(Topic ID: 224963)

Joe Balcer confirms Oktoberfest as American Pinball's next pin.

By PismoArcade

5 years ago


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-1
#1051 5 years ago
Quoted from Zablon:

Let's face it, the direction of LCD's so far is...less than stellar. It's not about DMD coming back, it's about that currently for the most part, the LCD direction looks cheap and unfinished (in the majority of games it is in). Sure it probably costs them more on the licensing side for clips of movies, etc -- but to me, those are cheap and easy and is a big turn off for many of the newer games. Dialed In is one of the few pins where I think it actually fits. Probably just the old school in me, and just an opinion, but we can do without the "just get over it" comments.

A few are clamoring for the DMD to come back. They (and you by your "we" comment) need to get over it.

#1052 5 years ago

Anyway - I think this game looks fun. Can't wait to try it out.

#1053 5 years ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

JJP is FAR ahead of all the other pinball manufacturers for video animation and UI. It's not even close. So, one manufacturer is killing it, the rest are languishing or don't care enough.

I agree with that 100%

But I also feel like LCD's are kind of lame. I never really look up to even appreciate the animations. So why would I want a company to charge me more for something I rarely look at? I wish companies can figure out a happy medium that saves us money but still is a useful feature.

#1054 5 years ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

JJP is FAR ahead of all the other pinball manufacturers for video animation and UI. It's not even close. So, one manufacturer is killing it, the rest are languishing or don't care enough.

Yup, 100%. WOZ came out over 5 years ago and still has better animations and display quality then LCD games from other manufactuers. Dialed In though blows everything out of the water with its animations. JJP is on a different level in the animation department.

#1055 5 years ago
Quoted from Captain-Flint:

I agree with that 100%
But I also feel like LCD's are kind of lame. I never really look up to even appreciate the animations. So why would I want a company to charge me more for something I rarely look at? I wish companies can figure out a happy medium that saves us money but still is a useful feature.

I dunno. I play 2 player enough that it's nice to watch what's happening on screen while the other player is playing. I also look up for some of the "pause breaks" for lock animations, etc. Having nice animation and a good UI is very important, but only JJP is taking it seriously in the LCD era, as far as I'm concerned.

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Yup, 100%. WOZ came out over 5 years ago and still has better animations and display quality then LCD games from other manufactuers. Dialed In though blows everything out of the water with its animations. JJP is on a different level in the animation department.

jjPotC is no slouch, either. The animation I point to always that really speaks to their creativity integrating the video into a theme is when multiball starts and they have the camera below the water and pinballs falling into the water like cannonballs. Impressive. There's no other word for it.

#1056 5 years ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

I dunno. I play 2 player enough that it's nice to watch what's happening on screen while the other player is playing. I also look up for some of the "pause breaks" for lock animations, etc. Having nice animation and a good UI is very important, but only JJP is taking it seriously in the LCD era, as far as I'm concerned.

jjPotC is no slouch, either. The animation I point to always that really speaks to their creativity integrating the video into a theme is when multiball starts and they have the camera below the water and pinballs falling into the water like cannonballs. Impressive. There's no other word for it.

Don't forget ACNC. Some of the best animations and LCD screen visuals in pinball today.

-2
#1057 5 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

Don't forget ACNC. Some of the best animations and LCD screen visuals in pinball today.

Meh. Amateurish integration with the UI. Some good ideas, but the execution isn't much over Stern level, and nowhere close to JJP's mastery of the form.

#1058 5 years ago
Quoted from IdahoRealtor:

Ugh. Stop encouraging manufacturers to charge more. Why do I have to keep saying this?

You actually think that comments on Pinside dictate pricing?

People talk big on the internet... but what really speaks is actually opening the wallet. If people pay, then manufacturers will continue to price high. And if manufacturers raise prices and people still pay, then prices will continue to rise.

This is not some mystery.

AP can say they'll price this game at $8.5K whether Pinside says that's a good idea or not. The only validation they need is in the cash box. Believe me, they wouldn't price high if cash wasn't arriving.

This isn't some "for the love of the hobby" situation. This is a business. Frankly, I don't think we've seen the ceiling on pricing yet. But what do I know. We'll all know when the ceiling arrives, because prices will stop going up.

22
#1059 5 years ago

A hand drawn art package is easily obtained for 10k. There is no excuse for a company with this much money behind it to release an art package this bad.

The LCD is even worse. Looks like a shareware AOL game from 1996. Who looked at this and said "This is fine".... Clearly no one. And for the love of God put some strokes or drop shadows on text! Your average graffiti artist knows better than this!

#1060 5 years ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

Meh. Amateurish integration with the UI. Some good ideas, but the execution isn't much over Stern level, and nowhere close to JJP's mastery of the form.

I disagree but that's cool. Still makes more of a visual impact than anything that Stern or AP is doing right now. I agree that JJP is at the top of the game as far as LCD integration goes, but it's also a bit confusing for players as well, especially if you're not familiar with the games. WoZ and TH are truly confusing. DI is much easier to understand, and isn't nearly as integral to understand progress of the game as WoZ and TH are. TBH, the cell phone is much more useful than the main screen is as far as progress and rules go but the main screen is very nice to look at. Haven't had enough time with POTC, but it seems to move towards a better mix of overly convoluted and overly simplistic. The artwork on ACNC is very nice. Yes the animations are "simplistic" but with that kind of artwork, you don't need to have 3D models or textures to make it look good. I would argue that it would take away from the general feel and consistency with the pf and cab artwork. It all blends in together very well.

#1061 5 years ago
Quoted from Sinestro:

LCD screens are not a fad, and DMD is not coming back.
Some of you need to get over this.

It's not about the display. It's about the art direction. So far, excellent pixel art is superior to the poor art, animation, fonts and composition of most of the LCD games so far. P3 is trying to sell itself as the evolution of pinball, but a normal person sees the art and animation and thinks it's some relic from 1995. My fiance saw Star Wars and thought the screen was confusing and horrible and compared it to a 90's CD-ROM (and she's a huge Star Wars fan). She thinks the DE SW dots are cooler and have more charm.

#1062 5 years ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

I think players will give AP a pass on poor animations and some of the bad art like Houdini and what's been shown on this one, but as they get more well-known and successful, they will have to improve the art and animation package. Buyers, especially, will not excuse it in the same way they have for a startup. Even if it bumps the price $200 (that's close to $400k extra budget), I think most people would pay it to get some professional art and animation. You can EASILY get a nice crew for a year for that kind of budget if you're shopping in some of the more depressed areas of Europe. I have a buddy that does AAA console games that has an immensely talented crew in Kiev he could never afford in the US.

Yeah I think these animations are acceptable given the theme. My issue is if you going to do a movie you have to do it like JJP. I have spent a lot of my professional life trying to deal with low cost studios and its not as easy as you think. We burned through a lot of them and in the end outsourcing never worked out. We ended up just buying a studio in Romania and things got a lot better.

When I say we I mean the company I work for.

#1063 5 years ago
Quoted from FatPanda:

I disagree but that's cool. Still makes more of a visual impact than anything that Stern or AP is doing right now. I agree that JJP is at the top of the game as far as LCD integration goes, but it's also a bit confusing for players as well, especially if you're not familiar with the games. WoZ and TH are truly confusing. DI is much easier to understand, and isn't nearly as integral to understand progress of the game as WoZ and TH are. TBH, the cell phone is much more useful than the main screen is as far as progress and rules go but the main screen is very nice to look at. Haven't had enough time with POTC, but it seems to move towards a better mix of overly convoluted and overly simplistic. The artwork on ACNC is very nice. Yes the animations are "simplistic" but with that kind of artwork, you don't need to have 3D models or textures to make it look good. I would argue that it would take away from the general feel and consistency with the pf and cab artwork. It all blends in together very well.

Agreed. Sometimes less is more...and when the artwork is appealing, that's absolutely fine for a pinball display. ACNC is clean and concise...the artwork is good and the motion-comic style totally works.

#1064 5 years ago

The layout is very cool. And looks well done and fun to shoot.

But it pretty much ends there. With this kind of theme they needed to really nail the art and LCD animations and music.
The integration of those three things combined. Is pretty much horrendous.

#1065 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

ACNC is clean and concise...the artwork is good and the motion-comic style totally works.

Thanks! I am going to discuss the process we took at one of my Portland Retro Gaming Expo panels.

#1066 5 years ago

The best sound and animation is on Alien....

And JJP is a distant 2nd

It’s a shame they didn’t make it

#1067 5 years ago
Quoted from colonel_caverne:

that is what I’m saying. The choice of the music seems to be destined to the US market, not European one.

I guess? I remember traveling to France back in the 80’s, and you always knew when a French artists song would come on the radio (pop radio) because at some point during the song - modern with electric guitars and synth riffs - the accordions would kick in. It never failed. When I was in France this year, I don’t think I heard one accordion. On the radio or off.

Definitely need oompah music in the game, as well as modern music. Are you telling me that contemporary bands don’t play Oktoberfest? And that all they have is traditional/polka music? If so that’s pretty antiquated.

#1068 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

The best sound and animation is on Alien....
And JJP is a distant 2nd
It’s a shame they didn’t make it

Will have to go with Hobbit myself after 2.96 and 2.97 (soon 3.0). David Thiel did an incredible job with the games sound and the 30 or so custom tracks from Two Steps from Hell are also nice. Alien is awesome too, another David Thiel game Wish there was one nearby to play, game looks awesome. It would have been cool, still would be, if JJP bought the rights to remake the game using JJP hardware.

#1069 5 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

A hand drawn art package is easily obtained for 10k. There is no excuse for a company with this much money behind it to release an art package this bad.

he LCD is even worse. Looks like a shareware AOL game from 1996. And for the love of God put some strokes or drop shadows on text! Your average graffiti artist knows better than this!

I didn't want to be this harsh, as cosmetically it could be made significantly less jarring with a few simple changes and be fairly *tolerable*, and I doubt they will now go back and completely re-do the whole thing ... but unfortunately I agree.

Also, $10k is really low-balling. Though I don't doubt it's perfectly possible and you can get some good results.

I suspect they're hoping to do more than the 1000 initial target for Houdini on this ....

... $25k for the art package over *just* 1000 machines is $25 per machine. If someone is refusing to justify that in the development cost / BOM, something is really wrong.

On the LCD, I think you're exaggerating a bit, and I think it will improve.

#1070 5 years ago

A lot of posts on music....I can understand it not being in-line exactly but who in their right mind can listen to octoberfest (purely) for the entire game? What they did was great IMO

Add the theme of octoberfest into a rock meledy and then hit us with pure octoberfest for the modes! I think it's a great balance. If this was pure Octoberfest music throughout it would be bad.

Accents do sound pretty fake though. Animations are rougher but not nearly as bad as Houdini.

I'm still very interested in this Pin.

Off topic - as a former Alien owner and current Hobbit owner, those two are def the best audio/visual packages in pinball. I'm going Alien as #1 but that's maybe b/c I love Alien much more than Hobbit. They did an amazing job with Hobbit too.

#1071 5 years ago

I appreciate everyone's comments and it's duly noted but let's get to the Brass facts.
How many Oktoberfest are at Expo?
What's the price going to be?
When is the release date?

#1072 5 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Thanks! I am going to discuss the process we took at one of my Portland Retro Gaming Expo panels.

Cool! Have fun! That's a great show...sorry to miss seeing you this year - gonna be in Portland in December, so sat out October this time.

#1073 5 years ago

Portland is a great show and I can at least read about Pinball Expo online while I'm here

#1075 5 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

LOL @ "brass facts"

Bone apple tea!

#1076 5 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

LOL @ "brass facts"

Well, this IS Chicago...wait, we're not talking about the band?

#1077 5 years ago

that super left ramp shot - can you hit that outside of the lock shots for MB? Or is it just to lock the three balls which then come down the loopy loop wireforms? I hope you can hit that shot for one continous flowing shot back to the right flipper.

#1078 5 years ago
Quoted from delt31:

that super left ramp shot - can you hit that outside of the lock shots for MB? Or is it just to lock the three balls which then come down the loopy loop wireforms? I hope you can hit that shot for one continous flowing shot back to the right flipper.

I agree. Such a cool ramp. Would be a waste if it’s solely for multi-ball release.

#1079 5 years ago

There is a mode where you shoot the left ramp, I saw it in the stream.

#1080 5 years ago
Quoted from delt31:

that super left ramp shot - can you hit that outside of the lock shots for MB? Or is it just to lock the three balls which then come down the loopy loop wireforms? I hope you can hit that shot for one continous flowing shot back to the right flipper.

Quoted from IdahoRealtor:

I agree. Such a cool ramp. Would be a waste if it’s solely for multi-ball release.

it looked like there was at least one mode that you could shoot it

#1081 5 years ago
Quoted from IdahoRealtor:

I agree. Such a cool ramp. Would be a waste if it’s solely for multi-ball release.

But you wouldn’t want every left ramp shot going through that wireform. Cool at first, but too slow. A couple of extra modes using it would be good.

#1082 5 years ago

On the music, I think 100% oompah music would be almost worse than metal oompa. Sounds like there is more variety to come - a blend of both makes sense.

#1083 5 years ago

Have no idea if this question has been answered elsewhere but it appears that the cabinet "back box" is a different design from Houdini. If I am correct in that assumption, is the overall height of this game the same as other games or has it increased?

#1084 5 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

But you wouldn’t want every left ramp shot going through that wireform. Cool at first, but too slow. A couple of extra modes using it would be good.

Agreed. Not sure if I have become impatient with age, but while I used to get excited watching the ball go in the ferris wheel in Comet or Cyclone (I don't remember which had it), I no longer feel that way and the thought of regularly having balls go through that long wireform would drive me crazy.

#1085 5 years ago

Started to watch deadflip stream...sorry but this metal music is unbearable for me.
I need to accept it, it is not for me.
if eventually AP changes his mind...

#1086 5 years ago

So happy they didn't go full on german music with that pin. As much as it is traditional, it is still a total torture for the ear, unless you're at your 4th gallon of beer.

#1087 5 years ago
Quoted from colonel_caverne:

Started to watch deadflip stream...sorry but this metal music is unbearable for me.
I need to accept it, it is not for me.
if eventually AP changes his mind...

The real question is can we change the music ourselves sort of like on Stern games or not?

#1088 5 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

The real question is can we change the music ourselves sort of like on Stern games or not?

Honestly with today's tech, this should just be a standard possibility on EVERY new pinball machine.

The 1 handed flipper buttons is awesome and I can't believe no one did this before. Does it have beer proofing on the glass seams?

#1089 5 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

The real question is can we change the music ourselves sort of like on Stern games or not?

I don’t know.
I had bought Metallica pin despite I hate that kind of music coz I knew I could replace the songs, what I did.
If I could do the same with this one, i think I would buy.

#1090 5 years ago
Quoted from colonel_caverne:

I don’t know.
I had bought Metallica pin despite I hate that kind of music coz I knew I could replace the songs, what I did.
If I could do the same with this one, i think I would buy.

Me too, we all have our own taste when it comes to pinball music...I think instead of trying to please everyone they should make it easy to update the music files ourselves.

#1091 5 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

Me too, we all have our own taste when it comes to pinball music...I think instead of trying to please everyone they should make it easy to update the music files ourselves.

100% agree.
The most important for them is to sell their game.

#1092 5 years ago

if i can listen to iron maiden music a whole entire game, I can listen to octoberfest music for 5 minutes!

#1093 5 years ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

jjPotC is no slouch, either. The animation I point to always that really speaks to their creativity integrating the video into a theme is when multiball starts and they have the camera below the water and pinballs falling into the water like cannonballs. Impressive. There's no other word for it.

But also jjPOTC was delayed a full year from announce to ship. This alone has really hurt sales for JJP. A scaled back pirates shipping a year sooner was likely a better idea in retrospect. Don't you think? Just from the view of making JJP profitable as possible.

I agree that Oktoberfest animations look pretty bad and distracting. Obviously they are showing stuff that's only 30% done (their words). So to this, why not wait and show the game in December when its ready to ship? Instead of feeling required to show anything_ based on an Expo schedule. I feel like it's a real trap feeling pressure to show stuff this unfinished. They just shouldn't show it until they are really done. If they need more opinions, get some alpha testers in, etc

#1094 5 years ago
Quoted from OnTheSnap:

But also jjPOTC was delayed a full year from announce to ship. This alone has really hurt sales for JJP. A scaled back pirates shipping a year sooner was likely a better idea in retrospect. Don't you think? Just from the view of making JJP profitable as possible.
I agree that Oktoberfest animations look pretty bad and distracting. Obviously they are showing stuff that's only 30% done (their words). So to this, why not wait and show the game in December when its ready to ship? Instead of feeling required to show anything_ based on an Expo schedule. I feel like it's a real trap feeling pressure to show stuff this unfinished. They just shouldn't show it until they are really done. If they need more opinions, get some alpha testers in, etc

But animations were not the problem with jjPotC delays. Many of the cool animations and UI flourishes were there when they announced it. jjPotCs delays were almost entirely hardware, and that's a totally different conversation.

#1095 5 years ago
Quoted from ccbiggsoo7:

if i can listen to iron maiden music a whole entire game, I can listen to octoberfest music for 5 minutes!

It is half the time currently as Rosh said.
Maybe it is paradoxal, but even if I hate Iron Maiden, i would prefer to listen to it then Oktobesfest coz Metal music on Oktoberfest theme Seems really antithetical in my opinion.

#1096 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

It's not about the display. It's about the art direction. So far, excellent pixel art is superior to the poor art, animation, fonts and composition of most of the LCD games so far. P3 is trying to sell itself as the evolution of pinball, but a normal person sees the art and animation and thinks it's some relic from 1995. My fiance saw Star Wars and thought the screen was confusing and horrible and compared it to a 90's CD-ROM (and she's a huge Star Wars fan). She thinks the DE SW dots are cooler and have more charm.

Remember when everyone was harping on how LCDs will drive costs down for manufacturers... This topic is the front that everyone who focused on the material BOM just could not get through their head. Designing in a much deeper vivid canvas with high expectations on detail and integrated media is not quick, nor cheap!

#1098 5 years ago
Quoted from Zablon:

Honestly with today's tech, this should just be a standard possibility on EVERY new pinball machine.
The 1 handed flipper buttons is awesome and I can't believe no one did this before. Does it have beer proofing on the glass seams?

What’s the 1 handed flipper button ?

#1099 5 years ago
Quoted from adol75:

What’s the 1 handed flipper button ?

The right side of the cab has 2 flipper buttons. You can set it so that you can play the game from just those 2 buttons and hold your beer with the other.

What I am not sure about is that since it has 2 user activated magnets as well, how they incorporated that to work with that setting....maybe hitting both buttons at the same time?

14
#1100 5 years ago

Speaking as someone who had actually art directed a pinball LCD my take is this: if you don't have a huge budget and talent on deck to try and do the JJP slot machine look then just don't try it. JP does amazing work for JJP, but it's just one approach, there's really no need to copy it. I frankly find those LCD screens too busy most of the time, it could be dialed back some easily.

Alien was a challenge since the company fell apart, we had no access to the game, etc, but I still think we delivered a pretty kick ass 1.0 animation package for it. On a shoestring budget, I can tell you that. If the game was still in production and we were being paid to keep updating it there's plenty I'd love to change and upgrade, but so it goes. We did it by coming up with some internal rules for how things would look, how we could disguise our limited assets, and how we could do justice to feeling immersed in the world of the game.

Alien aside, Alice Cooper has IMO the best indie LCD package so far IMO, really works well. It doesn't bite off more than it can chew, it stays true to the look of the game and theme, and uses creativity in place of doing too much. And that's IMO the magic secret, be creative and think about what you really need to show and how you can do it well, rather than falling down a '90s CD-ROM trap.

I don't really feel like giving away free ideas to anyone, but I've sketched up plenty of creative LCD uses that haven't been done before, and I'm sure I've only scratched the surface of what can be done. Just means caring and being creative. The message I'm hearing right now is "we don't really care", and you get what you get with that approach.

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