(Topic ID: 240619)

JJP versus STERN....Ritchie versus Lawlor


By iceman44

8 days ago



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  • 146 posts
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  • Latest reply 5 days ago by DS_Nadine
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    Topic poll

    “JJP versus STERN....Ritchie versus Lawlor”

    • Black Knight 94 votes
      38%
    • Wonka 152 votes
      62%

    (246 votes)

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    There are 146 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 3.
    #101 7 days ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    My personal take, nobody needs to get mad and tell me to suck their dick if they don't agree this time, chill.
    Black Knight: Great media presentation, strong music, best LCD Stern has done yet, good art, just a complete feeling package. Not an original theme, but a new chapter in a beloved trilogy, just an overall well presented idea. Props to Stern for the no license approach, even if it's a familiar them. I dig the metal vibe, realize it won't be for everyone, not family friendly if that's a concern. Haven't flipped it, but purely from the stream the playfield looks kinda boring. Not bad, just not that interesting, not a ton to do. Might still be fun in a brutal way. Overall the gameplay part that matters seems a little empty and dull though. Pinball isn't LCDs and themes, it's the ball, and this feels like a B effort from The King. That makes me feel eh at the end of the day.
    Wonka: Weak package to me, the art is the slot machine/DVD looking phoned in (the standard cab just gets a logo, seriously?), the music is not appealing to me, LCD looks okay but kinda blah by JJP standards, which are high (JP has done killer work on all the previous games). The movie feels dated to me, and the LCD doesn't seem to leverage it that much, which is half good half bad. Family friendly if you care. Playfield looks fun, 4 flippers, magnets, Lawlor touches, definitely more to do. I'd love to flip it, why the heck not, but no interest in it just based on theme.
    I'd take the Wonka playfield with the Black Knight package over it, that might move my needle. As it is I say neither wins, because there are better options out there already. Why spend your money on this if you haven't already owned all the better existing games? And if you own them all who cares, you've got more money than me, do whatever you want, I don't care. Buy them both you rich bastard lol.
    It's not like any of us have to buy a new game just because it comes out. Force companies to earn your money, pass on the weaker efforts, don't be a cheerleader for companies.

    You pretty much nailed it on this one, at least as far as first impressions can go without playing them.

    I do think JJP did a fantastic job of integrating the Wonka theme into the playfield and the whole "world under glass" aspect. The game looks fantastic and has that "pop" for sure. People complaining about the theme, what did you expect a Willy Wonka theme'd game to be like?? Anyway, I'm sure this will do well for JJP over time and fits right in next to Woz in their product line. I can't wait to play it, but have come to terms that all my NIB purchases have been high intensity games with awesome soundtracks (MET, TNA, IMDN). I also seem to like shorter playing, simpler, high intensity games in my lineup. Having said that, there's always room for something different. The sound design on this game probably isn't going to do much for me though.

    Mega kudos for the lower price point Standard Edition game! This is a HUGE move for JJP and one I appreciate.

    BKSoR hits all my trigger buttons on paper at least, in-your-face METAL soundtrack, sound effects, and art/animations. The game seems to be a somewhat brutal short-ball time shooter which also appeals to me. I'm a big BK fan so the nostalgia aspect is a win here too. Buuuuut, I hate the right flipper heavy nature of the PF and low number of shots/things to do. Looking forward to playing one to get a better idea of the actual "fun" factor. The Knight toy is cool but not sure it's really doing much. So conflicted at this point. I WANT to love this game...

    All in though how amazing is it that in 2019 we have two solid new games from Steve Ritchie and Pat Lawlor going head-to-head?!

    #102 7 days ago
    Quoted from f3honda4me:

    I made the same observation. Both games playable by public for the first time last night. Wonka had lines all night long. BK you could walk up and play any time. For what that’s worth.

    Well aren't there a lot more BKSoR games on the floor to play than Wonkas?
    Also BK has brutally short ball times vs Wonka I imagine.
    Plus there's simply more to look at/explore on Wonka vs BK in terms of shots and PF gismos.

    #103 7 days ago
    Quoted from f3honda4me:

    I made the same observation. Both games playable by public for the first time last night. Wonka had lines all night long. BK you could walk up and play any time. For what that’s worth.

    Its worth absolutley nothing.

    #104 7 days ago
    Quoted from f3honda4me:

    I made the same observation. Both games playable by public for the first time last night. Wonka had lines all night long. BK you could walk up and play any time. For what that’s worth.
    Besides wonka surprise of the night for me was Star Wars. I want the premium now having played it.

    There is probably room for another game in the cargo van.

    #105 7 days ago
    Quoted from Fytr:

    Also BK has brutally short ball times vs Wonka I imagine.

    Nailed it!

    5FCB8EA7-3C78-45A1-97CE-EC8F31587E30 (resized).png

    #106 7 days ago

    No question there were a lot more of BK's ( guessing 10-15) on the floor it was awesome. My point was you could play the game a lot and pretty much decide yea or nay.
    They also had headphones to hear the the call out's and music.

    It's not like I didn't like Wonka but with the lines and the games close together you couldn't really see game play of other players. I think they will move them to the main floor and it will be much better for everyone.

    #107 7 days ago

    Yeah I don’t see any clear winner

    Both pins will sell to their fans

    #108 7 days ago

    Yes, Ice no clear winner with fans on both sides, but on the economic front the 7500 Wonka destroys the competition, weather its BK, Munsters, or Oktoberfest.

    #109 7 days ago

    Sort of repeating what I said in another post.

    Putting theme and art aside, I just wish Stern would put some more 3D items on the PF besides the center toy.
    Everything in BK is flat plastic except for the knight, some of the stuff moders will be doing could be factory installs that would not cost much and really up the level of Stern's games. Look at what JJP is putting in the standard game for same money as Stern Premium and then take a look at how sparse the Stern PF looks with all the flat plastics

    In the end, Stern games are still really fun (Love me some IMDN) I just think there is enough profit, to add some more "jewelry" to the game.

    Remember how sparse the pro GOT looked, and after internet complaints, they added the throne with the ball. How much did that cost and it helped a lot.

    #110 7 days ago
    Quoted from rotordave:

    I watched the start of the stream (when it blacked out) and a few minutes of gameplay, and my wife said from the other side of the room “is that a slot machine?”

    rd

    I actually prefer the Wonka slot machine audio package.

    #111 7 days ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    Yes, Ice no clear winner with fans on both sides, but on the economic front the 7500 Wonka destroys the competition, weather its BK, Munsters, or Oktoberfest.

    We will see Kvan, I think it looks great but I’m not in the blown away camp. I’m loving MinstersLE and excited to get Oktoberfest

    -1
    #112 7 days ago

    I think both designers kicked ass but Lawlor got the shorter end of the stick because the Wonka theme sucks ass.

    #113 7 days ago

    Wonka theme blows and the music would drive me nuts. Not a fan of Ian, but he did a good job with the music and not much is cooler than the BK. Love to see him let loose in the chocolate factory...

    #114 7 days ago

    I think Wonka wins in a landslide in this comparison. I think the layout, shots, flow, and creativity of Wonka is amazing. It looks like an inspired machine. There is so much going on. It gives me the feeling of wonder I had as a kid walking up to a pin and trying to guess what was going on with it.

    I don't love the theme...I don't hate it either. Theme is only a part of a pin...the layout, rules, and features play a bigger role for me personally in my overall view of game.

    For example...Congo is a terrible movie, but I love the way that game shoots and that's probably why it'll never leave my collection.

    #115 7 days ago

    Theme is huge for me. I can't bring myself to buy a Wizard of Oz either.

    #116 7 days ago

    I havent played either game yet but speaking as a grown man in my forties I would have to go with Black Knight all the way. Nothing against Lawlor, hes a great designer and Ive owned several of his games over the years.
    Just not at all interested in a sparkly game about candy and little kids, dont care who designed it.

    #117 7 days ago
    Quoted from Who-Dey:

    Nice game but why am i not as impressed as Kaneda is? I see nothing ground breaking, or in a “different league” or “magical” like Kaneda was saying. I like how they keep saying....”oh this is a prototype game” when the ball gets stuck and “we didn’t spent much time setting these games up”. Well why the hell wouldn’t you spend much time setting the games up correctly for such a big event that means so much to your company, i don’t understand that at all?
    Sorry folks, but im not impressed and i was expecting much more the way that Kaneda pumped this game up like it was the second coming of Christ or something. Its a good game looks like but nothing super special. Give me my Munsters Premium any day of the week, not even joking!

    This exactly. The "we didn't spend much time setting these up" excuse is not a valid one. When you are selling any product, you better make damn sure it is ready to go. Only one chance for a first impression !!

    #118 7 days ago
    Quoted from Sinistarrett:

    I havent played either game yet but speaking as a grown man in my forties I would have to go with Black Knight all the way. Nothing against Lawlor, hes a great designer and Ive owned several of his games over the years.
    Just not at all interested in a sparkly game about candy and little kids, dont care who designed it.

    Ditto

    #119 7 days ago
    Quoted from Sinistarrett:

    I havent played either game yet but speaking as a grown man in my forties I would have to go with Black Knight all the way. Nothing against Lawlor, hes a great designer and Ive owned several of his games over the years.
    Just not at all interested in a sparkly game about candy and little kids, dont care who designed it.

    Had I not played the slot machines so much I would have said the exact same thing

    Just like the Woz slots were they are a blast to play

    Am I gonna sit around and watch the movies over and over? No but the games are fun

    #120 7 days ago
    Quoted from Fytr:

    Well aren't there a lot more BKSoR games on the floor to play than Wonkas?
    Also BK has brutally short ball times vs Wonka I imagine.
    Plus there's simply more to look at/explore on Wonka vs BK in terms of shots and PF gismos.

    No not really. Not enough to warrant the disparity. 7 wonka vs 9 BK.

    #121 7 days ago
    Quoted from kcZ:

    There is probably room for another game in the cargo van.

    Would be nice hah!!

    #122 7 days ago

    Ritchie just recycles the same fan layout with 2 ramps over and over. At least with BKSoR its a different layout for once.

    #123 7 days ago
    Quoted from f3honda4me:

    No not really. Not enough to warrant the disparity. 7 wonka vs 9 BK.

    Marco told me himself he had 15 bk pro’s he was taking to the show... that’s not including the premiums.. that’s really all that’s there?

    #124 7 days ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    Yeah I don’t see any clear winner
    Both pins will sell to their fans

    Well you couldn't ask for two more different games. These are complete opposites of each other in theme, music, artwork, audience, difficult, etc.
    It's great to have choices!

    #125 7 days ago
    Quoted from tilted81:

    Marco told me himself he had 15 bk pro’s he was taking to the show... that’s not including the premiums.. that’s really all that’s there?

    I only counted 9. Wife says 10. Marco brought 53 games total. Most were customer purchased and were other games like ST, IMDN, Beatles, etc.

    #126 7 days ago

    By the way I liked BK pro more than premium. I thought BK was pretty cool. It’s a mean game though, missing shots get punished.

    #127 7 days ago
    Quoted from f3honda4me:

    By the way I liked BK pro more than premium. I thought BK was pretty cool. It’s a mean game though, missing shots get punished.

    So you were able to play both the Pro and Prem there? What didn't you link about the Prem?

    #128 7 days ago
    Quoted from Fytr:

    So you were able to play both the Pro and Prem there? What didn't you link about the Prem?

    The upper playfield felt “off”. Like this whole huge piece of the machine for a ball lock. I thought flow was better on the pro. It ended up the opposite of what I was expecting.

    #129 7 days ago

    I'm sure both games will sell great and make the respective Stern and JJP fans happy. The themes are so different that I think most people will be naturally attracted to one or the other, making a real head-to-head comparison difficult. Watching from afar, I liked the flippers and ramp flow of Wonka, but I didn't like the art, video, and sound package. I think it has better flow than Black Knight. But, to put the Wonka theme in my house at its price point, I needed to be blown away and I wasn't. I do give JJP kudos for getting their entry level game price down a bit.

    I've been very critical of Richie phoning in his designs and art packages these past few years, IMHO of course. However, in the case of the new Black Knight, I was pleasantly surprised, though I am a little concerned by the number of bricked shots I saw in its Deadflip stream. If I had to make a decision today, I'd take a Black Knight Pro based on theme, price, and sound/video/art package that I've seen so far.

    Edit: I'd really like to see the Wonka playfield layout used again with a different theme. I really liked the ball movement on it.

    #130 7 days ago
    Quoted from Rob_G:

    People complained about BKSOR music being somewhat repetitive, but I think Wonka is far worse with that constant theme playing.

    Agreed. If I have to listen to something over and over it better be rock or metal.

    #131 7 days ago

    I’m over Steve & Pat. Give me Elwin vs. Danesi.

    #132 7 days ago

    Ritchie and Lawlor have made some of my favorite games so I'm not going to compare them as both are excellent at they're particular style of machine.

    BK and Wonka are both great themes to me.

    Looking forward to playing Wonka more than I am BK as there is more to explore.

    From the videos I've seen I don't care for the way the upper playfield on the premium shoots. The pro looks like another good Ritchie fan layout.

    #133 7 days ago
    Quoted from Hazoff:

    Its worth absolutley nothing.

    I have a Wonka bar stain in my skivies.

    #134 7 days ago

    For me, its Lawlor. Been a big fan for a long time. Based on streams and photos, I would easily pick Wonka over BK. I own IM and think it's much better than BK based on what I've seen. To be fair though, I need to play BK.

    In my opinion, nothing Ritchie has made is better overall than TZ. I dont even need to mention AF.

    Ritchie is great but Lawlor is the GOAT in my opinion.

    Glad there is enough pinball happening to even have this debate.

    10
    #135 7 days ago

    I played them both at MGC multiple times. Here is my take. First, for me BK3 premium smokes the pro. You are going to want that upper playfield. I ragged on the animations after the stream, but they look better in person. Still seem less polished then JJP and Alice Cooper, but not bad like Houdini. The BK3 gameplay was pretty much what you would expect from Ritchie. It is fast, loud, and blinds you with flashers. I really didn't find the black knight mech that great. The flail just kinda gets in the way. The knight himself just seems like they stuck a doll in the middle. But I did enjoy the multiball action and was one shot away from the 6 ball! My verdict: great for location but not so much at home. For me, if I want a fast and brutal Ritchie game I would get an older one. That's why I have bought Tomcat twice and now it's bolted.

    Wonka: it plays and flows and feels like Dialed In to me. Very smooth with lots going in. Tough to figure out right away. When I first played DI, I didn't like it. Just felt off and I really didn't get the shots. I hit them, but just didn't feel rewarded by hitting them. But over the years and more and more plays at shows, I've grown to really enjoy it. I think Wonka may be the same. After all the reviews, I was disappointed. It just felt like another good game. Verdict: I would sit it out and am considering a used Dialed In.

    So, bottom line: both are good but more of the same. If you love Ritchie and modern Sterns then you will enjoy BK3. If you love Lawlor and JJP you'll love Wonka. If you are on the fence play before you buy. Me, I'm now home playing my Alice Cooper and loving it. I've got my Tomcat and SW if I want speed and blinding lights. I've got WOZ, Hobbit, and JJPOTC if I want a longer more immersive game. But, for my wallet, little Spooky really made a unique game with ACNC. So, the little guy beat the giants for my dollar.

    #136 7 days ago

    I'm not voting for either.

    Few games lately check all the boxes.

    Starting to think I'm too old & too young for the majority of themes. Where's the middle? The gap between Supreme & Beatles is a good example.

    Also starting to wonder if both manufacturers have their best games behind them?

    Woe is me. Woe is me.

    #137 7 days ago

    Re-watched the SDTM Gameplay video for Wonka last night. Nicely done really shows off the game in a way that is much better than a typical overhead view.

    One thing that I’m wondering (hoping someone who’s played it can confirm ) is that there doesn’t seem to be any build-up or tension in the callouts, etc. It’s like la-la-la oh here’s a multiball, la la. Boring?

    I like my games to pump me up, but I’ve found most JJPs sadly lacking in this dept.

    Thoughts?

    #138 6 days ago
    Quoted from Fytr:

    Re-watched the SDTM Gameplay video for Wonka last night. Nicely done really shows off the game in a way that is much better than a typical overhead view.
    One thing that I’m wondering (hoping someone who’s played it can confirm ) is that there doesn’t seem to be any build-up or tension in the callouts, etc. It’s like la-la-la oh here’s a multiball, la la. Boring?
    I like my games to pump me up, but I’ve found most JJPs sadly lacking in this dept.
    Thoughts?

    I agree with both your thoughts here. And the one thing you were wondering about was also my biggest issue with it. Where's the big multiball start shows? Where's the variation in music when different modes or events are started and played? Where's the tension to make needed shots in modes? Where's the acknowledgment in video and sound when needed shots are made in modes? Where's the integration between what is on the screen, sound clips and what is going on in the playfield? For contrast, I think of Williams IJ, one of the best games at making you feel like you were playing in the world of the movie, where every single mode had unique music themes, sounds, lots of excitement and tension, and making needed shots was clearly acknowledged in quotes, sounds and in action shown on the screen. Hopefully, this will all come to fruition as they continue code development. Game has great playfield layout, great shot selection, interesting informative screen, good rule set, but now they need to make it interactive, more fun and rewarding for the player, and do a better job of integrating the source movie into the game.

    #139 6 days ago
    Quoted from iluvak9:

    I agree with both your thoughts here. And the one thing you were wondering about was also my biggest issue with it. Where's the big multiball start shows? Where's the variation in music when different modes or events are started and played? Where's the tension to make needed shots in modes? Where's the acknowledgment in video and sound when needed shots are made in modes? Where's the integration between what is on the screen, sound clips and what is going on in the playfield? For contrast, I think of Williams IJ, one of the best games at making you feel like you were playing in the world of the movie, where every single mode had unique music themes, sounds, lots of excitement and tension, and making needed shots was clearly acknowledged in quotes, sounds and in action shown on the screen. Hopefully, this will all come to fruition as they continue code development. Game has great playfield layout, great shot selection, interesting informative screen, good rule set, but now they need to make it interactive, more fun and rewarding for the player, and do a better job of integrating the source movie into the game.

    I’m guessing more of that is coming. The code we saw was 60% completed.

    #140 6 days ago
    Quoted from Crile1:

    I played them both at MGC multiple times. Here is my take. First, for me BK3 premium smokes the pro. You are going to want that upper playfield. I ragged on the animations after the stream, but they look better in person. Still seem less polished then JJP and Alice Cooper, but not bad like Houdini. The BK3 gameplay was pretty much what you would expect from Ritchie. It is fast, loud, and blinds you with flashers. I really didn't find the black knight mech that great. The flail just kinda gets in the way. The knight himself just seems like they stuck a doll in the middle. But I did enjoy the multiball action and was one shot away from the 6 ball! My verdict: great for location but not so much at home. For me, if I want a fast and brutal Ritchie game I would get an older one. That's why I have bought Tomcat twice and now it's bolted.
    Wonka: it plays and flows and feels like Dialed In to me. Very smooth with lots going in. Tough to figure out right away. When I first played DI, I didn't like it. Just felt off and I really didn't get the shots. I hit them, but just didn't feel rewarded by hitting them. But over the years and more and more plays at shows, I've grown to really enjoy it. I think Wonka may be the same. After all the reviews, I was disappointed. It just felt like another good game. Verdict: I would sit it out and am considering a used Dialed In.
    So, bottom line: both are good but more of the same. If you love Ritchie and modern Sterns then you will enjoy BK3. If you love Lawlor and JJP you'll love Wonka. If you are on the fence play before you buy. Me, I'm now home playing my Alice Cooper and loving it. I've got my Tomcat and SW if I want speed and blinding lights. I've got WOZ, Hobbit, and JJPOTC if I want a longer more immersive game. But, for my wallet, little Spooky really made a unique game with ACNC. So, the little guy beat the giants for my dollar.

    Both are passes for me.

    Music on Wonka would send me down the chocolate river to madness

    I would prefer a ACNC, despite the tight shots.

    #141 6 days ago

    I will have to play both to deside which one i like best. I have owned Black Knight and Black Knight 2000 and sold them both. Never cared for them. So with that being said, i will not buy Black Knight by Stern. But, after Pinfest in 3 weeks, i will report back my thoughts for each game. Pros and Cons.

    #142 6 days ago

    I liked both at mgc.

    Funny story: Steve Ritchie came up to me near the Wonka machines and asked if I had played it. I told him to play a game with me and he said he wanted to, but people would take pics. Him and Pat go way back. Too bad they can’t just play each other’s games at a show.

    #143 6 days ago
    Quoted from Zavadoza:

    I liked both at mgc.
    Funny story: Steve Ritchie came up to me near the Wonka machines and asked if I had played it. I told him to play a game with me and he said he wanted to, but people would take pics. Him and Pat go way back. Too bad they can’t just play each other’s games at a show.

    Whats cool about them is that they both make great shooting pins that feel very different from each other.

    10
    #144 5 days ago
    Quoted from Zavadoza:

    I liked both at mgc.
    Funny story: Steve Ritchie came up to me near the Wonka machines and asked if I had played it. I told him to play a game with me and he said he wanted to, but people would take pics. Him and Pat go way back. Too bad they can’t just play each other’s games at a show.

    The answer is for Steve and Pat to play each other on both games and let them take all the pics they want. Some things should transcend product competition.

    #145 5 days ago

    Even the UPS man has a mailbox at home.

    FFS Pat/Steve play pinball!

    #146 5 days ago

    The games are totally different in EVERY regard and both are great in their own field.

    Personally I like the BK more as a theme and my wallet from the Pro price point.

    Willy Wonky will be most definately the smoother shooter and has more stuff in it.

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