(Topic ID: 240503)

jjPirates of the Caribbean Troubleshooting/Tips/Issues jjPotC Tech


By vireland

7 months ago



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Topic index (key posts)

3 key posts have been marked in this topic

Post #306 Tip on removing the black pearl Posted by rs812 (7 months ago)

Post #501 More tips on removing black pearl mini playfield Posted by LTG (7 months ago)

Post #1776 Broken trunk mount bracket picture Posted by Soulrider911 (5 months ago)


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#16 7 months ago

Let's add the loose flippers for the Black Pearl as well.

#18 7 months ago

Let's see how successful this ends up being.

I think the natural transition will be a slow one over the next several weeks/months, but hopefully successful in the end. We'll probably have to keep re-directing people over here.

The post that has this link in it (in the other thread) should be a key post.

#21 7 months ago

This thread is already on fire.

That didn't take long...

#37 7 months ago
Quoted from Crile1:

I have one of the December builds and can happily say that I have only experienced the loose fork ramp issue. It took less than 5 minutes to fix...just tighten two screws. All other frustrations have been due to my own screw ups while installing mods.

I also have a December build (12/27) and honestly...it's really solid. Just a couple things here and there, but nothing "major" at all.

I will note that it's a CE...not that it should matter.

#38 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

PROBLEM: Tortuga saucer sending the ball SDTM
SOLUTION: Most likely the ball deflector/guide at the back of the Tortuga saucer is loose or mis-aligned. Remove Tortuga Tom and loosen the pop bumper to gain access to the two phillips screws for the deflector that's slightly under the pop bumper skirt. Aim the guard a bit to the left. Test and ensure the scoop fires into the middle of the left flipper. Consider blue loctite to make the fix permanent.
[quoted image]

The one I played on site was doing this! No wonder!
Now it makes sense. It's not "supposed" to.

Haha

#41 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

When you say "failing" does that mean can't get it around the top of the playfield or can't get over the hump onto the playfield?
Have you slo-mo recorded the auto-launches to see if it reveals something robbing the energy from the launch?

I don't suspect a Titan plunger could help in any way other than durability. Maybe it actually "feels" better?
lol

#43 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

The auto-launch doesn't use a plunger, it's the two forks that are activated by the coil.

Right. I knew that. (I really did.)

Okay then. Replace the forks? Maybe?

#55 7 months ago

Hey guys,

Remember the whole “lose” flippers topic on the BP?

“Simply” loosen nut, let flipper rest against metal rail (right?) and tighten. Viola!

Nope.

I did this exactly and the pitch of the flipper is exactly the same.

Do I adjust the flipper pitch as I’m tightening? I almost think I have to.

I watched JJP’s videos on both flipper and pop bumper assembly. Fascinating and was an eye opener as far as learning things will break.

I can’t seem to locate a good enough response/video, etc to learn how to adjust this pitch and hopefully solve my issue.

Still not sure why my BP flipper (left) is dead/unresponsive, but I did watch the BP removal video and it was very informative. Probably a broke wire. Maybe I get lucky and it’s a lose wire. There’s a switch test for this left BP flipper specifically, right?

I’m kinda torn on removing the BP right now as I have the Cliffy’s on order and I know that I’ll have to remove to install.

But that could take months and in the meantime I pretty much have an unplayable CE (as sad as that sounds). I may really have no choice but to remove the BP multiple times.

#58 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

If you don't take it out completely, but just lift it up and to the side, it's really not that hard at all. One screw, one cotter pin, and slide out a pin and you have enough to work with for most issues.

Thanks vireland. I just don’t know how to actually work on the flipper.

I guess I’ll just figure it out or contact JJP or something. I’m trying to stress that the instruction provided did not work for me.

Anyways...thanks again.

#61 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Here's where the service switch is that you can pull while the coin door is open to allow the coil safety power cut to be over-ridden and test coils while the coin door is open. Pull the post the green arrow is pointing to to bypass the safety and allow power to the coils for testing.[quoted image]

Ah, okay... got it. I remember that.

Alright so the ramp is loose ... that was easy and I took the cotter pin (that's the squiggly looking hairpin isn't it? ... I didn't know that or is that the actual metal road that feeds into the slot of the back of the playfield)

no matter...

#62 7 months ago

Okay... I can lean it pretty good when that rod is through the playfield. Just going to grab some painters tape or something so it doesn't accidentally slide back in.

I am NOT to take out the pivoting screw in the center right? .. Wouldn't think so..

Alright .. here's a screenshot from the left ...

pasted_image (resized).png
#64 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Oh, the flipper linkage is apart. The grey plastic with the hole should be connected to the metal shaft peeking out of the yellow coil. There's a pin that runs through it that holds it in place.
[quoted image]
Here's what the linkage you have in two pieces SHOULD look like when it's together:
[quoted image]
And here's what the linkage should look like when it's on the flipper shaft ready to tighten down:[quoted image]

Yea... I was just going to say that.

I don't know where that pin is...

I guess that's the first problem... =/

#66 7 months ago

Oh thank God ...

It's actually hiding at the the top of where I need to connect the plastic.
Maybe it doesn't come out?

Working on it...

#67 7 months ago

If you look closely at that photo ... you'll see that it's hanging out on top ..

Interesting ... if that was loose it's possible the connection was never happening in the first place or I mean.. the flipper bat was never making contact with the coil ...

Wouldn't that be sweet??

#69 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

You'll need pliers to press it through once you get the plastic in place. Make sure you have it in the right orientation for the flipper direction (which way it's flipped makes it a right or left assembly, so you don't want another right orientation) before you press it through.

Yea no doubt ... Easy enough to do that because you can see where the metal piece is swinging to make contact with the switch.

This is a bit uh precise stuff here...

#71 7 months ago

Okay so this is kinda crazy...

It LEGIT looks like the pin was put in upside down?

Cause if you think about it ... if you were to rotate that .. the head of the pin would be at the bottom..

WOW!

My right flipper pin is orientated the correct way...

pasted_image (resized).png
#73 7 months ago

So this was likely an issue from the start?

Yea?

Can I pull that metal rod out that the pin is attached to from the coil safely?
That pin doesn't want to budge a mm...

#74 7 months ago
Quoted from joseph5185:

So this was likely an issue from the start?
Yea?
Can I pull that metal rod out that the pin is attached to from the coil safely?
That pin doesn't want to budge a mm...

Because now that I know how this works ... I could of taken off the nut entirely ... wouldn't have affected that pin. At least, you wouldn't think so...

#77 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Yes, it seems like that pin being loose and letting the linkage fall off may have been the problem from the beginning.

And... it was upside down so I know you said that it doesn't matter and I agree, but with all the vibration and gravity not on your side ... ya know?
This was probably going to happen...

#78 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

You can pull it out and assemble the linkage outside the machine, but you need to make sure that you have the orientation right when you put it together for a left assembly AND you may have to loosen the coil mounts to get the shaft back in the coil if it's attached to the rest of the linkage (you may not have room to fit the shaft in straight because of the extra stuff attached).

I'm happy assembling under the BP. I just have to get the stupid pin out and I would prefer the pin fall to floor vs SOMEWHERE in the pinball machine because that could be a problem pretty fast if it fell into the MAP hole or something similar.

#80 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Assembling outside the machine will be easier, and probably faster.

I can't get the rod out... It seems too long.

#82 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

If you unscrew the two philips screws at the front of the coil you can raise the front of the coil, which will allow you to slide the shaft out.

Damn... okay.

#83 7 months ago

I'm going to have to... it's the only way I'm getting that pin out!

#85 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

If you unscrew the two philips screws at the front of the coil you can raise the front of the coil, which will allow you to slide the shaft out.

Are you referring to the metal L bracket thing in front of the coil where the screws are on top?

#87 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Yes. Remove the two philips screws and that bracket can be lifted up with the coil, allowing the shaft to be pulled out of the coil at an angle.

Sighs... that's a tight fit... okay...

#88 7 months ago

Let me just make shift an L screw driver real quick... =P

#89 7 months ago

Well...any way...

Hopefully this is what it is... It "makes sense" that it is right because without that the plastic piece making contact .. coil doesn't get triggered and so on.

Thanks for your help!

#90 7 months ago

Actually, I just must be tired.

There's no "head" on the pin. It's just a circle on both sides.

Shouldn't I be concerned that this could happen again?

EDIT: I guess not. We don't know how it looked before...

#93 7 months ago
Quoted from rs812:

Its a roll pin. If the pin won’t stay in due to loss of tension in the roll, you can buy a new one at almost any hardware store. Or, you can buy a full assortment of different sizes to keep on hand.
amazon.com link »
You can also buy a punch set to make installing them a whole bunch easier. The punch set is used in gunsmithing to prevent scratches while inserting roll pins.
amazon.com link »

I appreciate that. I'm having hell pushing this thing through...

#94 7 months ago

I may be the only one who had this issue.

Lucky me... haha

I almost feel like these things weren't designed to go in without some sort of tool.

#96 7 months ago

Wow... yea

Alright.

I'm going to bed..

What a loooooooooong night..

I guess this is just another thing I'm going to need eventually anyways .. On a plus, pretty sure vireland helped me understand why my left flipper wasn't working. Loose roll pin...when I went to loosen the nut for the flipper the whole pawl assembly or w/e came apart. Seeing how impossible it is to get one of these things through, I for the life of me don't understand how this happened in the first place.

I scratched this thing to hell with pliers or various other failed techniques.

Anyway, learned some more stuff for sure.

One day closer to playing again... hopefully!

Wow...

#98 7 months ago
Quoted from Schabs81:

Who is your distributor ? Maybe have a conversation with them prolly get new parts

Does anyone know what size roll pin this is?

It's pretty small..

It's probably fine to use as is, but maybe get a new one just for the hell of it since I did scratch this one up because it's pretty impossible not to.

#105 7 months ago

Building the arsenal guys..

Picked up a Z-driver because that’s a thing?

A pick set.

A telescopic magnetic pick-up tool.

New hex set.

And some other goodies.

LET’S DO THIS!!!

#167 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Is your flipper working again yet?

Thanks for following up.

Not yet. I did acquire a roll pin punch set as I realized pushing it through by hand is about impossible.

I have a buddy I met on here with 4 machines I think and never ran into this flipper issue. I definitely feel like I’m in the minority with this one.

I also picked up a z driver set which will hopefully give me the clearance I need to get at those 2 screws in the upper mounting bracket as, like you said, it’s much easier to assemble the flipper assembly outside the machine.

I did try to replace the roll pin and when I asked someone at Home Depot he literally had no clue what I was talking about. Moreover, they didn’t even sell them. I kinda felt proud in this moment. I told him it was for a pinball machine and he looked at me kinda crazy.. haha

Having said all that, I simply have not yet invested any additional time on it yet.

I still feel like I got a “good” machine. I think. So I’m trying to simmer down my dialogue a bit.

I have the auto-plunger issue as well. Seems REALLY common at this point.

I’ll definitely follow-up again with hopefully some positive news.

#169 7 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Guides on the habitrail.

What’s a habitrail?

#178 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Heh, Munsters was 2 days. Dialed In was about a month before I knew it was too flawed to be long-term. Hobbit was about the same. Usually if you're still digging a pin after 2 months, you're safely out of the honeymoon period.

Damn, 2 days!? lol Wow! I played it too. It was..."fun" (kinda)

"Dialed In was about a month before I knew it was too flawed to be long-term."

Before you "knew?"

I found this interesting...

#182 7 months ago
Quoted from Pinballomatic:

Remove the 1/4 inch shipping screws on either corner they are just for shipping to hold extra tight

Wait...what?

Seriously!??

#186 7 months ago
Quoted from heni1977:

I am pretty sure that's were mine sits as well. Do you have a pic of these shipping screws they are discussing now. I don't think I removed those either.

I definitely didn't...

#188 7 months ago
Quoted from Pinballomatic:

They’re in the bottom left and right corners and unlike the foam behind the field, you do not have to remove them

I figured not.
Still interesting though...

Thanks!

#194 7 months ago

Random question ...

There is a molex connector that doesn't have a friend (unplugged) towards the bottom of the coin door.

What's that about?

#196 7 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

My hands This machine shipped with very bent rails, and I was instructed to carefully_ bend them down and apart (by hand) so they would hug the shooter lane.
Apparently there was some slight deviation between the two which was causing the mis-plunges. They lined up better after I re-bent them today.

So, to confirm, you weren't having issues with the ball hitting the auto-plunge forks when you were plunging taking away your power?

#197 7 months ago

I'm curious if anyone is having issues with balls getting stuck under BP with this loom:
amazon.com link »

I could always order both to be safe or the other, but just curious.

I haven't had this issue, but my game is also at 7 instead of 6.5 so there's that...
(This will get fixed)

#200 7 months ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

For dollar bill payment or ticket dispenser, etc.

Oh...

Okay! =)

#210 7 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I'm very excited by this, it sounds like a good upgrade.

Interesting!

#213 7 months ago

vireland

So I'm a little torn...but maybe not really.

The consensus seems to be in the "main" fan POTC thread to reach out to JJP and get a replacement flipper assembly and keep the other as a spare once I get it fixed.

Two issues:
1) I still have to remove the part where the spring is still under the BP.
2) More importantly, how LONG is that going to take to get a replacement?

Sure.. I can definitely let JJP Support know or w/e, but I think I just want to fix what I have anyways because I really don't want to wait.

I know... less typing and more fixing, but i just haven't had a lot of time lately and this isn't the "easiest" stuff to just do whenever.

#215 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Get a replacement. You have 90% of the work done to swap it. It will take maybe 10 minutes to put the new assembly in. I assume JJP will ship it out right away, but if they can't ask if they'll reimburse you if you just buy one from Marco (it's less than $10). Marco is literally only 3 hours from you so you should have it next day if you get it from them.

Oh awesome!

Okay then.

I mean... I have the roll pin punch kit now lol, but maybe there's something else going on and that's why the flipper is binding.
They are 24/7 Support?

Side note: I had no clue Marco was so close...

#219 7 months ago

JJP has reached out so an order is on its way! =)

#226 7 months ago
Quoted from wesman:

Correct and correct.
When I first lifted the playfield, it was wedged in really tight. It took a very firm grip and pull to lift it. I've got it seated better now, and it takes much less effort.
I got it seated one time after, and that was after two hours of trying to move the looms, and shifting the playfield, and trying to find answers on Pinside.
After that I couldn't get it reseated, and left the glass off for a day or two, and then finally got it back in when someone recommend shifting the receiver from right to left. Then at that point, shifting the receiver up as much as I could, days later, allowed the lockdown bar mechanism to latch and lock together. The bar's teeth were hitting the locking bar, rather than sliding in and gripping it.
Been a long road, and a learning process. That's for sure! I wish my understanding of all of this didn't come fr hours and hours of frustration, trial and error, and asking questions of very helpful people. But that's life, and at least I can diagnose and help others now with what I've learned.
Thank you for your interest in my dilemma, and if you have any further questions, feel free to ask.

Wowzers!

You may want to consider felting the exposed wood where that lockbar is. That guy that did the BP removal does this to all his games and I think it looks great and makes for the glass sliding much easier.

Just a thought!

Hope you're playing soon!! or already playing...

#231 7 months ago
Quoted from cheshirefilms:

Oooh! Do you have a picture of this?

Kinda. I can provide a still image from the video.

I’ll link the video and note the time he talks about it.

I’ll provide a link for what I chose as well.

Just not home atm.

#239 7 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Mine are set to default - check yours against that (green is default.)
Also check leveling. Top of the bubble should be on the second line from the bottom.

Loose flipper ... =P

#259 7 months ago
Quoted from BC_Gambit:

Anybody ever have their slings arm get pushed "outside" of the flipper rubber? I have had that happen a few times on each sling; not sure if changing to white rubbers would help or if there is another fix.

Yes... right sling. Once!

#269 7 months ago

Alright here I go with another silly question.

Any tools or tricks to pull apart molex connectors more easily?

#272 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

And DON'T PULL BY THE WIRES. Some of the molex connectors have clips you have to press to be able to separate them, others don't. For the ones that don't pliers can help you with your grip on one of them while you pull/wiggle the other side.

Of course not...

I was a Wireman in the Marines
And I’m an IT guy.

But I appreciate the concern all the same.

#279 7 months ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

He was asking about the Mystery hole, tortuga. Not the map hole.

Hmm... did you have issues hitting the Mystery shot BEFORE installing Cliffy's?

I haven't had issues with it...

#281 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Heh, the MAP hole is a mystery, too, until the spin. I was confusified.
On the Tortuga hole, wiggle the deflector and make sure that it's screwed on tight. It was loose out of the box on the one we got here, which made it hard to hit until I tightened it.

Deflector?

How about I just pretend I don't know that exists unless I have an issue .. =P

#283 7 months ago
Quoted from wesman:

Absolute easiest fix for an issue I figured would be another pain. Thanks so much for spreading the good word!

Maybe some thread locker for this particular fix?

What do you think?

#284 7 months ago
Quoted from wesman:

Absolute easiest fix for an issue I figured would be another pain. Thanks so much for spreading the good word!

If you want to PM me a list of issues you have had with your NIB, I wouldn't mind. You were definitely hit with many it feels like.

#286 7 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Thanks. I didn't install the cliffy, previous owner did. Another le played without protector didn't seem as hard. I'll investigate if it's laying flat. Maybe flipper is too strong.

Ah. Got it!

#289 7 months ago

It looks like a deflector

I didn't even know that was there!

Haha thanks man!

#290 7 months ago

Where are you guys at with your Plunder settings?

Mine is stock -- like everything else in this game... but if I were to make any change it would probably be this.

Just curious...

#293 7 months ago

It doesn't bug me.. =P

I didn't even realize it.. haha

#296 7 months ago
Quoted from thc666:

bedlam.....hgh as it goes. even get to steal a ball from someone if u lucky.

Ah okay.

It’s not “too” excessive?

#297 7 months ago

Any recommendations on which dremel to buy?

#300 7 months ago

Thanks for the advice. I’ll probably go with the nicer one. It’s in a nice concealed case. Things like that matter to me.

#302 7 months ago
Quoted from thc666:

makes it fun! plundering only happens when u hit map hole, just remember u can only do it when not in multi-ball. think bedlam gives u a 80 percent of getting plundering award.

Wow!

Okay then... =)

#303 7 months ago

Just curious if anyone thread locks (blue) any of their stuff...specifically THIS game.

Specifically I'm thinking about the plunger assembly (don't want to adjust again...) and flipper assemblies to prevent them from coming lose as well.

#305 7 months ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

I bought mine for nothing related to pinball. And I've found various uses for it over the years for things around the house etc. They are very handle tools.

It seemed like a really fun toy so I went ahead and picked one up as well as a kit for it.
I think it could be wonderful for cleaning and possibly cutting a chain link for a chandelier I'm trying to hang up.

I'll say this. They seem like VERY versatile tools and when I was in Ace hardware last night, I was completely blown away at all the attachments this thing has.

Looking forward to it...

#327 7 months ago
Quoted from arzoo:

Left flipper on the BP stopped working today. It flips a few times and then goes dead. Physical linkage seems fine. I'm guessing bad solder joint or broken wire. Guess I'll be removing the ship again, ugh!

Would be really interesting if you, too, have a loose roll pin that’s apart of the flipper assembly.

I had the EXACT same issue. I have received replacements from JJP, but haven’t yet committed the time to fix and test.

#329 7 months ago
Quoted from Av8:

This should work. I put sling mylar in my shooter lane also.

Sling mylar?

#335 7 months ago
Quoted from rs812:

The punches are hollow on the cutting end. The hollow end’s edges are sharpened for cutting. I have a set that i use for punching holes in gasket material, cloth, leather, etc. I would use a piece of wood under the material being punched to keep from dulling the punch. You hit the solid end of the punch with a hammer.

Wow!

There’s just so much stuff out there...

#337 7 months ago
Quoted from wesman:

Interesting. So you're suggesting using the mylar under the post or around it?

Under I believe...

#341 7 months ago
Quoted from rs812:

The sling mylar is the half moon shaped mylars that are shipped in the coinbox. Here is where they would be optionally installed by the slingshots, numbers 0 and 1. The rest of the mylars shown are factory installed.
[quoted image]

Ah, I thought those pieces were for the BP. Haha

Here it turns out these Mylar pieces have names.

Haha

#345 7 months ago
Quoted from rs812:

The other little square mylars shipped in the coinbox go under the lockdown bar to keep it from scratching the powdercoat on the siderails. Numbers 6 below.[quoted image]

That I knew, but I’m taking it a step further and felting that entire area (though I did use those squares for that exact purpose).

#348 7 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Nice work! Man those gouges are horrible.

That looks fantastic!

Did you use a punch hole set or something to get that precise diameter or?

#349 7 months ago

So that I'm clear (no pun intended), the game does not have star posts by default, right? My game doesn't appear to.

I'm considering green star posts since CE. Thoughts? Or should I just do clear since it will better match the sling rubber?

#352 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Green or blue would look good, I think. I ALMOST did blue, and may still.

I went ahead and did green and I think blue would look sweet.

Sighs. I think I forgot the rubber rings or whatever that go around them? Do I need those?

#359 7 months ago
Quoted from GnarLee:

yes it is a good idea to get backup rubbers for high use areas. So slingshots and places where ball bounces a lot. Would be nothing worse than to pop a slingshot rubber and not have a backup ready. I did a full set of silicone rubber from pinballlife and it was only $20. Have not installed any rings yet (only 1 or 2 are showing wear atm) but the silicone flipper rubbers from them feel good to me. Still going to order a set of titan flipper rubbers in the near future to compare.

When you say “pop” ... you mean like break completely or?

I’ve had the sling rubber come off or rather the plastic thingy got exposed somehow..

But I’m guessing that’s different?

Also, what are the size rubbers for the “other” slings if that makes any sense?

#363 7 months ago

Do “most” people install these sling Mylar?

I would think it would impact the action and this is my favorite action on a pin.

I would prefer to keep it waxed and not have to worry about this.

#365 7 months ago
Quoted from arzoo:

How did the roll pin cause the flipper to malfunction? Is it slipping out of the plunger and snagging on something? For me is seems like the flipper is just losing power.

When I went to adjust the pawl nut for the flipper assembly underneath the BP, half the assembly came undone and my case the left flipper was completely dead.

Still working on this fix.

#368 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Page 222-223 of the manual has all the rubber locations and sizes.[quoted image]

That's a whole lotta rubber!

Man...this feels never-ending...

#372 7 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Welp, switch #48 decided to die to today. Luckily I had a few, easy swap and it's back to good. Seems pretty short lifespan for a switch.
In other news, trying to figure out what is wrong with the spinny pirate. I pulled the figure off but can't quite figure out how to get to the motor. The motor is held in to the bracket with 2 screws and the bracket into the pop bumper assembly with 2 screws but neither sets of screws are accessible. There are two holes in the mounting plate but they don't line up with either set of screws. I assume it's this motor that is bad but once I get access I'll test power to it. Also I noticed the motor mounting to the bracket was VERY loose. Might want to check these in your games, not sure they are supposed to be loose.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/sDsTaKL4HeKVjQBX9
[quoted image][quoted image]

Pardon me for asking, but how exactly are you going to test the power?

#417 7 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

There is a black plastic nut of sorts under the lockbar. Rotate it counter clockwise while grasping the button body from the other side.

Or just replace the button.

Might be easier.

#420 7 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

To replace it he needs to remove it, which is what he needed help with.

True...

It’s early lol

#434 7 months ago

Do you have plastic protectors installed?

If so, where did you get them? Link?

Are they really necessary?

Thanks!

#436 7 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

None installed, none needed.

That’s good to hear.

It’s one less thing I don’t need to obsess over.

#443 7 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Personally I go with the corner petg washers on the slings. Never really have issues with breakage otherwise.

I have the PETG washers. 3/4” right? I thought they are “too thick” or cause to much pressure or raises the height of the slings which affects the angles or some other nonsense.

wesman

Now THAT’s a good idea. Just order a spare set of plastics so one doesn’t worry.

And let’s not understate the tiny Mylar rings on the underside of the sling plastic to prevent the screw from puncturing through the bottom and tearing the plastics. Oh my... Though we do have replacements in the goody bag for this. Now I’m starting to understand why.

#445 7 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

I'm talking about putting the PETG washers under the plastic, above the posts. This strengthens the corners of the plastics and keep them from breaking. You can do this on almost any plastic that has the room. If there are parts of any game that get airballs and hit plastics this is a good way to keep them from breaking. You can use regular washers too.

I thought it went under the posts so touching the playfield?

Picture?

#449 7 months ago
Quoted from wesman:

Ooh, nice graphic!
But also remember do NOT use star posts unless you need them/have had damage already. Otherwise you'll have them sink into the playfield.

Very, very nice.

This is the level of detail us n00bs really need and appreciate.

My game came with metal washers underneath the post (and I believe AFMr does as well).

The thought process for me was to replace the regular/slim posts with a colored transparent wider/star post (in this case green because I have a CE). That was until, wesman chimed in and said he indeed did replace with starposts and it left some very undesirable wear/damage to the playfield that wasn’t there before making this modification.

As the metal washers aren’t “desirable” aesthetically, I picked up some PETG washers and was going to replace the metal washers with them. That’s when the whole they are “too thick” and it’s going to screw everything up conversation took place.

Also, I had no idea about using PETG washers to protect the plastics themselves so I’m quite happy I did this purchase. Obviously, this would replace the need to put the Mylar here.

Thanks again for taking the time to write that up and provide that explanation. This is all knowledge I can take with me to AFMr and any additional games that I very most likely will pick up down the line.

#451 7 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Anything and everything fastened to a clearcoated wood playfield will leave an indentation. Kind of like a steel ball will leave dimples everywhere. Unavailable no matter what you try. It’s pinball

Unavailable?

Was that the word you meant here. I don’t understand in this context.

Well.. if the star post will cause an indention all the same as anything else then I don’t know that I care.

All I WILL “care” about is how it looks ... and plays.

#457 7 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Probably meant "impossible" or something like that. Playfields will dimple, and indent.. just the nature of the forces of items screwed into the playfield and heavy balls hitting over and over.

Noted.

Again, my game came with the metal washers. Odd, since games with much higher production dates did not.

The star posts with washer underneath seems like “the” answer.

If indention/dimpling are going to happen “anyways”, then at least the star posts both “better” distribute the load and are prettier while the washer still acts as a nice barrier on top the playfield.

The “million dollar” question is, are the PETG washers “okay” or does the thickness of them create potential new issues with how the game plays and, more importantly, how the sling rubber behaves/reacts.

#458 7 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

That’s the key here. Before this got blown into a dozen solutions the issue was known and technically simple. The solid post JJP used is Technically the best solution as the base is solid and has a full contact compression. A wide star post (by math) while a larger diameter is Hollow and has a smaller dig in footprint. The root issue was the posts JJP installed had a poor injection mold edge which was Sharp. Add to that the assembly people over torqued them which acted like a sharp chisel cutting through butter!! So to solve this they added a soft washer to counteract the sharp edge, problem solved!

Transparency is appreciated.
Thank you.

Again, my game has this fix.

#461 7 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Maybe... probably... hard to say. Probably would only know after some decent gameplay. Raising them will surely change the geometry where the rubber hits the ball. Will that make a substantial difference? Will it affect gameplay? Will it hurt the playfield more? Who knows? Maybe the posts could be sanded down a bit on the bottom to take off enough material to compensate. I would just play it safer and find a better washer. Once I see what Marco sends me I can either recommend one from there or I'll get one from Amazon and post about it. Others think mylar is a good solution, so maybe that is a better option.

I don’t think Mylar is the better option only considering many other pins do in fact have these washers and what yelobird said made sense.

Do you have the star posts installed or will install them when you try the washers?

I think we can let this topic rest for now and I’ll personally look forward to hearing your result. Feel free to PM me even.

#473 7 months ago
Quoted from lexi:

jeez, JJP no better than the others then.......

It’s QUITE a bit “better.”

#490 7 months ago

I’m about to get this party started on fixing the BP flippers.

Hopefully I don’t have to come back here...

I have honestly been reluctant to work on this again.

The last time didn’t go so successful and I failed.

So here we go again...

#493 7 months ago
Quoted from joseph5185:

I’m about to get this party started on fixing the BP flippers.
Hopefully I don’t have to come back here...
I have honestly been reluctant to work on this again.
The last time didn’t go so successful and I failed.
So here we go again...

Well...I really, really hate to say this, but I think I have to remove the BP completely...

I just can't seem to fit the metal rod that feeds into the coil...

=/

#494 7 months ago
Quoted from joseph5185:

Well...I really, really hate to say this, but I think I have to remove the BP completely...
I just can't seem to fit the metal rod that feeds into the coil...
=/

F*** !!! ...

#496 7 months ago

I just want you guys to know how I feel right now. That's all.

I'll live...

#497 7 months ago

Truthfully, I'm not sure how removing the BP is going to help all that much.

I guess I'll have a better angle, but that metal plate directly in front of where the rod goes makes it pretty difficult to insert all the same.

But what other choice do I have...

So.

#500 7 months ago
Quoted from LTG:

Coil stops come off. Remove coil. Don't worry about the other end where the metal stop is.
LTG : )
[quoted image][quoted image]

That's all well and good once I actually get the ship off.
I can't get to the coil stops otherwise.

#503 7 months ago

Well thanks ltg.

Idk how late you'll be up, but I'll be up all night trying to get this right so I have a playable game again.

=)

#505 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

You don't need to get to the coil stop to change the linkage. Take off the plate at the front, slide the coil forward a bit to let you get the linkage into the coil (through the plate, you still need the plate in the chain), then slide the coil back onto the stop, slide the plate back into place, and secure. The feed the bracket on the linkage onto the flipper post, adjust and tighten.

Idk how to take off the plate ... that's the whole challenge.

I got 3 zip ties cut so far...

#506 7 months ago

Okay ... I have the three molex connectors and the RJ-45 or w/e disconnected..

Let me consult the manual so I know EXACTLY which colors to disconnect on the right board...

#508 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

You don't need to get to the coil stop to change the linkage. Take off the plate (4) at the front of the flipper coil by removing the two philips screws (9). A 90 degree angle screwdriver would be helpful here, but you can use a racheted 1/4" wrench and a philips bit in a pinch. Slide the coil (18) forward a bit to get it off the coil stop at the other end and angle it, letting you get the linkage (2) shaft into the coil (through the plate, you still need the plate in the chain), then slide the coil back onto the stop, slide the plate back into place, and secure the two screws again. The feed the bracket on the linkage onto the flipper post, adjust and tighten.
[quoted image]

Yea no... I appreciate it, but that's such a difficult angle to get at. I'm practically upside down. I have already snapped the zip ties and almost disconnected everything so we'll ride and die.

#510 7 months ago

=)

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#512 7 months ago

Yea I STILL can't get the flipper assembly rod inside the coil.

I removed the two screws for the metal coil stop ... makes little difference.

#514 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

If you're actually taking off the coil stop, you're on the wrong end of the coil for this job.

This is what I was referring to for the coil stop:

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#515 7 months ago

Here's my MAP hole pic as requested...

pasted_image (resized).png
#516 7 months ago

Also, FWIW ..

I made the right flipper pawl nut REALLY tight .. and this is how "high" it flips.

What do you think?

I swear it went higher before ... but idk .. I'll definitely compare it to the left once I get it going...

pasted_image (resized).png
#517 7 months ago

The more I think about it .. the left was flipping higher ... and I think it was messed up or something only because this is the same flipper (the left) that had the whole unresponsive flipper likely due to the loose roll pin which led to exactly where we are now.

#519 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

This is a coil stop. It's on the other end of the coil:
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/A-12390

That explains a lot .. time out ..

#521 7 months ago

Okay fair enough... Thanks for the confirmation:

As you can see though on this BP, it's a bit different... I guess I'll have to loosen the 4 screws on the left and on the right. it's essentially one large molded piece..

pasted_image (resized).png
#522 7 months ago

Just kidding...

I think this is what you are referring to...

OF COURSE the side I need to get to is completely obstructed...

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#523 7 months ago

"If you're actually taking off the coil stop, you're on the wrong end of the coil for this job."

Wait...I'm not...

#524 7 months ago
Quoted from wesman:

I definitely wouldn't be in a rush to get the ship back in, as you've got the t-nut issue also, and slightly on the right one also.
Not to mention if you'd like to mylar the chapter select.
I wonder if the deflector being angled as a result, which I'd noticed during the Cliffy installation, helps angle balls away from the t-nuts?
Either way, take your time. All will be done in time.

Referring to those little rings on the top left and top right?

#527 7 months ago

Okay that was the MOST HELL I have ever gone through ...

Check it out guys .. I "know why" the right flipper isn't going as high as the left ... but I don't know how to fix it..

Check it out ...

If you look CLOSELY at the second picture you will see that the LEFT flipper simply has more travel. It's closer to the black rubber in front and you notice that the rod feeding into the coil is longer...or sticking out more.

How to fix this? The left flipper "looks" perfect .. =)
pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

#528 7 months ago

I disconnected the spring just to rule that out.

As you can see in the photo I'm pressing with my thumb on that right flipper and I can't push it anymore. SOMETHING is preventing it from having more travel.

I'm going to be REALLY HAPPY once I solve this.

But I think i had enough for tonight.

Good night!

pasted_image (resized).png
#530 7 months ago

Thanks vireland.

You kinda lost me at the first sentence. =(

#531 7 months ago

FWIW... the right flipper has a lot more play up and down than the left. If that matters at all.

#532 7 months ago

vireland

Sounds like you are saying to loosen the paw nut just enough so that there’s resistance and manually line up the right flipper with the left and then tighten and hope the right flipper now rests on the black rubber like the left does.

But I honestly think I’m missing a step somewhere...

#533 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

You just need to adjust the rod connection to the linkage. Basically it's coming to rest on the top before the linkage travels all the way back to the rubber stopper underneath. So loosen the linkage on the flipper shaft *just a little* so there still some resistance, then rotate the flipper within the linkage until when you let go, when the flipper is at rest the linkage is touching the rubber stopper on the underside like you have on the other side. When you have that set, tighten the linkage to the flipper shaft again.

Nvm... You didn’t say anything about touching the flipper itself.

I’m on board ... sorta lol

#539 7 months ago

A blessing in disguise as I see it.

The BP flipper issue PROMPTLY halted any additional playing which kept games played to a minimum.

I knew the BP was going to be an ever living bitch. And it was. In many, many ways.

So, once I get that other flipper corrected, I guess I’ll have to look at this MAP hole thing.

But I’m emotionally spent for now so I’ll get to it when I get to it.

#551 7 months ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

Your flipper on the BP just stopped working entirely? I thought it was just short travel that you were having. My right BP flipper has short travel, and I'll probably fix it eventually, but it does not affect gameplay much at all. Certainly not "halting" it. I can make every shot on the BP with my right flipper without issue. If I am mis-remembering your issue I apologize.

Correct. My left flipper completely stopped working which I believe was related to the roll pin coming loose out of the flipper assembly. I fought with the bloody ship for hours this morning and it was "FUN."

Mechanically, the left flipper is "perfect." I'm only asking that the right flipper be perfect as well. I received a technical response from vireland. One I am still trying to fully interpret.

There's just "something" that REALLY bothers me about the right flipper not meeting the left. It just doesn't "look" right and I guess it's the OCD in me.

Hopefully soon I can get it corrected somehow, re-insert the ship (that's gonna be interesting...) and test.

#552 7 months ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

Yea the T-nut thing is a non issue in my book. The auto plunger is just like the T-nut except as you said, literally hammers the ball multiple times every game.

I'm good with this assessment! =)

#555 7 months ago
Quoted from LTG:

These might help you on adjusting the flipper bat :

LTG : )

It might help.

I already watched that first long one. I guess I can watch it again.
The second one is just talking about making the pawl nut tight and it is tight. It's the fact that the coil rod has less travel and hence can't "flip" as high.

#556 7 months ago
Quoted from f3honda4me:

Edit: See LTG's videos.
OR - Just ignore it. My right flipper doesn't go all the way up like my left flipper, and it makes no difference in gameplay.

I can't...

I have seen it perfect on other people's games and it seems like a simple enough thing to fix ... once I actually know what I'm doing.

#557 7 months ago
Quoted from joseph5185:

I'm good with this assessment! =)

Also, I can expect my balls too (lol). Though, I only have around 70 plays or so and was going to change them out anyways...

#562 7 months ago
Quoted from LTG:

So loosen the pawl nut a little, so the flipper bat barely moves in the pawl, adjust the flipper where you want it. Since the travel is so short, you may need to move the plunger back or forth. Then tighten the pawl nut.
This is easy, don't over think it.
LTG : )

Thanks.

I'll try.

#565 7 months ago
Quoted from wesman:

Hmm. That's a valid point. It is a two pronged tooth monster.
My solution is also to continue my bad aiming, and entirely miss the map hole most games. Problem solved!
Given I've taken the Pearl off three times, I'm not so jazzed at the idea of a fourth...but I'm also not trembling with anxiety, just more...."Again?!?! Really...?"

Haha!!

Also, 3 times!? Congratz..

Any "tips" on aligning the ship with the eyelets or w/e AND does the hex bolt REALLY need to be as tight as it was from the factory. It took excessive force with both hands and it literally popped. I was like DAMN! Okay...

#567 7 months ago
Quoted from LTG:

I grab the black pearl one hand each side, have it all the way towards the rear of the game. Lower it. Slide it forward. I just seem to hit the right spot when doing it.

No, finger tight works.
LTG : )

That's VERY helpful ..

Thank you. It was about impossible to get it off. It just wouldn't let go!

#571 7 months ago

I honestly don't know that I'm going to put mylar over the chapter start area. I assume that area gets hit just as often as some other areas that don't have mylar or considering.

I'm almost going with yelobird theory on this one that if it was enough of an issue, it would have been mylared in the first place.

Because I can make the argument that if you put mylar here there are at least half a dozen other places you could as well.

Though, "extra" mylar over the ship overboard makes perfect sense and will happen.

Definitely going to clean and wax this area as well before trying to put that ship back on and I bought some wire loom (the softer/prettier kind) so I'll likely do the wires as well. I'm not so much worried about that plastic deflector shield or w/e.

I really feel like some of this is going to be "address it if you need to address it or don't worry about it" and the more I am quickly becoming acquainted to pinball, it almost feels like the right mindset as well.

#573 7 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

I'm going to mylar both the starfield/chapter start and the overboard (double), because why not. If it isn't needed, no harm. For some reason mine also didn't have the sling mylar (maybe the original owner didn't install and didn't give it to me, but I had the goodie bag unopened) so I bought some from Titan to install.

I'm of the mindset that mylaring any area WILL affect the gamplay a LITTLE bit / a TINY bit ... but nontheless.

Idk. I'm on the fence about it. I know it's a popular area that people have chose, but it's only one way to play the game as silly as that sounds and I just feel like with proper cleaning/waxing I would detect if it was becoming an issue .. maybe those swirls that people talk about (still don't own any novus) ..

I'm all about protecting the game but I wanna PLAY!

#575 7 months ago
Quoted from wesman:

Yeah, the "final" time I got all my anxious ducks in a row. Really for removing the Pearl, you could mylar the chapter area, Cliffy map hole, and shave that nut if you wanna. For me, Cliffy was imperative. Anything else is subjective.
When did you get your order in with JJP? I talked to Frank on Wednesday about some parts. Haven't had confirmation or delivery yet.

I'm telling ya, skip the mylar/table protection. Just go full body like Frank/Leslie would!
[quoted image]

Like a week ago or so as far as getting parts from JJP haha ..

It was pretty fast...

#576 7 months ago

Why I'm at it...

What is the "trick" to get that ramp lined up right because that's going to be part 2 or part 3 of the fun when I put this ship back on.

Can I please get a pic from someone that shows "exactly" how the ramp looks when it's lined up to the BP? I had a noticeable gap when I was kinda messing around with it which I assume isn't right.

#577 7 months ago

For my own understanding ...

If this is NOT a coil stop, then what is it?

A coil start? haha .. A coil plate/opening?

pasted_image (resized).png
#579 7 months ago
Quoted from arzoo:

I agree. Since they are coming from the factory configured like this, It feel like that's the way JJP intended the flippers on the BP to work - with the right moving less than the left.

No. That's not right.

I wish Lloyd would comment on this...

#582 7 months ago
Quoted from vireland:

Manual calls it a "Flipper Coil Centering Bracket"

Thanks!

#584 7 months ago
Quoted from rs812:

Different materials, different physics, different impact surface areas, etc.
But, hey, it’s your game so it’s your call.

My game has some 70/80 plays with stock balls and I guess I "have the issue" as well so I'll inspect when I can and report back.

It's going to be some time before I get to it unfortunately.

#586 7 months ago

I'm not trying to say it's wrong, but I'm trying to say that I don't like it.

And I have seen several games which flip the same which seems normal to me. It's not like the main flippers don't flip the same.

#589 7 months ago

Well...

IDK if it's "perfect", but I think I'm coming to realize that nothing is in pinball...

If it's not...it's pretty damn close!

Also, resting position lol ..
Also, notice that TINY little chip on the right side...I'm not happy about it. Idk if it was there before or not, but hopefully the ramp will largely cover it up.

=)

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rightside_up (resized).png
#591 7 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

If I am understanding still what is going on, I think this might be your issue... I had the same issue when I changed the rubbers. The left flipper "rest" (the metal bar behind the flipper) is closer to the flipper on the left side than on the right. I used some pliers to gently bend it back (that was treacherous) so the flipper could "rest" all the way back. Mine was really bad after the rubber change, yours seems less so, but it looks like that might also be part of the issue. [quoted image]

Yea... I was starting to obsess over that too and then I said F it, it’s good enough. I’m happy with it!

It’s leagues better than it was.

#592 7 months ago

I mean...when I replace the flipper rubber I can probably even tune it more, but it’s a win for now.

#594 7 months ago
Quoted from KornFreak28:

Now put your BP back, play 10 games and get ready to remove it again for the next issue

No kidding. The next issue will hopefully be Cliffy’s.

#603 7 months ago

Just curious ..

Anyone like any alternatives to zip ties or simply doesn’t worry about re-tieing anything that was cut.

I was considering some Velcro straps of sorts that are used for bundling wires. Have a pic if needed.

Thanks.

If I can get the playfield cleaned/waxed, the ship reinstalled, the playfield leveled, and power on the game and be error free and finally play a few, I think it will be a successful day.

#606 7 months ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Velcro straps are great. I just put several on to hold some trough lighting wiring in place, navigated it all the way down the playfield and with the wiring loom.

Fair enough!

#608 7 months ago

Well...I'm TRYING to get the ship back on... lol

Damn.

#611 7 months ago
Quoted from LTG:

Be patient. Grab the black pearl with one hand on each side. Have it the whole way back against the rear wall of the playfield. Lower a bit and wiggle up or down a tiny bit so the pivots slide into the bearing holes.
Once on stuff a rag behind it so it doesn't slip back and off, until you get the allen head screw in.
LTG : )

I was wigging front and back ... I guess that's my first mistake ...

#612 7 months ago
Quoted from wesman:

And remove the VUK! I'm guessing it's much easier without that knocking against the brown/green target wires.

It is chewing up that brown wire. You aren't kidding. I'm going to tape them back and I assume the ship sits underneath the VUK.

#614 7 months ago

I got it... and it kinda surprised me how easy it was when it just dropped in . You kinda know cause that screw hole lines up..

And then I lost it .. damn wave!

Alright.. attempt 2!

#615 7 months ago

I got it.. =)

You can definitely kinda gently go up and down in a rocking motion almost trying to hook it in if that makes sense.

Hey ... the lanterns on the BP should be lit when the game is just turned on, right?
No LEDs on my lanterns .. the other LEDs are fine...

Edit: *Sighs* ... That's a yes.

=(

#616 7 months ago

I want to express how I feel right now...but I’m not going to.

I am trying...

#618 7 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Did you confirm all the harness molexes are plugged back in correctly?

I think so but I’ll double check when I get back home.

I still don’t know if the left flipper is actually fixed so stay tuned for that.

#622 7 months ago

Thought it was J908.

That's where she went.

I'll go check all the connections again.

I'll test to see if the left flipper works now. *IF* it does, the game is at least PLAYABLE!!

#624 7 months ago

So here's the GOOD news!

The flipper IS FIXED !! =)

I went into Dedicated Switch tests, lifted up a couple of times and it is registering...

The bad news...
No lights on my lanterns still ... I re-checked and reconnected all 7 cables.

Also, my game is stuck on locating balls ... I know someone had talked about that before. Not sure of the fix.

I'm pretty happy about the flipper...

#626 7 months ago
Quoted from AUKraut:

Black Pearl Removal: You do NOT have to remove the ramp!!!! Removing the rear BP VUK surrounding plastic and the VUK itself requires much less effort that removing the ramp and make reinstallation of the BP much easier!!!

Well...good to know for next time.

Which...may be pretty soon for me. =/

#627 7 months ago

100% fixed the left BP flipper! =)

And, I was missing a ball (and I knew I was...) Sure enough, put the ball back in the trough and the game fired right up.

That's so interesting to me...
Is it like a weight sensor or optical sensor or some other sensor?

I turned the game off .. I'm going to work on cleaning and waxing the rest of the playfield, try to level, and work on getting the plunger aligned.

Any input on the lantern LEDs would be appreciated, but despite breaking something else I legitimately fixed something I put a lot of hours into on my FIRST pin.

I think it's progress!

#631 7 months ago

So... I didn't inform you guys that I still need to put the ramp back in place.

But that's not why the lanterns aren't lit up...right?

I see wiring, but I assume it's only for the spot light.

#632 7 months ago
Quoted from DrDQ:

Joseph;
The ball trough has optos for each trough ball position. So the machine will know when ball is missing prior to starting a game.

Fair enough!

That's pretty cool...

#635 7 months ago

You guys were not joking about that ramp ... those black screws in particular..

All good now..

No worky on the lanterns .. yea I did reseat all of them once.
I'm curious what specifically lights those lanterns or what combination of wires lights those lanterns ..

It's a little upsetting for sure, but I'm making progress otherwise.

#637 7 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Have you checked the manual? It’s pretty extensive and well written.

Not yet.

Trying to solve some other battles atm.

#640 7 months ago

I really fought getting that BP back in place ... before I learned how it worked so it's definitely a possibility that happened...

If it's just that blue cable somehow got disconnected or something .. that would be FANTASTIC!

#642 7 months ago
Quoted from LTG:

Page C-92 shows it coming off of board P6, I'd check that first to see if it's unplugged. Then move on to the connectors below the main playfield that run up to the black pearl.
LTG : )

Sounds good ... Will work on it!

#643 7 months ago

Alright so...

I don't think it's the blue cable...

In Service Position 1 or 4 or whichever one is completely vertical, luckily you can actually get at this blue cable. I purposely disconnected it and reconnected it and heard it click.

And no joy.

Reseated again into J908 and then tried the other ports for fun.

No joy...

So...idk.

It would be pretty fascinating if somehow that cable went bad, but that's probably less than a 1% chance. That VUK definitely uh hurt that brown wire a bit when attempting to reseat that ship if that could be anything.

In other news, I don't own a solder gun and I don't know how to solder as I have never done it in my life.

#644 7 months ago

Time out...

I feel dumb..

I'm looking at page C-95 right now. That "blue cable" that I reseated on J908 and then under the mini BP (which was a struggle) is for the MAIN RGBs ... which work.

Unbelievable...

Okay. So there's some black thing perpendicular and close to where that blue cable plugs in ... I can lift her up again and give it another whirl...

=)

#645 7 months ago

Sorry ltg, looks like it's P8 and not P6. (Though it's the line above it so easy mistake. I saw it the same way at first)