year ago

Jarring/JarJar, same diff. Bad.

#1619 1 year ago
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

AND the music.....Just watching 5 minutes of video it gets old fast, and with long ball times it will really get old in Home environment.

Music is arguably most important since you hear that while you're playing and can't watch the screen. Animation is mostly for people watching. I mean, both need a lot of work, but the music is by no means close to working.

#1638 1 year ago
Quoted from BarryJ:

We are trying to ship 30 units by end of the year.

How many fatalities are figured into that?

#1642 1 year ago
Quoted from BertoDRINK1:

Yeah but they have development cost of usually over 50 million dollars for those top games and they sell over a million copies. Not really the same thing VS the small teams developing these pins.

Harmonious design (including fonts) can be done for very little money. It's a matter of attention to detail.

And top games aren't 50 million anymore. They were already up to 5 million almost 30 years ago in 1990. The topmost blockbusters are in the hundreds of millions now.

3 weeks later
#1684 1 year ago
Quoted from LTG:

Haven't heard any yet.
They were hoping to be in the new building by the end of the year and 30 Octoberfests shipped by then.
They also are working hard to do the best they can. So it wouldn't surprise me to see delays rather than sacrificing quality.
I'm sure we'll hear great things soon.
LTG : )

Yeah, I really hope they delay it by at least 3 months to do some substantial polishing on the art/animation/music. If they launch it as it's been seen recently, it's going to flop hard.

#1691 1 year ago
Quoted from HOOKED:

Is this the final art for the back glass?
The cabinet art looks better but not a fan of the roof line shingles.
I could live with this.
[quoted image][quoted image]

They really didn't change much on the cab sides. Took off the giant logo-blocking characters, moved the company logo, added a few flowers by the parchment.

1 month later
#1758 1 year ago
Quoted from rosh:

Okay, since you guys bumped this post, I'll pipe in.
Things are progressing nicely with Oktoberfest.
Ferret and I are cranking away on code, and I am really happy with how it is coming together. He and I are both pretty passionate and we have really have some great discussions around the rules and philosophy around overall game play.
We did make a few playfield changes and while I won't go into all of them, I'll post a photo below of the scoop change we made. We had already used a 'runoff' on the VUK at the top of the playfield, and Joe was able to do something similar for the scoop, so bounce outs are basically a none issue.
There are also many changes to the art package, including the backglass, cabinet, playfield and plastics. And while the monkey may no longer be on the backglass, he is certainly still a part of Oktoberfest.
I have not listened to Kaneda in awhile, so not sure what he has been saying, but in general, I don't get how anyone who can really criticize a game they have never seen in person, let alone played.
We will certainly bring a few production Oktoberfest machines to TPF, and be sure to attend our seminar to learn more about the changes we have made and about the rules.
Remember that with Oktoberfest Pinball on Tap, every day can be Oktoberfest. I think it is time for a shot and beer.
Here is the scoop photo
[quoted image]

Can't wait to lay my hands on this, but where's the Cliffy? Did Houdini's scoop damage over time prove nothing to you?

I would hope at the VERY LEAST there was a factory OPTION to have one pre-installed (maybe in an LE package with art blades, knocker, invisiglass, shaker, and Cliffy protection on the scoop and shooter lane).

#1759 1 year ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

If it plays good, that’s all I care about. So if you figured out how to put all that on there and it still plays great, that’s awesome.
But more often than not when I Cliffy is on a scoop or saucer on a well played game, they get chewed up and reject like crazy. No fun.

If you tighten them too hard at the points they attach to the playfield, the thin metal will torque and can lift slightly, causing what you describe. I've installed a ton and never had cliffies cause rejects EXCEPT on KISS' scoop, and that was primarily because the hole was too small from the factory.

#1761 1 year ago
Quoted from wesman:

I'd love the option to have this installed at factories. Doing the shooter lane the other night, and the eject, was pretty challenging for a first time owner. Not to mention nerve wracking.

Pretty sure they'd sell a bunch of LE bundles with all the stuff listed pre-installed.

#1765 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

Stern and JJP are now installing them from the factory.

Nope, there is exactly ONE pin that has cliffies from the factory.

Stern just straight up ripped off the idea from Cliff and did it worse.

JJP used actual cliffies on Dialed In after trying and failing a number of times to get a solution of their own design that worked, wasting months and god knows how many cracked playfield clearcoats in the interim. Big credit to Jack for finally making the decision to put cliffies on the Dialed Ins at the factory and stopping the madness. Womp Womp for reverting on jjPotC.

I know that people use metal hole protection interchangably with "Cliffy" but it does him a disservice when almost all of them just are ripping him off and doing a worse version.

I've said it before but Cliff has a TON of engineering experience and decades of real-world hole protection experience. If any of the manufacturers wanted to make hole designs that were more wear resistant and protector-friendly, they would really benefit from asking for his help at the design stage. He's open to collaborate and would like to see better hole designs from the factory - I've asked him. I see the beveled holes on AP machines and shake my head. The bevel will not help the wear situation and it makes it much harder to make a good protector. Houdini proved that, but they're doing it again (apparently) on Oktoberfest.

#1767 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

I see.
It does seem odd that almost everyone who has a couple games knows about cliffy's protectors or mantis protectors, and tries to get something going for protection, yet factories balk as this needed solution.
Although a couple layers of mylar is better than nothing I guess.

Mylar is helpful for rolling protection, but in an area like a scoop where the ball can hit the top and slam down on the playfield on eject (see: Houdini) mylar will not stop the clear from cracking, it'll just keep it all in one piece. That's why the Mantis-style one on Oktoberfest scoop paired with the beveled hole is a bad solution.

#1771 1 year ago
Quoted from Aniraf:

This made me lol.

Well, now that you point out the potential alternate reading...I'm not sure he has universal hole protection experience, but he definitely can tell you a thing or two about playfield hole design.

#1774 1 year ago
Quoted from Daditude:

Will Oktoberfest be at the Texas Pinball Festival??

I would be shocked if it wasn't.

#1778 1 year ago
Quoted from Daditude:

Cool. Thank you!!
Is there any chance a new JJP pin will be there too??

Supposedly they'll show the new Yellow Brick Road version of WoZ, but no Wonka.

1 week later
#1808 1 year ago
Quoted from rosh:


From a code standpoint, not really the same game, given that we only showed, I think, 4 of 14 tent modes at that point, not sure if the food stand modes were fully implemented, none of the various wizard modes were done, neither of the outlane modes, and only a few audio tracks. The list goes on and on and you will soon get to see it. There are also a few playfield changes as well art package changes.

Have the screen graphics been overhauled? They were the biggest problem with the last version you showed, IMO. Super-inconsistent and amateurish art direction and implementation.

1 week later
#1929 1 year ago
Quoted from rosh:

That’s still a prototype cabinet

On Rockin' Express (basically a carnival Flying Bobs/RockandRoll/Tai-Fun/Matterhorn/Himalaya, etc ride), can you make the riders start puking if you hit the spinner enough to make it go really fast?

I could see Oktoberfest being hilarious if you can make bad things happen to the sims in the park the better you play.

#1935 1 year ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

The rock music kills it for me. There is an endless supply of music that would fit an Oktoberfest theme, and while some of it is there, the use of music outside of the theme kinda kills the theme. I love Oktoberfest and German heritage being German myself and in one of the most German states in the US. I joined a Pomeranian dance group and a Bavarian dance group at points in my life. I want to love this pin but the out of place music is a deal breaker.
Anyone know if we can mod the music in these pins ala cleland?

It's not even that it's rock, but the most generic, repetitive rock possible. I think Houdini nailed the music. None of it sticks out like a sore thumb, and most of it is very enjoyable. I can't say that about Oktoberfest so far. There's very little tangible improvement in the music cohesiveness since last year from what I saw on the stream, which is a bummer.

#1937 1 year ago
Quoted from Ferret:

So talking about the music: there IS method to the madness. We have three major categories of things to do in Oktoberfest Pinball On Tap: beer/drinking events, rides, and midway games. Each of these categories comes with its own style of music... the music for the midway games has a carnival/festival vibe, the music for the rides leans more towards rock, and the beer features use polka/oompah style music. This is all part of our overall intention to let the player explore EVERYTHING that Oktoberfest has to offer... contrary to what some might think, the festival called Oktoberfest is not just oompah music and drinking beer until you pass out, there's much more to it than that.

That's fine, but to succeed, it still has to integrate with the other music to make a cohesive package. It doesn't do that now. And, it might be easier to swallow if it weren't super-generic, super repetitive rock like you might find in a royalty-free music collection for commercials.

Houdini unfortunately set a high bar in the music quality and integration department for you to meet again. AP has shown they CAN do it, so now it's expected, regardless of theme.

#1942 1 year ago
Quoted from adborto:

Might have missed this, does anyone know what happened to the figures on top of the pop bumpers? API - pleases say that you didn’t remove them!

They're still pictured in the current video mode, so maybe the final ones were just not ready yet? The prototype ones last year were pretty roughed in.

#1959 1 year ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

Was this uploaded somewhere so those that missed the stream can see it?

There's a link a few posts back, or in the key post index at the top of the page.

#1968 1 year ago
Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

+1 except for mirror on the sides (I like the existing art blades just fine).
To be totally honest, I'm not as hot on purchasing an Oktoberfest as I was prior to the latest stream. Hopefully, major improvements with the music and animations are still forthcoming. I also watched various segments throughout the stream, but never caught a single ball going into the barrel or a beer barrel multiball in action. A little concerning. Finally, the new Greta replacement (in the animations) looks a bit scary as well!

AP desperately needs an artist/animator with experience in art direction, preferably in video games. There's no way around it. The only question is, how long will they put it off, causing titles to sell less than their potential before they realize it's costing them more than they're saving.

#2020 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

The two color men walking around reminds me of this:

Seriously AP. Why do you spend millions making games and near zilch on one-time costs like art?

Ice-Cold-FreezeOtto (resized).jpg

Haha. QFT.

It's the lack of frames of animation. Any of those digitized games from that era have that effect.

I kind of understand what they're going for with the people walking around, but if that's what they want to do, then different shots of the "park" or "grounds" with an announcer talking about what a great day it is, and the event announcements, lost people, or whatever to give it a more festive, cohesive feel with an NBA Jam-like commentary could work. The quiet, aimless courtyard as it is now seems weird.

#2021 1 year ago
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

Really Ben, you want to be one of those negative nilly's?

Nihilists? I've never seen it used like that.

Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

At least wait till pin is done.
I dont know what grudge you have, maybe this gets it off your chest for negative comments on AMH.
You of all people should support your peers and the hard work that goes into making pinball.

Not to speak for him, but there's been almost nothing to indicate AP will improve the animation and art direction to a level beyond what they've shown for the last 4 months. Things are moved around and minor things are changed, but the main problem is the same. I believe that's what he's commenting on. Not that AP isn't trying, just that they're clearly dropping dollars to pick up pennies.

#2038 1 year ago
Quoted from delt31:

You are absolutely out of your longhorn mind if you think the animations on Ocktoberfest are better than TWD dots - one of the greatest examples of dots on any game ever. I would take DOTS on TWD any day of the week over the amateur hour that is this games video package. If they can't pony up the cash to get it done right, I rather them just keep this a DMD game. I think they would be better off for it.

And even the AESTHETIC of TWD aside, TWD is undeniably a COHESIVE art and animation package. It all fits together and belongs in the same universe (and colorDMD accentuates how great the dots really are). Oktoberfest is a huge mishmash of art, fonts, and animation that does not go together right now, and it sounds like little plan to change that in any meaningful way.

#2041 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

Colored dots look good because they originate in black & white. The artist had to take contrast and readability into account when designing them. The color is just icing on a cake. If a design doesn't work in B&W then it doesn't work.

Of course. Working in a primary color and some gradients of that color is very hard and precise work if you want it to look good.

#2042 1 year ago
Quoted from whitey:

I look forward to seeing it in my house !!!
Out here in CA Bay Area there aren’t many games on location which sucks
I think AP builds beautiful games and I feel the best screen backglass configuration on the market hands down
Hope they build games for a longtime

Are you kidding? You have a couple enormous pinball-centric arcades in SF. Free Gold watch and another that slips my mind. FGW even gets some pins pre-release for a week or two.

#2044 1 year ago
Quoted from whitey:

SF is 20 miles , parking sucks and car break ins and theft is rediculous, SF looks good in movies but it’s dirty and too many Rats ! 2 and 4 legged

I don't live there, but we go into the city fairly frequently (there ARE a LOT more homeless around downtown in the last few years), and never had a car break-in or trouble parking. I mean, if you can survive the Orpheum exit at NIGHT on the edge of the tenderloin district and then have to WALK 1-2 blocks to the parking, you can pretty much do anywhere downtown. The tenderloin is about as sketch as it gets.

For FGW's selection, I'd brave that every couple months and you can play all the new stuff in one place.

#2050 1 year ago
Quoted from SDTMinSTL:

Delt, it never was my intention to insult anyone, yourself included. I do feel that it is a lazy narrative though. Lets take your POTC that you love for instance, and I believe either own or have committed to. Is it difficult to have video assets put on a LCD from an existing IP? I'm not sure, but I doubt it. Are the animations outside of those licensed assets so stunning that you bought one? I am not picking on Pirates. I am just giving an example here.

THAT is a lazy and actually false narrative.

jjPotC has a TON of custom 3D that is created to seamlessly integrate with the movie assets. It's SO good you may not have noticed it, which is testimony to its excellence. A PERFECT example is the multiball intro for the chapters, and especially the On Stranger Tides chapter that has the camera in the water and the cannonballs/pinballs falling into the sea off the side of the ship. It's impressive and seamlessly integrated with the rest of the assets. Art direction, font use, music, and animation are all top-level for that and are an example of the work that is a universe away from the level of work AP is doing with Oktoberfest. They COULD get that level of work (in 2D or 3D, live action or animated) with a talented artist/animator with art direction skills, but they haven't.
jjPotC Multiball.gif


#2052 1 year ago
Quoted from whitey:

AP ??? Any guess when you start shipping ?

I think I remember Josh saying they'll be shipping later this month.

#2055 1 year ago
Quoted from ronaldvg:

Concerning the animation, is it not so that they are also held back by the electronics they use ? I can very much imagine that the full on PC that JJP uses with a SSD with loads of storage is much better for animations and video content than the system AP uses (is that PROC ??)
That of course has nothing to do with the fonts being used or the colors, but that is always subjective as tastes differ and maybe the thoughts behind it are unknown to us (like what Ferret explained with the music choice in OF, btw here another vote for getting rid of the rock ).

Bad font choices, bad colors, bad transitions, bad 2D animations are not a function of the graphics chip. On-board graphics chips these days are plenty powerful enough to deliver the graphics you're seeing on jjPotC, but I'm pretty sure most of that is pre-rendered anyway, so literally ANY PC that can stream video can play that level.

The AP problem is primarily an art direction and animator talent issue.

#2070 1 year ago
Quoted from spoke:

what JJP has done on with the LCD on their games is pretty outstanding, they also cost significantly more money. From what I have see American pinball is giving a lot of game for the money and if one of the reasons the game is less expensive is they put less budget into the animations, I get that. Question is, would it be worth say $500 a game for better animations

Yes. It would absolutely be worth $500 more to get a full professional animation package with good art direction and cohesive design.

But it would not cost that much. They could get where they need to go by about half that, which would be "good enough" and set a platform for them to really blossom with their upcoming unlicensed titles like Sherlock Holmes and Robin Hood, etc.

#2087 1 year ago
Quoted from spoke:

I'd like to know what you are smoking and where I can get some.
Sure, the animations are certainly not JJP, but from what I have seen so far, they are certainly better then pretty much any dots I have seen. Makes it hard to take you seriously when you make such an over the top statement like that.

He's talking about the artistry and cohesiveness, not the resolution and pictures. Many, MANY DMDs (most?) have better art direction and artistry than Oktoberfest.

If you think that Oktoberfest animations are good, you are a bad judge of animation quality. I've been involved with a LOT of game animation and it's objectively poor, unless we're talking early 1990's level.

All of this is bad because the GAME itself seems like it could be really fun. AP is shooting themselves in the foot (or worse: head) by going cheap on screen content.

#2131 1 year ago
Quoted from frankmac:

The trim looked great on the SDTM unboxing.

They're changing the chick. I think they said it wasn't the final version.

#2154 1 year ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

They also choose to put the time and money into creating some of the highest quality animations, music, features, and rules in pinball. It shows in all of their games.

Forget "some of" they are the LEADER in those areas. The only place they lag is in getting them made and on route reliability.

#2157 1 year ago
Quoted from TiltDis:

If it hasn’t been posted before... Pac-Man Entertainment in Schaumburg, IL has an Oktoberfest on location! Looks to be production game possibly based on the backglass and cabinet.
[quoted image]

Art blades and cabinet art are both different, so that's probably the real deal.

#2161 1 year ago
Quoted from screaminr:

It would be good if Otto on the playfield looked the same as Otto on the back glass

How much extra are you willing to pay for that? On that one point I can suspend disbelief, but yes, it would be nice.

#2163 1 year ago
Quoted from screaminr:

Why would it cost any extra to make , you just mold it to look the way you want . Unless they just found some random head to use .

Random dude's head with generic oktoberfest hat is cheaper than molding an exact 3D version of the dude from the backglass. Also there may be engineering considerations that would require design changes to accommodate the wider lower face of the backglass version. And figuring all that out takes time, which costs money. There's definitely costs involved in getting the face changed. I'd like to see it too, but if we're spending money, I'd rather see better animation and art direction on the big screen.

#2172 1 year ago
Quoted from Edenecho:

How much could todd tuckeys face cost?

Well, for one, the licensing would be excessive.

#2179 1 year ago
Quoted from Aniraf:

What's wrong with those ones?

I think he's talking about optional nekkid versions.

#2194 1 year ago
Quoted from rosh:

They were a casualty of budget issues, but I believe they will be available for purchase.

You really, REALLY need a Premium level machine option. Factory-installed art blades, invisiglass, shaker motor, EOS switches, knocker, cliffy protection (shooter lane and holes - you'd be the first, JJP just did holes), bumper car characters, matching face on playfield dude (okay, maybe not the last one, but you'd have at least one buyer down under with that) would be a hit with a good portion of the users.

You're leaving a fair amount of money on the table by not offering it. I understand and appreciate holding the line on pricing, but offering a Standard and a Premium will only fatten your bottom line and most of the parts you already have in-house sitting there, not making the money they could. Plus, there's still the Standard version that's always been there for people that only want that.

#2197 1 year ago
Quoted from arcadem:

Lloyd, I understand your point. But, let's wait and see how much they will cost each individual buyer that still wants them. I will hazard a guess that if AP offered them as an add on item for even $50 per set, they would get a high take rate. And, I would also bet that a set as a mod will be at least $50 if not more. I just hope that AP does not nickle and dime other more important features and components. Could this be a harbinger of that? We shall see.

I think AP needs to start charging what it costs to survive as a low-volume manufacturer. Their pricing is great, but it's too low for what they're offering, and a bump in price would give them the budget to fix art and animation to bring them up to a survivability level, too. Also, why re-invent the wheel with the power situation? Stern is buying off-the-rack Meanwell power supplies. If it's good enough for Stern, it should be good enough for AP.

#2219 1 year ago
Quoted from screaminr:

Jjp potc has shooter lane protection with rails the entire length of the Shooter Lane .

Haven't seen a jjPotC in person yet, thanks for the info.

#2248 1 year ago
Quoted from pinballjj:

lots of potential cool options for mods to put on top of the bumpers, particularly if you are not wed to the bumper cars concept , ( to me the bumper cars need the drivers , at the first glance of the playfield without the drivers I thought why do they have glitter clogs there?)
maybe a nice replica of a mug of frothy beer on a bed of orange yellow and red leaves like they are in Oktober?
weiner dogs too!!

Go the Zingy Bingy route and make them boobs.

#2250 1 year ago
Quoted from LTG:

A duck in leiderhosen, a hot dog, and monkey with the bandage on his crotch.
LTG : )

My question is, how slow of a healer is this monkey? That bandage has been on a long time...

#2258 1 year ago
Quoted from LTG:

Could be a long time. Testicles don't grow back overnight.
LTG : )

I would hope the incision would heal, though. You might pack a light sack but not need a bandage the rest of your life.

#2268 1 year ago
Quoted from screaminr:

How much extra are you willing to pay for that . Do you want generic boobs or exact 3D molded boobs . Also there maybe engineering considerations that would require design changes to accommodate the wider lower breasts , and figuring all that takes time , which cost money . There is definitely costs involved in getting the bumper cars changed . I'd like to see it too , but if we're spending money I would rather see better animation and art direction on the big screen .

We clearly are on the same page.

#2286 1 year ago
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:

I do like the...
"And this is how way say goodbye in German..slap" IJPA
My boy always makes the slap movement at me!

That's a punch.

#2317 1 year ago
Quoted from rosh:

Now that last item should give you something to argue about.

New Houdini code at TPF?

#2321 1 year ago
Quoted from Ferret:

We’ve still got quite a bit more coming in the lighting department, so it’ll only get better.

Was the music way down on the stream on purpose? It was really hard to hear if there were any improvements.

#2327 1 year ago
Quoted from Ferret:

But hilarious.

Hardlarious? New term for the flyer.

#2344 1 year ago
Quoted from Platypus:

I had fun playing the games but being one of the most popular table in the hall, I only played a few rounds. The tent modes are fun. I couldn’t hear of the music.
Can’t wait to play in a quiet setting

I *think* the music was turned down more than usual. None of the streams I saw of it had the music loud enough to hear. Likely on purpose since it got so much criticism. Hopefully it's being fixed.

#2364 1 year ago
Quoted from rosh:

For those who like numbers, I pulled audits from the four games that were in our booth, a few highlights . . .
Avg game time was 4:38
Avg score was 168,366
The most played tent modes were:
juggling 21%
Duck Hunt 13%
Target Shooting 10%
Least played were:
Rotor 3%
Tap It 4%
Stein Race 5%
BTW, while you can continue to play a tent mode you have not yet won, starting Juggling to have a 2 ball multiball is not really going to score much unless you advance through it by adding the balls and getting to the win and re-lighting the shots
Most popular Steins:
Sloshed Rosh Lager -- easier to spell OKTOBERFEST 13%
Engler Pale Ale -- more time in tents 12%
Frosty Ferret -- Higher Beer Barrel MB jackpots 11%
Least Popular Steins:
Reclab Redrum Stout -- Easier to increase bonus 2%
Pin Wiz Pale Ale -- Increases pop bumper values 2%
Master Mystery Dark -- Increases spinner values 3%
Game Time Distribution
[quoted image]
Scoring distribution
[quoted image]

The monkey stein was not popular?

#2371 1 year ago
Quoted from chillie:

Does the topper come with the game or is it extra?

If it's like Houdini, it's extra.

#2389 1 year ago
Quoted from Chitownpinball:

Played one of these at cidercade in dallas. The shots are alright, but man those animations are terrible. I assume its beta software. I may be back there tonight, Ill put in a few more games.

I haven't heard any indication they will be fixing the amateurish animations all over the game. It's really the main thing holding us back from bringing one in for the route. Just don't cut the mustard in the age of JJP and even Stern animation quality levels.

#2402 1 year ago
Quoted from rosh:

While not all will agree, I think what we have done on Oktoberfest is better than what we did on Houdini.

In general, yes. Animations and art direction? Not even close. It's a crazy mishmash of colors and fonts and jerky animations that just looks bad. Houdini wasn't fabulous, but it had a charm to it and the goodwill that came with how fast it was put together.

Quoted from rosh:

I've had animators from multiple companies comment to me that they feel the criticism of our animations is out of line with what we have done, there is a lot of good stuff on our display

No way those animators were professional game animators/graphic artists, or they were drinking buddies blowing smoke. No one who does games for a living would say the criticism of what you've put on the screen is unwarranted. No one.

The most frustrating part is the art package can be fixed by just hiring a GOOD artist with experience in art direction specifically for games. It's not that expensive. But leaving things the way they are and adding some jiggle or sparkle or blur to existing art here or there isn't going to move the needle. Most of the art needs to be completely replaced to give the game a cohesive, professional look. It's nowhere close to that now.

I want AP to succeed, but denying there's a problem with the art and animations you're putting out isn't going to help get you there, especially when Stern is proficient to good, Spooky is catching on, and JJP is blowing production values out of the water. Last-place visuals are a hard sell on location, and that's what Oktoberfest has now.

#2408 1 year ago
Quoted from bobukcat:

You may not like his style but it's hard to say that he doesn't have experience with art direction for games:

A> Grayscale DMD
B> 23 years ago for the last credit
C> None of those are what I would call impressive work, even for the time, and a number were plain bad.
D> LCD high-res in color is a whole different ball game, and there's clearly a falling-short.

23 years is a long time. Look at that terrible Dave Christensen King Pin art for the Kingpin game. He did some amazing things in the past, but he's not up to snuff now. It LOOKS (only evaluating from what's seen in the game) like Oktoberfest art and art direction is in a similar place.

#2414 1 year ago
Quoted from bobukcat:

Not sure why Houdini doesn't show up there because he certainly did the art for that game. How does one go about getting things added or edited in an IPDB listing anyway?

We know he's doing AP stuff now, they were trying to point out that he has experience, but it's a LONG TIME ago and of dubious quality in essentially a different format then, too.

IPDB has been having server problems so lots of stuff is slow to be updated or has fallen through the cracks. This is probably one of them.

#2418 1 year ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Just my opinion: LCD screens don’t have to be filled with animations. There’s nothing wrong with simple presentations of useful information.
Still needs to look good and present well, but I’d rather see a game with solid information that looks nice than a lot of animation that doesn’t hit the mark.
I think people would rather wish for more than dislike what’s there, if that makes sense.
Curious how people feel about that.

I totally agree. Better art and more cohesive art direction is much preferred to more animation. Looking good is step one. Crawl before walking.

#2430 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

Guessing AP already has a lot of sunk cost into this LCD and don't want to redo it.
At the very least, for next time, get somebody at AP who can set a style or tell you something sucks early on?

ENFORCE a style. Setting is the easy part.

#2431 1 year ago
Quoted from bobukcat:

Yes, I was the one making the point that he does indeed have experience specifically in I LOVE the art package in Houdini, even the animations seem to fit well and the moving gears steam-punk scoring display is superb. I'm not an artist by any means so if there are "problems" with it I'm blissfully ignorant of them.

Houdini has a charm to it and I gave the clunky screen art and bare-bones art direction a pass. The art package on the cabinet and playfield was really nice.

Quoted from bobukcat:

I think OKT is visually fine from a printed art standpoint but do agree some of the animations could be much better, I don't think that would ever stop me from dumping money in one or seriously consider it for my collection though. Would be interesting to see a poll of how many pinheads notice these things versus those that don't, specifically the relatively minor artwork "issues" the same few seem to find in every game.

Oktoberfest cabinet package is all right. The art on screen is where it's off the rails. Too many ideas clashing and the fonts, colors, and animations are all over the place. You can't take a video of a crowd scene and add a filter to "cartoon-ize" it and have anything worth watching. It's ridiculous. More than anything it needed strict art direction rules and an experienced and talented artist to enforce them. It will be an ongoing problem if AP doesn't address it, and I hope they do because I want to see them succeed.