Quoted from Charlemagne1987:

I’d never call someone who bought from JJP or any other manufacturer a “moron”. I have a JJP POTC, love it and have no intention of selling it. My beef is with JJP for the reasons we’re all familiar with. I feel profoundly let down by JJP, and I’m angry about that. That’s why I’m boycotting them. But if someone else has had a good experience with them and enjoys their game I’m legitimately happy for them. This is a great hobby that’s meant to be fun. So I would never begrudge someone else’s enjoyment. Calling someone a moron (or any other insult) for buying a JJP game is wrong. Those of us who are angry at JJP should direct our anger and our insults AT JJP, nowhere else.

Quoted from Bud:

Then why are you interested in this JJP tread?

Quoted from 6S3NC3:

I say this every time I fill my oil tank.

No way is MSRP going to go to 15k. It will be slightly higher than an GnR CE MSRP if anything.

Quoted from iamabearsfan:

Can you point to pictures of this? Just curious how you know this is the case. In my mind the jury is still out on this. I was at the factory and had an extensive conversation about this. Personally I am happy with how they have addressed the situation. I know it isn't ideal, but I really think that the latest builds have not had the same issue. Again, need examples to be swayed.

Quoted from Damonator:

Other than the few CEs that JJP offers on their website upon release, most all distributor CEs have been sold out for probably a year.

Quoted from Minnpin65:

My guess is all the available CE’s are already spoken for. My wife said if TS is announced, there will be one coming home. I spoke to the distributor that I’d be buying it from last fall. He told me he had over 30 people wanting CE’s and said he’d be lucky if JJP gives him a dozen. Based on that conversation, I’ll bet they’re already spoken for. Remember, most distributors have a long list of clientele that have been with them for years and also buy every LE or CE that Stern or JJP release. I also believe that clientele doesn’t care if the machine is $12000 or $15000. They have disposable income. My .02

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

No, but here's a guess lol.
Launch
500 Buzz CE's
500 Woody CE's
10,000 LE's
2 years later
2500 Buzz Ultimate Limited Editions
2500 Woody Wild West Limited Editions
2025
Unlimited Toy Story 30th Anniversary Limited Edition (but with one of the main toys removed)

Quoted from Nickson:

How much would an LE cost??

Quoted from greeneye:

It will definitely be more than 11k. 11500 at least

Quoted from musketd:

Does anyone know if they finally fixed their playfields and are actually going to support their games now JJP that is and not let their customers down if they have issues with their games

Quoted from KornFreak28:

Wow! I might have to wait it out a bit on TS

Quoted from toddtuckey:

I am expecting 13K and $17K

Quoted from Noma2017:

I think the boldest prediction is the CE number of units. I could see it though.

Quoted from explosiveegg:

Just out of curiosity, what pinball manufacturer do you think is not all about profit?

Quoted from KornFreak28:

You guys crack me up with all this talk and speculation about prices and number of units made. Obviously, nobody knows for sure at this point! No wonder prices keep climbing! Chill!!!!!

Quoted from KornFreak28:

Exactly my thoughts! Sorry to say but, I just don’t see the point in all these stupid “Speculation” threads. What’s the purpose? All they do is fuel JJP’s fire to hike prices!
Every new machine is the same fking story. NIB machines plagued with playfield issues. Then there’s a bunch of people crying over bad playfields and horrible customer service afterwards.
Then, a year later, they are all ready for the next one…..
I have owned JJP machines before so I know first hand what it is to deal with all the issues coming right out of the box. Which I think is BS given all the money these machines cost.
Keep up your pointless speculating and helping drive prices up! Peace!

Quoted from KornFreak28:

The way I see it, and based on past experiences, LE’s will most likely turn out to be a much better value. What did Pirates CE owners got for theirs? A different (and uglier) colored playfield with same playfield issues as LE’s and SE’s, a CE placard, and a noisy topper?
Unless the CE offers a different playing experience by adding more goodies and toys, I just don’t see the justification. We will see….

Quoted from paynemic:

Ok, from my distro who I won’t name, but it’s a major one. I made the list for a ce. I got on many months ago.
CEs and LEs on the two lines simultaneously right now. 4 weeks to be in stock. CE at $15000. I think that’s all the info I got.

Quoted from J85M:

And just like that everyone forgets JJP had playfields falling apart on their last two releases CE included.
[quoted image]

Quoted from J85M:

I know people who couldn’t get replacement playfields and those that did had to fight really hard for them, which still isn’t a great resolution if it goes to someone who isn’t able to do a playfield swap, some people in this hobby physically can’t due to health issues.
But my original comment wasn’t to cause a big song and dance Vitty felt the need to try and make a big deal out of it but it’s always good to bring up the point for those unaware of past issues. No doubt there will be the same people moaning about problems if there are any, rinse and repeat is the Pinside way haha.

Quoted from manadams:

https://fb.watch/dws7UGaSrS/

Quoted from Wariodolby:

Joe!!
Quick question!
Will Any of these shirts give me a little more luck getting a CE?[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Quoted from Goronic:

Aaaaand, this is why they will sell out

Quoted from Betelgeuse:

You may be right, but those other games were before people started paying 2x-3x the price for the version with different cabinet art and trim color. These are strange times we live in now.

Quoted from KornFreak28:

Are you getting a CE?

Quoted from zaphX:

[quoted image]

Quoted from delt31:

I don’t take notes of others with too much time on their hands - just stating my view. If that’s what many think, then they’re right as well IMO. Just like those that think this will be ultra loaded for some reason are drinking the jjp kook aid. I hope I’m wrong though on that as I would love jjp 1.0 to show back up

Quoted from Damonator:

Agree. Extremely polished...loaded, not so much. The fun factor is still there though.
I'm hoping TS has at least as many mechs as TZ, but that may be hard to do on a standard body game.

Quoted from PismoArcade:My distro contacted me asking if I still wanted a CE.
Between not seeing the game, not knowing if it's based on the entire franchise or just TS4 and the Mirco mess, I passed.
If the game looks fun and the playfield issues are resolved, I'll jump in later on an LE. For me, it's best just to wait.

Quoted from jfh:

All reasons why, despite wanting TS for years, I’m out at release. If JJP shows that things are different, I’ll look at getting one next year. But there are too many with short memories or FOMO that will gladly take the slots of those voting with their wallets that it won’t make a difference or offer any incentive for JJP to change.

Quoted from PinMonk:

That's ridiculous. If I lived there, I'd make the short jaunt up to Fort Bragg 20 minutes away and fill up for $5.99.

Quoted from zaphX:

Those of you hating on high gas prices may enjoy the EV thread...
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-i-hate-evs-thread/page/30#post-6971695

Quoted from dts:

Rivians are pretty impressive, like an EV Landcruiser, only way faster and better driving dynamics. Electric F150 Lightning is looking great too.

Quoted from Krupps4:

Sold out from distributors but not the online sale direct from JJP.

Quoted from jazc4:

If they only do 250 or even 500 CE’s, I think they are leaving a ton of money on the table.

Quoted from Krupps4:

That was my thought on the number of CEs JJP will sell direct and not the total number of CEs sold.

Quoted from Krupps4:

I think the number of CEs is a delicate subject. If they make too many CEs, they may not sell as quickly as they think. I guess what I’m saying is a lot of people are willing to drop $15,000 on something that is truly limited, such as 500 units. However, if they make 1,000 units or more, they aren’t as limited which may impact sales. It’s a psychological game with the buyers.

Quoted from MaxIsDead:

I’m in at 12.5, 15 gives me pause. So no, I am not buying it at any price. 12.5 is nuts for any pinball machine

Quoted from Richard-NBA-SF2:

Considering a CGC SE is $8,000 - $12,000 seems steep. I’ll buy a Toy Story SE if it is as good as predicted. It must be loaded and have great shots for me to buy at that price point.
I hope it is great and Pat goes out on the highest note possible!
Richard

Quoted from PinMonk:

WoZ Yellow Brick Road LEs were $11,500, and that was with a reduced BoM 3 years ago.

Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

We’ll see. JJP sold about 4k LE’s in a few days when GNR was shown. Sure TS is $2k more but since, GNR prices rose to $11.5k. I think they could sell more this time as Toy Story is a much better theme with broad appeal to all ages.

Quoted from AMSNL:

[quoted image]

Quoted from AMSNL:

Maybe they save that for the CE

Quoted from zaphX:

Wonka CE had the gobstopper.

Quoted from Only_Pinball:

Yes. 1,000.[quoted image]

Quoted from Rarehero:

Bro, of course gameplay matters - but when you want $15k, you give the customer what they want. You could make the greatest playing game ever made, but if the license was “Gigli”, people don’t wanna drop that kind of cash. You’d be getting the same reaction if it was Frozen 2, Aladdin live action, Monsters U., etc. When it comes to franchises - not every sequel/remake is beloved. You’re underestimating how much people love TS1-3 & don’t really care about 4.

Quoted from The-Hum:

That's definitely a concern to me. I would buy a protector immediately...

Quoted from Rarehero:

Official JJP Employee insults potential customers who have valid critiques of a $15k product. Cool. Keep it up, Official JJP Employee. Solid PR strategy.

Quoted from Yesh23:

Have we got any confirmation on the pricing yet?

Quoted from PiperPinball:

Lots of complainers. Like every new release.
I think its looks a like a fun shooter, and the launch ramp looks killer. Reminds me of Gophers.
This will sell out (CE's) quickly and be $30k by Xmas.

Quoted from JSC:

Will there be a LE topper to buy separately.

Quoted from jamieflowers:

The topper was different for GNR, no extra speaker.

Quoted from bigd1979:

U will b able to get a ce if u want one.. with the disappointment and 1000 being made at 15k . Wait to this mess settles and I'm betting there will be many for sale if u really want it.

Quoted from Rarehero:

$10k by Xmas!

Quoted from Damonator:

So, they shouldn't price the CEs at $19.5k then?
CEs will be $13 - $15k secondary market for a LONG LONG time. But I'm sure we'll see someone try to flip one soon for $17k. Fun times.

Quoted from bigd1979:

Heard 500 le' s were produced allready

Quoted from zaphX:

I believe I got what I wanted from this release which is smooth shots and deep code. Like Wonka.

Quoted from Palmer:

Not gonna happen. One game is about collecting tickets with lots of magical bell noises and the other is...oh wait.

Quoted from wackenhut:

No Magnets!! I think Wonka CE is going to go up, not this one. Probably should have bet on that.

Quoted from Damonator:

Because Stern likes to stay in business. This pricing level is a pretty risky move for JJP.

Quoted from JayH:

Gotta disagree with you on that. I own several Sterns and several JJP's. JJP's are clearly better built in my opinion. And true, JJP does better Marketing than Stern as well!

Quoted from DiabloRush:

I couldn't disagree more. One of the worst parts of Sterns IMHO is the flippers. Way to slappy and clunky. I *adore* the flipper feel on the Williams WPC/WPC95 titles. Both American Pinball and JJP do a fine job of providing hardware and drivers that replicate that feel. One of the things I like most on the JJP games, in addition to the stellar build quality. This may be a generational thing. Those that grew up on Sterns in the last 20 years likely consider that the standard for flipper feel. My pinball heyday was the late 70s to 90s. WPC games were the best.

Quoted from romulusx:

Damn Marco playfields and to heck with you Kenny!

Quoted from TinyBlackDog:

Come on dude. I’ve owned many WPC games and have played or owned all the current manufacturer’s games. I started collecting in the late 90s with mostly WPC. Stern flippers are the gold standard today. JJP and Spooky in particular, aren’t even close. It is the biggest issue with non-Sterns today.
All IMHO but I think this is a common opinion from pinball folks I know.

Quoted from zaphX:

"I don't like the sound package" is a valid subjective opinion.
"It sounds like a slot machine" is parroting Pinside BS talking points.

Quoted from snaroff:

Poor Steve Ritchie, leaves Stern for JJP to have a bigger BOM and then this happens. So clear that JJP doesn't have the team that Stern has. Stern is pulling it all together and JJP seems to be losing it's way.

Quoted from romulusx:

Do you work at Stern or over invested in their company or do you just love taking a side and hope the other team goes out of business?

Quoted from romulusx:

Hell no I can’t afford this game at this price!If it had been the game we all expected I would’ve possibly sold on of my gold titles to afford it.

Quoted from KornFreak28:

Any game is a shit load of fun! Hell, my old Cue Ball Wizard was a lot of fun too! The truth of the matter is that Toy Story 4 lacks a lot of stuff people were hoping for, especially for a 12-15K pinball machine.
Compared to Pirates and WOZ, this machine looks bare and lacks mechs (not to mention they based it of the worst movie in the franchise) for that price tag.
I guess we are all used to the good old loaded JJP games. Seems JJP is now going in the opposite direction, which is sad.

Quoted from Breger1:

So if I get a faulty television I should blame the parts vendor of the defective part, and not LG? lol It's still their product and they are responsible. I have had horrible CS from JJP in the past. However, I will say I sent and received an email same day this week about my POTC not starting up. Problem resolved. So let's hope this is getting turned around with them.

Quoted from flynnibus:

Casuals vs pin-heads. Very different things appeal to people and some hobbyists just can't get their head out of their butt enough to know the world includes more types than just them.
Some of our best earners are games hobbyists turn their nose up at... even some games I hate to death.. but they have the curb appeal to pull people in and the play mechanics are catered to their style enough to keep them coming back.
What works for a location can be very different than what works in a collector's basement.. which can be very different from what works in a 'gameroom buyers' basement.

Quoted from Vespula:

Someone said they have 2 lines now?
So why can't they keep rolling ts4 through the summer and split the lines for number 8 followed by announcing in December?

Quoted from flynnibus:

A pretty bad strategy when costs are so front-loaded and your product line consists of... 1 maybe 2 things to sell.
It pretty much makes you into a bang or bust company.

Quoted from iceman44:

Lol. Sounds ridiculous. One can hope.
Anything is possible. Elwin came from nowhere.
Shows you how much code matters. Can make a game epic.
Lyman is my all time favorite pinball guy. A terrible loss and tragedy.

Quoted from iceman44:

My all time favorite too. I’ve played that game by far more than any other I’ve got. Gotten to LMS several times and actually beat it twice.
And that’s the only way I could ever get there is play it a few thousand times because I’m an average player. It’s a masterpiece.
But I think BM66 and Elvira are too. Amazing

Quoted from JohnTTwo:

I really want a OZ. My selfish thinking is hey lower demand for T4 may have JJP turn out another WOZ.
What cha think? Derek do you have a WOZ?

Quoted from romulusx:

Hey genius the big difference is Cary hasn’t played the game
Most of their praise was about the looks in person and the way the game plays

Quoted from indypinhead:

I agree iceman....That's another thing that JJP brought to pinball....higher prices.
My WOZECLE was my 1st NIB pin. At that time, I was really wanting a Scared Stiff, but people were wanting around $7k. At that price, I figured I might as well buy a NIB. I found someone willing to sell their WOZECLE spot for $7.5k. I jumped on it. For what is in TS4, I think manufacturers, (especially JJP) has reached the ceiling. I guess time will tell. My CCrLE is my last NIB purchase. The hobby has gotten crazy.
Thankfully, we still have CGC...They seem to sell the best value these days, by far.

Quoted from adol75:

CGC cuts on R&D, coding, designers, marketing, pretty much everything but production and license. It's a very smart business

Quoted from indypinhead:

I agree....I don't see CGC cutting back at all on R&D. They're making classics even better.
I'm looking forward to their 1st "original title". I thing it'll be a game changer. The partnership they have w/ Rick @ Planetary has a very bright future.

Quoted from Vitty:For everyone not caring and disappointed in this game they sure do keep coming back to this thread…. I’d wager a fair number of them will have this in their collection in the future

Quoted from snaroff:

It's pathetic that a mainstream pinball company in JJP's position (making premium games) can't engineer perky flippers that don't fade. WTF?
In a home environment, it's not a showstopper, however in an arcade, it's a big deal. Nothing more frustrating that playing on location and you can't make shots because of weak flippers.

Quoted from Vernisious:

The haters are hilarious broke hoes. They wanted to buy it for 9.5 and sell it for 12. They come here to bash gameplay/layout but really just want to justify why they can't afford the going rate of sought after games. Toy Story 4 is a great game already. Just like Godzilla was right out of the gate. I wish the price was lower on a lot of games but to complain of empty playfield when people haven't played it. It's actually packed with shots. It's embarrassing and sad to constantly see crybabies bash a title they can't afford.

Quoted from iceman44:

So what everyone wants is a packed game in high demand for $12k that they can flip for $15k the next day?

Quoted from RobbyIRL5:

After playing Wonka last night, I'm not sure I miss the magnets in the center playfield that just decide your ball is over!
Not sure that additional mech makes the game any better.

Quoted from iceman44:

There are still 600 LE's on Munsters (BOM on that game MUCH less). The BOM is much higher than you think on Toy Story. You have to include all of fixed and variable overhead that goes into these games on top of the inflationary aspect to labor, materials and basically everything else.
All that said, I agree with you Tbird, these CE's are gonna drop like a lead balloon in the secondary market! And IF they do, the rest of the secondary market is going to take a little dip with it. Not gonna have one without the other.
I'd like understand how people can keep arguing that the Stern LE's are gonna keep going up, look at GZLE's with 1k quantity, STH, GB, JP, IM, DP, you name it, and the only thing going DOWN in this market is Toy Story?
And that will be in the face of very good reviews thus far. So we will see.

Quoted from PinMonk:

It's just not a super-popular layout and doesn't have many toys to interact with. They shot their BOM wad on the tilting helmet playfield that I still have no idea why it's there and what tilting it has to do with anything. I have a NIB Mando Prem coming in for mods that will be in the marketplace probably within 3 weeks or so for around $7700 - with that price idea, I'm already prepared to take a fair loss on it to move it through after mods since I have too many pins here and showing up at once right now. So if you're still in the market in a few weeks, easy way to try it out without paying too much in case your kids don't like it.

Quoted from wackenhut:

It will once the topper comes out =)
We have been patiently waiting...

Quoted from iceman44:

Watched Helicon stream and some of Buffalo. It looks really fun and addictive.
Tbird has finally given up!

Quoted from iceman44:

Not really Ptown, I’m gonna sell my MunstersLE for $18k and I’ll come out $3k ahead
The haters wanted so bad for the ad to be real they sucked it in hook, line and sinker
The reality is the Florida flipper brigade is racing to this dudes house as fast as they can with a stack of hundos! Guy shouldn’t mess around like this, get a crazy flipper show up at the door.

Quoted from iceman44:

I think the dude with the for sale ad is.
Brilliant eye catcher at $7,500 “OBO”
He’s probably topped $12k already for a local buyer!

Quoted from manadams:

DeAngelo beat game right after first warm up game, right flipper got weak on him. Zmeny in saying all the dislike in chat is forced

Quoted from snaroff:

After seeing the stream, I guess my perky flipper comment in yesterday's post wasn't so off target (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jjp-toy-story/page/93#post-6987079). JJP games have a history of complaints regarding anemic flippers - yesterday's stream is yet another example with a top player having difficulty getting the flippers to play as we would expect from a new, premium pinball product.
I have nothing against people that sell/install flipper fans, however it's a hack...period. B/W games were engineered for decades without flipper fans. Same for Stern. This is an engineering problem and the rumor that implied JJP had nailed their flipper issues is apparently wrong. Lastly, I have no bone to pick with JJP...I want nothing more than to support them with my pinball dollars. It's just hard when you don't feel like they are listening/responding.

Quoted from Haymaker:

Thats the very definition of a hack though. I don't think the term "hack" being used to describe coil fans is necessarily being used in a negative context toward pinmonks product. I think we're all in agreement that its a good product. Its the fact that they are a necessary addition to some games because of poor design (or sometimes simple physics) that make them a hack.