(Topic ID: 214634)

JJPOTC Updates for Production


By Hogbog

1 year ago



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  • Latest reply 11 months ago by Yelobird
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Topic index (key posts)

6 key posts have been marked in this topic

Post #593 The new artwork in high-res Posted by pinball_keefer (1 year ago)

Post #2454 Link to livestream of play on one of the first machines off the line Posted by solarvalue (1 year ago)

Post #2464 Picture of first jjPotCs on the line Posted by mountaingamer (1 year ago)

Post #2496 Link to Jack's "shipping" cartwheel for jjPotC. Posted by KingBW (1 year ago)

Post #2561 Comparison of prototype and final under playfields Posted by Join_The_Cirqus (1 year ago)


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#56 1 year ago

If they're changing them this late in the design cycle and almost 6 months after the launch, it's likely because they've tried very hard to make them work, but weren't happy with the results and took a pragmatic decision.

Half of pinside was saying the discs would never work and would potentially ruin the game when announced. Now it's the end of the world that it's being removed for reliability reasons? Come on.

Everyone was wowed by the pitching upper pf ... now the disc was the main feature? Really?

The chest change is definitely a good idea. The machine I played and every time I've seen it streamed there were good shots rejected, some of which would go SDTM. If as he suggests the change fixes this, then I can't see how it's not good.

As for cheaping out ... this remains by far the most ambitious machine since WOZ and still has so much interactive stuff going on. I'd be amazed if a similarly expensive Stern LE was anywhere close to half the BoM - even for the seemingly upgraded Iron Maiden LE. PotC is still the veritable kitchen sink.

Finally, features are cut or scaled back for reliability or cost reasons on all games. You're just actually witnessing the former here because JJP have decided to launch the games and test them publicly for months before they ship. How many machines have been half-arsed engineering or reliability wise lately, or if not physically then with code? Far too many.

-4
#78 1 year ago
Quoted from RandomGuyOffCL:

We pre ordered & bought into a premium priced product that was presented to us a certain way with no expectations that the final product would be nerfed.
Simple as that.

It's explicitly stated in their literature that "Game appearance and specifications subject to change without notice", and by definition nothing is final whilst they're still running prototypes (they are) rather than final engineering samples.

The notion that this is somehow a cheap, cost cut game is absolutely ludicrous, whwn you compare it to the competition - all of them.

-6
#134 1 year ago
Quoted from RandomGuyOffCL:

Ok. Well you got me on the fine print legal speak I guess...but you have to admit that no one was expecting major mechs to be revised to the point where one (the trunk) is now going to look broken stuck open.
I mean we have 2 games now with opening and closing trunks that cost far less.

It actually said it in big bold font on their site and promotional literature. Those chests are a different design. Cost saving would be negligible on that. There's no reason to change it except reliability / making the game better ... and from everything I've seen and played, rejected shots were a continuing problem.

#142 1 year ago

Agima2000 made this post on FlipperMarkt. German first - translated underneath. Sounds legit.

----

Die Scheiben an sich würden ja funktionieren.

Das Hauptproblem war jedoch die Übertragung von einem mini Zahnrad auf die Scheiben.
Jedes blockieren und durchdrehen führ dort unweigerlich zum zerstören des Zahnkranzes und damit war es das mit drehen.

Das hätte man von Grund auf mit Zahnriemen konstruieren müssen, etwas aufwendiger, dafür haltbarer.

------

The discs themselves would work.

The main problem, however, was the transmission of a mini gear to the discs.
Each block and spin inevitably lead to the destruction of the sprocket and that's what it was all about.

That would have had to be constructed from the ground up with toothed belts, something more elaborate, but more durable.

#281 1 year ago
Quoted from Ns2973:

I'm hoping they see the million dollars of revenue they will lose and double down to try and get it to work

For them to lose, say, $5m in revenue at $9k a pop, there'd have to be 555 cancellations. I seriously doubt that will manifest.

They're likely not announcing this change so close to production, and so long after launch because they haven't tried.

If the following (see below) is correct then there's almost no chance of getting it to work reliably, because it's highly unlikely they could fit a belt-drive drivetrain into the space available. Even if they could, the additional time to engineer and test this would likely be unacceptable to both buyers and JJP.

Quoted from rubberducks:

Agima2000 made this post on FlipperMarkt. German first - translated underneath. Sounds legit.
----
Die Scheiben an sich würden ja funktionieren.
Das Hauptproblem war jedoch die Übertragung von einem mini Zahnrad auf die Scheiben.
Jedes blockieren und durchdrehen führ dort unweigerlich zum zerstören des Zahnkranzes und damit war es das mit drehen.
Das hätte man von Grund auf mit Zahnriemen konstruieren müssen, etwas aufwendiger, dafür haltbarer.
------
The discs themselves would work.
The main problem, however, was the transmission of a mini gear to the discs.
Each block and spin inevitably lead to the destruction of the sprocket and that's what it was all about.
That would have had to be constructed from the ground up with toothed belts, something more elaborate, but more durable.

#286 1 year ago
Quoted from Ns2973:

The 88 people saying they will cancel their preorder is close to a million.
It's not like something of this nature cant be engineered. Use different materials, metal, carbon etc

I highly doubt even a majority of those 88 have one on order (it's a blind poll), and how many of those who do have actually called / emailed to cancel? For now, prior to their stream next week with the new setup, and with the decal art highly likely to change (at least I think so), it's a storm in a teacup.

The problem would be with the gears. Not the disks themselves. Per the post on FlipperMarkt that I quoted, if it's correct ... belt drive ain't happening.

They are however foolish for letting an obviously problematic mech drag on unresolved for so long. They probably felt that as DI orders were good, they'd just delay until it worked. Presumably they reached breaking point where they realised that they might never be able to make it reliable in its existing form, so something had to give.

#1060 1 year ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

5700 now for pro but yes le sld be compared to le....

PotC standard is going to have way more than Maiden LE though, and certainly BoM will be way, way higher ... and it's cheaper to buy.

Anyway, slightly off topic, but it's kind of a shame that DI or an original game like it didn't come sooner. Without it, TNA might not have happened, and Stern certainly wouldn't be doing an original Ritchie theme.

Given the license restrictions that have become apparent (including Zimmer probably road-blocking the music when Disney were fine with it), I wonder if JJP wish they'd done an original pirate theme.

If this started development after the success of DI, my bet is that it would have been.

It would have given them total creative freedom with art, sound and media, and anyone who's not a fan of PotC probably would have preferred it.

2 weeks later
#1483 1 year ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

If 9.5K a pop can't get that done, it may be time to reassess the practicality of many licensed themes.
Does the theme provide enough bang for the buck?

In light of the success of Dialed In and TNA?

Absolutely not in this case.

Moreover, I think a good, campy original pirate theme would blow PotC out of the water.

But this was in development for a long time ... possibly also part of a rights package from Disney, if they also have Toy Story & Muppets.

Maybe we can hope for an original vault edition of it, 10 years hence.

#1486 1 year ago
Quoted from screaminr:

Even without the actors there are that many clips from FIVE movies that you couldn't even get close to Potc by animating and filming your own scenes for a non licenced pirate pin. Just hope they didn't pay to much.

I doubt they'd film anything - possibly some green screen ... and of course you could re: graphics and animations. Literally everything has to fit a brief and then be approved for PotC.

Though they have a ton of video assets in already from the films, they're hardly memorable or bombastic ... the animations and effects on the other hand? They're far more visually arresting, and look absolutely awesome.

#1499 1 year ago
Quoted from frolic:

More an indictment to how bad the DI reveal was, and then how it became a sleeper hit.

The event was really bad, and terribly staged, but it was always going to take a while to get off the ground, given the original theme.

I think people's scepticism about original themes is pretty much gone now, though.

Dialed In is the second most important game of the 2010s for that reason, IMO - WOZ being the first (as it was the first of a new wave).

2 weeks later
#1787 1 year ago
Quoted from thewool:

Was that proven he did that to his wife? Do we know the full story, both sides?

Bunch of people including their housemate gave detailed accounts of what he supposedly did. It sounded fairly compelling. She dropped and opted for a settlement (which she gave to charity).

1 week later
#1929 1 year ago
Quoted from screaminr:

A little bird told me they are on the production line and will ship in August get the AUS possibly October and they've also made their last ever Hobbit

IMO this is true.

They were doing a final call in the UK for a reduced price.

Don't think Hobbit will have the legs that WOZ / DI have, plus an expensive license.

#1978 1 year ago
Quoted from Psw757:

More
If we don't hear something soon I think we can forget about August

I'd guess August is a cut off date they've set.

If it goes in much later than that, it could seriously impact the schedule for revealing and producing later titles.

Hardware wise, it seems pretty much done now. I think it's mainly software.

1 week later
#2036 1 year ago
Quoted from heni1977:

Wonder if the flow chart will be something you can view on the monitor? Either in game or in attract mode?

Pretty sure it is on all their games.

Been a feature in WOZ since pretty early in the code.

#2050 1 year ago

Metallica is still made, and they're easy to obtain. As are TSPPs, relatively.

However, probably best to wait to make the decision until you've played the production machine ... as with any purchase.

2 weeks later
#2172 1 year ago
Quoted from LTG:

The Chicago office is proud of the work they have done on programming for POTC and Hobbit, and have been showing it.
LTG : )

I'm not interested in Hobbit (mainly due to theme), but definitely enjoyed last week's stream.

Particularly as Ted generally keeps a lower profile than Keith or Eric.

Hope he'll be back on to talk about updated DI code when he has something to show on that front, if not before.

#2180 1 year ago

Best plan for JJP (IMO), is to have Pirates in production as soon as possible, and then have a huge update for DI ready to show at Expo (hopefully WOZ too), and maybe time a big PotC update to coincide.

Maybe tease something about future games, and talk about where the company is going and what it wants to do.

But showcase what they're selling and building, and draw sales for those. I think there are still huge numbers of both DI and WOZ that they can sell if they entice the punters. Emphasising the commitment to code would help that.

Wait for CES or early 2019 to show #5. Earlier and PotC gets horribly cannibalised.

3 weeks later
#2395 1 year ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

This is just a possibility but I don't think JJP or Kef said they are done with code when production starts. I think they worked on WOZ for years finalizing perfection. My guess is we have many new animations coming possibly even this cannon fire sequence which has been mentioned and requested dozens of times now. I suspect they are planning to make POTC their next multi year sale WOZ and Eric and Kef's history in the making. Could be wrong but I don't imagine they are close to a finished code just yet.

I'm sure there will be more bug fixing and polish, but I highly doubt PotC will be like either WOZ or even Hobbit. PotC will be by far their most finished game at launch - which is great, though obviously partly due to the late launch.

I'd be surprised if its not 99% finished a few months after launch.

#2405 1 year ago
Quoted from vireland:

Hoping they do better than the 8 months wasted on Dialed In re-inventing the wheel badly as playfields were screwed up. Not encouraged, but I'll reserve judgment until I see how it works out.

Dunno why you have such a bee in your bonnet about it. They screwed up their first try, then used Cliffy's product as standard. That would tend to suggest lesson learned.

It's not particularly hard or even particular to Cliffy - Mantis and at least a couple of suppliers in EU all make good ones too. Just needs some work and trial and error.

I highly doubt they mess it up a second time, and spinning this as bad news seems ludicrous.

#2439 1 year ago
Quoted from LTG:

It's starting. I talked to Jack today and he's getting me a game for tech support and asked if I'd do a launch party. Within the next two/three weeks.
LTG : )

Ask Rudysoup to come and stream it. Think he lives 20 minutes from you.

#2455 1 year ago

Those things must be costing a hell of a lot to build. So much stuff (and wiring!!) below the playfield ... and obviously above too.

I'd be amazed if they get away with a BoM and assembly cost that's not at least 2.5-3x a Stern LE on the Standard (not LE).

I feel like they'd have made their jobs easier and cheaper by never having the disk, never having an opening and closing trunk and removing the spinning bumpers. If people never knew about those features before they were removed, they wouldn't have missed them. The game has so much wow otherwise, I feel like they're just making their lives more difficult than they need to be. PotC really had the kitchen sink thrown at it ... more than WOZ IMO ... though at least they now have a much more rational board system and locations, in the backbox, rather than a *TON* of stuff in the bottom of the cabinet - so maybe they have found other savings and cheaper ways of doing things too (hopefully).

#2457 1 year ago

No. Nor have they removed the disc. I just think they're unnecessary effort when the machine is already so packed and expensive, and are fairly peripheral in terms of function or show. They're also likely to be the two most unreliable elements on the machine.

#2460 1 year ago

The point is, they don't really add anything at all ... except a tiny bit of ball movement, and potential unreliability. Without them it'd still be in a class of its own in terms of features and interactivity. Sure they'll be nice for customers, provided they're reliable ... but would a single person have said "this game doesn't have enough toys or trick bits or features ..." if it had been revealed without them? The omission of the disc would surely have sped their time to market by a number of months, and removed a huge amount of development time, while cutting the BoM and assembly costs a little.

Would I remove anything on WOZ, Hobbit or DI that seems superfluous or possibly problematic? Can't really think of much ... maybe the theatre magnet on DI. That's about it.

I just think they went too deep on PotC .. the 4th game shouldn't have been this much trouble and been so delayed, when it looked like they'd turned a corner on that with DI. Finished product is likely outstanding, but I don't think they needed to make it so hard to get there.

2 weeks later
#2804 1 year ago
Quoted from Psw757:

I hear you and agree. I just recall someone saying 20+ a week was their target with their lines.

I think the target once ramped was 15 per day, hoping for a little higher. First 2 or 3 weeks will be way slower though.

Pirates is so complex. They'll be checking they got everything right, refining the assembly process and analysing feedback from ops and distributors.

#2861 1 year ago

I really don't understand the angst about locations and distributors (for test) getting games in advance of early buyers.

They're the guinea pigs, so that you hopefully get the best tuned, trouble free games as soon as you set them up. They won't just be tweaking setup and assembly, but there will inevitably be fixes and small changes to the code based on early feedback.

You're in no way getting screwed.

#2863 1 year ago
Quoted from Psw757:

If they haven't gotten the kinks worked out over the last 11 months, there is a serious problem with how they do things.

That's not how the real world works, especially not on a machine this complex.

They've made constant minor changes. The production machines need to be tested by people who know what they're doing and who will give useful, timely feedback before they go out to home buyers.

1 month later
#3172 1 year ago
Quoted from pinball_keefer:

I'm sorry, it was just a couple of guys at the end of their workday who were sticking around and decided to do it on a lark. No plan to do it or anything. Please accept my sincere apology; no offense by having this impromptu event was intended.

More of it, please.

Joe's game turned out to be epic.

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