Thanks for listening Team AP! I think the sequence played when entering a tent of an Oktoberfest tent needs cleaned up. This is my favorite part and most authentic to Oktoberfest. I would like to see more of that! Not sure if it was blurred on purpose for rights etc? Also the left pinblade of the brewery sold with the machine is way to dark and all brown. I'ts hard to make out what it is. Something bright and festive like the right side to match would be a better balance? The Eurothrash music is whats holding me back. Be honest if you stick with the theme and played live music from an Oktoberfest tent with polka,cheering,mugs banging, bench stomping,and whistling by the crowd it would be a hit! Notice when that sequence of the tent and music comes on in the feeds the reaction of players bopping up and down getting in the mood just craving a beer. Oktoberfest is probably the best theme I can think of for a game but is let down by music and potential sound effects for call outs. Spend a few hours at Hofbrauhaus on a busy night and you get the drift. It's almost there bust lacks Gemutlichkeit!

Being a CGI artist myself for a global company I don't think the animations can be improved without scrapping them. I wouldn't have used CGI at all for this application and instead run video clips of the crowd around tents with some After Effects to add signage. I'm sure there are great videos out there. Also we do the weiner dog race here at Zinzinnati which would work as well. Much cheaper,quicker than building and animating all the stuff going on? No one can complain either. I played this game atleast 20 times and can't believe "Ein Prosit" is not sung or mentioned for call outs or a wizard mode? Bands are required to play this every hour at any Oktoberfest. Sicky socky hoy hoy hoy! The game play and deep rule set are probably one of the best, may surpass Simpsons Pinball Party?

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I have heard a few people complain about the game being sort of slow. I agree but it doesn't bother me at all because I like video games etc. However if there was a way to make the code so it is "optional"to have Otto and the tents select randomly for you to pick up the pace it would be cool! This would appeal to the steve Ritchie fans,add another variable for home owners to change things up, and I can see this fun in the adult version where perhaps Otto is drunk while making the selections.

I agree, I'm getting used to it watching all the streams online but its too prevalent. I say keep it but more limited to a mode or something. Everyone has there own taste but I like keeping to the theme. "We need more cowbell" the short spurts of it get muddled in and drowned out very quickly. I love that cowbell song at oktoberfest and would be great to last during the whole duck shot mode. Also there is no yodeling! That song from the Price is Right would be priceless for another tent mode.

10 hours! Haha, never gets old. I can see the cuckoo call playing after the ball drains.

Funny I was thinking I wanted a shaker but haven't seen this knocker? If anyone has a video of its use please post. Thanks

Wait a second. What has happened to the bumper car pop bumpers since LAX? This one has tie dye?

No, the figures riding the bumper cars were removed,not the cars themselves. Some people mentioned a mod for the cars. The pop bumper decoration is an american pinball trademark I thought like Houdini. This looks like a stern now?

Thanks, makes a big difference in the feel of the game after seeing regular bumpers. Hope AP continues doing this feature as a signature.

Hurricane had the original ducks!

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Thanks for posting a pinstadium picture finally. I thought this all along but hadn't seen any examples. Yes this game has some dark areas without it. Its a must when I get mine.

I can't seem to find the adjustment for the shaker in the settings?

I plan on buying pinstadium for mine after saving up. The playfield is very dark in front of the barrel and all the great artwork cant be seen. Thats the only way I see illuminating it evenly. I also plan to scroll animate them down the strip with yellow and white like a beer being poured during certain hits.

Never believe a word that idiot says. He also thinks the game stinks but a pin about a chocolate factory is the golden ticket. Wrong oompah, the polka oompah version is better.

I had that happen to me last week, they may want to come up with something for that spot?

Is there a good tutorial or stream out there on the rules? I still can't figure out stuff like lighting the tent etc? I guess when the code is finished it would make sense. This game is pretty deep and would love a good tutorial like they do on pinball arcade. Something for everyone to reference for owners and tournaments.

I just installed the new version,rebooted and I am pretty sure it was on main screen? than I installed the custom.png i wanted for the attract screen. Rebooted and now it keeps cycling through the boot screen over and over and this message in between? I cant play the game?

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Thx, I erased the message. It worked after rebooting several times. Fine now. Not sure what happened? Love the new version. Bumper car in non family is funny! Lightshow is great and the new festgrounds really ties in the theme better and otto's bar.
Only thing I noticed is I had a jackpot after the balls had drained from BB multiball. Long delay? Some shaker while riding the looper would b nice like the corkscrew. Well done! The new music makes me feel like Im in Munich!

The new code is fantastic! Thanks. One thing no one has mentioned is Rockin express. Its not very "rockin". When I accomplish the outer lanes nothing happens and almost wonder if it is even registering? A nice zingy lightshow like the ride would be nice here so I feel satisfied or a rollercoaster full of people sound like in Hurricane? Keep up the great work!

As they say " no news is good news" . I really love how you have developed this game in just the past 6 months! I would be nick picking at this point but if you wanted a couple ideas on how to amp this game up on the next update.
There are 2 songs missing from any "American Oktoberfest" that would be fun.
"Roll out the barrels! "
Maybe beer barrel multiball?
"Pennsylvania polka" always brings laughter in memory of Ground hog day!
When the cuckoo sounds to warn before the end of tent time maybe a cuckoo clock animation on the screen? That would be cool!

Thanks Erik! Oktoberfest festivals start next week around Cincinnati and go till first week of October so I'm going to be busy schuhplattlering. I'm setting a date for everyone to come over for brats and beer to play this pin.Oktoberfest is my favorite seasonal event, even over Christmas!

One more thing this game could use that owners with kids would love. The chicken dance song! Maybe the knocker or shaker kicks in during the clapping part? That would be something.Hahaha

Can someone tell me what length shooter rod is in Oktoberfest? I want to try and make one with a beer tap handle. Thanks.

Thank you! I never pulled one out and am going to buy a new one so I dont mess up the original. Not sure how its going to turn out but will let you know. New topper pictures coming tomorrow!

Anyone chime in if you agree or disagree, but the beer barrel lock on this game needs to be made easier by a stein or something else! We all know that ramp is not as smooth as we would want and its luck to get it in, it is what it is. But just to get the lock light to even get a chance to get a ball in is frustrating. If its going to be hard to make the ramp then atleast make it easier to lock the ball. Sure just light PROST. Sounds easy but when there is all the other stuff going on like tents,food,Oktoberfest,mystery,and tent its too much to handle. The barrel takes up 15% of the playfield and thats why people at bars drop quarters in,but if they cant get it in easier than forget it. I have owned this game for 3 months, I am dead middle in my pin league. I have barrel lock set to keep. I always play until I get a Beer barrel multiball. Tonight it took 1.5 hours? Thats crazy.

Yeah, "luck" wasn't the best word to use there.
Its hard as heck though and the barrel lock light just ads to the difficulty. In hindsight if there wasn't a barrel lock light at all made for this game people wouldnt complain. I always play till I get barrel multiball which is 45-55 minutes. If there was no light it would be 30-45 which makes more sense. I had several games that went 6 min and no barrel light? Thanks for the strategy tips! I didnt know about the orbit.

It takes me several games that go on 45min plus till I finally get all 3 balls in the barrel, with the balls set to keep between games. Thats too long for an average player and my pin is set up fine. I don't usually get the lock is lit till end of ball 2 or 3. With having to light oktoberfest for the coaster and other things going on at the same time waiting for a ball lock to light is way to hard. Perhaps its a strategy thing? I'll start keeping track and see if it is similiar to everyone else.

Not complaining about getting the ball into the beer barrel? I'm complaining about how difficult it is on top of that getting the lock is lit before getting it into the barrel.

Haha! Congrats, have me beat. Just in time too. Happy Oktoberfest!

I have never bought that complaint about the theme Oktoberfest.
Ok, elvira,haunted house, dracula etc aren't halloween?
As for original themes versus license. Most of the classics are like whitewater and whirlwind to name a few.

There is someone wearing this on the game playfield. Can you find waldo?

The Oktoberfest party with the league this weekend was great! I got out my old game of Fingerhakeln to play. Everyone had to try their strength to pull the weight as far as they could using 1 finger. Now if you really want to come out with a mod to sell in which a player can pull the plunger with resistance and it measures it on the screen I'd buy that for $$.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finger_pulling
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Yes, I cant wait to hear about the next game after Oktoberfest is over,of course I hope it never ends. The care that AP puts into the product makes me interested in buying another.

I've owned this game for months and still can't consistantly make it. I usually get 3 balls locked after an hour. Don't look at it as a reason to not buying the game, it's turned into a reason why I keep coming back and challenging for me.

I'm installing pinstadium lights and wonder what you recommend for the flasher connection 4v-24v? Apparently the shaker is the most common for these but it rarely goes off except for roller coaster. Is there anything for beer barrel lock or vox?

For Rockin Express have you tried the shaker for that mode in the next code? I was thinking it would make sense plus people who have pinstadiums hooked up to it for the flasher it would be a favorite tent to enter!

Pinstadium has a feature for a flash uv/glow. Although its not ideal for this game since there is nothing to glow it is a flashing effect that this game lacks to Metallica or Attack from Mars. I dont think it needs a flasher but would be nice to use it since its there. Rollercoaster, rockin express, or quak targets. To trigger it everyone is connecting to the shaker or connector since there isn't any flashers on the game. I heard 3 pinstadiums were installed by customers this week on Oktoberfest so its a popular mod. I bought it to cut off the glare and brighten the field.

I don't know how they could ever fix that but apparently on the list is a game play option that Otto randomly selects a stein for you changing it up everytime you play. I don't think there is much of a linear path as far as steins because if I change it up from the norm I find my self scoring other stuff that helps out in a situation. A random pick tent option also would change it up for home users.

Yeah 3 steins of the outlane ball save is my favorite goodey!

I just don't get it? Sounds like you have the entire game figured out with one path to take. Would you mind sharing it with us?

I'm having a problem with the coin door open menu, it won't go away?
Also the nuts that hold on the plastic cover to the high voltage won't go back on like a one way use? Who thought of this? It should be so simple. Is this why Im getting a coin door message? I had to cram a plastic screw in to hold it. There is no way they can be reused?

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Fixed,loose wire from the door switch.

No,no, just what was wondering what the best path is, I havn't figured it out yet. It seems it changes depending on the scenario like they said which is what I'm working on now. I think focusing more on the ducks may help my game out more.
Funny,anyone had this happen? The first day I got the game my friend Bobukat and I set the highest scores I have yet to beat. We didn't know what we were doing? Crazy.

He doesn't even play pinball deeply enough to understand a game or playability, just critiques everything like the art classes I took in college. Funny if Oktoberfest is the worst game theme coming from someone who bought a Magic Girl?

AP, on the next title or code update, the score bar on the top of the screen should be placed at the bottom of the screen so it is easier to see while playing. LCD screens are still new to the game of pinball and over the years details like this will be perfected.

It makes perfect sense. To me the score is more important information than the animations while playing. Having it on the bottom closer to the playfield they are in my line of sight. There really isnt a reason they should be on top? If you test it out I bet people would agree.

The next title is going to be a sequel called Mayfest, Pinball Uncorked. It has a similar mech as the barrel but the balls swirl around in a wooden looking tub like grape stomping. I think the delay is getting the music rights from Ryan Adams, Billy Joel and UB4O.

The update is impressive! Thank you. The game feels like it has more of a story to tell with the added characters. I'm especially glad the roller coaster animation was changed, that was a hard one to make look cool. The angled view is what makes it. Only problem is now the barrel lock looks shabby compared to it. Could do something like the coaster but instead of balls going into the barrel...monkeys. Barrel of monkeys!

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I finally had a chance to play many games on the new code and I am starting to feel like I am really at Oktoberfest!
Feedback:
The open bar door is too easy to get into now but thats fine I guess for game progression or location.
Are the flipper positions the same on stein race? Is there an option to reverse them? I would think the top should be the left.
The steins that I have picked up are hard to tell since the tag is the same color. The red before was nice or slightly gray out ones not chosen yet.
I've owned this game for 6 months and still havnt gotten to food coma. Maybe I'll dumb down the setting but I think its on easy already. Friend of mine did it once when I wasn't in the room.
After making the Rockin Express shot a fast light pattern on the playfield similiar to the volume levels in the animation would feel satisfactory.
For the Tilt animation in adult mode instead of the mugs can we see some jiggling of you know what behind the tray? Like Airplane!
Thanks for the update, Oktoberfest is now Gemutlichkeit!

Tilt warning animation and Otto says "she's starting to shimmy" LOL

Most of us agree, glad you picked an Oktoberfest up. I too am interested in whats next. I'll miss the originality the first 2 have but a fan layout with flow is what they need next to appeal to everyone. Still people out there that think they play clunky so they'll have to dumb it down for them.

My thoughts exactly!

Something I noticed when I play the food stand is the auto magnasave on the right loop grabs the ball everytime and robs me of calories. I am still trying to get a coma. It should be disingaged during food stand.

Never had that happen that I can recall?

There is no monkey in Harry Potter but perhaps the next game will be Project X?

I thought about making one but there just isnt anyway to fit something under that wireform. The cart almost touches.

Not sure but I have tapped the keg during rollercoaster multiball.

I noticed they were glued on offcenter on the bumpers and thats why it seemed possible. They would have to be pulled off and remounted in order to have clearance. Too much trouble for me.

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I just cracked 68 mil on this game. If anyone has got to this point you will feel like a god. It was like being one with the machine. I know it sounds like zen but it is very exhilerating. I felt like nothing could stop me and I could predict every shot. I only had 1 extra ball the whole time. I wish everyone the best of luck in 2020 and enjoy Gemutlichkeit year round. Oktoberfest is the best!

I could be wrong but when I got 2x the light went on. Later on during the same ball when I was going for 3x I did not see it on? Im sure it registered but that should stay on for players info.

I thought it stayed on so you know what bonus you have and going for next.
How is the new flipper adjustment part for beer barrel coming along?

AP has a fix for the flipper is what Josh said on the code update stream a few months ago. Dan told me about it also. I thought it would be ready by now? I'm not wanting to do a home made jerry rig from the previous posts. The fix has been tested and the shot is now 60% makeable. This has been a hang up for lots of people on the game.

It was mentioned above along with your post. AP is being quite on the whole thing?

Thanks for the update Josh, this is gold! Every complaint about this game on pinside having problems or being clunky will be no more.

Can you still hit the newton balls with this set up? I suppose so.

I just noticed Houdini is rated higher than Oktoberfest?

I second that,when I heard there was going to be some risque stuff on the release I was hoping for something more dirty.

When I went to the skyslide tent Inga says" Im thinking of something that rhyms with" than it stops. Am I missing the joke or is it cut off?
Also if you ever get in the business of making toppers a faux wood cuckoo clock doorway that goes off after time runs out would grab a lot of attention at pinshows! You can have my money now.

Can I get my coil stop through AP? I've been waiting over 3 weeks for GAP to ship mine and everyone else said they got theirs quick? I keep holding off people to come over and play till I have it updated.

I got this coil stop from T3quila because its been 4 weeks from Great american pinball. I don't think this is right,the holes are spaced further from the bend and I can't get the screw holes to line up? Anyone else have this before I call AP line?

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I need the new one that was put out for the flipper fix upper right. I'm not sure how it differs from the old one.

Thank you, we are contacting the distributer and waiting for a response. Not sure what is going on at GAP?

2 things I thought could be improved while playing Oktoberfest the other night. More opportunities to collect steins would be nice. Specifically if I hit the magnagrab on the top right flipper the bar door should open instead of staying closed. That way there are more options for that shot rather than going for beer barrel and the hammer strength. The second is the magnagrab above the lanes up top. Right now it just sort of stuns the ball and many times wings back around the ramp instead of giving the opportunity to get playfield multiplier. That magnet needs to act like the one in front of sparky on metallica. I am not sure if there is something in the adjustment menu for this particular magnet? Prost!

I'm going to check my level. A few times the ball gets slung back down the left outlane. Thx

Coil stop was easy install but when lowering the playfield something is pulling these 3 wires out and I dont know where they go?

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1 out of 3 i got, almost there. Does the this three wire go to the connector towards the back? Its a tight stretch! Last one is a 4 connector tied to the yellow/ black. Cant see where that goes?

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I betcha it goes next the other slot on the back panel. Man this thing really got caught up.

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Fixed! Thanks for trying to help. Take care! That was a close one

Had another fun game tonight at 6,899! If there is one thing I have learned this week during quarantine it is this. People are obsessed with themes and have no imagination. Three of the top four games are non licensed. In order to win a TWIPY you have to reskin Oktoberfest as Tiger King for anyone to pay attention to it.
Looking forward to the new code release during this sad time.

Thats good to know, I have been replacing mine and the new ones aren't shiny. I didn't know it was a good thing.

I was wondering about that before installing but someone said its the same? I havnt noticed on mine but I rarely go for the bar but shoot for the barrel. Perhaps I will change my game plan? I will say the ball seems to fly off the wire ramp to the barrel now often. Maybe I will dial the flipper back? Has anyone had to since updating?

Josh,
I have a few issues with the coding of Oktoberfest, I really hope they addressed this with the new update. For instance, My first stein collected was yours! Slosh Rosh Lager, I then played the tent and sent the ball 3 maybe even 4 times up the ramp! Still didn't get the tent win? I mean there is no way anyone is going to make this shot from the right flipper only more than 3 times to win the tent, even when you have a stein? Not fun even for amateurs.
2 weeks ago I was getting frustrated after owning this game after 11 months and wasn't getting anywhere. I dialed back everything to easy or extra easy on the menu and it started to be entertaining again. I hate to be on P*sy level but thats how it is in order to progress.
I loved listening to the Super Awesome Podcast that you mentioned this game was designed for bars and Houdini was too difficult. I think the problem with this game is not the art, layout, or theme but that no one in a bar (which this game was intended) after a drink or two or is going to be making any of these shots frequently enough to explore everything it has to offer.
Here is the number one quote review of this game. "I want to like this game".
Someone said that at Pincinnati last year out loud after playing it and it struck a cord with me and was exactly what I remember thinking myself after playing my first time. This is everyones first impression.
Josh you are genius when it comes to ideas and implementing into the theme, stuff I would have never thought of, but if the target audience is a bar with a few people having drinks or my friends who come over and have no experience in pinball it's not going to work. They flock to Metallica because they can hit Sparky and the tomb stones, hammer or snake mouth and feel they got pleasure from a multiball. That easy.
I recommend with the new code slicing everything in half so the default (operators normal)is what easy is now or more. To prove this, set up the game next to each other on location like the old days with extra easy and default next to each other and see what people have more fun playing. Filling 20 mugs in Tap It is hard enough even after collecting a stein. It's a tough line coding I get it. Too easy everyone walks away and too hard the same thing. I just think the setting need to be dialed back to draw a larger crowd. Especially for location and an average player like myself.
Take Care

Thanks Joe, I was under the impression winning tents created big points and winning them all was sort of the idea. I guess playing with the mindset that steins are just increasing scoring will help. Otto says "makes easier" I am under the impression its went for all the steins. I could swear Tap It can be accomplished with a stein rather than none at all. I do realize the Engler Pale Ale is valuable.
Luckily everything can be adjusted like you said but setting everything to easy and extra easy makes me feel like a wimp. Also if I have to adjust 14 different tent modes so they are possible to win thats a lot of figuring out specific play styles and not good for an operator. When Josh said Houdini was too difficult for most people the same can be said for Oktoberfest. In some tents its not challenging but frustrating. I played last night and sent 3 balls through the Looper "time limit using only the right flipper" and didn't win the tent? I was like you have to be freakin kiddin me.
Hopefully this stuff is improved with the next release. I would love to see a test done on this game with everything cut in half difficulty wise at a pin show and get peoples reactions compared to one out of the box. I think it would be plenty challenging enough. Thanks for clarifying, stay safe!

Yeah, having a line of 10 games playing at an expo right now doesn't sound too bad. Makes me miss it, hopefully "Oktober" in chicago will happen? It's too cold today to think of that anyway, how crazy is that!

You mean you played without having a drink! Whats it like?

Just wondering what happened to the next code update that has been do out? Coz reported it was coming over and over for months and still haven't heard anything after this long break to complete it? Thanks

I haven't been happy with the coil stop fix since I have had it. Before the ball always made it up the ramp and made it in the barrel. The new Coil Stop is never consistent. If I lower the flipper power its not enough to get it up the ramp. If I bring it up 1 click its too hard sometimes and flies off the ramp or makes it in just fine. About %50 of the time it flies off the rail onto the plastic or even behind Otto. There is no winning.
Also if i take the ball out from getting stuck I put it on the rails to go in the barrel like it should have done and gives me time to put the glass on. This messes everything up for some reason? It can't find the ball and then when it gives me one it thinks its a ball short. I have to shut the game off. It should register the ball if I set it to go in the barrel. from what I can tell new plastics would have to be mounted for the coil stop to work.

Thats not too hard,everyone says it will never get old with 14 tent modes! The rollercoaster and beer barrel shots are extremly satisfying. I have to warn you I think its sorta difficult or complicated for some people, it can also ne frustratung. Thats what keeps me coming back and makes me a better player though. If you are into flowy cinch games you may not like this. It requires strategy and shot skills.

Does anyone have a solution for this? Happens constantly, I may have to bend a plastic piece from the sign to get it to stay out.

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Thanks! I have the flipper power adjusted but still flies off. I'm going to bend that metal plate next.

Great game! Congrats, I don't think I will ever get that far.

I think there is a bug in the new code. When Inga says "Shall I juggle your balls for you?" I don't feel any tingling? Shouldn't the shaker motor go off? hint hint

Seriously now. When I am awarded the "playfield x" in mystery it doesnt light up the ferris wheel. I am not sure it is working?
After food stand the pretzel and stand graphic seems to have the stand name blocked out behind the pretzel. Have to play again to be sure, not a deal breaker.

I put them on mine and if you are in a dark place you need them! The different color won't do you any good, I got the warm white kit and the colors really pop! Iv had some problems with the lights sticking to the side art blades but I think it may be fixed now.

Is there an option to shorten the ball search time?
Often I find if I open the door during game play or get a ball that is stuck it totally messes the game up and it never figures itself out?

Tonight I opened the door, took the glass off to fix something right after ball 2 drained just before the ball spit out into the lane. When I put everything back and closed the door it took awhile for it to figure out that it had to do a ball search. It ejected the ball finally. The rest of the game it had problems realizing where the ball is. I finally turned off the game and restarted. Everything was fine then.
I have seen this issue always come up on this game. If a ball get stuck on the ramp into the barrel, if you put the ball into the barrel and start playing again it almost acts like it is short a ball and does searches? If this is common it will definitely hurt the chances of Oktoberfest to be used in tournaments.
Thanks

Anyone having a problem on the beer barrel ramp, I had this same problem that plagued me for 9 months. Check and make sure the metal plate near the entrance of the ramp that runs along side of the ramp hidden behind the barrel is secured. Mine had come undone and forced the ball in a different trajectory.

Thats practically impossible. Geez, great game!

Whats else is there to add? Ok,if you play in a dark arcade room like mine you need Neo Pinstadiums. The white diffused light brightens up the playfield like a bowling alley beautifully. Otherwise its sort of dark and you can't see all the stuff going on in the art. The flashing lights setting on roller coaster multiball is rewarding.

I"ll see what I can do this weekend, you need to have 2 hands, also the UV glow flash doesn't come out on video as well. I think I attached the clips to the vux but Scott at pinstadium can tell you.

Still gives me goosbumps when I see new ones,reminds me of that great day I got mine.

What! This is an outrage. I can't beleive it. It's like another year without Santa Claus. Luckily we have the game to fill the loss. Great marketing opportunity!

Some things I think should be addressed on the next update.
Scoring is too low. I played 6.5 minutes with a beer barrel multiball and my score was 438k, next game played 8.5 minutes and it was 338k.
The counter for how many times you need to complete a task is way too tiny. No one can read how many hits left for pop bumper car tent while playing. It should take up most of the screen or have a graph like Stern does.
Spelling Oktoberfest and Tent does little for me and I dont even bother with them since I don't notice it effecting my score much.
Playfield multiplier, I think I have gotten 3X maybe once in 3 years. It goes up to 5x? Good luck. Maybe a stein can double?
Sometimes when I play or if someone playing on location who doesnt know, there is a lul where there is nothing going on or what to shoot at, no tent lights or anything, needs to be some direction there. Otherwise I'm just smacking the ball until something lights up.
One of the reasons I bought this game was how cool there were ball save targets above the lanes but I feel they barely come in play or not sensitive enough? Nudging hasn't helped.
If the ball gets stuck on the barrel ramp it should be able to be placed in the barrel and not the shooter lane. Otherwise it looses track of balls.
I feel unless your score gets over 2 million or more the points than start to rack up all of a sudden.
Maybe I need to watch a tutorial but if I have a stein for a tent it should make it easier like less hits for bumper cars or less fill ups for tap it etc. Right now I don't notice much of a difference?
Thanks