Quoted from PanzerFreak:
Still, JJP needs to make up the cost savings from these items in other areas.
Unless this happens, I'm seriously considering other options now.
He's so nonchalant about the whole thing. This is not a "tweak". This is the removal of the most innovative feature of your game and replacing it with the TMNT spinning pizza. Come on.
Perhaps the game costs more than what they had anticipated to manufacture. This will save them some money.
I have to say I'm definitely out right now. I can't help but feel cheated. This is not what I put my deposit on.
I appreciate the nice try on the video and presenting it in a way to attempt to soften the blow, but the fact is this is a huge fuck up. They know it. Let's not pretend that a shitty disc animation is any sort of consolation though.
Jack, if you see Gary wandering around, can you please ask him how he got his Aerosmith trunk to open and close? Thanks boss.
Quoted from Sinestro:
What does that matter to the customer when the end result is a mech that opens and closes versus one that does not? Especially when it’s priced significantly higher?
Yeah, they really need to either lower the price or add something to make up for all these downgrades.
I held off on a Dialed In all this time because of this game, that's what really pisses me off. Now I'm not so thrilled about giving JJP any of my money to be honest.
Quoted from Pinball-Pat:
I still want them to keep the vision of this pin from launch.
Step 1) Sell the pin at a reduced cost in its current form (with 2 reduced mechs).
This will satisfy the schedule and help JJP establish themselves as being able to meet timelines. This has been their largest criticism from this community and the industry at large.
Step 2) Work the engineering of these mechs and sell them next year as DIY installs for the game. They should be added to new sales in 2019 (similar to the backalley mods in WOZ RR at a premium) when they are available.
Chest) The chest should be relatively simple to fix with a solenoid and a mounting bracket. (Some physical mods to the chest).
Disc) The disc needs more time, but I think JJP could do it, just not in their current time-frame.
Eric's engineering is already coming in handy in a way, he engineered it to come out easily and be serviceable. This would allow early machine buyers with the pizza mech. to replace it with the triple spinner once the kinks are worked out.
Two messages for JJP:
Jack, don't give up trying to get your features. I can see you now doing cartwheels saying JJP games should blow the competition away. That was you Vision you had for JJP.
Investors, release the game now but continue to develop it to the dream it started as.
You realize that there's coding that goes along with the 3 disc mech right? It's not just as simple as swapping them out. What you're suggesting sounds like an absolute nightmare for JJP. Much worse than the nightmare they woke up to this morning.
Everyone saying that the increased reliability is enough consolation for the downgrade really need to re-watch the reveal and subsequent videos to see how big a deal the 3 discs actually were as a selling feature. The point is that you're not getting as much for the money anymore.
It's probably not all bad news for JJP as I'm sure this update video will help boost Dialed In sales a bit.
I have to re-watch all 5 movies but there must be a scene at some point where someone is seen eating a pizza. Can anyone confirm please?
So we're at the point of having to design this for them I guess? What a shit-fest this turned out to be. Unbelievable.
Quoted from arcadem:
I guess I will need to see how JJP responds to all of the critiques offered herein before deciding if I should cancel or not. I just sincerely hope they come up with a better plan than current version.
Well, Eric mentioned to someone at MGC that the cheese pizza disc is the final version. That was posted in one of the threads somewhere. Hoping for anything else is probably a waste of time.
If they had any concerns about this mech they should have been working on a plan B from the very beginning that at the very least could have been implemented into another game down the road. They're just throwing a last minute band aid on it which is what bothers me the most.
Quoted from drinkduffbeers:
» YouTube video
This stream was From 1st March 2018. See Eric’s comments at the 6 minute mark with regard the spinner reliability
Just makes no sense
It's not unreasonable to wonder if production cost is more than what they had anticipated. Obviously they would never admit to that. I personally think the update video is a bunch of BS.
Quoted from spinal:
JJP has proposed a cut and run solution: replace the most complex piece of hardware with a simple motor. Reasons given is that original design at high speeds is unreliable and too loud and a simple motor will be reliable and quieter. Since they are willing to make this very drastic move at any expense to their reputation, I'm assuming two things for now:
1. We're not getting the three disks spinning at high rate as originally proposed.
2. Although looking a bit suspicious right now, im still taking their word that the reason it's being cut is THAT IT DOESN'T WORK RELIABLY AT HIGH SPEED AND IS TOO LOUD.
Many good alternative solutions have been proposed. Here is a poll:
For me the obvious solution is that the hardware remain exactly as is EXCEPT that it's initial intended purpose be modified (just moving slowly now as a cool toy to show progress on lining up interlocking rings). Here are reasons why:
1. The device has been tested at high speed for a long time. So if it operated only at low speeds now, it will probably be the most reliable device ever made (if high speed was the main reliability issue).
2. Yes, we give up the fact that the rings put action on the ball but I'm OK with that. But remember that often not all 3 rings were rotating. In fact, when spinning fast one could not see much of anything and they weren't spinning that fast in the movie anyway. What was cool was SEEING the 3 rings. It's a cool piece of hardware that just looks cool! So, like most of us who voted, it's not a downgrade to have this piece of hardware stay as is just moving slowly, rings moving around slowly while playing.
3. What we gain is that this cool piece of hardware can now be tied even more into gameplay! Remember that each disk can be moved to any orientation by software and the game always knows the orientation of each disk. This allows for making shots that turn the discs on the playfield and the goal is to reach certain configurations for jackpots or finishing modes etc. certain shots could change directions of rings or pops could randomly change directions etc. Making lit shots turns a ring to left or right and you make shots to get rings aligned as you need - exactly like the puzzle theme of movie! In my view this is even better than having just spin a high speed where you can't see anything and does not add much to gameplay (except action on the ball).
4. JJP is obviously in rush mode now and are no longer willing to wait it out. This proposal of using the original hardware just at very slow speeds is best here. No changes needed at all - leave everything exactly as is - only code has to change. In the worst case ship the game with limited integrations as described in 3. and update code later - we will understand.
5. Quiet as a mouse if each ring only moving a bit here and there one or a few positions at a time.
It's not time to throw the baby out with the bath water here - the hardware is very cool even if not spinning at high speed. I have actually come to think it's better slower - to have it more integrated into gameplay, always visible because not blurred away and closer to movie movement, and now reliable and silent.
If the real reasons for completely cutting this hardware are indeed high speed reliability and it being too loud, then this low-speed original hardware solution checks all boxes and is the obvious way forward. We have voted on it as well (poll above) and the majority prefer this over replacing with the single stock motor.
If they don't go with this most obvious compromise then clearly we know that there are other reasons being kept from us and JJP are not being forthright here to their loyal supporters.
If there is anyone who doesn't think this is a good compromise (especially since zero changes to hardware have to be made), please post below and let's hash this out. We are cheering Eric and JJP on here and hope they make the right decisions for this game to reach its greatest potential!
I would go for this. Unfortunately, what are the chances that this wasn't discussed at some point already at JJP?
The problem is, right or wrong, JJP has tarnished their reputation with a lot of people here with the way the entire POTC thing has been handled. Whether people are justified in feeling slighted or not, the fact is this is not good for JJP. They really need put this one to bed somehow and really examine their marketing tactics going forward. This is not a one-off for them and it's time they learn from their past mistakes. This shit-hole that they find themselves in could have been avoided.
Quoted from screaminr:
That's Bullshit I have a $1500 non refundable deposit down that's why I'm so invested , my dealer is a top bloke so if I asked nicely I'm sure I could get my money back but he doesn't have to !
At the very least you should be able to move that to another game. Your distributor isn't on the hook for anything right now.
I've seen enough. I'm out. Still a nice game but it would bother me every time I'd look at that disc. On to something else.
I watched one of the past streams just to compare and it's a huge difference. Quite a downgrade.
Quoted from dontpanicflip:
This won't be the case at all. More than likely this REALLY won't affect sales. Maybe 100 people are upset enough to cancel orders? IF this affects sales... they will be less transparent about the engineering/manufacturing process going forward and avoid conversations like these entirely. JJP will still continue to make amazing machines that perform reliably. We'll just know less about how they got there.
They were only "transparent" because they had no choice. It's all about damage control now. Don't kid yourself about the "transparent" thing either. They sat around thinking of the best way to break the news to us whether it's true or not.
Quoted from romulusx:
What else do you expect them to do,when you realize you have a issue you feel can’t be fixed
Not a perfect world at all
Of course but some people make it out to be this genius business strategy on their part...like they're doing us this great service by being "transparent". Like I said previously, was their other option to just see if anyone notices?
Quoted from Tucks:
Wow. 17 pages on a spinning disc(s). Some people on here need to get a grip. It's still a great game that JJP are obviously making more reliable for their customers. Just a thought but why no give them some positive comments and help the people that create and further your hobby rather than shoot them down. Makes no sense to me.
So you're keeping your order then?
Can't wait for your review once you unbox it and set it up in your house. So excited for you!
Quoted from Tucks:
I didn't realize my post would upset so many people. I don't have one on order but have played it a number of times and its a great game, with or without a spinning disc.
Have to say, this is real first World problems stuff. It's only a game and you don't have to buy it. Moaning about the price is another ridiculous point. If you can't afford it don't buy it, easy as that. If people getting upset over buying a $9,000 toy, they need to re-evaluate their priorities in life. It's only money people, only money.
This doesn't seem to happen when any other manufacturer makes a change to their product pre release (Ford, Apple, Nike). People don't start demanding a price reduction. With domestic support like this, if I was JJP I'd start looking at manufacturing something else.
Must be great to be you. Never feeling disappointment or the need to ever complain about anything. What an awesome life.
This is trivial to you because you are not invested in any way with this product. Did you put a deposit on it right after the reveal? Have you been closely following their progress on the game since October? Watch the streams? Have you been waiting in anticipation for production to start on YOUR game?
Spare us with your sermon on first World problems if you don't mind. I guarantee that there's things you care about that I couldn't give two shits for. Does that make sense to you?
It's only money? Then give me some of yours.
Quoted from cosmokramer:
Damn, you are really out of touch...
Quoted from Tucks:
With reality? Probably not.
And an excellent judge of character with exceptional business sense to boot. Well done Sir! There's no fooling you.
Quoted from Tucks:
Answering some of the earlier posts, being from the UK I've met Andrew on a number of occasions, I've been round his factory (previous one I think when Full Throttle started) and played Alien at EAG London about a month ago. All good to report. Yes he does have other machines on site as he is a pinhead. As for production, he's is just starting to 'ramp up'. No one can start producing any product at top speed from the start. I'm sure he'll get loads of orders and give Stern/JJP something to think about. This is not negative as I love both Stern and JJP and it can only be good for Pinball. Really forward to hearing about game #3 Andrew..........
Quoted from brucipher:
Don't get me wrong, I think JJP really screwed up with discgate, but at the bottom of the flyer you got it says "*Specifications and Features Subject to Change".
I guess there's still time to "tweak" it some more.
This seems pretty reliable.
EDIT: Come on guys, take a joke. I'm sure they'll keep the LCD in the backbox.
Quoted from InfiniteLives:
so, for those who pre-ordered, did you get any sort of notification about the change or was the way you found out about it thru pinside?
Just curious if someone not on pinside maybe saw this at a show like TPF and made an order, and doesnt know about the change. what kind of shock that will be upon delivery.
Nope, no notification. All Pinside.
Honestly, I'm not sure how anyone not on Pinside would know about it. They're still handing out flyers with the 3 disc mech.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:
I feel like once people get over the personal hurt and affront they are feeling and actually play the game, the tide will turn back a bit and many will be back in.
Happens every time.
Absolutely, a lot of people will jump back on board. The problem I have is that although it's still a great game, it's hard to argue that this final version isn't somewhat of a downgrade and I just don't think I'd be able to be completely okay with that.
It's not all bad news for JJP. I've never wanted a Dialed In more than I do now. They'll still get my money at least.
Quoted from ViperJelly:
I appreciate is that POTC is very POTC, meaning that it would require some pretty significant changes to the toys to make it any other theme. IMDN on the other hand could have been anything (kind of wish that layout was used for Star Wars or GOTG). It really seems like Eric integrated the theme well into POTC.
That's one thing I really like about JJP games. You get a sense that the playfield was designed with that specific theme in mind. Many of Sterns games have a very generic feel to them on the other hand.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside