(Topic ID: 224963)

Joe Balcer confirms Oktoberfest as American Pinball's next pin.

By PismoArcade

8 months ago

Topic Stats

  • 2,941 posts
  • 379 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 22 hours ago by GrandFireball1
  • Topic is favorited by 62 Pinsiders


Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 341 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

D1516AEA-B0E5-485A-A2BC-83915F5BBAD5 (resized).jpeg
20190425_232226 (resized).jpg
20190513_163508 (resized).jpg
accordion (resized).png
3E2B63BC-BE90-4208-8871-3F1CE4869125 (resized).jpeg
2DF38354-4AE9-4308-BF05-B41E650C413F (resized).jpeg
BIG load.gif
84E7402A-EA28-4FFA-AA17-B0847B4A7298 (resized).jpeg
75A33F18-8EF8-41F6-B5C6-769DEFF64638 (resized).jpeg
BD31D589-2D45-4621-A21F-226DF50DA577 (resized).jpeg
20190426_205257 (resized).jpg
timthumb (resized).jpeg
snowflakes03 (resized).jpg
Oktoberfest 1 (resized).jpg

Topic index (key posts)

3 key posts have been marked in this topic

Post #928 Oktoberfest initial release pics and rule card pic Posted by PinballSTAR (7 months ago)

Post #1686 Updated (final?) Oktoberfest cabinet art Posted by HOOKED (4 months ago)

Post #1954 Link to 3/1/19 streaming video Posted by chuckwurt (78 days ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider delt31.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

#47 8 months ago

I think the theme has potential although I'm skeptical. I know from experience the fact I now own and love dialed in is enough for me to give this a chance. I'm excited to see what they can do bc they're a talented group. I'm not a Houdini fan but it's very impressive what they pulled off with basically no drama.

Best of luck guys

1 month later
#918 7 months ago

I'm impressed haven't seen full video but I already looked the theme.... It's beer and pinball what is there not to like and it has a lot of shots including my favorite 180 ramp. Attention gained from me on this one

#1070 7 months ago

A lot of posts on music....I can understand it not being in-line exactly but who in their right mind can listen to octoberfest (purely) for the entire game? What they did was great IMO

Add the theme of octoberfest into a rock meledy and then hit us with pure octoberfest for the modes! I think it's a great balance. If this was pure Octoberfest music throughout it would be bad.

Accents do sound pretty fake though. Animations are rougher but not nearly as bad as Houdini.

I'm still very interested in this Pin.

Off topic - as a former Alien owner and current Hobbit owner, those two are def the best audio/visual packages in pinball. I'm going Alien as #1 but that's maybe b/c I love Alien much more than Hobbit. They did an amazing job with Hobbit too.

#1077 7 months ago

that super left ramp shot - can you hit that outside of the lock shots for MB? Or is it just to lock the three balls which then come down the loopy loop wireforms? I hope you can hit that shot for one continous flowing shot back to the right flipper.

4 months later
#1966 78 days ago

been keeping this game on the radar and excited to see the updates which I just watched on the twitch stream. Thanks STDM!

Man I want to like this game. The shots and layout seem really fun but the audio and video package REALLY needs to be revisited. I actually didn't mind the old music but this new music package is really bad. As someone mentioned, generic rock to the max and there is def a main track I keep on hearing that really is painful. The fake german audio is really off putting too - it's so obviously off that I'm not sure if it's intended to be a joke? Either way, it just comes off as amateur. Finally the LCD - oh boy. The animation and overall quality really takes away from the experience. I really hope there is time to revisit that but I'm not holding my breath.

I for one would put mirrors on this as there is SO much going on art wise, adding more noise on the sides is really over the top.

I love the layout on this one though and those bumpers are very cool. It has a number of really nice loops too and many shots. I just feel the AV package is literally an anchor to this otherwise good looking game. Interested to see how it ends up.

#2032 76 days ago
Quoted from SDTMinSTL:

Despite the lazy narratives about the animations being sub par, I found them relevant, entertaining, and reasonably well done.

Despite the lazy narratives? Really? Not sure why you're trying to insult people who see things clearer than you. Sorry but if you think those animations are well done (or reasonably - whatever that means), I guess your standards are just lower than mine. The quality in animations is absolutely jarring for a game that costs 7k+. Let's not sugar coat this. I think this game does a lot of things right and I still have it on my radar but I'm very much hoping A/V gets settled.

#2034 76 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Have you seen the "animations" on a TWD or GB? Wtf are you talking about.

Is that a serious question? TWD is one of the best examples of dots out there. If AP is going to take this to the big leagues and use the LCD they can't play minor ball.... "ICE".

#2036 76 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

It's "dots" on TWD and my favorite pin. The LCD on Ocktoberfest blows away anything "dot" related.
WAY overblown on your part

You are absolutely out of your longhorn mind if you think the animations on Ocktoberfest are better than TWD dots - one of the greatest examples of dots on any game ever. I would take DOTS on TWD any day of the week over the amateur hour that is this games video package. If they can't pony up the cash to get it done right, I rather them just keep this a DMD game. I think they would be better off for it.

#2059 75 days ago
Quoted from SDTMinSTL:

Delt, it never was my intention to insult anyone, yourself included. I do feel that it is a lazy narrative though. Lets take your POTC that you love for instance, and I believe either own or have committed to. Is it difficult to have video assets put on a LCD from an existing IP? I'm not sure, but I doubt it. Are the animations outside of those licensed assets so stunning that you bought one? I am not picking on Pirates. I am just giving an example here. Getaway. I have owned it, you own it now. It has some of the worst dots ever made in my opinion, despite it being a great game. Do you go to the Getaway topics and scream holy hell about how bad the dots are? Probably not. I simply say it is a lazy narrative because it seems that it is being disproportionately chided for its LCD by people who seem to forgive other games that they own that never were purchased based on the quality of animations.
You are welcome to your opinion. I have mine as well. I simply do not feel the LCD is worthy of the malevolence and animosity that some show it.

There are opinions sure but are you trying to use JJP pirates as a game to compare to this one regarding quality of A/V? I'm sure you're not bc that would literally be insane. JJP is the example of how to make an lcd work in Pinball but I know you're already aware of this. Shout out to highway Pinball and alien as that is another great example of how to use an LCD well.

If were back to dots, I actually like the getaway and what it does. Great art style that captures the spirit of a game that came out in the early 90s. Nothing like comparing a 2019 game to one in a 1992.

Let me help you here a little. I think what you're trying to say is that you can tell the package isn't top tier but that's ok with you. I can understand that and have no issues but I would suggest you don't put down others but classifying them as lazy. I could continue this and label you with 7 different things right but I'm not going to. I'll just continue calling out like I've always done both positive and negative.

@bertodrink - you're exactly right. I'm not saying it's LCD only. I originally mentioned A/V package as that is really concerning right now and to me that is a big deal when playing pinball (IMO - others don't care but I do). I really like what I'm seeing from the gameplay/shots/layout which is why I'm actually even on this thread right now.

#2078 75 days ago
Quoted from SDTMinSTL:

7 things you could label me as? Really? Help yourself. I'm game. I find it funny that the phrase lazy narrative struck such a chord with you. If your thoughtful assessment requires a PM, feel free Pete.
I love JJP. See my collection. Pirates is the only game I wouldn't buy. I am not in the pirates thread screaming how much I dislike it. I just won't buy it. Then again, it's pretty apparent we have a different make up and sensibility, among other things.

No need to pm Pete I would just say it here buddy. Point is I'm not looking to insult people. When someone is using jjp as an example of a bad implementation of LCD use, it's almost embarrassing so not going to pile on right?

Make whatever point you want but watch the unnecessary insults. Go ahead and explain why Pirates is terrible in that thread. Who cares but use logic to support your opinion. That's what makes this place great. Insulting others well that's just being a dick.

#2082 75 days ago
Quoted from SDTMinSTL:

Reread my original point about JJP, that's intellectual property, (think stuff they already have drawn or movie clips!). I think you glazed over, rushed it, or didn't comprehend it, maybe all three. I don't want to take the time to spell out my point. If you didn't get it the first time, you won't the second, or third, etc. JJP has great animation and lcd work. My issue with the game is simply based on quality and its reliability. Shoots great, looks great. Awful theme, awful documented issues. I don't need to post it. Nearly everyone already has.
I hope they work the issues out. I'd buy one. Based on the fact they have shut down production on it leads me to believe that is pretty damned unlikely. It seems to me it would be like folding on a hand of cards. I'm just glad I wasnt sitting at the table on that deal.
We all have our likes and dislikes. Some people really stare at lcds and get upset when it isn't up to their standards I suppose. Myself, I look at game play and value. The only time I question much is ones credibility, opinions, or even mental well being, when he or she buys a virtual cabinet thinking it is some approximation of pinball. To each his own right?

It sounds like you have a hard time explaining yourself well but it seems my summary of what you were trying to say (maybe you missed that too) was spot on. That's great if you don't value animation quality - that's cool. Not a reason to dismiss valid concerns b/c of it though - but you have a podcast so you get it right? haha

As for pirates, I agree with the lower marks on theme (actually like just the generic feel) and the NIB issues are def more than they should. Agree there.

No love for virtual though? Sounds like someone has no experience with it or at least hasn't played it recently or both. That's cool too - if you have an opp to play a very nice one with the latest and greatest (like literally things just released), it would serve you well. Maybe something else to discuss on your podcast at the very least.

#2089 75 days ago
Quoted from spoke:

I'd like to know what you are smoking and where I can get some.
Sure, the animations are certainly not JJP, but from what I have seen so far, they are certainly better then pretty much any dots I have seen. Makes it hard to take you seriously when you make such an over the top statement like that.

Man are people just this literal? I mean cmon now folks let's put a little thought in it here.

See Vireland's response He summarized it perfectly.

#2125 73 days ago
Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

Thiel is a wizard; his work on Hobbit is breathtaking

Thiel is the BEST in the business. His work in Alien is unbelievable. I think he did POTC too and Hobbit fantastic.

#2167 70 days ago

Side art looks less busy which is a good thing. I'm excited to actually shoot it.

#2271 68 days ago
Quoted from balt:

Now that I've slept on it, I realize rosh addressed my biggest gripe about the Houdini code on Octoberfest and I hope he'll go back and do the same thing on Houdini. After a ball drains on Houdini, there's a long list of possible achievements showing how many of them were earned. If you had a short ball, you see a looooong list of zeros. That is so negative, I don't need to be reminded of how poorly I played. On Octoberfest, the list of achievements only shows what you accomplished. Positive reinforcement. No zeros shown. I earned a few steins and some ducks. Thank you Josh.

Yeah I think Josh called this the millennial bug. Now that's it's fixed, nothing but positive reinforcement and fifth place trophies for everyone! Haha

2 weeks later
#2378 48 days ago
Quoted from benheck:

Hilton and I sought out this game last night.
Layout is pretty fun, does feel a bit like Alien meets WOZ. The rollercoaster ball lock and release is awesome, the magnet that holds ball for upper right flipper is cool (should have an option for English voice countdown though). Playfield art looks fine in person. It feels properly packed like a JJP game or older Stern/BW.
LCD still awful. It's ugly, the text is small and the art style is a complete mishmash. Photorealistic people, then hand drawn people, then a badly animated CGI guy eating a sausage. Side view of rollercoaster cars with their fronts visible?
It's disappointing to see so much effort go into a playfield but so very little into animation and art.

I never thought about the alien reference but you're absolutely right. Flip ramp to the right, left ramp next to it, pop bumpers top right.....yes i know many pinballs are similar but alien is pretty unique - this seems to lend some from that. Interesting - never noticed. I always thought it looked interesting shot wise but a bummer to hear about the presentation still being so weak.

#2435 46 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

What are you expecting? You say 'tone deaf' - other people see 'reality'.
Do you really expect them to go back and junk the entire visual platform and all the media assets now?
Do you want them to say "oh shit, we didn't realize that.. my bad"? They knew what they had, what you are talking about is the public RECEPTION to it. What outcome were you really hoping for before labeling them "tonedeaf"?

It's the definition of 'tone deaf' when you downplay the obvious issue with animations. Maybe their impressed with flip book animation? Seriously, it's such an obvious problem that I'm not sure who these other animators are who thought otherwise but whatever they're working on, someone help them too.

#2451 45 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

No, tone deaf is making choices or doing something WITHOUT AWARENESS. Downplaying or ignoring would be stubborn or dismissive.
They knew what they had.. they aren't blind to it. They've acknowledged the comments. They aren't blind to or obvious to any of it.
The question is if its worth spending on changing. Clearly their decision was 'no' and they've stuck with the same format they've had since the game's first public reveal... nearly SIX MONTHS ago.
Maybe it's time for people to catch on.. it's not radically changing!

I hear you on this but I don't agree that they aren't blind to it. I really think they believe it's not bad and used these other animators to corroborate that thought. If they knew it was terrible, they would fix it. They think people are overreacting. They are not truly AWARE of how bad it is. Not sure how many different people need to call it out for that to happen. Tone deaf.

As for people needing to catch on - I will never support poor quality. What's frsutrating is I wish this game wouldn't be appealing otherwise b/c I woudln't even be talking to you about this right now. I wouldn't even care. However AP does a very good job in others areas that for someone like me, this absolute mess of a presentation really prevents me from purchasing this game. So I'm trying to help here, like many others b/c they're missing out on NIB sales.

btw - if AP determines they need to make their games cost 7500 to include proper/better animations and presentations, I would easily spend the extra 500. I think many would feel the same way. It's not a price thing (for me).

#2504 44 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Of all the issues with the art, I think this is by far the least worthy of mention. Conner's goofs with KISS and BKSOR are way more 'abnormal'.
My biggest beef with the media is it's a smorgasbord of styles with almost no rhyme or reason to shift from one presentation to another. Its like taking 5 different people in isolation and then merging at the end.

I would agree. Ben makes great points but all considering, I'll take the broken wrist thing all day long if that was the only issue they had with this presentation.

#2576 40 days ago

I think Black Knight looks about as dull as you get with pinball BUT people are out of their minds if they are complaining about the animations. Crazy to hear that

#2601 36 days ago
Quoted from Psw757:

Finally got to put some time on this yesterday.
My impressions on what I thought would be a great theme/game was a musical cluster f@#$& and felt like 10lbs of shit in a 5 lb bag. Video and animations weren’t spectacular either but they didn’t bother me.
Unfortunately don’t see myself adding this one to the collection.

Damn rather harsh but appreciate the no bs.

I hope to flip it this week and will repeat back. I really want to begin supporting this company as I think they're a bunch of really talented and hard working folks who listen to the forum.

#2633 35 days ago
Quoted from pipes:

I found the criticism mild and subdued. I guess it just depends on a persons level of sensitivity.

Pipes you're joking right or are you just dead inside at this point?

#2640 35 days ago
Quoted from drfrightner:

Octoberfest: review
This is the most honest review of the game you'll ever get. American Pinball is not going to stay in business if they keep making this odd ball themes because in a pincade, 90% of the players like Ghostbusters, a game here most people hate. People are drawn into the theme, not the features most of the time. A good exception is Dialed In, that game makes money, because from the naked eye its looks like a normal pinball game, but it looks like so much more fun!!!
Octoberfest is the most confusing theme I've ever seen... at first glance it looks like a BEER theme, but no wait its a carnival, its a party, no wait its I have no clue. Who would drink beer and ride a roller coaster? If you're trying to make a BEER themed pinball game, then make it an all out assault on BEER, make the topper something that holds a keg, with lines inside the machine so you can POUR a drink while playing. Make it a game every single bar and man cave would want, and market the game that way.
This is a game I'm thinking might sell 100 to 150 copies because of the theme itself. Now I'm hearing they will consider Robin Hood, NO WAY no ONE wants to play Robin Hood. American Pinball has shown the ability to produce a really beautiful game, they need to re-focus here on CHEAPER licenses like Halloween, Friday the 13th, Bill and Ted, something along those lines, a cheaper license so when they announce 750 copies not a copy more BOOM they sell out in 10 minutes.
How do you market Octoberfest, not to mention you're playing the game in April. Bad name, bad theme, and I think an overall financial disaster. The playfield is a cluttered mess while the game and all the mechs are fun, unique and different.
Now the good... they learned from Houdini, they made a game that is a lot of fun here. If they could step up the CGI graphics, license something interesting, these guys could be real players. These guys have the potential for a breakout but they need some better advice. Whomever is giving these guys advice isn't thinking for the hear and now or the long term.
I don't want to pay 7400 bucks for a confusing theme, a game that won't be collectable long term, just because the game is FUN, INTERESTING, DIFFERENT, because long term all games get boring. People buy and sell these games long term based on the theme.
The game is fun, its different, love what they did with the rails, just overall I think its the second best new game created this year... behind Wonka.
So yeah I think honestly its one of the most original and fun games probably released in several years, but the theme is terrible. Buy today for 7400 and 1 year from now sell for 5800.
I was tempted to buy one, because the game really is that much fun to play, but like all pinballs after a while you get bored of it... then you fall back on the THEME to find a buyer.
American Pinball could be the next BIG PLAYER but they will need to start looking at themes they could produce 500 to 1000 copies not games that might sell 200 copies. I think Octoberfest is a wasted game because at the box office its not going to produce a profit.
With all that being said Octoberfest won't ever sell itself, they will need to show the game to sell any, and most games usually just sell themselves.
American Pinball created one of the most fun games, I've ever seen, but the theme is going to kill them long term. Just my opinion.
I would say at this point American Pinball need to turn the corner, license something that appeals to 500 to 1000 buyers, take what they've learned from these first two games, and go after this industry. Because despite everything I said I think these guys have the most potential for a breakout.
One thing all companies need to understand is you must learn from your competition, and how many original themes have survived? How many times has Stern done an original theme? Jersey Jack a new company has made 5 games, with two more coming... 1 original theme 6 licensed.
Stern like everything is licensed but the new Black Knight.
Alien a company that failed, but people are paying 10k to get that game, not because the game because honestly the game is average its the theme.
American Pinball has the potential for a massive breakout but man they have to license something.

you lost me at Alien being an average game. Or maybe it was the first sentence of your post. Not sure haha

now back to making that awesome POTC mod!

#2654 35 days ago
Quoted from drfrightner:

We would disagree, they missed on a lot of stuff. The main Alien head is badly sculpted, a pinball shooter coming out of his mouth with a magnet on the end looks ridiculous. No attempt to add toys to add to the theme such as a couple aliens on the grids, or ripley in her robot mech, there was several opportunities missed there.
The game plays kind of clunky, shooting the ball is pointless.
I do however like the way they incorporated the movie assets, I like the screen in the playfield, I like the side art of the game showing the logo, there are things to like and things not to like.
The game to me seems like we're going for the GOLF but just ran out of money.
I like effort but not the final product.
Alien to me can be drastically improved if someone decided to pick up that license.

The game plays kind of clunky - shooting the ball is pointless?


#2668 35 days ago
Quoted from iceman44:

It will kill it on location. The dopey elitists are clueless as usual!

I agree that it's an easy sell and people would eat it up (initially). People are underrating the theme's appeal BIG time.

The problem is will they keep coming back.

#2739 31 days ago

Josh great job on kaneda. The modes you described sound great. Excited to play this finally

1 week later
#2790 23 days ago

About to finally get my hands on this game. Will report back with impressions tonight.

2 weeks later
#2892 5 days ago

I've held off on posting my impressions until playing it many times over a number of visits (@heliconbrewery) but I'm ready to share my thoughts.

+the game is built very well. It feels like a well made pinball game and you feel like you're getting your moneys worth

+it's packed with items, many cool features that really pop more in person than in pictures. I really like that keg, the pops, the ramps, etc

+although the animations are definitely not good, they aren't as bad when playing, mostly b/c you're not looking up. Sounds common sense but it's worth pointing out. Put it this way, I wouldn't pass on it JUST b/c of the animations but the animations DEF hold it back

+great unique layout that really seems to be something fresh. It's like a mix of Alien and WoZ.

+I went back and forth on this but i do like the theme considering the mix of beer and girls. Who doesn't like that? I really don't care for the carnival atmosphere though which is further weakened by the poor AV package.

+top right flipper shot is perfectly fine. Felt very good when it worked and was challenging enough but not unfair. No issues with hitting the big left ramp either - not sure what people are talking about. I was hitting it all day and I'm terrible.

+great use of magnets. Really liked how it would stop the ball for the top right flip.

- music. Wasn't feeling it. It's just so damn generic and doesn't speak to the player. This includes all music, during modes, end game, etc.

- Art - although in person the game does make a statement with how much is there, the art itself, including the showcased girl on the right side of the translite, just isn't attractive and takes away from the experience.

- the flip up ramp on the right is very tight. This shot doesn't need to be so tight either (see Alien) and I was hoping for something similar but not so much. Love that it's there though but it's just not a fun shot.

- Voices: Not good. I know apparently they have germans doing it but they come off comedic and not authentic.
Really takes away from the experience.

- Modes: I like the variety but the way the game is setup with the tents, stopping the action, it just kills the flow. Less is more here and the awful cut scene (that I know is temp but it's so bad, it shouldn't be there now) really doesn't help. This is where the art really hurts the game b/c I'm forced to watch these cut scenes and it really reminds you of the poor quality while playing the actual game reminds you of great quality. It's odd.

- Not enough use of that crazy corkscrew shot. I wanted to see more of it.

To summarize, I enjoyed my time playing it. I much prefer a game that plays fresh with poor art/audio/sound than stern's recent offerings of boring layouts, barren PFs but nice art and effects. I think it shoots well. It's just a missed opp in my mind. I really hope AP focuses on these sore spots in their next outing b/c to me they are succeeding in the more challenging aspects and completely failing in the easier ones.

#2931 1 day ago
Quoted from Ferret:

Thought about it, and probably won't do it... and you touch on the reason why in your next question. It's by design that Food Stand modes alternate between modestly lucrative and more lucrative... if a player wants to juice up the value of multiballs, they need to work the playfield a bit. It'd be less balanced if by random choice the player sometimes started off with a couple lucrative ones, or conversely started with both of the weaker ones.

Yes, in the upcoming code release, there's been a bunch of balancing of the Food Stand modes themselves -- both calories and points -- as well as the impact of calories on multiball values. I'm still not totally sure I'm satisfied with all of it -- it can all get complicated, especially when one or more multiball-value-boosting steins are in the mix -- but I think what's coming is better than the current production code, and if it still needs more tweaking, I'm on that.
Out of curiosity, can you tell me what kinds of ridiculous jackpot values you've seen? Just want to be sure your level of ridiculous is in line with what I'm expecting from the current code.

Completing all 4 duck standup targets advances Bonus X and lights Mystery. Three of them are readily player shootable; the fourth, hiding in the pop bumpers, requires some nudging prowess and/or some luck.

Yes, 10%, times the number of tent modes won on that ball.



Completing PROST relights all jackpot shots. If a ball(s) is locked in the Beer Barrel, completing PROST also resets the lock timer.

Yes, in the upcoming release.

Thanks, I believe we caught that one last week when we did a walkthrough / punch list of every feature in the game and the A/V assets we still need.

Ummm, hmmm, really? Thanks, we'll check that out. We tried to keep the colors consistent so players would know what each shot color meant when a bunch of stuff is stacked... so tent modes are blue, multiball jackpots are red, food stand modes are pinkish-purple, etc. When you win a tent mode, there is a distinctive fanfare and callout, and then the confetti stays on-screen, so we're hoping that players do understand when they've won a tent. Please let us know if that's not the case. The tent rules don't change once you're in victory laps.


Hmmm. I'll think about that one.


Me too! Keep your eyes peeled, we expect it's coming pretty soon...

Always appreciate how thorough ferret is regardless of game, he's always helping out on these boards. Thanks

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 7,395.00
Pinball Machine
Classic Game Rooms
Machine - For Trade
Canton, OH
$ 135.00
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Super Skill Shot Shop
$ 119.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
$ 7,399.00
Pinball Machine
Nitro Pinball Shop
Machine - Wanted
Massillon, OH
$ 7,399.00
Pinball Machine
Pinball Pro
$ 7,395.00
Pinball Machine
Great American Pinball
$ 399.95

You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider delt31.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside