Funny... I remember it another way. JJP had a known faulty design, knew their customers would be impacted by it, and instead of tackling the problem head on, required customers to wait to fail, and then would only ship them piece meal solutions... resulting in customers dealing with frustrations for years.. instead of wiping out the problem with broad strokes like anyone who really 'took care of customers' would.

funny... bet many people feel that way about coindoor remotes...

dunk (resized).jpg

Remember when everyone was harping on how LCDs will drive costs down for manufacturers... This topic is the front that everyone who focused on the material BOM just could not get through their head. Designing in a much deeper vivid canvas with high expectations on detail and integrated media is not quick, nor cheap!

If the ball is hitting the canon... something is wrong. Probably the wire routing.

The complaint on sttng is the shape of the slings DUE to the canons... not the canons themselves.

Right drains aren’t monsters on acdc

I LOL'd

The stories are old... but the Universal Monsters are their IP and they do control the rights to THOSE VERSIONS OF THE CHARACTERS.

So not 'all draculas' but 'their dracula'

Instead of thinking 'good' vs 'bad'...

Consider

"Adult" vs "Family"

And consider if your bashing tone is still appropriate.

I think you are blurring conversations... because if you follow what barry replied to, and the posts after.. that's not what you've said.

Again, you're inserting your own conclusions as if they were supported by the cites. They are not. Stop leaping.

Seems people have quickly forgotten JJP's 'radcal' program

Dude... barry replied to a guy asking for more cleavage... barry responds saying we plan on making an alt art package. Then, barry replied again with "The alternative art package will be more of an adult theme and therefore an option to the standard art package" - What more do you want? It's straight from the horse's mouth. Alt-art is about addressing different desires.. not 'upgrading to replace bad art'.

If you've paid attention, you've seen people like Josh saying they wanted more cleavage all along, and other commentary about the choices. Maybe they've just decided the demand is worth exploring based on feedback...

Or, its all an elaborate coverup like you've suggested, seeded long before reveal, and they plan on making people pay for alt-art as a way to address negative comments about a prototype game.

Place your bets...

We all remember KISS's impossible art right? And it was done by KConner...

Pinball art is full of distortions and things that just don't quite fit.

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Simple code patch for that at least...

and that was also woefully wishful thinking at the time

Official stein race beta testing bjsilverballs

It looks like octoberfest

His particular example is not a 'final' version of the game.. so cabinet/etc are not representative of the shipping product. So from that angle photos are pretty anti-climatic. But the playable portion of the game is all production level stuff.

Qualifying modes is easy.. and the mode start shot is readily available to the players. So if you kept the ball alive, you could go deep in the tents. Finishing modes is a different story

As it stands.. I wouldn't say change is 'needed' at this point.. tho maybe there could be some 'fun' boosts in its place. I didn't track it per say... but it looked like tent was enabled at game start.. possibly even ball start (which one assumes is just a easy/hard/etc setting). But whatever it is about the geometry of the game, the ball was always finding the inlanes, so I never had the "how do I get the ball over there!!" moment trying to qualify the tent.

Things I found more challenging were shooting otto except from the plunge... shooting the barrel ramp and getting a clean shot at the center food shot. We would still get some interesting ball spin outs on the tent scoop.. and I found myself avoiding shooting from the right flipper because hitting the post on the back-right of the tent shot was deadly.

A theme in my feedback was I wanted more player feedback to what was happening. Things specifically stood out were things like hitting the food drop target.. the ball saves.. or prost letters (especially in the mode where you shot for those.. missing by hitting the wrong letter should provide some feedback).

I'd also like to see more audible feedback to the player guiding them to something if they aren't really getting it. IE the 'taunt' or 'lead them to something' callout. If you aren't in a mode - it can be a little barren in knowing "what should I be doing?". More visual feedback when progress is made on a qualifier could help there as well (Example: think hitting aerosmith letters.. or spelling theatre.. you get audio and video feedback on what that progress is and what it does for you). So you don't always have to tell me what to do.. but if you give me hints about progress made during my flailing... seeing/hearing something interesting may make me go 'ooo.. I want more of that!'

Things like knowing the blue lights guide you through the modes was a concept that once explained, helped greatly, but that wasn't necessarily obvious upon walking up to the game. The magnet nabs, collects, and features aren't necessarily obvious when playing a few games either.

I walked up 'cold'.. not having watched any of the previous gameplay (just a few minutes worth..) to have an objective take on it. The items like responses and feedback I know will mature as ferret now has his unlimited live play time with the game

That's why it's wireforms and not solid ramps... they obscure nothing

We played the game for hours and it took an hour or two before I heard something that made me go “oh that must be what they were talking about from expo re:rock”

It really doesn’t stand out as rock all the time to me.. maybe it’s just the coaster mb when it really went rock? I don’t recall because honestly it didn’t stand out as something to bother me at all. I think people are over analyzing this element. Just try playing the game then sum up your thoughts.

It’s a bit like the warp ramp on sttng. You gotta find it.. and it takes a few games. It’s a tough shot, but not because it cheats you or anything.

Try when it gets all the way up to the top and the bend.. and then comes back. That hurts

It's steep... no lie. But it's not flawed - its a hard shot. That's allowed in pinball... but the original quoted armchair critic just wanted another bit to throw around to enlighten us all with about flaws in the game he knows, but no one else does yet.

When people are playing at a show on a brand new game... they have no time to get adjusted, learn the game, etc. It's not uncommon for games to be way less successful. Don't read into the ball times.

The game played like most others when we played it in private.

The rollercoaster girl would like a word with you... She hearts Pinball

Learning and practicing good budgeting and adherence to it is an example of a good company.

What you argue is just $5... do that for the multitude of decisions that impact a build and you'll end up unable to market what you want, at the price and margin you want.

If someone wants some plastic stick-ons.. go for it. I'd rather they cost out some figures than attack something not so trivial to change after the fact.

Otto is a target and hole
Just below him and wrapping around him to the left is a captive ball that rolls back over multiple points (think the strength meter kind of thing). It's drawn with art to suggest it measures how far you hit it.. but no idea what it actually does. I don't know if we ever hit it
The left orbit goes behind all this and feeds up to the rollovers. The orbit is accessible via the up/down ramp entrance to the left ramp

I just put up 2891000 and had a shot at starting all the tents... but the line was getting grumpy

Pingrapphix was ahead of the game and already has animated lighting versions of the topper and interior art blades.

Some different styles too.

Sober made is hhhaaarrrdddd

Probably just a setup issue with the game you were on. The left ramp is pretty easy to hit with a clean shot. I locked 3 balls right in a row and started MB for instance on a game I was playing. The barrel ramp is harder.. but gets easier once you get some practice. Think of it like the warp ramp on STTNG.. difficult, but trainable to get better.

What are you expecting? You say 'tone deaf' - other people see 'reality'.

Do you really expect them to go back and junk the entire visual platform and all the media assets now?

Do you want them to say "oh shit, we didn't realize that.. my bad"? They knew what they had, what you are talking about is the public RECEPTION to it. What outcome were you really hoping for before labeling them "tonedeaf"?

Well they are running a business... not a hobby project. They’ve been plenty honest in responding to people and listening to the feedback. But it’s a business... and stuff doesn’t happen for free in dollars or time. So one should consider the feasibility and practicality of something before slamming people for not doing it.

No, tone deaf is making choices or doing something WITHOUT AWARENESS. Downplaying or ignoring would be stubborn or dismissive.

They knew what they had.. they aren't blind to it. They've acknowledged the comments. They aren't blind to or obvious to any of it.

The question is if its worth spending on changing. Clearly their decision was 'no' and they've stuck with the same format they've had since the game's first public reveal... nearly SIX MONTHS ago.

Maybe it's time for people to catch on.. it's not radically changing!

pass...

Of all the issues with the art, I think this is by far the least worthy of mention. Conner's goofs with KISS and BKSOR are way more 'abnormal'.

My biggest beef with the media is it's a smorgasbord of styles with almost no rhyme or reason to shift from one presentation to another. Its like taking 5 different people in isolation and then merging at the end.

just because you can do something.. doesn't mean it will necessarily pay off

TLDR - people unwilling to learn will cling onto stereotypes until they die... because learning or changing is hard.

It’s better to argue till their blue in the face then spend 10mins learning how what they thought they knew isn’t the full picture.

At TPF there was so much 'umph' that several times I got a bounce back all the way from the top of the ramp back out. This sounds like a localized situation for you...

Palm it.. and it goes in nearly every time

Our local one is still struggling in its initial setup.

Balls from the food VUK seem to race down the rail of the connecting habittrail and fly out the left side instead of dropping into the habitrail to the inlane. The VUK just barely gets the ball over the top, so it's not VUK power. It looks like when it drops into the connecting habittrail it doesn't drop in.. rather rides the second rail.

The ball can get hungup on the shooter lane gate very easily for some reason... so soft plunges often lead to stuck balls with zero chance of ball search moving it as there are no coils around there (tho I don't think ball search will even go off)

Hard plunges often go to the target below the rotating gate... instead of into the bar hole.

The plunger spring seems super weak and unless you palm it.. no way to get the ball up near the bar at all on a plunge

Barrel ramp is impossible (and I've played a half a dozen different examples.. I know what is normal..)

This is a brand new game delivered in the last two weeks.. I don't think the owner has had a chance to try to dial it in.

rosh is the food drop target only pulled down by gravity? No spring?

The one here is not dropping unless pushed down. There is just no urge for the target to drop when hit

Thx ltg... it seemed obvious there should be a spring... but I could not see one in the diagram in the assembly manual... and nothing was found in the game. Now to look and see if the tab on the drop actually broke

Thx all for the answers. In hindsight, and a full desktop monitor.. I can find the spring in the assembly manual It wasn't obvious from the images when viewing on my phone (bring back real manuals!!) and couldn't find the parts table easily on the small screen.

The game has a slower pace... there is no “unleash the hounds!” Moment when balls and everything are just flowing faster than you can take it in that is common in many modern games. There is payoff in Octo... but there isn’t much in terms of “stomping on the gas” and everything goes into overdrive

No, he's just full of shit.. again

Go back and listen again, he's already changed the podcast.

Maybe someday people will catch on...

I see challenges at times with the TAP rollovers. The lights seem sluggish to change with the flipper action at certain times with lots going on.. and I've even seen rollovers ignored, especially after a magna-grab. For instance, a mag-grab that almost immediately drops the ball down the middle rollover and the rollover is not 'lit' afterwards. Thoughts Ferret ?

The 'did you call your distributor...' line is really a cop-out in how manufacturers are working these days.

What are manufacturers like AP doing to make their distributors a valid support channel?
- Are they stocking spares? Making it viable for distributors to do so?
- Are they getting training on the support and servicing of the product?
- Are they being provided documentation and materials to support the product?
- Do they have access to materials or support infrastructure beyond what the normal customer has?
- Do they have means to source RMAs or work existing tickets?

Manufacturers are not doing their part to make the distributors a valid tier 0/1 support avenue. Today it boils down to a simple 'vetting' of who is a customer or not.. and they can't do anything specific to actually rectifying support problems that involve product-specific stuff. Sure maybe that line works for the rec room buyer who doesn't know how to open the backbox... but for an actual service channel, all it is today is extra wasted time.. and more people in the process bogging it down.

If you want to use a ticket system... don't just dump it on the customers to be the ones to open tickets. When an agent answers the phone, or email, and it's something that will require more than a one-time interaction... you open a ticket for that customer and their case. You don't send them away and say open a ticket... and start over again.

Self-service ticket creation is not an excuse to not open tickets for customers... it's an EXTRA path for those who don't want to start with a live interaction.

knockerlover's examples should show you that the processes as they stand now are sub-par and not effective for his business. Instead of saying "ok, but we have XYZ...' reflect and understand how your XYZ isn't meeting the need of your customer.

You have an OS that needs to see the hardware
You have an OS that needs to successfully mount the filesystem
You have an application that is coded to look for files in a certain place

Where things commonly go wrong...
- Hardware compatibility of the USB stick... not such a big deal anymore, but not unheard of.
- Hardware compatibility of the USB stick with the linux drivers in use - happens because this isn't as uniform as it is on major consumer platforms like windows, etc
- Compatibility of the USB sticks formatting with the linux setup - probably most common.. since there are many variations people can use. From the partition table formats, to filesystem types, etc. This is the most common issue simply because there are the most variations
- Files not in the right place as the app expects them - probably second most common
- Files being bad - corruption due to bad download, bad copy, bad unmounting of volume, etc

Now.. add in the scenarios where you need to do a BOOTABLE USB stick.. and you get another set of fun. Because again, most of the configuration needed on the stick is not stuff commonly done by end users and isn't made front-and-center in their OS of choice. They have to use utilities, command line, etc.

The biggest issue is it's a fixed linux installation - which is not what most end-users are accustomed to and the utilities most end-users use are built to be so 'automagic' that they rarely expose the right controls.

I've found once I setup a USB stick with simple 4gig partition and fat32... I've not had any problems at all.. even with the $3 walmart USB stick I use.

Who do people call when the game doesn't work? It doesn't matter what the arrangement is.. they call the manufactuer.
Who does the licenser hold accountable when the terms of the agreement aren't enforced? The manufacturer...
What do you do when the game with your logo and name on it starts to be used in a way you don't support?
How much more work do you need to invest in the product to make the code base workable by others?
How much of your investment do you want to freely share with others that could take that work and apply it to other projects?

There are lots of reasons real commercial activities don't open up their code. And software licenses may give people a legal footing to protect their work from re-use, but its really hard to put the genie back in the bottle once the code is out there. And generally whenever you work with licensing or third parties, they want THEIR works protected too..

How many real contributors do you think would be out there for these proprietary software platforms? half dozen? If the companies needed help that bad, they could easily contract someone in, and get all the benefits with far less risks/negatives.

The problem in the real world is... customers and consumers don't respect that boundary. Even when its not your fault.. its still your fault. Especially risky when you are a young company. The damage to your reputation is too risky.

We all are free to our opinions - but we don't get to make up our own realities. So while you may not agree with those constraints, they don't go away.

Just wipe the plate with alcohol... that will clean off any wax residue. Test the door by hand by rolling a ball to it.