As Tommy Boy would say “that’s gonna leave a mark”
Yeah that is a major bummer. I realize that it needs to work and be reliable but that feature was awesome
The game and shots are still there but F that’s a punch in the nuts
Quoted from ASOA:
Must have been very hard for Eric @ JJP. Very ambitious for any designer let alone someone's first game. He has designed some pretty cool stuff in this game. Yes I'm very disappointed but I could only imagine how he is feeling right now. Hopefully him and the rest of the JJP team finds a way to make this right.
I feel terrible for Eric and JJP. They fixed the F ed up Hobbit artwork before launch. However, i don't see how they can fix this one satisfactorily.
I'm sure its gonna still be a great game, no doubt about it, and I'll keep my preorder for now BUT I can't see dropping $12,500 on a CE after this.
Quoted from PanzerFreak:
Including the ship in a bottle topper for LE owners would be a fair trade off.
It won't happen, but at least you've taken a break from your ridiculous Stern bashing thread posts.
Secondly, the whole idea of a CE is already in question now.
As for dropping the price? That's idiotic, people want the higher level of pinball, not a stripped down pro version. $$ isn't the issue, get it?
And now you have an option, just don't buy it.
All your whining isn't going to change a thing. Wait until the Wednesday stream and let's see what is going to be the path forward.
And it's obvious when you take features away from an already VERY high priced pin it's not going to go over well with anybody!
Quoted from PanzerFreak:
Hi iceman, I've had you on ignore for the past 6+ months due to your insults but thought that may have been you, lol.
What's considered Stern bashing? Criticising splitting cabinets, poor quality playfields, and waiting 12+ months for code updates? That's normal when spending upwards of $10k on NIB pins regardless of the manufacturer. I've complimented Stern a ton and last year bought a NIB Ghostbusters Premium and this past December a Star Wars LE. So stop with the fake news.
Give it a rest man. Your non stop piling on does nothing.
We all get those issues, you are a broken record.
And once again, it appears with IMDN they have hit another home run.
That is part of the issue with JJP, they can't afford to have a hiccup like this when you struggle to produce 1 pin a year.
Quoted from MK6PIN:
It was far more than aesthetic appeal for me...I actually play the games....having the innovation AND reliability justified the hefty price tag.
Can't put vaporware on an item, presell it, then take it off. R&D with due diligence should have been established already. Unless it's a coding thing, this is a major deal here....
Right on Mark.
It's a shame Eric tried to pass it off as "minor tweaks". The trunk maybe but not a main feature like the spinning discs. It's like selling BM66 and then removing the turntable mech (maybe not quite that bad but....)
Quoted from DCFAN:
$$ is the issue to me. I would have ordered a DILE if it were $7500 or probably even $8000. The value is just not there to me to justify paying so much for these games (DILE, JJPPOTCLE, and all LE Sterns over $8000 to date). When you dumb down the features even more that makes it even less likely for me to convince myself to fork over the price I already feel is above the value of the pinball machine.
I can afford whichever game I want but I just feel it is stupid to go overboard on overpriced games when I can get a lot of satisfaction out of other games that cost less, and the extra money I save can go to my second home or a new car.
I meant to say I was buying the CE for the innovation and collectibility
If they dropped it to $11.5k or $10.5k it wouldn’t make it more desirable without the innovation
JJP can’t seem to compete in the $7-8k arena and make $$. Not enough volume
It looks like they are going with the theory that once the game gets out in people's hands and we ooh and ahh about it then all will be forgotten regarding the discs.
Maybe they feel that good and confident about the game otherwise.
I think the Black Pearl has set sail and production is on its way.
Quoted from robotron:
i would not commit to ce. resale on that model is gonna tank because of this. spend 12,500 and i can see you having a hard time getting 10,000. now i know you arent in this for resale but you can always get an le.
I have $$ on deposit with Joe.
Looks like it’s going to CGC now
No rush though.
Have to believe JJP will reverse course here. This is a blunder of MAJOR proportions
Given their track record with Woz RR and Hobbit Arrow might as well wait for Black Pearl edition
This is the equivalent of management sitting around the table at lunch and saying something like...
“Hey guys, why don’t we try sticking a fork in our eyeball and see how it feels”
“No, better yet, why don’t we send Eric out there to poke our customers in the eye and call it a minor tweak”
Quoted from CrazyLevi:
There's clearly ONE best way of doing it, and it's the Stern way. People bitch about code all the time, but that can always be fixed or changed. Clearly it's not worth it to reveal games until they are absolutely ready - that's the big takeaway from all of this. It's not worth it to dazzle a show crowd just to have to deal with potential messes like this months later.
I hope everybody remembers this next time it seems like the end of the world that a game isn't being revealed at a show, but I doubt it.
Quit making sense Crazy L.
So maybe CGC was wise in not announcing at TPF when not ready?
Quoted from ronaldvg:
Yes. It really is, because I have always trusted JJP in that what they do they would do to the best of their ability. Otherwise I would not have ordered the CE iff I was not confident about that.
I really do believe this is a matter of money, no matter what they say, otherwise they are in desperate need of better engineers.
And/or another bean counter.
Hard for me to buy the idea that over all these many months they didn’t have a handle on the BOM?
Possible that the $$ man said trim it? No more production delays?
I sure hope they didn’t already order the big pizza disc in bulk.
Guessing they just said F it. We will put it out there and sell as many as we can and move on to the next title.
Really bad move
Quoted from FlippyD:
For me these changes highlight how little I care for the theme. POTC is not a dream theme for me but with the full package they unveiled it seemed magical. It was just enough cool shit to cross over into "gotta have it" territory. Now that it's being stripped down it's falling out of that zone for a lot of people.
The calculus for the average high-end pin buyer is something like THEME+FEATURES/PRICE = BUY or NOBUY.
This was the post i was looking for again.
Exactly what i was thinking when watching the original reveal in Chicago last October.
Dream theme? No. But when they rolled out the entire package it really did seem "magical"! Blown away.
The spinning discs represented some of the coolest "gotta have it" shit out there. No movie clips with actors? So what. No original call outs or music? So what.
The upper PF rocking ship combined with the discs, artwork, layout, Keith coding just made it a SPECIAL pin.
Ordered a CE with Joe that night.
Tell me how stripping down a game at this point comports with Jack's statement from day one that he wants "Woz to be the least innovative pin JJP ever creates and they expect to do better each time out"?
Quoted from spfxted:
Oh yes! I'm sure there is going to be a big meeting on how to handle this. A few people contacted me and thought my solution was pretty good! (having the center ring be an LED screen with the moving circle around it) The 2 led rings would only have to line up with the one moving ring.
That would be great if they could pull it off!
There is ZERO chance Jack let's this stand the way Eric explained it.
He is the ultimate sales guy and sales guys don't like losing sales!
They will figure out a way to make it work.
Quoted from tonycip:
I thought when the investors bailed Jack out he lost most of the control of the co. ?
If you watch the reveal from Expo with the $$ guy there and his comments as well I can't imagine either one of them expected this and will make it right.
Jack still runs the day to day operations.
If Stern F’s something up they have another pin coming out 4 months later
A bit of a difference with JJP don’t you think?
I’m not sure about the SE and would it matter as much to me but it damn sure does at $12,500!
Topper is cool but come on, us CE guys are crazy to begin with but not that stupid I hope
Quoted from indypinhead:
It's a beautiful machine. I'm just not a fan of the single spinning disk at all.
It's gorgeous. The LCD is off the charts. Game will still be really good.
The spinning disc is worthless and front and center.
They basically said they have to get the games out the door and I get that too.
Unfortunately, I'm gonna have to drop out of CE.
Feels like a morgue on the twitch feed. Feel bad for those guys.
Maybe if the theme was great? It’s not
Stern just blew out 500 LEs sight unseen on IMDN at $8800 delivered to your doorstep
And people will lose their minds when they see the LE/premium I predict
$9500 plus shipping for this pin. Remember they increased the price $500 over DILE
Looks like $$ man said F it, stay on schedule regardless how it sells.
Next up. Toy Story
Going forward, the idea that JJP shouldn’t show the game until it’s ready to ship is right on.
However, they still have to bring it HARD at that price to sell it!
There is some great shit going on here and the LCD animations are unreal BUT there is competition for our $$$
I think Eric did a great job and Keith is fantastic and I’m ready for Willy Wonka Eric!
Maybe this is the point where the rubber meets the road.
$9500 plus shipping has to check all of the boxes and then some and even then it’s still crazy. Stern too
$500 increase is not “crumbs”
Finally a wake up call?
Quoted from DerGoetz:
No notification, Pinside it was.
But, Joe at PinballStar was nothing short of fantastic and I am determined to finalize all possible future purchases with him. He was fast, understanding and 100% professional. Both when I locked in the POTCCE and when I sadly had to cancel. Nothing but praise for Joe. I do not believe it was his to contact me and point out that now may be the time to rethink my JJP purchase. That should have been initialized by JJP which they did via their YouTube videos, in my opinion. No harm, absolutely NO foul here.
Joe is the best. I haven’t officially canceled my CE yet with him because I’m waiting to see what CGC is gonna do or just roll those funds over to ACNC
Yeah I think what’s different this time is at basically $10k shipped there isn’t much room for error on the LE. The CE is gonna is a whole different story
Quoted from adborto:
I’m sticking with JJP. I played DI and Hobbit yesterday. They make some of the best games that I have ever played. I want to make sure that they are around for the long haul. Yup they screwed up. Still a young company. They will figure it out especially with all of our opinions! Haha.
Good to see somebody is taking one for the team!
I agree, still a great game
Quoted from Mike_J:
I don't necessarily disagree, but at these price points ($9,500-$12,500) good intentions don't carry much weight.
Keep raising prices and taking assets away. See how that works out long term.
Just listened to the Jack interview. They are just getting the game out and when NON Pinside people find out about Potc around xmas time and never even knew about the spinning disc issue, it won't matter. "People love our games".
Quoted from Mike_J:
I am sure he doesn't really believe that.
I look forward to listening later tonight.
Prepare to be enlightened
In some respects, its the height of arrogance and taking customers for granted.
They RAISED the price AGAIN, and thus its on THEM to keep raising the bar and -removed-.
He brings NOTHING to the table now. Pat, Eric, Keith and team are what its all about. This guy is becoming a negative.
Quoted from screaminr:
There's a company out there making something you're meant to love and all I read is you bagging it.
Let me sum it up for you and then we can move on.
I showered love on JJP non stop for years starting in 2013 as a day one Woz buyer.
I used to give Jack the benefit of the doubt. I'm a bit more skeptical these days based on the history of actions and comments.
All that said, let's be clear, POTC still looks like a fantastic game!!! And i feel bad for the whole team.
The way it was announced by feeding Eric to the wolves and calling it "minor tweaks update" was BS. Jack is the head of the company, be straight with us and not shady.
He does the interview, says he's sorry and then offers nothing for removing 2 main features from the game.
How about dropping the price $500 back to DI levels?
Love the people, love the pin, hate the BS way it was handled.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:
I know you aren't a hater but you and your ilk need to stop driving this point into the ground.
They can't and won't just unilaterally lower prices. They have a business plan and they are sticking to it and aren't going to slash machines $500. Stop begging for it as it's kind of embarrassing. Pinball prices go up every year, just like the price of everything else, and it's not going to stop, and it's not to regress because they "removed features" that nobody has paid for yet.
Come on man...there's still a chance here to keep your dignity!
Excuse me Levi, BUT i don't give a flying F whether or not they lower the price $1 or $500.
In fact, its the first time I've even brought it up.
So me and my ilk, whatever the F that is, doesn't care. Get it?
Quoted from flashinstinct:
Agreed. There are so many actors that can voice Toy Story. The Pig, Mr. Potato Head, Slingky, The Dinosaur. While Tom Hanks or Tom Allen would rock, I think any main character could fit the bill.
Maybe they should pick a theme like BM66 which has 100% of the assets and two main actor voice call outs
Or follow Stern on the band front with GNR and other music pins. At least you get the music
Quoted from Hazoff:
Its not news but I do think its bullshit, I doubt very much that 2000 JJPOTC have been pre-ordered and doubt even further it will reach that level of production. JMO I have no idea but always hard to accept facts from the fanboys. Honestly I hope they sell 3000 units or more but come on.
Totally agree, some people live in fantasy land. That number is ridiculous.
Quoted from screaminr:
I don't think the reveal would have much to do with it ,an unknown theme like dialled in is easy to dismiss and it takes a bit for people to play it and get to know it. Where as a popular theme people are a lot more comfortable to jump on early.
No, the reveal was awful and had a lot to do with it.
Quoted from Whysnow:
Pinside number as of right now are indicative I think. My best guess is that pinside accounts for 70% of all route based games and a wild guess but maybe 40-50% of all collector based games. Just WAGs but based on real world observations and trends over time.
Owners/ On route:
To me I would guess real world that DI has sold 1000, TH 1500 and WoZ 2000.
I would say in all 3 cases that those are hits, esp with DI being a non-licensed game that appears to be selling very well as time goes on. I predict it will slowly but surely surpass total numbers of TH in the next year and may even reach WoZ in the longer term since it seems to also be a steady (not great but good and consistent) earner on route along with being liked by players/collectors in the home environment.
I'd say you are close Hilton, except my WAG on Woz would be around the 3k-3500 range
Quoted from Skyemont:
I own 2 JJP games and have owned 3. I'm just saying the excitement for me is gone. I'm now waiting for the Oct, 2018 announcement. They really need to show a game and already have some made to be shipped within a month. Delays and changes has killed it for me. Also playing it at Allentown with weak flippers doesn't help the cause.
Sky, Let's hope they announce a Willy Wonka, or whatever it is, and then ship it shortly thereafter, a month or two max.
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:
What you wish for makes no sense. POTC may be shipping by August, and it is just now complete for manufacturing to begin. It will be the major game being built at JJP the 4th quarter of this year through end of 2019. Let's say JJP is ready to release and ready to build game #5 on Jan 2020, to fit into this cycle. They should be announcing and revealing the game at Expo 2019, in Oct 2019 if they follow your suggestion. You are going to be waiting a long time if you expect JJP to withhold announcing a title a few months ahead of release. Seventeen months of agony waiting for word that the game is Wonka. Something you already know. Unfortunately for JJP, that cat is already out of the bag.
When will they finally produce and ship 2 games a year like Jack has said for years? But he has also said many times he wants to be able to announce and ship in Stern fashion.
They need to get off this cycle. If Potc is truly the major game being built through 2018 AND 2019 then its hard for me to believe that cycle is sustainable long term.
They have to get Willy Wonka produced and shipped alongside Potc imo. Works for Stern.
Stern and others are just gonna swamp them it seems. Man i want them to succeed but I just picked up an IMDNLE and ACNC to go along with my POTCCE order that will probably get squeezed out by another Stern game like Munsters.
It's marketing 101, announce the game, take my money and then ship it to me a month later! They are giving us WAY too much time to switch course.
"In the end you can't out-hype hype, and a pinball machine stands on its own merits. JJP's insistence on getting their product right before release, is more important to me than the fact I can't get titles sooner"
This is a great point but if that's the route they decide to take while increasing prices, which may or may not be justified, more and more people are going to let somebody else take the up front hit and buy that game for $2k less on the secondary market.
Pricing is an issue with more product, like 12k games from Stern, hitting the market in 2018.
Quoted from dnaman:
I don't know your situation but that post certainly speaks. Now, I can only speak for myself on this but I hope that she is supportive of your interests and hobbies. If it doesn't put you in the poor house and she/your family come first with everything else then there should be no issue(s).
To keep my sanity and get out from a serious depression, I had to walk away from 24 years. The 'kids' are adults and we are both far better off now. LIFE IS TOO SHORT! The old saying, 'happy wife, happy life' only works if you aren't miserable. Sometimes the 'better half' is only happy when the other is miserable. Misery loves company.
You and she can take whatever you want out of this post but I hope you all the very best.
Good for you Dnaman. Life is def too short
Pretty sure that MikeJ was kidding BUT I’m sure his wife still owns his testicles
As stated in another thread, the apron art needs another revamp.
Color scheme wise it doesn’t look good and is terrible for the green CE
Let’s try and avoid the dimple discussion here.
Plenty of other threads to opine about it
We are getting down to the nitty gritty here and ship date is hopefully right around the corner
Quoted from screaminr:
For those of you who haven't seen it. I think the ships look great but the colours don't work and it's too bright . Not saying this to stir just want it to look as good as it possibly can .
Ships do look great. Colors are from the movie clip.
Doesn't work here with either game, partly because its so large and noticeable.
Quoted from Skyemont:
I agree. The CE is stupid but even Sterns Premium is around 7500 so that's high as hell too. Doesn't matter how much u defend stern, both companies prices are very very stupid.
Not getting any argument from me there.
It’s all stupid right now.
I think I paid $6200 for my AC/DC premium. Which is loaded
Quoted from dnaman:
I liked the music and the theme etc... but it must not be set up. Plunge the ball... bam straight into the upper LT flipper unless you hold it up and plunge. Then the flying balls off the ramp etc... not flowy..
You aren't playing the same pin everybody else is that's for sure! It's a phenomenal layout and "flowy" as it gets.
Well, if Jack says one thing we know it will be another.
And I guess that's ok.
It is what it is. After 6 yrs of my initial Woz order not a lot has changed with respect to timing and promises.
At this point, I might just skip over to Willy Wonka.
Guess i have plenty of time to decide between now and Xmas.
JJP can't stay in business pumping out 2-3 games per year. They can't physically do it either.
They aren't set up to produce and ship 1,000 games a month like Stern. Never will be.
There aren't enough buyers for that quantity at the prices JJP charges.
They will be able to produce Woz and DI forever which will always occupy some of the production schedule.
Get into a mode of announcing and shipping 1 game per year and time it so that it matches hype of theme, unlike TH and POTC
If they ever get a HOME RUN theme they could sell those pins forever imo. Harry Potter, James Bond, music themed pin etc.
I predict Willy Wonka will be a huge seller. Maybe not a big as Woz because of how many Woz pins were sold at $6500 but it will be big.
Bring on POTC!
Quoted from SilverBallz:
We must not know much about this industry because somehow they’ve kept their doors open this long. Profit margins must be much larger than any of us know or maybe the investors keep investing.
Yeah its hard to say now. Time does matter. Fixed overhead is the silent killer.
Maybe they are just taking their time because the line is running the other pins, can't afford an idle line.
I'm sure its just getting POTC ready and staged to go on line.
No offense but one thing i won't be doing is wasting a bunch $$$ on mods after paying for a JJP pin.
Had to cancel my CE.
Congrats on shipping though. I’ll wait until next yr to decide if I will go back in on CE after they show topper, final art, etc
Quoted from cjmjmm2006:
The game is very cool with features I've never played before. I talked to Eric in length at Texas and he, along with my distributor made this an easy purchase for me. We actually bought 4 for my route. I'm thrilled to support a great group of guys.
Hope you come back to this game Ice. It is unlike any other game in my collection.
I'm sure i will! I really like everything about it. Glad you guys are loving it and can't wait see more gameplay.
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:
Odd that the other customers didn’t get moved up versus new money.
Sometimes that’s the way the cookie crumbles.
I believe he just paid for someone else's spot who wasn't ready to pay in full for delivery?
I'd have a problem too if someone came along and said here is a wad of cash, just put me up to the top of the line above everybody else
The CE edition is going to be really LIMITED
People are dropping like flies
It's a guaranteed big time $$$ loser like the DICE
Quoted from PanzerFreak:
Yeah, 200 is a lot of games for a super high end collector pin. I think 50 would have been a better number to keep it at. Hell, 200 games used to be how many LE's were made.
I love JJP games but they are taking the collectibility out of their games with the crazy high LE counts (now unlimited for Pirates LE?) and 200 count CE games. One of the reasons why people buy LE's is because of the lower build counts.
Gotta agree here, love my Woz "ECLE" but at 1000 and different versions its in no way "limited".
They need to come up with different terminology, Stern too.
The "Davey Jones edition", "The Black Pearl", "Ruby Red" (oh wait they already did that one)
When you see a DICE not selling at a big discount on the secondary market that doesn't inspire confidence at $12.5k.
I love the topper and look of the CE but I'll wait and get it second hand for less if i'm still in the market for one.
Either way, its great to see these games finally starting to ship!!!
Quoted from Psw757:
I think all machines and all trim levels are generally overproduced.
Set price and make x amount then move on to next title. I think this is even more true now that they are making vault editions so quickly after original build. Seems odd.
They are killing the golden goose
Quoted from Skyemont:
I agree w/ all of this. On Oct 12, 2017 Pirates was shown. That was almost 11 months ago. Then this thread started by Eric over 4 months ago saying massive testing was done. How much testing do they need??? They have been streaming for months as well. I just feel bad for all the Homeowers who machines have BEEN paid for. Sure, there will be issues out of the box like all pinball machines have, but nothing major i'm sure...
Dang Sky, say it ain't so, the JJP lovefest is waning a bit!
I'm with you though. I dropped out of my CE partly because of delay but mostly because if I'm still interested I'll just wait another year at this point and get one second hand then. And of course there are so many other options coming out right now!
11 months is too long from release to the START of delivery, especially after waiting 2 yrs. and 10 months to get my fully paid Woz.
One day, lets hope Jack can follow through with his promise of announcing a game and then delivering it Stern style.
Quoted from romulusx:
All the folks slamming JJP,let’s not forget they made one of the best pins ever produced Dialed In!!!
Pat Lawlor did despite the horrific theme. So everybody that loves it he overcame a BIG theme miss.
Woz, another great pin.
If they can knock Wonka out of the park then it will be a home run for them, despite the price.
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