Pirates of the Caribbean
Jersey Jack, 2018
Pirates of the Caribbean (LE)
Jersey Jack, 2018You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider panzerfreak.
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Really appreciate the update. From a customer perspective it's a bummer to see features being removed yet the price remaining the same. I hope JJP makes up the cost savings, from having two less complex mechs, by adding to other areas of the game.
I still think POTC is one of the coolest looking pins ever create. The map award animations look of very high quality and blows away anything other manufacturers are creating.
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:Personally, very disappointed the 3 spinning wheels will be removed.
Had a lot of time on a prototype machine at banning. I inspected this mech playfield up a few times. I saw the biggest flaw was the nylon guides, felt they should be metal or bearings.
Sad to see this top notch feature removed.
Yeah, it's a bummer. The 3 disk spinning map is a main feature on the game and now is gone 
I will say this about the 3 spinning disks and that being they never seemed to really spin the ball more or any different (when in same direction at least) compared to just one disk. I'm glad the spinning map award concept will at least live on through the LCD.
Still, JJP needs to make up the cost savings from these items in other areas.
Quoted from pipes:Unless this happens, I'm seriously considering other options now.
Same here. $9500 is a huge amount of dough to spend on a pin but I've been willing to do it due to interactive features such as the 3x spinning disk and chest that opened. Now I'm on the fence.
Quoted from pipes:I have to say I'm definitely out right now. I can't help but feel cheated. This is not what I put my deposit on.
Harsh but perfectly understandable. The only reason I was fine with the game not having licensed music from the movies and in movie actor audio / actor video was due to interactive features like the 3x disk and chest...
Quoted from pinball_keefer:Chest is still a physical ball lock. Tying the chest movement to the fork diverter was causing untold grief and that's why the reason to decouple it was made. The shot into the chest is like butter now.
Thanks Keith, great to hear.
As I mentioned in another thread I think JJP needs to offer at least $500 in value now somewhere else in the game. They are going from offering a custom designed 3x spinning disk with 3 motors and LED's with a lot of software work behind it to something like below...
If JJP wants to get this game into production asap I don't expect any new mechs being put into the game. However, there's a few other things that could be done to appease customers.
1. Get rid of the apron decal and replace it with a wooden apron cover similar to WOZ with a nice clear coat and spot for a plaque with game number.
2. Lower the price of the game $500
3. Unlikely but include the ship in a bottle topper for LE owners and then add more to CE games
4. Powder coat the coin door and shooter on LE and CE games
JJP map disk 1
disk_2 (resized).JPG
JJP map disk 2
disk_1 (resized).JPG
Traditional spinning disk mech (from Tron in the case below)
disk_3 (resized).JPG
Quoted from Shapeshifter:Meanwhile, back at the Stern HQ...
Lol. Stern shouldn't get too excited as the new rotating map animations blow anything away that Stern has done on all of their LCD based games. Stern hasn't come close to offering animations at that level of quality.
Starts right at
One thing that can be overlooked when factoring the value of a game is the software development costs going into. JJP's Pirates easily has 3x, maybe 5x, the amount of software, animation and music work going into it compared to a traditional Stern game.
Posted this in another thread.
The new artwork on the spinning disk needs to GO! It's ugly and doesn't blend into the playfield artwork at all. JJP shouldn't even make it look like a map. I think a much better option would be to have it look like a hand drawn maelstrom with coloring that matches the rest of the playfield. Let the spinning map live on through the LCD but disassociate it from the spinning disk.
Quoted from spinal:Good idea. Another reason is that if the disks are now on the LCD, then players will be staring at two different looking versions of the disk which is a bit strange don't you think?
Yup! Leaving a decal to represent the map on the playfield will be a sad reminder of what once was.
Quoted from pipes:Everyone saying that the increased reliability is enough consolation for the downgrade really need to re-watch the reveal and subsequent videos to see how big a deal the 3 discs actually were as a selling feature. The point is that you're not getting as much for the money anymore.
Yup, spot on. That's the main issue. Many didn't have an issue with no movie actor audio and movie actor video or even the price due to unique features like the 3x spinning disk mech. Now that's gone and people are upset and rightfully so after watching and playing games with the feature for 6+ months.
Something needs to be done by JJP to make up for taking this feature out of the game.
Quoted from iceman44:It won't happen, but at least you've taken a break from your ridiculous Stern bashing thread posts.
Secondly, the whole idea of a CE is already in question now.
As for dropping the price? That's idiotic, people want the higher level of pinball, not a stripped down pro version. $$ isn't the issue, get it?
And now you have an option, just don't buy it.
All your whining isn't going to change a thing. Wait until the Wednesday stream and let's see what is going to be the path forward.
Hi iceman, I've had you on ignore for the past 6+ months due to your insults but thought that may have been you, lol.
What's considered Stern bashing? Criticising splitting cabinets, poor quality playfields, and waiting 12+ months for code updates? That's normal when spending upwards of $10k on NIB pins regardless of the manufacturer. I've complimented Stern a ton and last year bought a NIB Ghostbusters Premium and this past December a Star Wars LE. So stop with the fake news.
I also like my new Stern hat 
Stern is great!
Quoted from jar155:I'm not going to keep telling people not to be upset though. Big money in play with these things these days. Whatever tilts your scale is up to you. But as far as playability and maintenance goes, this is a positive step. It's just a bummer for aesthetic appeal.
Yeah good point. If map mechs started failing left and right 6 months down the road it would be a bigger headache.
I think the map award effect will be more impressive being on a 27" LCD versus on the playfield where only the player could really read it.
Quoted from vid1900:The chest is so lame.
How much money could it really save eliminating the operating lid?
I got this one at the Aquarium shop for $8, and the lid has been operating 24/7 for like nine years.
Well, have a fork ramp integrated with it, a ball lock mech, ball eject mech, make it so a pinball doesn't break it, then toss in something to automatically open and close it all in a relatively small area and it will become a much more complicated item quickly, lol.
Quoted from spinal:How many moving toys on this machine were there compared to now? (Let's give original spinning disk a weight of 3 and now 1). Ship=1, trunk from 1 to 0, anything else?
There's the ship which is a huge interactive toy, easily the most interactive mini playfield ever made, with a rocking playfield, canon that interacts with a lockdown bar button, shoots to a stationary ship across the playfield that recognizes different types of hits, and even has mini LED lit lamp posts. If we stopped there POTC already has more going on it then most pins.
There's also the "Tortuga Tom" spinning pirate, there's a magnet under the mode start area, two seperate subways (something about 5 entrances), Maelstrom ramp with hole and divertor, camera in the back box, mini outlane save areas plus all of the games molds, and now the big spinning disk. There's still a ton going on in JJP's POTC even with the new disk but it still is a big loss seeing that it was a main feature on the game.
Quoted from JY64:Overcomes this setback you need to hope JJP can stay afloat at these prices many are jumping ship
A spinning disk isn't going to be the end of JJP, will take a lot more then that!
Quoted from tiesmasc:Disappointing from many perspectives but from a support and ultimate user experience perspective likely the best choices.
That said the artwork in the disk area really needs work. It might even be better just leaving the artwork as it was (but removing words and lights, etc) similar to what is shown below or even just replacing with the compass style design would be much better than what was shown.I still look forward to playing this...
Yeah the new decal looks really bad, resembles a flattened pizza or flattened hash browns, not good. 1 huge spinning disk doesn't look that great either as the game was designed to have that area be made up 3 disks, not 1.
Quoted from Allibaster:If the disc is spinning frequently throughout gameplay, do the graphics really matter? It was really just a tan blur before.....
I hear ya there, the map award effect will have more of an impact being on the 27" display.
Quoted from DerGoetz:It only makes sense that they have the playfields already done and sitting in their warehouse.
We are stuck with that round giant hole, not fit to do either LCD screen nor 3 spinning discs next to each other...bummer.....
painted into a corner....
There appears to be more then enough room in the cutout for 3 smaller individual disks. I think that would look far more appealing and be more interactive then just a single giant disk.
Quoted from Skyemont:Why not use 3 disk and have them line up some how like the org?
YES! I think this is the ideal solution and would please nearly everyone. One giant disk looks out of place and doesn't appear to represent anything from the movies. 3 smaller disks that could fit within the same playfield cutout would mean no major playfield changes. Heck, this would probably be even better then the original design for customers seeing that the map would still live on through the LCD, 3 spinning disks could represent something entirely different adding yet another layer of depth to the game.
3 of these motors and disks could be used in a triangle configuration where the current disk is. A bracket that would hold all 3 would fill in the entire cutout area which could then be removed for easy serviceability.
Quoted from MK6PIN:I was one that did, and have emailed my cancellation...
Yeah, just read in one of the other threads about another Pinside member saying they just sent a cancellation email.
Quoted from solarvalue:Very poor mock-up of 3 discs (a-la-Whirlwind) with pointers for the award feature:
YES! That looks very nice and far more interesting and interactive then 1 giant disk.
Quoted from pipes:It's probably not all bad news for JJP as I'm sure this update video will help boost Dialed In sales a bit.
Yup, I'm almost 100% sure now that I'll be buying a Dialed In for my next pin instead of POTC. I was critical of Dialed In early on due to the theme but have slowly realized its one of the best themes out there as since its original everything could be integrated so well from the toys, callouts to the LCD animations. With Pirates I'll always have the issue of no movie actor audio / video not being in the game. Dialed In doesn't have that concern. Also, while Dialed In doesn't have 125+ modes the modes it does have feel more substantial, unique and meaningful then those currently in Pirates in my opinion.
Quoted from hockeymag8:Yup right there with ya. I feel badly for JJP/Eric as they will surly lose some sales on POTC and I want to seem them both do well. However if some pivot to DI at least JJP will get some funds in from that to help them absorb some of the financial hit.
Yeah, great point, more Dialed In sales will help JJP. They will get my money and that of others anyway, lol.
Quoted from arcadem:I have been looking at the posts over the last couple of days and I think that JJP has gotten a message that their current version ain't going to cut it with their adoring fans; whether they choose to do something about it remains to be seen. I still think PANZERFREAK's Maelstrom id (post #171) is the best that I've seen so far. It could be tied to operate when the ball drains down from the maelstrom into the lower play field and provide some added great action there plus adding another great tie-in to the movie. I guess I will need to see how JJP responds to all of the critiques offered herein before deciding if I should cancel or not. I just sincerely hope they come up with a better plan than current version.
Thanks! Yeah it would be cool to see the disk activate when the diverter on the maelstrom ramp activates like you said. There's no point in having the large single disk act like an inferior version of what once was which will be replicated virtually on the LCD. JP could probably design some really slick maelstrom animations that could take up the whole screen when the disk initially activates after the maelstrom ramp diverter activates. Hit the ramp, hold ball in the subway for a few seconds, play awesome animation on LCD with cool sound affects and then activate the disk.
Quoted from pipes:Well, Eric mentioned to someone at MGC that the cheese pizza disc is the final version. That was posted in one of the threads somewhere. Hoping for anything else is probably a waste of time.
That's why as of this time I've cancelled my pre-order. The replacement idea feels forced and out of place in part because the decal on the disk looks so out of place. The last live stream from 3 weeks ago still had the original 3x disk in it so the decision to move to a single disk appears to have been made relatively recently.
Quoted from Shapeshifter:Best idea so far that is possible in timeframe.
Could add some lightning inserts to create a thunderstorm effect.
Then have all playfield lighting go out so just the disc spinning with lighting and sound effects.
That would be an awesome effect.
Meant to post this in this thread.
If the mech wasn't reliable wouldn't that have been determined months ago? Shouldn't there have been test rigs / stations that just ran the 3x disk mech constantly and in different configurations a long time ago?
I know Stern does test stations for many of their mechs including the Ghostbusters Premium subway ramp with ball lock. Supposedly that was tested 300,000 times or something.
Change the decal from the pizza map to that of a maelstrom, implement some animations for the maelstrom disk, let the 3x map live on in the LCD and drop the price $500 across all models. That should please nearly everyone.
Quoted from drinkduffbeers:https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&autoplay=1&rel=0&v=yCihLzmv--0
This stream was From 1st March 2018. See Eric’s comments at the 6 minute mark with regard the spinner reliability
Just makes no sense
Yeah that makes it sound like the mech had been reliable.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:They made like 9 Police Academy movies bro...just saying
Yeah but those 9 police academy movies didn't even make 10% of what the 5 Pirates movies grossed...
Quoted from bgwilly31:Didnt i hear somebody say eric was due to appear on a certain podcast today>? I wonder if that appearance was cancelled>??
That's what Kaneda said the other day, not sure if its still happening.
Quoted from bgwilly31:Just reading into keefers comment. It doesnt shine a very good light on any chance of good reaction coming from the JJP team after this debacle. Seems like they are content with what they are doing
No, but I do know that the new map animations representing the 3x spinning disk on the LCD look considerably better then anything from other pinball manufacturers. While there is a sense of value lost in the terms of physical components there is still a single spinning disk and even more high quality code work that is being pumped into POTC.
Seeing the map explained by Eric in the SDTM video below (starts right at map part) really makes me realize just how cool of a toy it is and how much of a bummer that its no longer in the game...
If this change was done a month or two after the Expo reveal, ok fine. 6+ months though? That's a big part of why customers are upset.
The LCD map animations are awesome...but they will never replace the magic of a physical toy. Bummer
I just heard in the first few seconds of Kanedas latest pinball podcast that Eric asked him to postpone, the podcast had been scheduled for Monday morning apparently. Kaneda said that JJP "is clearly going through damage control and figuring out their next move".
Just a reminder, the stream starts today at 3pm central time. I'm looking forward to seeing the new mech in action and also how the code has developed over the past month.
Quoted from danastude:Stream at 3pm where? Is it video?
Twitch. I'm not sure about the channel name but JJP will likely post the link on their Facebook page.
Will it spin? Will it spin clockwise or counter clockwise. The suspense is terrible. I hope it will last!
Quoted from heni1977:Did that one already last year at pinball life party!!!
or at the 2014 Pinball Olympics!
The new spinning disk is well, a spinning disk. The effect works but isn't as random or as large of as an effect as the 3x disk. No longer seeing the chest open and close is a bummer too as in a stationary position it looked better closed.
I'll watch more of the video later once it's archived but as of now I'm leaning towards buying a Dialed In LE instead.
Quoted from maf-mi:After seeing the response to Tim Fife's chat, you could be a l little nicer to your customers. You're dead to me.
What was said?
JJP needs to at least consider adding the 3x disks back to the game but then pull the hardware out of it that allowed it to stop at specific spots. Perhaps that was the issue? If so let the 3 disks just spin, let the awards occur on screen (animations look great), and then the ball can still have the movement effects everyone had been used to. I think that would make nearly everyone happy.
It's not seeing the awards themselves line up on the disks line up that everyone is missing but rather the physical affect they had on the ball.
Quoted from J85M:I would love to know the reliability rate of the original mech, 50% in a home environment? I will take those odds at home!
Heck if I am aware of that and choose to continue with 3 disc spinner that's my issue, just sell me 2 extra/replacement mechs so I have spares at home, more money for JJP selling additional mechs which is a win, win for them and those that want to take the 3 disc spinner option.
That's a good idea. If the part that wears out after a while is just plastic / fairly cheap just offer replacements to customers.
The equivalent of what JJP with POTC to say The Hobbit would be "We have tweaked Smaug and he will no longer rotate or move his mouth due to long term reliablity". People would have been just as pissed off. Well, Hobbit owners have had their Smaug jaw motor die...but it's a $10 servo to replace! Since servo could die should the feature have been scrapped? No.
Quoted from LTG:If you looked at the original mechanism. Each ring had teeth around the perimeter that meshed with a gear on the motor. So you'd have to replace the whole ring and artwork on it. I doubt it would be cheap.
LTG : )
Good to know thanks. I wonder if the long term wear on those gears were part of the realibility issue. I can see that being a concern.
Comparison of new vs "old" side by side. The "old" game (old is in quotes as I think it looks better) looks more elegant with the 3x spinning disk, everything matches and the trunk I hate to say it looks better in the closed position by default. Hopefully the updated artwork on the new spinning disk ends up matching the rest of the game better.
I think POTC is having such a hard time with a feature being lost as it's the features themselves that originally got peoples attention. POTC cannot fall back on licensed music, actor audio and actor video being in the game. Licensed assets in a movie themed pinball machine at this price point are critical in my opinion. However, Pirates originally had enough cool features where the lack of certain licensed assets didn't matter to most buyers. Now that the story has changed a lot of buyers are on the fence or have cancelled.
It sounds like removing the single disk completely and replacing it with 3 magnets would be a better solution at this point. At least with 3 magnets the effect on the ball would be more noticeable and the disk area could be replaced with artwork that completely blends in with the rest of the playfield.
The single disk looks out of place, doesn't affect the ball that much and the artwork on / around it takes away from the rest of the playfields artwork in a bad way.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I feel we still haven't collectively moved onto Acceptance and closure.
We are past Anger but still in the Denial/Bargaining phase.
Lol. Yeah.
I've entered the acceptance and closure phase, have cancelled my POTC LE pre-order and will soon be ordering a Dialed In LE.
In the event the 3x spinning disks did fail there could be an option to disable it and allow the rewards to still occur on screen. Having the 3x spinning disks and map animations work together at the same time would have been pretty cool to see as a player and those watching.
Sigh...I was so close to the disks a few weeks back only to now never see them again
JJP is still going to sell many Pirates regardless of the change. Yeah the changes suck but it still has a pretty amazing ship toy and multiple other features including incredibly deep code, high quality HD animations and an excellent audio package.
Toys are only part of the puzzle that makes a pinball machine great, code is another and that's an area where JJP is leading the industry again. The more code the mode value we are getting out of these $8k, $9k, $10k+ pin purchases in my opinion.
Quoted from Ericpinballfan:Thats not true.
You want a Hobbitt?
How about one of each model, NIB?
I think WOZ, TH and Dialed In are all still going through cycles on the production line. I just ordered a Dialed In LE tonight and my distributor said he's able to get me a game coming off the line tomorrow.
Quoted from DCFAN:So, speed up Toy Story to the line sooner than maybe we expected then?
I wouldn't expect a Toy Story reveal until at least next years Texas Pinball Festival. There's no point revealing at Expo in the fall, well one of them or whatever is going on with that show, with Pirates likely just starting to ship a few months beforehand.
Quoted from brucipher:Don't get me wrong, I think JJP really screwed up with discgate, but at the bottom of the flyer you got it says "*Specifications and Features Subject to Change".
Yup, they tried and the game is still packed with a lot of cool stuff. I may consider buying one a year from now after seeing how the code develops and what fixes are implemented (if any) to early production games.
Quoted from Mike_J:It will be interesting to see where HUO prices are a year after delivery.
I recently picked up an HUO Smaug (No Radcals) for $6,200 and I would be surprised if JJPOTC drops that much.
That's a heck of an amazing deal on a Hobbit. I don't see Pirates dropping to that price as the layout seems more appealing to a greater number of buyers. I like the Hobbits layout but can see why some buyers would prefer the layout of Pirates.
Also, Hobbit sadly still doesn't have its final wizard mode and some final polish which I believe has negatively impacted the games resale value. Prices have recently been going up a bit. JJP keeps saying that the code updates are coming, Ted Estes on the JJP Google Group recently said he's been working on Hobbit code. However, POTC will likely have it's code further along upon release versus where Hobbit is today which as a Hobbit owner is frustrating to see.
Quoted from MrBally:Jack must be back in the Country.....
Yeah, could very well be. Jack really does care about his customers so I wouldn't be surprised if he's the one to say lets try and get the 3x spinning disk to work or be onboard for another solution.
From "This Week In Pinball" interview with Eric.
The three spinning discs were a very cool feature and it was easy to see you (and JJP) were excited about them. How difficult of a decision was it to remove them?
Removing them from the game was a very difficult decision. Hardest thing I’ve ever had to do at JJP. I am very passionate about the design, and have poured my heart and soul into this game. The triple spinning disk is the first ever mechansim for which I have my name on the patent. When push comes to shove though, the game has to be reliable first and foremost. Our testing proceedure here at JJP proved that it wasn’t, and unfortunately we are out of time.
Can you explain more about why the three discs were removed? Was it failing in long-term tests?
As was seen at several shows around the world, and in the shops of several of our distributors, the disks were not living long-term. It was not a cost issue and it was not code/programming.
Is it set in stone that it will now include just the one disc?
It is set in stone.
Is the design of new disc the same artwork that was in the movie?
It is the exact artwork out of the movie series.
You mentioned the colors will be changed to match the playfield better. Do you know how they will be changed?
Colors of the disk are going to be lightened up a bit. Looked like the red was coming through stronger than anything else, so it’s been pulled back a bit to better blend in and resemble the older color pallet of the original disk.
Will the colors on the CE be different than the LE and Standard?
Disk colors are the same on all 3 models.
Did coding the discs and rewards play into the decision at all?
We still want to and are going to display the random generated awards on the screen. It was an interesting feature that we definitely want.
Will the new disc spin in both directions or at different speeds?
The new disk will spin in both directions and at variable speeds. Hitting the map targets is what starts and changes the speed/direction of the map.
Will the late changes cause any delays in production?
The changes will not cause delays in production.
When can we expect these machines to start shipping?
Machines are shipping this summer. I am flying to NJ next month to help train the factory on how to assemble my game.
What month during the summer can we expect these to ship?
I don’t want to go on record with a firm date, but I plan on showing Jack how to actually do a cartwheel when my first game ships while I’m out there…
What podcast is Jack on?
To be fair I bet every other manufacturer would have scrapped the map idea entirely and not have spent the time / money re-creating it using high quality animations. Software = value and even though POTC no longer has the 3x spinning disk in it the game still has 3x the amount of software the the typical modern pin.
Update: I saw the reply below, thanks.
Quoted from iceman44:Prepare to be enlightened
In some respects, its the height of arrogance and taking customers for granted.
They RAISED the price AGAIN, and thus its on THEM to keep raising the bar and he's full of shit.
He brings NOTHING to the table now. Pat, Eric, Keith and team are what its all about. This guy is becoming a negative.
I don't think that's fair based on what Jack said in the interview. I just started listening and to be fair Jack does apologize right off the bat and says the days of JJP showing a game that isn't ready to be shipped are over. Jack also said the mechanism wasn't reliable to be put in games and they don't want another light board fiasco. He said he rather endure criticism right now to make a bullet proof game. Makes sense. Jack said pre-orders are not sales, well he's right. He also said he's respectful of his customers opinions, said the negative reactions come with the territory, etc. Jack also mentioned that the 3x disk will not be in a future version of POTC, maybe in another game one day if they can get it to work.
Good interview and feedback. Jack apologizes multiple times, takes responsibility and said JJP will do better. Time to give JJP a break and wait and see how the game turns out. I think POTC will stand on its own when all is said and done.
Jack brought up a good point about value in the interview and that being that 100's of hours of programming are going into POTC. Recreating the 3x spinning disk map on the LCD with high quality animations isn't a cheap or quick thing to do. I don't know how many manufacturers would do what JJP did, recreating a mech on screen, in the event it didn't work out on the playfield.
Hardware / parts on a game are only part of a games perceived value in my opinion. Rules, audio and animation work play a big part into justifying a games price. JJP has been on point with delivering high quality and unique animation, rules and audio work across all of their games. Hell, WOZ is still getting code updates 6 years after its release!
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Very cool!
Awesome! So glad they implemented that idea. It's coding work at that level that only JJP is doing. Very cool.
Quoted from Rockytop:- I think the spinning disk looks a lot better. I liked the action it created.
- The Star Map is really cool
- I like the wanted poster use of the camera for high scores....wasn’t that your idea panzerfreak?
Looking forward to my LE.
Haha, I did post about the wanted poster idea a few times in the past. I'm not sure if the JJP team had the idea already or saw one of my posts? It looks awesome and is a very cool animation feature. If they did get the idea from me I would feel honored, lol
Another great stream! POTC is starting to come across as a very complete game. It's cool seeing the games software expand each week with new things being added. The new apron artwork looks pretty slick, the orange tones should blend in well with the new map artwork as well as the backglass.
Quoted from Pimp77:Doubt it...well, maybe a little!
In any case, we all just want this game to be the best it can be. JJP is a company that seems to listen and react to its customers wants. Doesn’t hurt to try either way. Sometimes reading text can take on a different tone than speech. I think we all like the change in art, but prefer a color that doesn’t make the apron pop out from the rest of the game. If this is final it’s not the end of the world either.
My personal complaint about the game is the modes: none of them feel unique to me. There is 100+ modes but none that I’ve seen have any personality. Maybe that is present when playing the game in person? Hopefully, because at this point it seems to be just a stepping stone to the multiballs and not really unique experiences. Maybe the lack of video assets contribute to this feeling. In any case, I really like everything else about the game. Hope to play one in person soon!
Quoted from Psw757:Well said. All the multiballs and modes/chapters do feel the same and it has to be the video assets or the lack of assets that are specifically relevant to the movie/chapter you are playing. Not sure.
This game is very multiball heavy as well.
I agree. The multiballs and modes all feel similar due to the lack of licensed assets such as film actor audio and film actor video. There are 100+ modes but they are not on the same level of say Hobbit book modes that feature video and audio clips (with the actors) along with the audio "stingers" that David Theil added that are played when shots are made within a book mode.
In POTC I can get a mode called "Hello Poppet" and I see a vague video clip at the start with no actors from the film. There's no way to relate the 5 second clip and the shots to what is happening in the movie scene that the mode is based on. Same goes with multiballs with them all feeling similar as there's nothing visually, beyond the multiball intro videos, to make them unique. Imagine LOTR mode and multiballs without any film actor audio, no DMD animations based on the film, and replace all of it with a single animation that represents the film. That game would be nowhere near as immersive in the themes world as the pin we know today.
With all of that being set I think the lack of actor audio and actor film video isn't a deal breaker for many, including myself, as the game has a lot of other things going for it. The ruleset that Keith Johnson and the team created is very engaging, Erics layout is a blast to shoot, David Thiels custom music / audio is excellent, and JP's animation work is once again the best in the industry. Combine all of that with some cool toys plus the character abilities and you have one hell of an amazing and fun pin.
Not sure if this is true, mentioned in Alien thread, but supposedly Johnny Depp wanted $100k to use his audio and / or video from the films. If the fee was $100k for 1 film I can see saying no but for 5 films that's a "deal" considering the importance of the character.
Over 2,000 games that's only $50 per game and would have added heavily to immersing the player in the POTC world. JJP is likely saving at least $50 per game now by switching to a single disk on POTC and the trunk remaining open.
Again, can't confirm if this is true. It could have been $100k for audio but no video, only a few lines, assets from 1 movie, it wasn't $100k but really $1 million, who knows. I'm sure there's other costs to consider as well (having to pull those lines from the films, additional coding, etc).
Quoted from LTG:You left out a lot of stuff.
Depp's agents and attorneys get paid. JJP's attorneys get paid to do all the foot work.
Then what ever you use or add in, has to be approved by Disney. What if they say NO ? $100K plus costs and programming wasted and back to square one.
Then consider some if not all of the other 23 characters. What a F'ing nightmare.
This has been done to death in previous threads and posts.
LTG : )
Yup, all great points, didn't think of those. Sounds like there's a lot of stuff involved with licensing and it gets expensive quick.
Quoted from JY64:I keep hearing DI being called a hit I just don't see it being that neather the 150 CE or 2500 LE have sold out I would like to know what numbers are a hit a 1000 games 1500 game ?
After people actually got to play the game its received pretty much universal appraise with a lot of people calling it Pat Lawlors best game. It's a hit.
Quoted from EricHadley:My DILE #0583 was manufactured in Jan 2018
I got #24 and it was made 3 weeks ago so it seems like how LE games are numbered may be random, lol.
Quoted from JY64:I find it funny you use GOTG,SW,AERO as hits because as all three regularly get trashed on Pinside
Really? Seems like since the code was pretty much completed that the feedback regarding Star Wars has been great. GOTG has been hammered due to lack of actor audio callouts and a rather bare premium / LE offering. Aerosmith doesn't seem like it gets bashed, just that it doesn't get talked about a lot.
I would consider a pinball machine to be a hit if it's received near universal appraise since we don't have confirmed sales numbers. From Stern that would be ACDC, Metallica, and Star Trek to name a few. Batman 66, Walking Dead? No. Doesn't mean those games are bad but they haven't been as well received as the other 3 I mentioned. Maybe time will change that.
Quoted from dnaman:I'm only minutes into the latest stream (recorded) and finally found the answer to my first but long standing question regarding the single disc.
There is a filler ring which fills the gap from the playfield hole (from original tri-disc) to the edge of the single disc.
Watch the stream at the 00:08:29 mark, first ball and it hits the filler disc edge and roles down to the right side.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/259541173
Now this is not surprising as they would not likely have been able to create a new PF, clear it and populate it in this short period of time but my second and more important question is.... Will the production PFs have a smaller hole to rid us of this large filler disc. I just see that as problematic (wear wise).
I am still in on this pin to date but this I need to know before committing to delivery.
Very good observation and question! If dozens of playfields have already been ordered (or even received) then its likely they will have the filler disk. The question then is will playfields down the road for later build games not have the filler part and instead be wood in that area?
Quoted from pinball_keefer:No shipped games will have filled in playfields.
Yeah! Great to hear Thanks Keith.
Quoted from Psw757:Why is there no reference to Rum anywhere in the game? We are talking Pirates aren't we?
Eric mentioned this in a past stream. Disney said no references to alcohol could be made in the game...Eric thought or told Disney "Have you seen these movies"? What a stupid licensing restriction by Disney considering that all 5 films have at least a few references to rum in them. Same thing applied to guns and that's why the spinning pirate toy is holding a sword versus a gun.
Quoted from ViperJelly:Sounds like they have one more voice session with Gibbs (mentioned in the last twitch feed) so we could hear a few new phrases, may add a little more pirate humor.
That's great to hear! Some more callouts specific to each chapter mode and multiball would be nice to hear. Without the actor audio and video the modes and multiballs feel pretty similar in my opinion. Having Gibbs callouts that would tell the player what is going on in the movie scene as shots are made would add a lot to the game in my opinion.
For example during the rescue Elizabeth mode it would be cool to hear Gibbs say "Shoot the right orbit to save Elizabeth". Stuff like that.
Watched the latest stream and Pirates really seems to be coming across as a complete game at this point. The character select feature is awesome and opens up a ton of stragedy options for players. Yes it's a bummer that there's no actor audio and no actor video but I think the JJP team has done an incredible job making up for that in the terms of unique software, rules, music and animation features.
Quoted from Pmaino:Question around call outs for modes. When in a mode and you hit one of the required shots, is there a generic sound that is made to let you know you hit the shot or is it different depending on the shot/character/mode?
If its generic right now, are there plans to add more call outs?
I know there are a ton of modes for each chapter, just curious how unique each one will be or is it just to hit different shots around the playfield.
Game looks great...keep up the good work.
Just watched some of the latest stream again and I believe I heard some callouts like "well done" and "well played" for collecting a character.
Personally I would like to see JJP record character collected callouts with Kevin McNally during their final recording session. There's 22 characters in the game that can be selected as well as collected during chapter modes. With no actor audio and actor video in the game due to licensing restrictions I think there needs to be something added to at least relate the shots being made in a chapter mode to the characters.
Having custom Gibbs callouts for each character as they are collected would really help incorporate the characters more into gameplay and add to the games POTC world under glass feeling. For example if you need to collect Jack you would hear Gibbs say "Jack Collected", for Elizabeth "Elizabeth Collected". Maybe have a few different versions for each character to keep things from becoming stale. Could have "Ms. Swan" collected during a Black Pearl mode but for the movie where she's a captain have the callout be "Captain Swan" collected.
Quoted from DCFAN:I'm done with commenting on value. worn out
I hope JJP is successful, but
Here's a pic close up of the black powder coat on a prototype game. The powder coat has a nice texture to it and resembles the finish of a canon which I think is on purpose considering the theme. Personally I rather have this type of finish versus a glossy finish on POTC. It's pretty nice.
Twitch archive of today's stream is up! The game just keeps looking better and better. I originally backed out and bought a Dialed In, which is absolutely incredible, and now just pre-ordered Pirates again, lol. I can't get enough of these JJP games.
Quoted from GravitaR:No ball save for start of wizard mode? Really?
I hope eventually there will be. I think the wizard mode for movie 5 was just recently added so maybe its not complete yet.
I don't understand either just replicating something on the backglass as the topper. LE games are typically purchased by home buyers so why not give them something unique that at least isn't already on the backglass? How about two laser etched canons facing each other or a laser etched Black Pearl ship?
Instead of the LE topper as it is I rather see a metal lockdown bar plate, a high quality hammered powder coat like on Hobbit, or a set of LED's that light up the Pirates logo already on the backglass that can interact with the game. However, I also want to see these games start shipping asap so no more changes at this point is probably a good thing, lol.
JJP does a great job at explaining their games rules either on screen or using rule flow charts. I really like the ruleflow chart below for Dialed In that is updated as a modes are changed / added. It would be nice to see rules for modes explained in detail in the physical manual.
In regards to POTC rules I don't think they are too complex. Personally I find point focused rulesets like those in ACDC to be more complicated.
If anyone wants to hear about the design and rules breakdown in detail watch the excellent video below that SDTM did with Eric and Keith.
Here's the basic breakdown of POTC rules
1. There's 5 shots on the playfield, 1 for each of the 5 movies
2. Hit one of the 5 shots to qualify a chapter mode for that movie. There's 125 chapter modes in the game, 25 get randomly assigned at game start, 5 for each movie.
3. Hit the magnet mode start area to start the chapter (if multiple chapters are qualified it will be picked at random unless certain characters are used)
4. Number of completed modes effects scoring (I believe jackpot multipler) in a movies multiball mode
5. There are 5 movie mulitballs and 5 wizard modes, 1 assigned to each movie and represented in the lower inserts between the flippers
6. A movies wizard mode is qualifed by starting all 5 chapters for that movie
7. Movie wizard mode scoring is affected by the number of jackpots collected during the movies multiball (may also involve chapter mode scoring, forgot). Timing out chapter modes will result in lower wizard mode scoring. Not collecting jackpots in movie multiballs will result in lower wizard mode scoring.
8. Completing and or starting everything unlocks "Break the Curse" super wizard mode
Quoted from musketd:I just think that JJP’s pricing structure is way out of control they should be trying to offer a full featured game at a pro level until they do that; which I don’t think they are capable of this is how their pricing has gone
WOZ LE 6500
HOBBIT LE 7500
Dialed in LE 9k
POTC 9500$
Next game 10k?
That is not good for the hobby
$6500 for WOZ ECLE was 7 years ago, was a limited amount of time before going to $7500k and they lost money on every game at $6500...
I see what Stern is charging for $9k and its laughable when compared to JJP games for the same price or $500 more and I say that as a Star Wars LE owner. I do agree that JJP, as well as Stern, will hit a wall if pricing continues to rise. There's only so many pinball dollars to go around.
Quoted from solarvalue:Watching the replay now: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/267448319##
New this week:
Plundering!
More speech (Eric had another recording session with Kevin McNally this week)
Status report
Sounds great, can't wait to get some more time in on this pin.
Quoted from rubberducks:IMO this is true.
They were doing a final call in the UK for a reduced price.
Don't think Hobbit will have the legs that WOZ / DI have, plus an expensive license.
All I know is that once POTC is on line Hobbit owners such as myself can finally look forward to the massive code update that has been in the works for the game Can't wait as it's one of the most immersive pins I've played. Adding a super wizard mode, a new Beast MB to replace the current mode, the star raiting mode concept, and Keith's other ideas will elevate the game to the next level. I just wish the wait hasn't been so long...
Sounds like we are getting closer to cartwheel time for POTC! Looking forward to start seeing Pirates get out the door.
I just read in the latest Pinball Magazine Newsletter that POTC will be David Thiels last JJP game (at least for a while) as he signed a 3 year deal with Deeproot Pinball. David is easily one of the best pinball sound editors / artists that there's every been. His work on Hobbit and Dialed In is among the best in pinball and POTC looks, or I should say sounds, like it will be another hit. I hope he comes back to JJP when his time at Deeproot Pinball is over with.
I wonder with David leaving if Chris Granner (LOTR, WOZ, etc) will come back to JJP for their titles following POTC?
Quoted from Psw757:More
If we don't hear something soon I think we can forget about August
I'm surprised there has been an official JJP newsletter in a while. Looks like the last one was sent out a couple weeks before Christmas...Some type of newsletter mentioning POTC production status and information about code updates for the other games would be nice.
Quoted from Psw757:What has been the longest time from announcement to production for a new pinball machine? This wait is getting agonizing! Lol
Possibly WOZ. Announced in 2011 and started shipping in early 2013. To be fair that was JJP's first pin and the the most ambitious pin ever created at the time. POTC was announced last October and looks like it will ship within a year of that announcement, that's not too bad. 6 months from a full reveal to seeing the first games start shipping seems like a more reasonable wait.
Quoted from Skyemont:I do love seeing the live Streams of Pirates but at this time, I'm getting burned out. I want to play the game myself and experiance it. I feel like I know the game so much without playing.
Feeling the same way. It's awesome JJP is doing the stream but at this point I want to be surprised when I actually play the game. It's time to get these games on the line and into operators and collectors hands.
Quoted from screaminr:Where did you find that and
did they stream today
JJP's Facebook page posted it. I'm not sure if there was a stream today.
I wonder what other uses the ship toy will have besides starting Black Pearl MB? The ship is the games biggest feature and is a very interactive toy. I hope that there are other uses for it beyond starting Black Pearl MB.
Personally I hope there's an option to regularly fight ships using the upper playfield that get progressively more difficult as you beat them. With the right ramp always feeding the ship toy there needs to be other incentive to stay up there beyond reaching Black Pearl MB in my opinion.
Quoted from KingBW:JJP Tweeted no live stream today but a possible surprise later this week. Hmmm. Could this be it? Anybody know where Eric is?
The cartwheel clock is getting closer to midnight!
Quoted from KingBW:Turns out the surprise will be new Hobbit code next week Friday (or maybe just JJP Live showing it)! Twitter is JJP Software for the earlier report.
Hell yeah!!!! Can't wait.
Quoted from musketd:JJP needs to do a fresh title and not a rehash of pirates or anothe lotr. Once they do that then will peek my interest plus I just don’t understand Eric’s thinking on this game he has divertors everywhere on this thing but none for the right ramp; that should have been one of the first things in the game; ohh well; hoping that the next game is cheaper and more original
I'm surprised to hear you say Pirates is rehash when you own a Star Wars which lets be honest is pretty much a rehash fan layout game...and I say that as an owner of one. I enjoy Star Wars but admit its design doesn't scream original. Pirates seems like a very original game with a unique layout, toy, ruleset, and feature offering.
Quoted from JY64:JJP shipped there first games spring 2013 they have now put out 3 games in 5 yr can they survive at that rate
It will end up being 4 games in 5 years. Also, JJP is in a different market then Stern and doesn't have to sell as many games as Stern does to be successful. Ferrari sells far less cars then Ford yet is still successful. Quality over quantity.
Who started the JJP is in a troubled financial state rumors again? That's a bunch of rubbish. JJP is doing a live stream nearly every week, put out a massive code update for Hobbit, is shipping Dialed In manuals and has a billionaire backing them. They took two weeks off from showing POTC code to showcase new Hobbit code that the community and owners have been begging for over a year. Nothing wrong with that, actually it's pretty damn awesome as a Hobbit owner
I would expect that we will be hearing about POTC entering production sooner rather then later. POTC is a very ambitious game and has / will take longer to put out then pretty much every other non JJP pin.
Quoted from DCFAN:I would think Pat is working on Toy Story and Eric is doing Wonka based on the fact that Toy Story was supposedly going to be next and Eric has JJPOTC coming. The speculation from some is that JJP was able to get more comprehensive licensing rights for Wonka than Toy Story and decided that Wonka would be a better business decision to be next and also give Pat more time for Toy Story.
That makes sense. I wouldn't be surprised at all if JJP gets a good set of licensed assets to work with for Willy Wonka. The Willy Wonka slot machines use a ton of licensed assets and feature numerous custom assets. I bet JJP will get a lot of creative freedom with Willy Wonka and be able to put out a very unique game. I'm thinking that Willy Wonka by JJP has the same potential to be as popular, if not surpass, WOZ.
Quoted from Psw757:I asked during stream about animations with ship cannon and they responded with they are considering adding that.
I sure hope some animations for firing the canon and hitting / destroying a ship are added. Right now the process of firing and shooting ships feels like its lacking a bit of fanfare.
Examples of what could be added.
1. Shooting the canon itself results in a quick canon ball animation going across the screen from right to left matching the direction of the ball as its fired towards the Dauntless. The front of the canon (side view) as an animation could even appear on the LCD once the ball is in canon and rock slightly back and forth matching the movement of the ship.
2. Hitting a ship results in the entire LCD having a glass cracking effect or perhaps the LCD screen changes to that of a ship haul and you see that cracking
3. Destroying the ship see's a clip play from the film of the ship sinking (or animation) along with lightshow
Quoted from musketd:Just curious what toys or features were added to replace the ones that were taken away from the machine?
No toys were added but I would count incredible code depth as a feature including the map awards being offered on screen that look really slick. I would just look at the earlier games as prototypes with features that didn't work out for production. Something similar would be Star Wars originally rumored to have a magnet in front of the stand up target bank and the stand up target bank being a motorized target bank, neither made it into production games.
Quoted from screaminr:Did you notice any Cliffy protectors on the game ?
I hope they are added at the factory as they are a pain in the ass to install at home. At today's NIB prices Cliffys should be included on at least LE games. It's awesome that JJP is now including Cliffys on new Dialed In game's from the factory, hopefully the same thing happens with Pirates.
Quoted from Psw757:When she sunk ship on the production machine was there any visuals added to the display to indicate what you actually did?
They were apparently discussing adding something in one of the last streams. Happens so quick and if your not paying attention you miss it.
I sure hope so. Fanfare in regards to light shows, animations, etc needs to be in the game for hitting and destroying ships.
Quoted from PinMonk:I got the answer to the question from JJP today. They ARE using some protector they designed, they are NOT using any Cliffy protectors on jjPotC. I just hope they're not the terrible thick style protectors they made from scratch for Dialed In that sucked. Guess we'll have to wait and see if they pull it off given their bad protector track record, but this another piece of bad news about jjPotC IMO.
That's great to hear they are using some type of protector. They should be given a chance to make things right before its considered bad news.
I missed the last POTC stream but caught the beginning of this weeks. I noticed a bunch of new Gibbs callouts. There were callouts for the specific characters remaining in a mode and I think for those collected as well, that helped make the chapter modes feel a bit more immersive. Very cool stuff.
Quoted from fifou313:No more screen animation at the beginning of each chapter?
it was a cool thing. I find the missing bad now...
But the movement of the ship is a good thing.
Regards.
I just noticed that the intro chapter video clips are missing as well What happened? Why are they gone? When the star map area is now hit to start a chapter the little canons representing each chapter at the top of the LCD screen trigger and then the mode starts with no chapter animation.
On another note the production game looks to play super smooth and fast!
Quoted from pinball_keefer:We were aborting chapter starts because the feed can insta drain if the ball is settled. Don't worry, we have a fix in software coming that we think will work well.
Thanks Keith. That's good to hear that a software fix is in the works. The chapter intro clips are a must have in my opinion as they help tie the modes to the movies and help immerse the player in chapter modes.
Quoted from JY64:After two yr DI CE at a run of 150 has still not sold out chance is less than limit run as will never sell out there is a limit two what one can charge
Yeah, 200 is a lot of games for a super high end collector pin. I think 50 would have been a better number to keep it at. Hell, 200 games used to be how many LE's were made.
I love JJP games but they are taking the collectibility out of their games with the crazy high LE counts (now unlimited for Pirates LE?) and 200 count CE games. One of the reasons why people buy LE's is because of the lower build counts.
Quoted from LTG:Pirates joined my JJP line up yesterday.
LTG : )
[quoted image]
Wow, what a lineup! Very nice.
Quoted from Skyemont:The cartwheel is not for Homeowners. I have moved on really.
If buying the pin for my home I wouldn't want one of the very first few games off the line. Let a couple dozen be built first and have any early manufacturing bugs be worked out.
Quoted from DCFAN:It would be stupid to do another reveal a year or more before a game is ready to be produced. The waiting kills the instant gratification sales that are so huge and taken advantage of by certain manufacturers in this hobby.
Yeah. I would go full on Pirates at this years Expo with a focus on code support for the game and all titles. I would make a hint at #5 but save the full reveal for Texas Pinball Festival in March. TPF seems to be the new premiere pinball show.
Quoted from mcbPalisade:To point out how big the 800# gorilla in the room is:
Stern makes 50 pins a day according to TWIP today.
I've heard and believe that JJP makes ~1,000 games a year which isn't even 5 per day.
No idea about Spooky and the others.
JJP, Spooky, American Pinball, etc do not need to make as many games as Stern to be successful. Stern has a huge and very expensive factory building to operate along with a large staff. Other companies can be just as successful making less games with far lower operating overhead.
Quoted from Psw757:Hard to imagine investors continuing to shell out money if you can't reveal one game per year.
Even more so if POTC sales are weak, will need to move on quick.
Games just started shipping with a lot on the line. Lets not...lol.
office_space_kit_mat (resized).jpeg
Quoted from Psw757:I wasn't jumping to conclusions just making a point that I think JJP should stay the course and continue with their business model. They have a history of announcing at expo and I think that should continue.
Now I do think they should change how they do the reveal and perhaps just announce the title with no details other than game designer etc... don't promise any specific features until finalized and definitely don't mention a timeline.
I hear ya there, good point. Going over a year without an announcement doesn't sound that great. If they can reveal at Expo and ship 6 months earlier then Pirates, or better yet say at TPF that games are shipping soon, that would be awesome.
Quoted from Eskaybee:They would certainly increase sales a ton with an <$8k Pirates. But perhaps their factory and labor can’t support a higher demand?
Stern is now charging close to $9k for their latest LE games that have no where near the amount of toys, features and code (rules, animations, sound) work that Pirates has. I don't see a sub $8k Pirates happening with what JJP is offering. The standard at $8500 is fairly close to that target.
Quoted from Psw757:There was a stream today?
Looks like it, their Twitch channel shows it was posted 3 hours ago.
Game looks really good on the latest stream. I'll admit I've been down about the game for not having licensed actor audio and video from the films, as well as licensed music, but it doesn't bother me as much now after seeing how much the code has progressed.
Keith, Joe, Ted, JP, David, etc have done a brilliant job with the games code, animation and music. What's been created comes across as very deep, rich, and unique pirates themed pin. The amount of strategy added to the game by the pick a pirate feature and the map awards is really cool. I may just have to get an LE after all
Quoted from mcbPalisade:I think NYNY in LV is strictly a Stern house.
They have a very nice lineup at NYNY, when I was in LV in January I saw a WOZ there as well. Treasure Island needs at least a Pirates!
Quoted from adol75:Jack is awesome !
Lol, that was pretty cool and hilarious for Jack to do that.
Quoted from screaminr:It would be great to see the camera utilised a bit more , could you have a custom character so when you choose your character there is a silhouette of someone , you pick that one then Gibbs says "say arrr" and takes your photo and then they Photoshop and eye patch or a hat on you and you could play as yourself , and you could be called pirate 1 2 3 or 4 depending on what order you are in .With younger people being obsessed by selfies maybe it could be a fun way to get more people into the game.
I think you are onto something there. Imagine having an extra character of a picture for whoever the grand champion is? Could be cool and it would change as the grand champion high score changes. Could take it further and do this for the first 3 high scores as well. However, I'm not sure what other reward offerings additional player characters could have as there's already so many. Sounds like a lot of extra coding work too.
Quoted from VillaThrills:So could you pretty much upgrade to an LE from there? Powder coating is easy. I assume it can take a shaker motor as it is optional when you order. Invisiglass is easy. 3D printed cave is easy. Random twinkling star field could be a mod but if I lose it, no big deal. Spinning pirate is all that is left yes? Would be a nicer way to ease into the cost. Not sure if there is an add on headphone jack for JJP. Will need to look that up.
Here's the model comparison below. A standard edition cannot be turned into an LE due to the standard edition coming with only white GI versus the LE / CE that comes with RGB GI. By the time you add invisiglass ($300), a couple mods for the cave and spinning pirate that likely won't look as good as the ones from the factory (another $100-$200 lets say), the starfield cannot be added as its a programmed device on the LE that interacts with the game, textured black powder coated armour ($200-$300), external volume control / headphone jack (est $100), topper ($150), shaker motor ($100) might as well just buy the LE at that point as it would actually be cheaper versus having to add everything.
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