(Topic ID: 290919)

JJP Toy Story (any rumor confirmations?)

By Trojanlaw

3 years ago


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11
#3480 1 year ago

First, Hollywoodbone awesome production on that video! Besides great quality video of the machine, the interviews and editing was top notch.

On the pin itself, the rule set and video assets sound incredible. The playfield, however, is entirely underwhelming. It seemed like a stripped down No Good Gophers. You get a ramp with a less interesting target, and one pop up bash toy instead of two.

This isn’t the world under glass and innovative design that earns the JJP premium.

#3524 1 year ago

I thought all the comments about slot machine sounds in the game were exaggerations. Just watched the Joe Katz game demo and… wow. It reminds me of Circus Circus in Vegas

The music integration and rest of the sound package is great, though. The sling and pop bumper sounds are cool.

#3541 1 year ago
Quoted from blastbeat:

Totally respect the opinion (seriously). I don't get that vibe with Zach to be honest. I do think he's just more open to different things in a way. For example likes the hobbit, didn't kill halloween (so maybe I'm biased I own both lol). He's not a spooky dealer either so. Agree good team and same with him and Dennis. It's all good. These outlets help the hobby and give me more stuff to chew on!

Just wanted to say that when I placed an order with Zach about 6 months ago, he actually down-sold me on some stuff he didn’t think would be useful, which cost him some revenue (and saved me money). So I don’t get that vibe from Zach either.

He probably has a subconscious bias, but, heck, we all do.

#3665 1 year ago

The price will be whatever the market can bear as long as there’s some margin over production and operating costs. If JJP set the price too low, then flippers will buy and mark them up. If the price is too high, then distros or even JJP may need to sell inventory at a discount.

So the price is, or will be, what it is. And value is entirely subjective. For some people, this pin will be worth $15K and to others it won’t be worth $500.

The upshot is only you can decide if the purchase price is right for you, and the market as a whole will set the price.

#3843 1 year ago
Quoted from Doctor6:

You're right. This game looks like a feature packed world under glass. We all clamored for toy story 4. This is a dream theme and we are all thrilled. It will be a top pin for years to come. This is hands down the best pat lawlor game he's ever made. He is now allowed to die in peace and forever be known as the greatest designer in history. On his tomb stone, it will say "the guy that designed toy story 4." People who don't even like pinball will walk past it and say, "damn... that game WAS amazing indeed."
Like.... is this what you think is happening? Come on. Stop. Admit it: they dropped the ball on this. It's okay to not like everything they make.
I like all the manufacturers, but for arguement sake I'll take stern's side. I think led zeplin is one of the sorriest pieces of shit I've ever seen. I don't care for mando. I said that Godzilla looked like a water melon (game is crazy good though). You can be a fan of a company and still admit they messed up.
The reason they had their biggest day ever is because they pre sold all those expensive ass games to distros already. This can NOT be a surprise.

FOMO speculation is a helluva drug.

#3859 1 year ago
Quoted from Doctor6:

Are you saying it is i that have a fear of missing out? I can place an order right now for this pile of shit, and definitley am passing. No fear here.
Edit: I don't... I don't think that's what you were saying, but the internet is hard for me sometimes.

Agreeing with you that the early sales volume doesn’t necessarily mean people like the game

#3862 1 year ago
Quoted from Vespula:

Are we at the "Remember when you could get a pin for under $10k?" days?!
I woke up today feeling like I totally got a deal on my NIB GnRLE at $9500

The kicker is, aside from the larger backbox monitor and "complimentary" hot rails, this machine doesn't have much going for it beyond a typical Stern premium. In fact, you could argue that Godzilla Prem has more features than TS4.

So if JJP can sell a boatload of Stern-level TS4's at $12K a pop, why wouldn't Stern start selling their premium pins at the same price point?

Speaking from the marketing perspective rather than as a consumer, the question isn't whether TS4 is priced too high, it's whether Stern has been pricing too low.

#3953 1 year ago
Quoted from DiabloRush:

I couldn't disagree more. One of the worst parts of Sterns IMHO is the flippers. Way to slappy and clunky. I *adore* the flipper feel on the Williams WPC/WPC95 titles. Both American Pinball and JJP do a fine job of providing hardware and drivers that replicate that feel. One of the things I like most on the JJP games, in addition to the stellar build quality. This may be a generational thing. Those that grew up on Sterns in the last 20 years likely consider that the standard for flipper feel. My pinball heyday was the late 70s to 90s. WPC games were the best.

JJP flippers + Stern flipper springs + raising flipper strength + Tibetan Breeze fans = thing of beauty

#3955 1 year ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Stern premiums are not equivalent to JJP LE’s. With that being said I agree with you about Godzilla premium / LE having more in it then Toy Story models. In terms of mechanical features Toy Story is JJP's weakest game to date IMO.
JJP LE = Stern LE
JJP CE = Stern Super LE, Signature Editions, etc.

Don’t get me wrong, historically JJP LEs have been in a whole different ballpark compared to Stern Prems. Until TS4.

#4089 1 year ago

If TS4 has proven anything, it’s that anyone who bought JJP’s POTC for MSRP got it for a steal at that price.

#4283 1 year ago

*grabs popcorn while grown men purchasing $10k+ toys debate how childish TS4 is*

#4292 1 year ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I consider slots to be ATMs in reverse.

Should be a banner over every casino

#4296 1 year ago
Quoted from Elvishasleft:

What do you have against talking potato's?

*adds a side of fries with the popcorn*

#4309 1 year ago

What’s the over/under that JJP announces their next pin before end of 2022?

#4334 1 year ago
Quoted from Sunsfan23:

It took them 2 years to make as many GnRs as they plan to make of toy story.

Didn't JJP just finish expanding their production capacity? With 4(?) designers on board now, it seems like they must be targeting two releases per year.

#4340 1 year ago
Quoted from 6S3NC3:

Can we all agree that the biggest problem with TS4 is the price? If it was priced correctly I think it would not be getting all the hate. Maybe the standard will be the one to go with? Any news if they are doing a standard? unless the remove the jump ramp. That would be a total loss.

And it not being based on one of the better Toy Story movies. And the sounds put some people off. And fewer mech features than were expected. And the Mirco playfield.

Not saying people who like TS4 shouldn't like it. But those who don't have more reasons than just the price.

#4344 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Why does Stern ship LEs before premiums? Capturing the money before it has a chance to flee...

To be fair, Stern also produces pro models before LEs to get an operator-friendly model to locations quicker. With no standard TS4, the LE is the operator-friendly model in this case.

#4439 1 year ago

Thoughts after watching the SDTM review:

- Love the intro when you hear Buzz Lightyear’s voice while a warning for adult language is on screen

- The first cut that shows the Bo Peep spinner plays a different spinner sound than what’s in the game. I think this might’ve been from the promo video and I missed it at the time. It’s like the marketing guy said no way they’re playing that bell in promo material

- Agree with Zach and Greg that the playfield art is amazing

- Backbox display is another JP Dewin masterpiece

- Looks like there are shots within shots, so more variety in the shots than the layout would suggest

- Had a hard time finding something in this pin that isn’t already done as well or perhaps better in other pins. Agree with some other comments that TS4 may be a “best of” design that amalgamates shots from a collection of pins, rather than creates something new

- Agree that four pop bumpers is overkill

- Really like what I’m hearing about the variable approaches to reach the wizard mode. Hope it works well and we see this in future pins

- Can’t wait to see someone (Karl?) test if JJP truly fixed loss of flipper power over time

- Love the literal shill merch

#4502 1 year ago

Man, the Stern vs. JJP camps here are worse than the PlayStation vs. Xbox console wars.

Look, no one can really review TS4 (or any pin IMHO) until they get at least 500 games on it. (FWIW, I won’t post a review until I play 1,000+ games.)

SDTM didn’t even call their video a review, they rightfully labeled it a first impressions. Obviously we can all form opinions and hypotheses because we need something to inform a purchase decision. But almost no one outside of JJP has put the time into TS4 to truly claim this is a good or bad pin yet, even subjectively.

Also, value is entirely subjective. Econ 101: there is a demand curve. That curve represents the variety of prices that different people would be willing to pay for a product across the population. Some would be willing to pay a lot more, others a lot less.

#4503 1 year ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

The designer, graphic artists and modelers have done a great job. The rules will be the big decider. That is always the weakness with jjp.

+1

Actually, I like the rules on GNR, but the scoring is ridiculously out of whack with the risk/reward for many modes. And none of my friends can follow the rules for everything going on in the pin because it is a bit complicated.

Mando taught me the value of a clear rule set. I’m not enamored with the playfield, but it’s so easy to follow my mode progress and explain the objectives to new players. Plus the co-op feature is the reason it’ll have a long life in my gameroom.

Come to think of it, incorporating co-op would’ve been the perfect opportunity for JJP to really brand TS4 as an ideal home pin for the family.

#4506 1 year ago
Quoted from manadams:

Is it really the Stern fanboys getting their licks in on an easy target or collectors in general that know it's a subpar offering for a record high price increase compared to what JJP has done in past games?

Both.

#4558 1 year ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

LOL no one here plays their games that much, except Derek.

I’m at 1,000 on my DP. And getting there on Mando

-1
#4560 1 year ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

That really made me lol
So I have to put about 40 hours of gameplay on a machine before I have a right to review it....
Strongly disagree. I can tell if I like a game after just a few plays, because I know what I like

Heh, anyone who reviewed most video games with less than 40 hours on it would be dismissed right off the bat.

Edit: Kinda makes sense now why no one takes the Pinside rankings seriously.

#4563 1 year ago
Quoted from John_I:

Haha I can remember being of some forums back in the days for PS3 and Xbox 360. It was very ugly and often very entertaining.
Though it's definitely fun to mess with people I don't agree with; I've come to accept that it's a good thing that all game consoles and all pinball machines aren't made specifically to my tastes. It boggles my mind that people still consider WOZ to be a good playing pinball machine, on the other hand I love my LZ. I literally hate DI and love WPT. I dislike almost all System 11 games, but love some of the Gottlieb games from that era. I hate Family Guy and love Shrek. Dislike Kiss and love Rush. There is no right and wrong, just opinions.
I'll also state that the best video pinball or tablet pinball is less fun than the worst real pinball machine. So once again my mind is boggled hearing people talk about the upper playfield in TS4 being a video pinball without 100% agreement that it's an atrocity!

Yeah, I got back into pinball thanks to virtual pinball. Now that I have a few machines at home I don’t enjoy virtual pinball nearly as much. Just can’t beat the physicality of a real machine.

It’ll be interesting to see if the digital features on the “tablet” in TS4 pulls in the next generation of kids. They might start playing for the tablet, but get into the hobby for the physical feedback like the rest of us. At the very least, this TS4 is an interesting experiment.

#4568 1 year ago
Quoted from manadams:

That time is NOW. JJP trying to pass off the BOM of an SE as an LE with a lame fourth movie theme for more money is the turning point. I would rather own any AP game or even Ultraman before buying this disappointment [quoted image]

In most markets, I’d be ecstatic if someone told me that 20% of customers in a sample planned to buy my product. Pinball is its own beast, but that poll honestly doesn’t look all that bad, especially considering the likely negative sample bias.

#4569 1 year ago
Quoted from romulusx:

Please someone sell him a Houdini so he will shut up already!

Hey, if I complain and compare TS4 to Oktoberfest, will someone buy it for me?

#4657 1 year ago

Anyone else not surprised that a new pin was the most played on location the first week of release?

IIRC, Mando was popular when it launched and then interest dropped off quite quickly afterward. We’ll see how TS4 holds up a few months from now.

My guess is it’ll continue to be a draw in the right locations. Also, as many have pointed out (and we’ve heard from operators on podcasts like BDYETP), top earning pins often don’t align with pins that hobbyists enjoy.

All that matters is if you like it

#4750 1 year ago
Quoted from ZNET:

Ten years ago, everyone complained that WOZ Emerald City at $6,500 was too expensive. When I picked up my game at his JJP Lakewood, NJ facility back then, Jack confessed to me (and to anyone who asked) that he really had no reliable pricing formula.
He had to make a splash with his initial release so the BOM was secondary. That's what he told me. Some Pinsiders believe that JJP would escalate its "mech quotient" with subsequent titles. In reality, WOZ was the Twilight Zone of its day (even the layout is reminiscent of TZ) in terms of mechanical sophistication.
The confluence of JJP's entry into manufacturing, coupled with the fact that Jack already had the WOZ license from his companion business, combined to produce an exceptionally complex bellwether game for this fledgling pinball company.
However, it was just a matter of time before the economics of the business altered the product. I don't profess to offer any answers because running a pinball business is outside of my field. What I do know is that enthusiasts in this hobby viewed Jersey Jack as the pinball company which emphasized innovation and inspired mechanical modernization.
I hope that JJP reclaims that sensibility with subsequent titles.

I hope so too. Meunier seems to thrive on innovative designs, and I’d really hate to see his next title held back.

#4773 1 year ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

Completely different - 2 hours of video game play and I have only seen a fraction of what it offers
2 hours of pinball play and I have made every shot numerous times and have a feel if I like the layout - code has personally never really turned me off on a machine, I loved TWD while everyone was hating on it.

Fair point. But even a fighting game reviewer would be expected to put more than a few hours into the game even though they probably saw everything in the first 60min. They need to actually lab out the characters, practice hard, and experiment to truly find the depth or lack thereof in a game.

While a couple hours will give you a feel for a pin, it’s not enough to inform whether it really has lasting power, whether elements will grow on you, and how much maintenance or defects will be dealt with, which are all important elements of an actual review vs. first impressions IMO.

I hated Mando’s layout after the first couple of hours with it, but I’ve come to enjoy it more after learning its shot geometry better, finding a rhythm to control the ball in the upper playfield, and realizing the pin made me a better trap player and improved my scores on other pins. I don’t feel like the game really came into its own for me until after at least 100 games. Now I’m testing the depth of the code to see how much I can mix up my strategies, and it took many months for players to realize at least one mode is too high risk/low award to be worth playing.

None of this would’ve been discovered after just a couple hours of gameplay.

Not saying people shouldn’t have impressions of gameplay and use that to inform their purchase decisions. But we’ve got people on here with a handful of games under their belt claiming that TS4 is an all time great or a JJP’s worst pin ever as though it’s a universal truth.

Give it time and we’ll see how well TS4 really holds up.

#4841 1 year ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

My kids have requested The Mandalorian....thats one title that doesnt seem to retain value....not sure why?

The Mando layout isn’t the best. It’s got innovative shots and is anything but a standard fan, however it feels like the geometry is a bit off. Cramming so many shots in one plane makes all but a couple really tight.

It’s a family theme but plays like a punishing pin. Dwight’s code is really what saves the pin IMO.

And to make matters worse, Mando is the last pin to release before Godzilla launched and grabbed everyone’s attention.

#4954 1 year ago
Quoted from fooflighter:

That may happen if it's possible to hit the wizard mode repeatedly on the first try. Looking at my GnR LE, it looks loaded with the lights off. I always associated JJP with the high end boutique market and a loaded pin, which justified the cost. If they want to dive into the Stern Pro waters, that's fine, but the price should reflect accordingly. This price is a hybrid reflection of the current economy and what the market will bear, not necessarily because it's a 12k game. The game will eventually set the price. If the code updates can turn it into a EHOH, GOTG, or ST then it may have some legs to withstand the secondary market. There are some neat innovations to this pin namely the ramp and the benson posts and the lock feed to the disc, I just need some defining modes ala Godzilla. The current code is a chaotic jumble on first watch. Maybe that's a good thing for complexity sake.

I feel the same way about GNR. Four shots from the third main playfield flipper, surprisingly fun upper playfield with multiple shots that all feel different, custom and innovative designs for standard elements like drumsticks for habitrails and guitar neck for a ball lock.

A pin doesn't need mechs to be innovative; DP's snikt shot is one of my favorite unique designs and it's just a creative use of standard hardware. But I'm struggling to see anything on TS4 that truly does something new or significantly better on the playfield. The jump shot in NGG has more going on (hit the ramp, get the jump, and nail the hole in one if you're really precise), and NGG's gofer bash targets also offer more (two bash targets that interrupt the ramps and also switch into ball locks).

Agreed that code could be what brings this whole pin together and helps it stand out, but that didn't seem like the case watching it on multiple streams. Looks like the shots are smooth; it's just hard to justify premium pricing if that's the best thing going for TS4.

Heading to a local pinball museum soon that tends to also get new releases pretty quickly, hopefully they have a TS4 to try.

#5035 1 year ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Totally agree....I think the whole TS4 debacle will eventually back fire on JJP. They clearly looked at the secondary market and priced the game accordingly, which in my mind is pretty short sided. It was a massive cash grab by JJP, and I have zero interest in supporting the new JJP (and I've owned all their games).

If the poor price/value leaves distributors holding the bag on pins they can’t move, then it’ll certainly hurt distro pre-orders for future JJP titles.

But if distros sell out of TS4s because consumers and operators lap them up, then we’re going to see a new paradigm at JJP (and probably throughout the industry).

#5037 1 year ago
Quoted from galore2112:

It’s a forum so people will post opinions and some are very strongly disliking this game.
That’s just how it is.
Unless the discussion becomes offensively rude or political, why would this need moderation?
Debating (and criticizing or even trashing) the game of the thread’s title is “fair” and part what a forum is.
Even if some don’t like that others talk bad about their $12k-$15k investment.

I think people are reacting to the absurdity of claiming TS4 crashed of its own accord on Karl when a lightning strike caused a power surge and other electronics in his house automatically shut off. That’s not an opinion, that’s actually straight up lying.

Which should also serve as a good reminder to everyone to make sure your pins are plugged into good surge protectors, and a UPS battery backup is an added plus.

-2
#5049 1 year ago
Quoted from rob3:

Yeah. All this repeating your negative sentiment and basically celebrating/hoping that a $15k investment will drop by 33% overnight is not what a community needs. It’s trolling.

Between the endless trolling from all sides and people complaining about woke Disney, Pinside is one chan away from 8chan.

#5052 1 year ago
Quoted from koji:

Doesn't seem like a fair comparison. I don't know what the breakdown is, but I'd imagine the development budget of TS4 would clearly require a lot more R&D effort, artist and licensing costs, as opposed to a remake (all be it, with quite a bit of added work, still nothing next to starting scratch.).

I'd find it hard to believe that TS4 didn't cost more to develop than most pins. Those JP de Win video assets are best-in-class. But development costs are fixed. The variable costs on TS4 shouldn't be significantly higher than many if not most other pins. And that includes royalties, which any licensed theme likely has to pay, including Stern's royalties to Disney for Mando.

If their variable costs are higher on TS4, then JJP is doing something wrong with procurement or manufacturing.

#5055 1 year ago
Quoted from zermeno68:

I as well wonder what drove the cost of this pin for about $3,000 increase for CE.

Because people still bought it at this price.

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#5080 1 year ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Why would you think things like royalties... that are completely negotiated fees.. and vary depending on what you actually use... as fixed or similar between games?
Or even that development costs are fixed?

Because that's literally the definition of a fixed cost. Econ 101: fixed costs = you pay it once regardless of how many units you produce. Variable cost = increases when you produce more units.

Cost to develop/design the pin is fixed. (Technically it's also sunk once you've spent it.) Royalties, manufacturing labor, parts, etc. are variable costs.

Edit: If JJP's royalty rates and licensing fees for TS4 are significantly higher than Stern's for Mando, then JJP needs to fire their BD department.

#5085 1 year ago
Quoted from zermeno68:

So… what are the odds a distro selling CE for a discount??? Or would this apply to LE’s right now?

Not impossible, but probably low since distros that priced at 60% markups still sold out of CEs. The only way I could envision CE inventories build at distros is if a lot people cancel their pre-orders.

#5160 1 year ago
Quoted from RobbyIRL5:

Which has more “value”? This seems like a good thread to ask that question
[quoted image]

Neither if you don’t get drapes to block sunlight from that right window

2 weeks later
#5446 1 year ago

This whole theory that consumers don’t care about price is one of those things that’s “true until it isn’t.”

There is a breaking point where supply of used pins will heavily outstrip demand at the NIB price. Maybe it’s $12K, or $15K, or $35K; I’m not sure anyone knows until we pass it.

But the first time a bunch of NIB owners take an unexpectedly large haircut when they try to sell used, it’ll be the last time many of them buy a NIB sight unseen. And that’ll translate to slower sales for the next NIB near that price, which will kill the FOMO, which will further slow sales… and so on.

I really can’t say if TS4 is at or anywhere near the break point. There’s a clear sense based on the reaction, though, that JJP is playing with fire on this release.

1 week later
#5715 1 year ago

I finally had a chance to try TS4 at a local pinball museum. My first impression isn't all that different from what others generally say: it plays fine, shots are smooth, but nothing really stood out on the playfield that made it special other than the theme. The playfield monitor was washed out and difficult to read. I'm guessing it was the angle because the playfield monitors in GNR and Star Wars both looked fine.

Digital assets are incredible, though. JP de Win is the Zombie Yeti of pinball digital art. I can't really comment on the sounds as the place was too loud to make out much of anything; the ringing bell was the only sound that I could hear clearly and consistently. (Which may be why JJP went that direction with their sound design, it does stand out in a loud location.)

For comparison, this was also my first opportunity to get hands-on play with Godzilla, Dialed In, and Wonka. Godzilla was adjacent to TS4, and I kept hopping back and forth between them. For someone at my horribly low skill level, the shots I was hitting on Godzilla felt far more interesting and satisfying.

Dialed In was a very positive surprise. Now I understand why fans are so dang loyal to that machine. I'd try to buy one if I had room for a larger collection.

#5750 1 year ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Lower than MSRP prices are never published. They're between distrib & customer.

Yep, unless JJP operates differently, often distributors can't advertise a price below a certain threshold (sometimes MSRP, sometimes a price below MSRP). I don't think we'll know the real market price - whether higher or lower than MSRP - until the secondary market matures.

#5753 1 year ago
Quoted from JohnTTwo:

Here it published https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/139290
Is this a little tip like hey we’re not at MSRP? Innuendo?

That just feels like a marketing gimmick to draw more interest than their competitors, like pricing something at $9.99 rather than $10.00. That's not meaningfully below MSRP...

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