Boerne, TX
Both my GNR and Wonka CEs are fantastic and the PFs are perfect.
Bring on Toy Story.
Sorry Jimmy. Lol
(Topic ID: 290919)
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Toy Story 4 (CE)
Jersey Jack, 2022-
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1 month later
Quoted from EagleEd7:If toy story is announced what is the best way to get one with out having to buy it from someone that only bought 3 of them to re-sell to make a quick buck? Is there any way to get on a list now?
If you saw the pricing I’m pretty sure people won’t be buying to re-sell
Quoted from manadams:So these prices are confirmed? I thought people were just guessing.
Yeah I seriously doubt those prices are real but in today’s world of pinflation who knows
4 months later
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:SE was rumored and confirmed (pretty sure) to be gone. So you are looking at the LE for your “value” option. If I had told you in 2012 that one day JJP’s base game would be $12k, you’d have slapped my mouth. But I think it’s here so I get to slap you back.
What’s the point? Pin pricing has gone up? Last time I checked ALL manufacturers have followed suit. The price of a Stern Pro?
Never would have believed it! Premium? Nope? LE? Just crazy. Lol
Labor costs, supplies, materials, rent, insurance, etc etc. it’s called “inflation” and it’s out of control right now.
And I was there in 2012 when Jack severely underestimated the true cost of delivering a WOZ pin and nearly went down the tubes.
Stern needed investors to survive.
I remember paying 5 cents for a pack of baseball cards as a kid.
Times change.
Bring on Toy Story, all the whiners, nitpickers and complainers? A small loud vocal group.
Why? Because JJP is going to blow out sales of Toy Story. Record setting for them
And aren’t we always told that Pinside represents just a small piece of the hobby?
Here we go. Gonna be fun! 
Some folks definition of “loaded” is different.
With GNR, my idea of “loaded” fun is a pin like that, with an unreal light show and the band that actually participated to support the game 100% with some cool unique features.
If you like jamming out and playing a rock concert with great concert footage and animations, what more could you ask for?
Not every game has to be “tournament worthy” to be considered great!
The GNR total experience is fantastic. And I’ll say the same thing about Wonka
Quoted from zaphX:Wow, everyone's starting to get a little nasty in here.
Aren't we excited by a new JJP drop?
I’m with you Derek, 12k plays on Wonka, that’s crazy!
Quoted from KingBW:On the topic of CE purchase fairness - I think that JJP should do something similar to what they did with Hobbit Smaug gold. Give a date, or even end of day 1 these days, and say order a CE by this date to get one. Then just make that number of CEs. People who really want one will get one. Less flipping likely.
Just an opinion.
What’s the point of that? Just make one edition and sell it that way unlimited if you are going to do that.
JJP and Stern know that. It’s why they create an LE/CE edition, so that they can charge MORE for something “limited”
People always want something for less. Human nature
Furthermore, as evidenced by the non stop JJP bashing who knew there would be such overwhelming demand for this new release?
Sight unseen
Quoted from KingBW:Hobbit Smaug Gold is what started the CE for JJP. They gave customers a choice with a short time-line on ordering the more expensive model. I chose LE regular back then. Don't regret it. They can still have 5000 LEs. Give the customer base the choice of what they want. More profit for JJP as well. I know this won't change JJPs philosophy, but Jack got it right with the Hobbit strategy in my opinion. Just an opinion.
I bought an original WOZ ECLE for $6500 and canceled my Hobbit after the problems JJP had and the “evolution” of that game
A 5k “LE” run is NOT limited.
Either you serve the “collector market” or you don’t.
All of these companies are pushing the limits and risk bastardizing the whole process
Can’t charge what they want to charge with unlimited runs. That simple. If they could they would. Same with Stern
If they do 1,000 CEs it should be
500 Woody
500 Buzz
1k is too many I think. A ton of Wonka CEs sat for a long time.
You say Toy Story is a theme worth 1k CEs? I don’t know.
When we reach the point that people lose money on the secondary market like on Halloween, that might tamp down the FOMO next time.
$15k for folks about to head into a recession isn’t chump change. Not to mention all the other games coming out this year
Quoted from adol75:CE or not Halloween is a terrible game, that's why they lose value.
It’s not really a “terrible game” but the demand for it at that price and that many supposed “collector editions” isn’t there
Classic FOMO rush. Too many for what it is
Doubt it happens again with Spooky even though I like their games.
Quoted from Oaken:Grail plus final slot in the line up is a potent drug recession or no.
It’s a drug no matter what environment right? Tough habit to kick
Quoted from dts:1000 LEs hasn't hurt Godzilla a bit. It all boils down to how good the game is.
Elwin is the King of pinball now. He’s gonna command big $$$ now
How many Dialed In CEs are there. Everything I hear it’s a great game?
Might as well make 2,000 CEs for $20k? See how that works out.
Quoted from Damonator:They made more than 500. My distrib's GnR CE allocation was 10. Their TSCE allocation is 25.
Yeah they seem plentiful don’t they. 1k is in the cards.
In the old days we used to bitch about what a bunch of “price gougers” these guys were every time they jacked up the price.
Today, it’s let me have another ass whooping sir! 
They didn’t sell 500 Wonkas at $12,500
My distro bought a close out batch from JJP. That’s where I got mine at a discount.
When the bloom comes off the rose like it always does and the flippers move on maybe TS can hold $15k? Who knows.
I’m getting a CE and don’t really care other than interested to see where this all goes
If the CE is gonna sell out in an hour and we don’t know how many they are making or what the price is maybe JJP should just go ahead and jump it on up to $20k.
No price is too high in this market it appears
Stern needs to go ahead and bump up to at least $14k on LEs and 2,000 units with Elwin
Quoted from adol75:Dialed In is a special bird, IMO the best JJP and Top 3 in pinball history, but the game never got recognized as I think he should be.
There's one CE still for sell on Pinside, and a bunch of LE below market, both are probably the best deals one can get in pinball right now, but it's a game that needs to play a lot to reveal its true awesomeness, it doesn't pop up instantly when you play it.
I hated it for a year before loving it and buying one.
There you go, there is hope for Halloween then!
Quoted from delt31:CE at 18k sells out in a day so 15 is easy. This market doesn't think twice now below 19.5 (as 20 scares people). Simple truth.
Why doesn't jjp sell higher than 15k then? Bc they don't need to. The margin is already ridiculous. This hobby just continues to prove out how much money is out there.
It’s a business. JJP wants to extract as much $$$ out of us as they can.
Ditto for Stern.
Go ahead and take it up to $19,500 and see what happens.
Quoted from ticktockman:Gas is high but nowhere near as times in the past, relative to purchasing power:
"Gasoline cost $1.25 a gallon back in 1980, but the average worker was only making $6.75 an hour. It took the typical worker about 11 minutes to earn enough to buy a gallon of gas. Now with gas costing $4.17 a gallon, it takes a typical worker making $26.94 an hour just over nine minutes to earn enough to buy a gallon."
https://www.marketwatch.com/amp/story/the-price-of-gasoline-isnt-really-at-a-record-high-in-fact-the-inflation-adjusted-cost-of-driving-a-mile-was-higher-for-most-of-the-past-century-11646770318
Also, cars are a lot more efficient these days (my car gets over 60 miles a gallon; my wife's over 90), so relative to everything people
are not even as affected by gas as they were in 2008.
Just rode a electric tiny cab back and forth to the Jimmy Buffett concert tonight in Austin!
I drive gas guzzlers. Life is short. Do what you want
Quoted from ticktockman:Hey Hey! Austin in the house!
Down at the Fairmont. Big Crypto conference going on. Tik tok here
Greyscale sponsor.
Quoted from Thunderbird:Everyone should be considering the huge recession coming and not give into the FOMO on any pin. You can bet your bottom dollar, no matter the release, huge losses are coming in the pinball industry to all of us that purchased at extremely inflated prices. JJP selling any product at $12k and $15 is a fools game, no matter if its TS or not. People will be trying to dump them all at once at the next release and losing just like is/going to happen on GNR. That’s the problem with a small company only releasing 1 every 2 years. Resist FOMO, there will be plenty for sale after all the economic dust settles at much lower prices.With it looking like food is going to be hard to get, you won’t be able to eat TS, lol.
The Tbird is a Voice of Reason on this issue and something I totally agree with.
However, I’m ok with losing $$$ selling a pinball machine in the future. I realize that is considered heresy for some but it will be the reality at these levels.
That said, bring on Toy Story! I’m in for a CE
Quoted from bigd1979:I think many on the ce list may be surprised by how many they are making and how much it's gonna cost and end up canceling or not be a instant purchase... cld be wrong tho. WIth them making 250-500 more over g@r CE and the price point being at least 3k more I think it cld be interesting . Won't be long before we find out. It's crazy how bad jjp gets hammered after the past few releases due to quality issues /warranty claims but yet here we go ....apparently everyone has very short memories.
It does kind of stretch the imagination to think 1k of a CE at $15k will be sold through day one.
I think you are right BigD, could see some post FOMO cancellations soon after if the flippers aren’t getting any flip juice
Quoted from PanzerFreak:How are CE's sold out with this so called huge recession incoming?! That's impossible!
Because flippers need to make $$$ to pay the rent?
Quoted from cait001:This site, and much of this hobby, does not represent the average populace. Not by any metric.
Because we are mostly crazy right?
Still fun!
Quoted from DruTheFu:Before the order banks open, it would be nice for a heads up on
Show PF
Show the 2 art packages
List differences
I really don’t even need to see gameplay video at this point.
I’ll be honest, the FOMO is tugging at the strings of my TBL that should be delivered in a few months vs this TS CE. But if they go TS4, eeek
All Spicoli needs is a tasty bud and a few waves dude!
Don’t remember much about Toy Story, saw the 1st or 2nd one maybe with my kids and one of my daughters had a Jessie costume for Halloween one yr.
Def NOT a “dream theme” for me. Far from it. But I liked Road Show and think Lawlor is going to knock it out of the park.
Quoted from smokinhos:OMG.. please take my $12k for a Woody.. The whining has already started about not getting to buy your $15k CE. IT'S TOY STORY PEOPLE!
You have an Ultraman, and used to own a Teenage Mutant Ninja turtles. What’s your point
Quoted from smokinhos:Sure do.. and did. Can you seriously compare Toy Story to either? And you're a JJP fanboy. Dumped DI due to theme? Interesting. Arguably the best JJP with the fewest playfield issues.
Seriously? There is no comparison. You are right about that one 
I never owned DI due to theme.
I’m a good pin fanboy as you can see.
Quoted from Dr_Gonzo:I guess all the JJP playfield issues are forgotten...
Looks like it. Maybe it was overblown? My GNRCE and WonkaCE pfs have no issues.
Or maybe as they say, “Pinside is just a small part of the pinball community”.
And the whiners are even smaller?
Quoted from smokinhos:Hype train.. TS - greatest pinball game EVER. Dont get me wrong.. new games are cool and boost the excitement in the pinball community, but its SO over the top..
Relax dude, it’ll be ok. It’s just another game. Fun times
Quoted from manadams:Look under the washers and report back.
Already did and reported back long ago.
Also changed out the washers for future protection. . No issues
Quoted from smokinhos:Its all good. Your money... not mine.
Quoted from smokinhos:Curious why you need washers to protect a playfield? Kinda seems a little counterintuitive for $11-15k.
Put the crack pipe down “smokinhos” and go to bed. It’s the night before the big JJP release. You need your rest for tomorrow
Quoted from smokinhos:Really.. crack pipe? Nice insult. People aren't allowed to disagree with you much i bet.
Come on dude, you have been trolling all night on TS. Can’t handle a little “disagreement”? I figured you must have been “smokin” something.
Let’s see what it looks like tomorrow.
Quoted from Ty-Arnold:Maybe he really likes Crack? Might be a compliment.
“Smokin” is his name.
Quoted from KornFreak28:Would it help if I stay up all night?
There will probably be a shitload of these available right after the release Korn. Like Ultraman/Halloween.
And I have a Halloween
Quoted from smokinhos:Alright.. you win. But to the disappointment of the masses.. smokinHOs has nothing to due with smoking anything. And despite busting balls about yet another interesting choice of theme, I do hope its more than art and lights and is a fun shooter. I am somewhat shocked on how excited peeps are about TS. But not much should surprise anyone on the pinball hobby anymore.
That we can agree on! Like I said, I’m looking forward to a new Lawlor game, maybe his last.
This might be the end of these type of reveals as JJP and distributors rush to lock in sales before you see any type of gameplay.
Spooky? Nope.
JJP? If people are buying this out of FOMO it looks like it's going to end badly.
Buying it because you like it and don't mind "overpaying", then have fun with it.
I see ZERO chance they can come close to selling 5,000 of these games at $12,500. The LE might end up being the real limited edition.
The CE? They should be plentiful for a long time to come. Secondary market is going to be disappointing for the FOMO's.
Quoted from Damonator:So, they shouldn't price the CEs at $19.5k then?
CEs will be $13 - $15k secondary market for a LONG LONG time. But I'm sure we'll see someone try to flip one soon for $17k. Fun times.
Lol. You know that was tongue in cheek Damon 
Totally agree with that assessment.
Hard to believe actually. Feels a bit like the carnival on Oktoberfest?
Yeah i don't understand why anyone gets worked up over ANYBODY doing a review of ANY game including SDTM.
It's entertaining, that's it, we can see it with our eyes can't we? Form our own opinions as a result? Maybe not, I'm sure some people need to be told what to think.
There is no amount of "shilling" positive or negative that should change anyone's mind. Think for yourselves.
If the focus really was on little children, and i don't mean the big babies that we all are, then JJP is tone deaf, lacks any sort of self awareness and must be clueless about the pinball market. Which isn't the case? Or is it?
Well, I won’t be setting it next to my WonkaCE, don’t want to get confused which game I’m playing
I’ve bought too many games over the years to judge a game before dropping a few hundred plays on it. You guys know that.
As many have said, this is all about the $$$
I think it will be “fun” and “approachable” which is not good enough for most people especially for the $$$
My long term plan? I can give Wonka, WOZ and Toy Story to my 3 kids when they have my grandkids old enough to have fun with it!
Quoted from clearstar:Fair, but I think folks might me missing something big here. It may not be all JJPs fault. We can only guess what they had to spend on the licensing. Those costs are going back to us. You are buying Toy Story, not some 30-40 year old them like Jaws or BTTF. JJPs has not only given us a modern pinball machine, with good toys imo, but unlike POTC, this time we get an insane amount of assets from Toy Story. I haven't seen this many assets since Mandalorian or Godzilla movie clip wise...and this is Pixar's baby! Again, I can only imagine how much they had to pay.
Maybe you missed GNR? The band involvement and “assets” will never be better.
Quoted from PinMonk:We're talking in 2022 money, not 2019 money. Everyone wants a time machine, but they're hard to come by.
The economy is going back there. Housing, cars etc
It’s called “Demand destruction”.
Still about $1 trillion in Covid savings to still burn through. Matter of time
But I digress, don’t want to get into that discussion
Quoted from PanzerFreak:Good points. Honestly if money and space were no issue I would be buying every single JJP and Stern. None of today's modern games are really bad, ok maybe Thunderbirds lol. It's just these prices have become so hard to stomach and the higher they go the more critical potential customers are as we all want value for the money we are spending.
I could see spending $12k - $15k on Toy Story if it had a large primary mech instead of the 10" LCD but that is just me. LCD toys are cool but I think the one in Toy Story comes across as a bit to large and one that takes up valuable space for what otherwise could have been a larger mechanical toy.
Who knows I may end up with one of these one day, have bought every other JJP pin and still have 4 which I never plant to sell.
Yeah you know you are getting one Panzer! Keep fighting the good fight though.
Maybe they are looking at these Stern LEs selling in the secondary market and thinking if a Munsters LE just went for $17k maybe Toy Story is worth $15k?
JP, Elvira, Stranger Things, Godzilla, Deadpool, Batman66, Iron Maiden, Munsters, Ghostbusters, MB, AFM, MM etc what am I missing? All $15k plus.
When you get enough people whining about price that’s when you know you’ve probably squeezed out most of the flipper crowd
Too much supply at higher prices will eventually cause some “Demand destruction”
What’s next for Stern LEs? $12,500?
Quoted from Damonator:All of your examples are top 20 games that have 1/2 (or less) as many LEs made (except GZ which is *the* #1 game).
Toy Story CE is 2x as many games made and will probably settle outside the top 20.
It honestly looks like a fun game - I think the major gripe is that it costs $4.5k more than a GZLE did at launch...and all you get for that is a shooter rod and topper. Jack's original vision of "putting as much as possible" into a pinball is dead and that makes a lot of us sad.
You can’t say it won’t land in the top 5. It might end up at 50. We will see
The point is that GZLE and many other Stern LEs, some with LESS in them now sell for $15k plus
And Jack’s original vision? Is why I got back into pinball and bought a WOZ with the spinning house, witch toy, monkey mech, crystal ball, two upper pfs etc.
WOZ currently sits at #38 in the rankings, right or wrong? I like mine but …
And Munsters currently sits at #101.
So the market is what it is now and others constantly like to say, “Pinside is just a very small part of the pinball hobby these days”
Apparently that’s true. A lot of folks with a lot of $$$ outside of here don’t seem to care about the pricing of ANY games new or used
Quoted from Damonator:Well, I can say it probably will be in the top 50 - top 5? Not likely.
I see your point about price, but you may have missed mine about quantity. There are 1/2 as many JP, StrTh, GotG, EHoH, etc LEs than TSCEs. That makes a huge difference! Maybe you are thinking that the top 10 Stern LEs are undervalued in the market???
Not in today’s market. GZLE is 1,000 and in huge demand. It’s a great game.
I don’t think people care about the “quantity” anymore. That’s why DICE sells for what it does.
There are just a whole lot more buyers that came into the market the past few years to soak up the availability.
Even unlimited premiums are going for well over msrp
There are how many CCRLEs? I have one coming but can’t remember. 1,250?
If they priced Toy Story at $12,500 there would have been flipper brawls all over the place looking to get $15k or more.
At some point, maybe in the coming recession, it’s going to hit a wall.
And let’s not forget the 200 Elvira 40th that went for $25k
Not saying I like it. It is what it is for now.
Quoted from PtownPin:My guess is your spot on....just don't drink too much, and put your WW CE right next to your TS CE. You might get confused on which one to turn on as they both look the same
You stole my line Ptown! Lol
Quoted from Medic:It really sucks how JJP went with the purchasing experience. I get that recently the norm was buying machines without ever playing them. Is the new norm going to be purchasing without seeing the game? No gameplay footage before forking out 16k? I admit I made a rash decision and bought the CE from JJP. Had some buyers remorse and realized I didn’t even get to see a gameplay of it. JJP was kind to cancel my order this morning before they charged my $2500 deposit. I’m just bitter that there was nothing other than leaked images and some muted video before the website opened for orders and you literally had seconds to make a decision. If someone was on JJP waiting list they are going to be happy today. I won’t feel bad if the game ends up being great and CE Price appreciate. If a company wants to have nothing shown before I commit to 16k than it’s not for me. I hope the game does well and hopefully my next buying experience won’t be a negative one.
Why are you bitter? I get the idea that ALL companies should show the game, and give us some game play, and THEN let the pin stand on it's own merits.
But that's just not how it is today, largely because of flippers. And certain Distros are guilty of pouring gasoline on the FOMO fire.
JJP gave you your deposit back, no harm. Now you get to wait to play it later and see if you like it or not. And maybe get to buy it cheaper. GL
Quoted from MaxIsDead:I think it's so weird that those who dont like it want those who do like it to say we dont like it.
I like it. If you don't thats fine, move along to another thread.
The constant bashing of something you don't like gets annoying. Just move along.
Those of us who are here because we like it want to talk about the game.
Well, you are new here I see. Welcome to Pinside
Quoted from Beechwood:Did you just compare inflation on everyday necessities to a $15,000 pinball game?
Wow... just wow.
You, sir, are the problem.
I don’t think he’s blaming the price increase totally on “inflation” but to deny it’s an issue for the goods, supply chain issues and wage increases that go into the game is kind ridiculous don’t you think?
Especially when the Fed just came out today and raised the Fed funds rate 75 basis points, the largest hike since 1994, in an effort to tamp down rampant inflation across the entire economy. Energy affects everything.
And why would he be the “problem”?
Things cost a lot more today versus two years ago.
Now the coming job layoffs, beyond the tech sector, and wages decreases will slow the consumer spending down, 70% of the economy, making future pins cost less because of Demand destruction.
You think the game is a POS? Ok
Quoted from epthegeek:Yeah, but pinball prices following along with the inflation rate for a ‘full featured’ game - are more like where stern premium pricing is, not 12-15 grand. Cactus Canyon was $4300 retail in 98, that’s like 7800 now adjusted for inflation.
So the remake should be selling for $7800? Greedy bastards!
Your math is off considering the average inflation rate during this period was 2.5% roughly. So it would be around $8600
The market will dictate the secondary market price obviously, just like on every other high priced Stern LE or a declining pin like Halloween, whether you like it or not
maybe it’s so high they don’t actually sell through the CEs and the LEs become the lesser quantity version.
Maybe this is the tipping point time. We will find out soon
Quoted from Beechwood:Inflation 8.6%. Explain the 30% for JJp????
Over the last 18 months you think Gas, housing, food, lumber, other commodities etc have only risen 8.6%?
That measures the “rate of change”.
Put your house in zillow and check your zestimate. Think it only went up 8.6% over that period of time?
That’s how inflation works
I understand where you are coming from and why you don’t get it though.
Successful companies, with fortress balance sheets, free cash flow have pricing power to pass along the increases. Many don’t. Crypto companies are failing and laying off people right and left. Coinbase example. Netflix. Tesla. On and on
About to find out whether or not JJP has “pricing power”
Quoted from wackenhut:People buying LE's really want the game, that is a fact.
Might not be many of them though!
I blame those greedy Disney bastards for jacking up the licensing fees. Have you seen the park fee increases? Wow. Talk about inflation.
Maybe that’s why their stock is down 39% this year
Quoted from PanzerFreak:The only thing I've seen increase by 8% is a bag of damn ice lol. Everything else is way up like you said.
It might be totally different in 6-12 months. Probably will be unfortunately in some respects. Lotta job loss coming.
Either way, love it or hate this game, it’s a great part of this hobby to be able to express yourself and take a bit of a break from the real world when you get a new game dropping.
Gotta accept some realities in today’s world though.
I’m gonna have fun with it.
Quoted from hank527:Ice,
Glad your posting as your last few posts were so right on.
The issue with JJP is quality and we will see if the customer support is there for first time owners as I think there will be a lot on this title.
Hope they have learned their lesson. If you can’t/won’t support your customers it’s just a matter of time before it catches up. Might not be this one or the next one
Quoted from galore2112:Lumber is down quite a bit from January 2021 and a *LOT* from May 2021 (it went from $1480 to $560 per 1000 board feet today).
And housing will crash hard because mortgages are getting a lot more expensive as I type.
So these aren’t driving inflation right now.
The kolaches in West, TX are also still only $1/piece and ALDI totally sabotages inflation with $1 Kinder Buenos. Those were $3.99 not long ago at World Market.
Bean and cheese tacos went from .99c to $1.49!
Quoted from PanzerFreak:What's interesting is that the economy is still adding a lot of jobs (nearly 400k in May) and unemployment is still below 4%. A recession is likely coming, or we are likely already in one, but it may very well just be mild as being predicted by a number of economists. This next recession isn't going to be anything like what we saw in 08 - 09.
I would agree with that. There is a lag in the unemployment numbers. Service sector jobs are up, summer reopening travel stuff, high paying tech jobs are getting hit especially for those with no profits.
The labor market is tight because the participation rate has dropped and people need to come back to ease wage pressures.
The Fed can’t say the quiet part out loud but they will drive a recession to get inflation under control. Watch Powell today.
A “recession” is not the boogeyman and defined as 2 straight quarters of declining GDP growth.
The 2020 Covid recession lasted for 2 months
There could be some black swan events to F it all up. Energy and food crisis gets real. War escalates etc
Hard to have a recession though with tight labor market and the Fed is gonna break that.
Soft or hard landing? That’s the question of the day
Quoted from galore2112:You are getting ripped off!!!!!!
I get the good local ones, not Taco Bell, although those combo burritos back in the day were the bomb for me.
You could get a $5 gut pump in college at 2 am. The best.
And I’d have to throw the Jack in the Box Super Tacos as another all time fav!
Quoted from kool1:Soft landing seems unlikely.
Inflation issues are global and European rates are still zero, higher rates won't change supply chain issues or create more oil supplies . Fed is going to have to pound the economy and create unemployment to slow it down. They are miles behind the curve.
I’m afraid that’s right.
Fed can’t affect:
1) the supply side
2) commodity prices
3) war in Ukraine
I’d rather go ahead and rip the band aid off. Get the S&P to 3,000 pre Covid and reset the disaster of spending that lit this fire.
Value over Growth, Dividends, Fortress balance sheets, free cash flow machines, pricing power. Commodities.
Is the market down 23% ytd? Not energy. It’s up over 40%, cheap valuations and big dividends. Best performer in 2021 as well
It’s a global market of supply and demand of which the world has cut off excellent energy sources in favor of “green energy”.
Now they realize the sovereign threat of that mistake.
We will be in a decade long commodity bull market because of the structural worldwide issues with supply and demand.
While Energy now makes up 5% of the S&P 500 market cap, up from 2-3%, it represents 9% of the earnings of the S&P
I do think much of this bad news is already priced in. When the ultimate fear and panic hits again, gotta buy
What does all this mean for pinball? $9 trillion in wealth has already been wiped out this year in the markets. Some here will be happy about that.
Maybe pins are the only business in the world immune to such issues?
F it. Who cares. It fun!
Quoted from Thunderbird:TS4 GAMEPLAY IMPRESSIONS:
Watching game play is quite telling. The sounds and music came straight from a slot machine and are nondescript. Can’t tell when one mode ends or another one begins by the music and sounds, that all jumble together. There is no clear understanding of game play through the sounds and few callouts in the game. Name one pinball moment in TS4 game play? There isn’t one, its all jumbled together. Contrast that with Godzilla MB or Mecha MB, sounds, music modes all change accordingly to the mode. Player straight away knows those modes are happening: they’re in the moment.
In Gabby MB could not tell if there was a real change except her head popped up, but no other real difference in the music or sounds. It is so bad Joe K. has to verbally point it all out when it happens, because the code sounds and music do not indicate otherwise. It seems like this game was designed for little girls just like the JJP TS4 video promotes.
Watching JD play TS4, looks as if he’s playing in slow motion. With lots of bricked shots. Could only get one loop shot, even after being challenged by the cameraman to get multiple and Jack D. is a very good player!
Jack D. had a pretty good first ball from what I watched. One ball played. Lol
And the video was weak as shit. Couldn’t see much of anything.
9 minutes? Yep that’s all you need to know
The sounds? They don’t have David Thiel anymore. That’s not optimal I agree
Quoted from Thunderbird:Only comes up for guilty games and is not dumb when it’s another persons impressions.
What’s a “guilty game”? You are trying to give gameplay impressions on one ball played while not able to see shit.
I mean that is a huge reach Tbird. Nice try though. Lol
Quoted from Thunderbird:You’re only referring to JD, I’m referring to Joe K.s game play.
That was 12 minutes? And some decent play.
It takes me 50-100 games in to decide if I want to keep hitting start.
This might end up being shit but it might end up being great. I’ll let you know when I get enough time in because my opinion is all that matters to me
Quoted from Thunderbird:As it should always be! As the saying goes, “Buyer Beware”. lol
I’ve been around the block a few times. Win some, lose some.
It’s pinball so hard to lose either way.
They said the same thing, “buyer beware” when I was buying all those Stern LEs.
Seemed dumb then and seems dumb now.
The flippers (I mean the actual flippers) seem to be like every other JJP game. Thinking about pricing, what is the difference if Toy Story CE is 15K, if Wonka CE machines are going for 15K?</
Logic doesn’t matter Aaron! Come on.
People just can’t accept where the market is really at today. Might change tomorrow.
Trust JJP? Nope. But why Trust Stern either? So just buy what you like
Quoted from rotordave:Ones things for sure ….
Rising NIB prices raise all pin prices.
rd
Well RD, one way to look at it is despite rising pinball prices and all the complaining and whining, can you imagine what would happen if prices started going down?
Like a bunch of stuck pigs squealing and complaining that their “collection value” is on its way down like their 401ks which have turned into 201ks now.
So people should be happy that the pinball market is so healthy that it can absorb this huge increase versus the alternative.
Glass half full
There seems to be a ton of disappointed people with the game and pricing here on Pinside.
I get it but where are the 1,000 people that bought CEs and several hundred LEs that went delivered the first day?
There must be a whole other world of the pinball hobby outside of this place?
I suppose it’s true that Pinside is just a small part of the hobby.
It’s surprising to me that the CEs all sold through, some at higher than MSRP, and so many LEs have already been delivered.
Tough to argue with what the market is saying right now. Like it or not
Quoted from RobbyIRL5:Better question is how many people have actually played it and really don’t like it?
The reviews should start flowing in and thanks for yours. Great to hear
Will It have the addictive hit start one more time feeling. I hope so
Quoted from manadams:900 CE's went to distributors whether there are deposits on them or not, once all the CE's are made and in hands of buyers then they will be sold out. Couple hundred LE's delivered first day is not surprising with demand being higher than supply especially with a new game that little is known about.
They are “non refundable deposits” and my Distro says he has a long list of people waiting on dropouts which I had initially considered doing but not now.
I consider “non refundable” as sold out
Does anybody know of any available CEs?
The LEs? That’s cash and carry. People grabbing one after seeing the game and liking what they saw
Quoted from manadams:I personally know two people who had access to CE spots and backed out. I'm guessing if you're in tight with a distributor they will let you put the deposit to another game possibly. Not saying CE's won't eventually sell out just maybe not all above MSRP or even at MSRP.
I haven’t heard of any distributor that has any CEs available, which is surprising to me after the number and price announced
Wonka just sat there and gathered dust until my distributor bought all the remaining CEs from JJP on a close out. That’s when I got one.
I know they pissed off a very big corporate distributor by the way they handled the rollout so they said pound sand
Quoted from ZoraShinoda:In for a Bierhaus CE if they make that. Best slot machine ever!
I'll gladly take Heidi on my back glass
1000%. Great slot. Play it every time I go. Oktoberfest should have made it a Heidifest
The last thing Stern needs to worry about is capturing the LE $$$ first when they trade for big premiums in the secondary market.
Even at 1,000 LEs now people are fighting to get one.
With JJP, it would make more sense to capture that CE money although the LE is still $12k so I guess it doesn’t really matter
Quoted from manadams:I guess K man canceled his CE [quoted image]
No surprise there with Chris. Can’t flip it for a profit!
Went from boom to bust on this again?
Quoted from Thunderbird:Ice as one Texan to another, don’t believe from what I’m hearing people are fighting over the chance to buy an empty PF for a shocking $15,000.00. I hear the opposite, people cancelling all over the place. Don’t believe the deceptive salesman hype.
Honestly it’s what I would have expected regardless Tbird. Said it when it first dropped.
I don’t see how 1,000 Toy Story CEs are going to sell at $15k, and another 5,000 LEs at $12k
If they actually do, it will be a shocker to me. I bought a Wonka on close out from my distributor who bought the remaining inventory from JJP last year.
Wonka was 500 games at $12,500 and I got it cheaper and am happy with it.
I’d like to hear of any distros with CEs available?
This could end up being another Halloween sell off. Who knows.
As for the gameplay, I don’t pay much attention to anybody else in these early stages.
Some of my favorite games were shit on early. TWD, BM66, STH, and Elvira. Some more than others. Now Lyman was the common denominator of greatness on 3 of them.
So for example, how much more does Elvira or BM66 have in it? I just sold my Elvira LE for $16k because I got a deal on a 40th
How much does a BM66LE go for today? By comparison it’s a barren POS that plays awesome. The turntable mech, so what.
There is no amount of talking it up or talking it down that is going to affect what ultimately happens with TS. If it ends of being a POS then it will suffer in the market and people are gonna lose money.
As for Stern, the next price hike is already baked in. It all started with WOZ!
Oh, and I love my GNR
Quoted from underlord:HWN prices got a boost since TS4 announced. That cracked me up. Loaded pin with tons of potential, hopefully Spooky keeps the updates rolling.
Got one of those Rick. I like it a lot. Zero mechs, no pops, left side of pf is “barren”. Great theme and fun pin, especially if they get the animations and code right.
Quoted from underlord:You are a beast Amigo. Love it!
I totally get your point and others.
Can’t really put it all on JJP though.
It’s all relative, people see a MunstersLE go for $17k recently and say why not on a NIB Toy Story at $15k which they perceive as better?
Not to mention the load of pins that sell for well north of $15k on the secondary market today.
And anytime you say something like “the pinball price bubble is about to burst” it’s met with laughter and scoffing
And, “Pinside is just a very small part of a large growing hobby”
Ok, which is it then? You don’t get to cheer Stern LEs going up and then say well, that F ing JJP, these prices are whack
I might agree with all of it. Secondary market prices are gonna drop and when they do then I’d say that yep, JJP really F Ed up here on price.
Until I see that happen the market will just remain crazy. OR, maybe it’s just the new normal?
Quoted from Thunderbird:The point is, that $17,5k price for Munsters was not MSRP set by Stern, but the insane price of $15k was set by JJP.
And JJP is setting their pricing based on the shit they see in the secondary market.
That simple.
So instead of selling Toy Story for $12,500 so Chris can flip it for $15k they put it where it is.
As for “value” and beancounters? Jack was running the company into the ground. Without the bean counters and investor there would be no more JJP
Quoted from jeffgoldstein2:They are shooting themselves in the foot.
Maybe so. I heard that a lot every time Stern jacked up their prices. BM66 and what they did with the LE and SLE bring back memories? Amongst many other hits
But we aren’t in a “bubble”, no such thing.
Quoted from manadams:[quoted image]
Lol. Sounds ridiculous. One can hope.
Anything is possible. Elwin came from nowhere.
Shows you how much code matters. Can make a game epic.
Lyman is my all time favorite pinball guy. A terrible loss and tragedy.
Btw, JP Dewin, the Elwin of animations. Half way there. Put that in your pipe and smoke it
Quoted from PtownPin:Terrible loss.....what he did on TWD dead was incredible...its now my fav pin
My all time favorite too. I’ve played that game by far more than any other I’ve got. Gotten to LMS several times and actually beat it twice.
And that’s the only way I could ever get there is play it a few thousand times because I’m an average player. It’s a masterpiece.
But I think BM66 and Elvira are too. Amazing
Quoted from Thunderbird:In contrast, here’s an honest TS4 review from a guy that’s one of us, not like those 2 flimflam sales clowns SDTM….
Hardy the self promoter wearing his own Hardy shirt and hat.
What’s his motivation? Sell the controversy and hate to boost his you tube subs. Hasn’t even played the game.
Is it worth the money? Neither is that line of pins behind him sitting in that ridiculous looking gamer chair
Talk about flimflam blow hard sales guy! Lol
Quoted from metallik:And the other dudes' motivation is to sell games and boost their subs.
Seems that the winning move is to simply not watch youtube... just play it yourself and see what you think.
I would think that’s what most people do. I decide if I like it based on what i see. Then if I play it enough and it doesn’t click it goes. Doesn’t happen often.
I guess there is a slew of people that need to be told what to do and think.
Quoted from blacklightprod:Don’t say that your comments have way to much TRUTH and HONESTLY… this will get you cancelled. What a brave man you are my friend. Your comments wave in the face of the narrative being spewed.
Everyone saying the game is terrible hasn’t played it. Everyone who initially didn’t like it played it and loved it.
What else can you say other than GO PLAY THE GAME.
People want to hate on the game because the price, but when you ask a question like well then why is Jurassic Park 20k, or the hated Munsters 18k you hear crickets. If we’re to hate a game merely because of the price then I’m guessing there isn’t a single fan of Big Bang Bar right? C’mon so you don’t like the price but go play the game and review the game based on the game itself. Simple.
Like I’ve said, you can complain about price but when Stern LEs are selling for $15k plus it’s gonna fall on deaf ears.
It’s the “market” right now. Like it or not. Start deflating everything else and you’d have a good argument.
For now, it’s “crickets”, can’t have it both ways. Not that tough to understand.
If Toy Story doesn’t sell at these prices then that’s on JJP. We will see
Quoted from jfh:Good God man - give it a rest. You’re just flailing your arms like a lunatic now.
He’s not wrong though. I see a lot of lunatic arm flailing hate going on too which is fine with me, who cares but…
The price arguments are coming from the same people selling pins in the “marketplace”for bloated prices.
That’s a fact
Quoted from indypinhead:Totally agree....But had it not been for JJP, Stern would have never upped their game. At least we have that to be thankful for.
As for JJP, it's obvious that the "bean counters" call the shots these days. Jack's initial vision of fully loaded, modern technology pins is just that....a vision. The old days of JJP are apparently over. That's sad...
It was over 10 years ago with WOZ Indy. $6500 was unheard of then for a new game.
Jack said he wanted WOZ to be the least innovative game they make.
Not sure why people forget the outrage over price increases for the past decade every time it happened to now
I can remember people being pissed an AC/DC premium was going up $200. $6,400 if I recall.
Every single LE increase people bitched and moaned and laughed at those of us that kept buying them.
Demand, flippers and these guys making great games have caused prices to soar for the past decade.
Look at the Pinside Marketplace, it’s not one or two examples, it’s across the board and that right there is why prices are where they are at today.
Stern will 100% raise prices again.
It’s only gonna end when buyers stop buying in BOTH the NIB and used market.
Maybe this time it’s game over?
I think it is. The $15k mass produced pin market isn’t sustainable long term. I don’t care how much is in a game.
The “price bubble” is gonna burst. Grapple with that one
Quoted from indypinhead:I agree iceman....That's another thing that JJP brought to pinball....higher prices.
My WOZECLE was my 1st NIB pin. At that time, I was really wanting a Scared Stiff, but people were wanting around $7k. At that price, I figured I might as well buy a NIB. I found someone willing to sell their WOZECLE spot for $7.5k. I jumped on it. For what is in TS4, I think manufacturers, (especially JJP) has reached the ceiling. I guess time will tell. My CCrLE is my last NIB purchase. The hobby has gotten crazy.
Thankfully, we still have CGC...They seem to sell the best value these days, by far.
The good old days. Yeah I’ve got Cactus coming and Bond will probably be my last one. Famous last words.
I’ll never forget that feeling of buying a LOTRLE on close out from Automated back then for $5,200, while waiting for WOZ, after getting it set up I thought WTF am I doing spending that much $$$ on a pinball machine.
The insanity, and rationalizing it, is off the charts!
Quoted from Colehvac1:You would feel differently if you supported them the way some of us did behind the scenes, 1000s of dollars,100s of hours and then one day when you need a small amount of any kind of reciprication they turn their backs,they are aonewayonlycompany now,and im not talking aboutjack, i knowjack is a stand up guy, im talking the current JJP
What they did to Lloyd is BS
What does Ken Cromwell bring to the table? Higher prices and terrible “marketing”? Since he came on board this is what we get?
Let’s go all in. Pat Lawlor should be fired and retired for making such a piece of shit lack of innovation game.
Quoted from seenev:Whenever they trot out Pat Lawlor in interviews, I cringe. The guy is a legend but he's so past his prime that you wonder if he can even play pinball anymore. He talks slowly and certainly doesn't seem like he'd have the reflexes to play a fast shooting game, but we're supposed to think that this guy who crawls through every sentence on camera is innovating pinball? Does anyone think he even saw Toy Story 4 before being assigned this project?
It was tongue in cheek for me re Pat.
The pricing structure? I’d like to know who was driving that bus and I don’t want to hear “bean counters”
The whole management crew is responsible.
Still doesn’t excuse the level of whining and crybaby ranting
Quoted from wackenhut:So I spoke with someone at Pixar and I guess the license to get the Cake Toppers was pretty expensive lmao
I really hope some operators get this game near me, cause I definitely want to play the game. The Five dollar bill is burning a hole in my pocket. Really good value in terms of a return on my investment with 16min ball times.
The only reason people are bashing the game is that it did not live up to the hype. No-one is saying they will not play the game, I am sure it is a lot of fun. All we are saying is that we do not need to spend 12 or 15k to enjoy it =)
I looked at my GNR CE today and it is truly a masterpiece even with the game turned off. Probably one of the most beautiful machines ever and well thought out. Playfield issues or not, 15K for a true piece of art =)
The people at Jersey Jack said that they worked hand in hand with Disney/Pixar, but they did not say with "who". Definitely not someone like Slash!
GNRCE is a blast to play and gorgeous piece of art!
500 at $12,500 works
Really don’t need to spend $15k on any game if you have a good location nearby.
Wondering what I’m doing
Quoted from zermeno68:Too much issue with the price. I get it and it sucks JJP did it without making “justifiable” reason from the perspective of customers.
For argument sake…. What is a respectable price the LE/CE should have been?
Reasonable? $13k (includes shipping) for CE and limit it to 500
Make another unlimited edition for $10,500. Might as well call it that anyhow. 5,000 is basically unlimited.
There is no such thing as “collector” edition anymore with Stern and JJP.
1,000 units of anything? Nope
In a HUO environment there is a “collectibility” element in why some people buy. They don’t play their games every day
Greed is gonna kill the golden goose
There might be a ton of these CE slots up for grabs Over the summer.
May be time to go back to mostly location pinball and away from HUO, good for ops
Quoted from rai:Maybe at $9k/$12k I would’ve considered it.
It’ll give new meaning to the old saying $10k by X-mas.
So what everyone wants is a packed game in high demand for $12k that they can flip for $15k the next day?
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:Just becuase you think prices are too high, doesn't mean you shouldn't take advantage of it.
Same with the stock market, if you think prices are too high - you stop buying and start selling
I agree with you on that one, Just like the stock market, what goes up can and will come down. Pinball "price bubble"
If i wanted to take advantage of it i'd sell all my Stern LE's right now like you said. Could never sell my TWDLE!
But this is a hobby, meant to be fun.
For now, it's also fun watching the drama play out!
"It's just where the market is".
People are having a tough time coming to grips with that fact. Like it or not. I understand it's crazy and ridiculous but it is what it is for now. It doesn't seem to be coming to a screeching halt yet.
Here's a good example, Thunderbird was over in the Munsters thread pumping up the LE sale at $17,500 and saying it's going a lot higher because of how great the game is. I have one, and I love mine but............... $17,500 and up?
THAT is the problem right there. Yes prices are insane but people now EXPECT to buy a game for X and sell it a LOT higher for Y.
What did you think was going to happen? The "money grabs"? Take a peek at the Pinside Marketplace. It's not one or two, it's across the board.
The idea that a pin manufacturer has gone there price wise is shocking, or is it?
Quoted from Thunderbird:Well my friend Ice, not pumping pillaging and plundering by any stretch, lol. $17,5k for any game is madness. In the case of Munsters no more are being made, so like POTC, all those that want one now are going to get plundered, which will stop if we all say no. Just like TS4’s insane pricing. If we say no, JJP will rethink their game plan. It’s because of FOMO that so many are suckered into every and any title. Come on LOV? That’s proof alone, but its price is not as crazy as TS4. Price is a feature and many would be fine with higher prices if there was an equivalent BOM to match. JJP is charging sky high prices with what can’t be more than a $1000 - $1500 BOM, if that, plus one programmers time, Joe K. As a hobbyist community, we need to be willing to walk away, only then will all the crazy scalping stop, even when the main scalpers are the maker.
But think the real suckers are the poor distributors, as most of these titles have not been sold through, but are still at the distributors warehouse. You purchased a discounted JJP machine from a distributor sitting on inventory. Watch this same thing unfolding in the future for TS4, which is definitely not sold out at all.
There are still 600 LE's on Munsters (BOM on that game MUCH less). The BOM is much higher than you think on Toy Story. You have to include all of fixed and variable overhead that goes into these games on top of the inflationary aspect to labor, materials and basically everything else.
All that said, I agree with you Tbird, these CE's are gonna drop like a lead balloon in the secondary market! And IF they do, the rest of the secondary market is going to take a little dip with it. Not gonna have one without the other.
I'd like understand how people can keep arguing that the Stern LE's are gonna keep going up, look at GZLE's with 1k quantity, STH, GB, JP, IM, DP, you name it, and the only thing going DOWN in this market is Toy Story?
And that will be in the face of very good reviews thus far. So we will see.
Quoted from manadams:[quoted image]
Very clever.
I guess I got it right on every Stern LE I bought?
So that makes batting about 10-1. I’ll take it. Check that, let’s go 23-1, I’ll include every game I currently have. That’s about 96% for the mathematically challenged.
Let’s tally up the results Flipper.
Next up, let’s cheer the Stern LE that Elwin is doing, Jaws, 1,000 units for $15,000
Or should it be $17,500 Tbird?
Quoted from Thunderbird:Well you’re totally wrong about that one Pinmonk. The layout is a Brian Eddie layout and is sooooo fun to shoot. Numerous interactive toys. It’s a go to machine for many of us. The code is stellar, so you’re up in the night on that one. Would have guessed you’d spear Stern, as you pump anything JJP. Your motive is becoming much clearer now…his kids will love it, just like mine do. It’s an exciting fun shooter with awesome shots and toys. Your comments about the upper PF show how clueless you really are. I’d stick to making high priced fans for JJP extreme flipper fade issues, instead of becoming a clueless reviewer, lol.
You and flipper Adams are sounding like Stern super pumpers! He’s def part of the problem flipping those games
And if you don’t think Steen has flipper fade you haven’t played em much.
STH? That Demo shot becomes impossible after 20-30 minutes without PinMonk cooling fans
Quoted from yancy:DOES THE SHARK EAT THE BALL?!?
Good point. I’m sure it does. Should be at least $17,500 because of Elwin and to match the Tbird Munsters pump
Quoted from Thunderbird:Hoping Stern doesn’t stoop to price scalping/gouging like they did on Beatles. They’ve been in business a very long time and know what goes ups, eventually comes down. Consumers have a very long memory, if they’ve been skewered like JJP is doing to everyone right now. When times get tougher, the zero “good will” JJP is creating, will come back to haunt them, big time.
Actually consumers are fickle, especially pin heads, they have zero memory.
JJP pf issues? Stern new pf issues with Rush?
Stern has F Ed up many times including the GB pf fiasco. Shit quality garbage mechs like the Sarco mech on IM etc
Did they price gouge on Elvira 40th? BM66 was considered a JOKE of a gouge at the time. Had to present an essay on why you deserved an super SE. pathetic
Eric puts out a game next with any “mech” and people will be crawling all over themselves to buy one. Even Flipper Adams
Quoted from Thunderbird:Well aren’t we just JJPs #1 cheerleader today…all your Stern LEs will hold, so don’t worry Ice…
…but just maybe JJP doesn’t care about creating any good will, as they just might be trying to sell the company to some deep pocket sucker, as Abbot’s surely have had enough by now…with the recession hitting, get rid of liabilities like JJP.
I’m not cheerleading anybody today Tbird.
My GB pf was never replaced through GEX. It has some minor ghosting but I didn’t push it because it didn’t get worse. And it didn’t stop me from buying every future game I wanted.
The hypocrisy on “pricing” is hysterical though. It’s coming mostly from disappointed “flippers” I think
I don’t really care what happens to Toy Story pricing after the fact, although after seeing the positive reviews thus far maybe it holds value or drops a little bit
Quoted from Wariodolby:Just saw Lightyear,pretty ok movie.
Definitely takes the bottom spot for Toy story franchise.
Good news is Toy Story 4 is no longer the worst one!
This pin is getting better every day.
Disney has some terrible management right now and Chapek needs to go. The stock is getting pummeled down 40% ytd
As disappointing as the Buzz Wokeyear movie has been at the box office, they have a major ESPN problem.
They paid way too much for multi year sports packages and the bleed grows every day. They need to start with unloading that albatross if anyone will take it, or spin it off somehow
Quoted from romulusx:Wokeyear????
Got it Nevermind
Watched Helicon stream and some of Buffalo. It looks really fun and addictive.
Tbird has finally given up!
Quoted from PtownPin:u need to drink the kool-aid if your in for $15K+
Not really Ptown, I’m gonna sell my MunstersLE for $18k and I’ll come out $3k ahead
The haters wanted so bad for the ad to be real they sucked it in hook, line and sinker
The reality is the Florida flipper brigade is racing to this dudes house as fast as they can with a stack of hundos! Guy shouldn’t mess around like this, get a crazy flipper show up at the door.
Quoted from PtownPin:That a boy! Now your a flipper
I think the dude with the for sale ad is.
Brilliant eye catcher at $7,500 “OBO”
He’s probably topped $12k already for a local buyer!
Note that he’s trying to sell a Black Knight premium for $12k, another joke
Quoted from Thunderbird:Hey buddy, not giving up. Still stunned that TS4 has tanked already. Like this guy said: “We’ve had enough! It’s not what we expected. Get it out of here!”. That says it all!!!! Lololo!
[quoted image]
Always said this would not be worth any more than a pro and yet he priced it over $500 higher. He might struggle to sell it at $7,500.00.
Oh man Tbird, you are late to the fake news party brother! Gullible
Comedy gold tonight. Fun times. 
Quoted from RobbyIRL5:I don't think it will lose value unless the entire marketplace drops. This is not a shitty game (quite the contrary) and people stuck on the "lack of mechs" are going to be the minority as more people play it. It's a great pinball.
That’s the point I’ve been trying to make 100 different ways. They still don’t grasp it. The market is what it is right now, like it or not.
And I agree the pin looks really good. You have one right ?
Quoted from Thunderbird:Update on TS4 streaming: Karl worked on TS4 what seemed like forever and said it was the upper flipper was binding some…then after putting it together again, said its still weak as hades. Now he’s taking it apart again! Ha!! He said only 40 games on, shouldn’t mean flippers are totally weak… In frustration he puts the table back together a 2nd time and says, that’s about all I can do tonight.
Wow, TS4 might be a bigger shooting problem than we all thought….
Now Karl is trying again in vain to play on, but says it just won’t hold up. Maybe TS4 will hold value around a used pro at $5500 or even a Home Edition at $3999 (maybe that’s too low though)? Just wondering?
…most consistent shots are roll backs of balls that won’t make the ramps…
Update.
As I’m watching, no the flippers aren’t weak.
Had to dial the power down the left flipper.
Upper flipper binding and working good now.
Right flipper also working fine now after adjustment again.
Most depressing part? Karl is too good.
Quoted from reffob:"I'm gonna have to tear apart that flipper mech completely...."
Karl at 10:22pm PST
That’s what it looks like. Issue with it. Broken spring? Left flipper good
No issues with either flipper on Helicon or Buffalo stream I watched.
Yeah I would pick GNR too but he said it was too early to call for him
Quoted from Thunderbird:Wait buddy Ice, we can’t be watching the same stream. Karl just gave it up in total frustration, because of all the poor quality flipper problems, jump ramp not working, issues with not being able to make the ramps. Take off those rose colored JJP glasses, you can’t see very well it appears, lol!
Fake news Tbird!
Left flipper too strong.
Wasn’t sure about jump ramp
Right flipper has issues that weren’t there in other streams.
Give it up Tbird! Take off the haterade glasses.
You have zero credibility when you pump MunstersLE as worth much more than $17,500
Sorry buddy. The Stern pumper bias is fine but I like em both. And I have no bias like you do
Quoted from Thunderbird:LOLOLOLOLO! Ice, have you become the ultimate JJP suck up? That flipper was the worst. He could not make the ramps or do much of anything from the left flipper. You’re dreaming again or had too much to drink, LOL!!!
Wtf are you talking about? He got 48 mill on his first game. You are full of shit with the left flipper nonsense.
You obviously didn’t watch it. He dialed the power DOWN on the left flipper.
He’s gonna have to fix that right flipper mech.
I heard and watched the whole thing. You are totally biased with no credibility my friend.
As much as I like my MunstersLE when you say things like this one has to wonder what you are smoking?
“Selling for $17,500.00…and worth every penny. People are beginning to discover what they’ve missed out on. Munsters will continue to go up in value to the chagrin of the past pinside pitch forker’s and stoners. LOL!”
That is some serious Stern pump brother !
Objectively, it looks like a fun game, especially for an average player, it’s a more simple shooter like Munsters, Elvira or BM66
The pricing, I’ve said it many times already. No game is worth that $$$ including this one, but this market is crazy and in a “bubble”.
Quoted from Thunderbird:Zero credibility says my buddy from Boerne who also defended Deep Root as being legitimate to the bitter end….
Lol. Read your Munster words. Sounds ridiculous don’t you think?
Quoted from Thunderbird:Wow, I’ve got so many Deep Root thread words from you, that if you re-read just a tenth of your comments, you’ll think more than “ridiculous”! Too funny Ice, too funny…
That’s all you got? Go on back over there to that nut job DR thread and help em solve the conspiracy mystery puzzle. You’ll fit right in.
Duh, doh, Deeproot
Keep making a fool out of yourself here. The more you talk you are removing all doubt
Quoted from PinMonk:Sorted already. Turns out the right flipper didn't have a coil sleeve installed.
Well Thats an inconvenient truth now isn’t it?
Love those coil fans!
Quoted from manadams:You say you want constructive feedback but admit you love JJP pins so what that really means is tell me only positive things to reassure my purchase. I get the love and defense of this company because they were the first to challenge Stern and bring much needed innovation to pinball but you have to call out mistakes when they make them. Choosing the fourth movie theme and charging 12k plus for less mechs/toys were mistakes. Some decisions are polarizing like the code simplification and sound, seems like some people like it and others don't. Game does shoot well and looks fun but will the enjoyment last long enough for people to buy it and keep it in their collection, time will tell.
Sums it up pretty well and rationally!
Quoted from snaroff:Just to be clear, PinMonks flipper heat research and fans have helped the community immensely! An incredible asset to the hobby/community. I don't want that to be confused with my rant (which is really focused on the manufacturers, NOT the modding community).
GNR and RaM are the only pinball machines I've owned that had such bad fade that required fans. My adhoc off-the-shelf mini-fan does a great job eliminating fade on RaM's lower flippers. Since the board attached to the center of the PF also generates a ton of heat (which can be felt topside), this fan helps cool the PF in general. Nevertheless, PinMonk fans work great...no doubt. I just think pinball manufacturers need to do better, that's all. The more we put bandaids on problems, the less motivated they are to fix the problems.
[quoted image]
Without them on STH it became unplayable after a while. You really notice it if it’s off a hair and you can’t make that Demo shot
Great job Pin Monk
Lol. Yeah we are just having some fun with poor old Tbird. He’s a good but misguided dude.
Have to admit to it was pretty funny when Carl found the missing coil sleeve right after the stream!
“price is relative”. Like it or not. And I don’t but it is what it is right now
Seems to be the biggest obvious gripe
Quoted from delt31:Toy Story 4 Hands On Impressions (after playing it for an hour or so). Shout out to @helicon brewery in Pittsburgh. Best pinbar period.
Toy Story 4 - Home edition. It's my new name for this game after seeing and playing it in person.
If this was JJP's new line of games, similar to stern's and was priced accordingly, I would think about buying it. It's fun. It shoots well. But it's obviously been stripped down so that it fits under the new home edition line that JJP kicked off for this......oh wait - no, this game is 12-15k. What is going on here? Didn't they work on this game for two years+?
And so the cycle continues. My initial impressions and now having hands on with this game is that it's too expensive and it's WAY too easy (which was surprising to me). More on that later but anyone that gives you their impressions and doesn't talk about cost to value is either a distributor selling you the game, a hype machine that appears to be giving impressions but is still just selling you the game or a pinball collector trying to convince themselves they didn't make a mistake.
But....Toy Story 4 is not a bad game by any means. It's does a lot of things well and if it was coupled with old school JJP mechs and about 3k more of BOM, this could have been something really good. Unfortunately, it's just so clear that JJP is testing out the market and stretching those margins as much as they could. It's simpler literally in every way and could have been so much more satisfying. Here are the quick hits of what works and what doesn't, along with some general observations:
+Great call outs. I really enjoyed Tim Allen's work along with Tom's brother. When I think about Pats other similar game (Wonka), TS4 is stronger although Wonka has the worst narrator in modern pinball history only remediated by the CE edition which thankfully brings in someone else to offset.
+Shoots well and is fun. Oh the most cliché phrase in pinball that evidently now costs 12-15k, it truly does shoot well and is fun to play. Never doubted that either. It's way more open than Pat's other two however I still enjoy shooting Wonka more and DI would be third just b/c of that moving target so close to the flippers but all three are really fun to shoot. No one does a better captive ball than Pat. Loved it on Wonka, love it here too.
+Code is straight forward and very easy to follow. It was quite refreshing walking up to a new JJP game and having no questions about what to shoot. Call outs tell you what to shoot, that ipad in the back corner also tells you what to do, etc. Now, on the flip side, this led to a really simple experience that I'll outline in the negative column but if they're targeting kids with 12-15k to spend or really bad pinball players like myself, mission accomplished.
+I liked some of the music - friend in me and some others worked well with the modes.
+I enjoyed the forky combo task. Satisfying to hit all three in a row.
+I'm a sucker for hot rails and glad they continued to use them. Looks good especially on the fireworks (wizard).
+Kaboom shot is cool - although not as exciting as a thought it would be, still a plus. NGG Hole in One takes it for sure as the ball really doesn't seem to get that high however it's such a quick little shot that is pretty easy to make.
+Speaking of, great sound effect on the kaboom shot. however
- The game has some of the worst sound effects I've experienced ever in pinball. Wonka was close but the crown has been passed to TS4. The left spinner (bell) and right spinner (Woody's shuffle) take the cake for the worst offenders. Problem is they go off all the time.
- Biggest surprise for me is how easy this game is. I'm not very good at pinball and after my 10th? game I was already at the wizard mode. Now I understand there are two wizard modes and the second required me to play through it all again. For me, that is very unsatisfying and I instantly stopped playing only to see if I could get that virtual pinball mode since I didn't see it yet. Good players and up will absolutely smoke this game. Why?
- B/c the shots are waaaaaay too open. The left and right ramp are insanely easy to hit. I understand JJP is targeting a younger crowd but this is why, along with the complete lack of mechs, I believe this would be a great home edition game. The scoop is easy too. The hardest shot BY FAR is the skill shot on the plunge. At first I was going to have this as a plus but after achieving it (two times only), it just wasn't satisfying. I will give credit to Pat that the geometry to even get this to work is impressive so I left it as neutral for now.
- Absolutely no mechs. I know - obvious but so gut wrenching when you actually see it in person and realize they put little lights around a really cheap ipad screen and just threw it into the playfield. The screen is massive - the section it takes is huge and it absolutely sucks. No problem reading or seeing it though - angle on it was fine. The cheap cake topper toys are so embarrassing and I don't even know what to say about that horrendous cheap plastic thing over the left ramp return. What in the world were they doing for two years????Mods can't come soon enough but for 12-15k, what do you expect? They already gave you two spinners and speech from three people! Buy Buy Buy!
- Main screen is the simplest I've seen from JJP yet. Due to the IPAD, there probably wasn't a need to make the other giant screen as extravagant as it usually is. Compared to wonka, it's so simple and muted. Sad to see. Not the coders fault I guess - there just isn't a need for two screens unless you're trying to reduce cost.
- That little upper right flipper is the biggest disappointment for me gameplay wise. It just doesn't feel good and the lack of full size is apparent on every flip. I guess they couldn't get the big one to fit the layout but it doesn't have that same kinetic satisfaction. My best comparison is the loop on maiden with the top left little flipper. Yes it works and gets the job done but it doesn't pack the same punch. btw - that shot can hit three....scoop (hard), captive ball (not hard) and full loop (harder than it should be). Kick out to the left flipper is OK although a little wonky some times.
- Shots on the left side feel very boring. The left ramp is so wide open it's comical. There is a left target shot that just falls flat and that ball lock shot on the left is fine but that's about it. That IPAD on the left just really takes the life out of it and is such a missed opp. Speaking of the ball lock on the left....
- Super lazy ball lock - compared to other JJPs, I just got no satisfaction seeing the locks occur. Compared to wonka's lock, it's just so much simpler and less satisfying. Common theme throughout this game.
- Some asset comments.....the videos have no speech at all compared to wonka which at least had some synch to video work like Wonka's office. This might change with updated code but I doubt it. Also seeing the characters we all wanted more of (like Mr. P, slinky dog, etc) as collectable after beating a mode and just seeing them static, is almost a tease. Getting TS4 vs 1, 2 and even 3 - such a disappointment. Wonka at least had the original movie we loved.
- Modes are super straight forward and lacked creativity. One mode was hit the giant left ramp 3 or 4 times. Sweet. Yes, the wizard mode was better and there are some others but majority just left me bored and with the lack of anything wowing my eyes, I almost turned the machine off after reaching wizard mode 1 b/c doing it again was boring.
- Carnival theme is WAY too much. It felt like I was playing a carnival game with guest star TS characters. When the road trip MB hits, it's so satisfying to get away from the Carnival atmosphere.
- Virtual pinball on the ipad was absolutely terrible. Framerate was low, physics felt off, everything about it was bad and it just reminded me of what could of been .
- Save the most important for last.....COST. So much taken away and still asking for 12-15k makes this a nonstarter for me. With no mechs and a really easy layout, I predict prices will fall hard on this game, making that upfront NIB sting even more.
General:
:Drain heavy big time on the left outlane. If you end up getting unlimited kickback, the game becomes even easier. Right outlane as well. I maybe had two balls go sdtm - very very few.
:Gabby didn't register on the left, just the right.
:PF had no art along the posts and clear washers. Didn't see any damage yet but brand new.
:Flippers felt exactly the same as other JJPs. Don't be fooled by the hyper machines.
Cliff notes?
Quoted from yancy:It's a hands-on review, with detailed & specific praise/criticism, the thing everyone claims to want. Read it. Or just wait & play your game, whichever.
Wash, rinse and repeat. I consider the source. Delt plays “an hour or so” and he’s got it figured out. BS. It took him longer than that to write the review
Zero chance it fits your collection style from what I see. Justification is important though. Bash what you don’t have and what you can’t get
Most important? All you had to say was “COST”. I agree
From someone that isn’t buying a game and flips them like Halloween candy, “we deserve better”
You don’t deserve anything. Nobody does
So jump off your high horse
P
Quoted from rob3:Caucasian2Step has weighed in, most ratings on pinside, so worth a look.
https://pinside.com/pinball/machine/jjp-toy-story-4-le/ratings
For all those who haven’t played it yet it’s worth a read. Bottom line - you have to play it before you buy into all the bs above (for better or worse). Then form an opinion.
Hopefully people can see through the bias and judge for themselves. Watch the streams and decide based on what you see with your own eyes. Should be enough said
If you buy this game or don’t buy it based on some reviews from people that have played “for an hour” then you are destined to learn a lesson the hard way.
I know, been here a long time and learned the hard way myself a few times.
Take a look at the “collection” and what was owned in the past
The cost? It’s all relative isn’t it. Hypocrisy is off the charts
The flippers? No issues on Wonka, WOZ and GNR for me, and you aren’t Elwin. Pin Monk and new JJP board claim to have made the strength better. Witnessed it on the streams myself but only means something based on your personal play.
The PF? No complaints so far? I hope that stays that way. Stern has relapsed with Rush
The good news, another game is right around the corner if you don’t like this one.
Price higher? Guaranteed
Quoted from jfh:I’m sorry, Munsters is much better than TS4.
Munsters is really good. Another one that the haters bombed for a LONG time, still do
It’s also reflected in the price, costs more than Toy Story. $17,500 now for an LE
I would call BM66 and Elvira “simple shooters” too, great Lyman pins
Quoted from zermeno68:Sweet!! I look forward to watching this tonight. maybe replay mode. In the hospital playing the waiting game for baby #3.
It’s a different ball game after #3 and you are outnumbered. Gotta go to the zone defense. I’ve got 3 girls.
GL. Best thing in the world!
Quoted from PtownPin:I don't buy it (and yes its a guess)...many other companies are building games with more mechs and higher BOM's (i.e CGC). CGC's CCRLE is $9200 versus JJP's $12K so its not about JJP maintaining margins its all about increasing margins. This was a historic money grab by the "new" JJP
It might be but would you call the pins being sold in the “Pinside Marketplace” as historic money grabs?
Looks like both JJP and Stern see what’s going on. It’s easy to see with our own eyes.
Is the unwritten rule that companies can’t take away the “flipper profit”?
Maybe it backfires on all of them eventually.
I’m gonna go with it’s a title by title phenomenon in the future.
What’s an Elwin Jaws LE gonna be priced at?
Should MSRP be $11k so flippers can turn them for $20k right off the top? Ever since the Metallica LE debacle Stern has been playing catch up
Maybe like JJP, 5,000 “LEs”. It all get ridiculous at some point and maybe we are there.
Quoted from PtownPin:I guess your point is who makes the profit, which is a very fair point. JJP's strategy is to claim most if not all of the flipper profit short term! Time will tell if thats good business or not....my guess is we've reached the breaking point, and sales #'s for JJP will be way down.
I agree with that Ptown. The Toy Story 4 theme was a major letdown for most.
Raising the price to $15k and 1,000 units from $12,500 and 500 units was a bit crazy but I get why they did it. Plus they aren’t like Stern pumping out games. It’s been 18 months since GNR which has been their biggest seller, beating out WOZ.
It looks like a really fun game but their shouldn’t be any FOMO rush to go grab one unless you it’s a dream theme, you have kids, etc etc
Stern has been much “incremental” in their price increases but they have come a long ways also
Quoted from big-c66:Man just got through reading post from the last 2 days it took a little while but wow people were going at it. I found myself agreeing n disagreeing at times n laughing at different times n going man that’s not nice but damn I enjoyed it not a dull moment. Lol
And that’s what it ought to be, entertaining and “pedantic”.
Laugh a little bit and have some fun discussing a new pin. None of it is gonna change anything.
Quoted from PtownPin:My guess is a fairly high percentage of buyers purchase these games sight unseen thinking theres zero risk in the purchase. If they don't like the game they just flip for a profit (mainly LE's and CE's). JJP doubled the CE numbers and eliminated the flipper profit right out of the gate so my guess is sales will be down due to the fiscal risk to the flippers regardless if the game is good or not.
Yeah I agree with that. I don’t see how they sell 5k “LEs”
And the CEs, even after the reveal, I talked to my Distro today getting update on Cactus LEs and he said a couple of guys bailed and they were filled by his waiting list with a deposit?
I think there is still some disbelief going on that a new pinball machine can really lose value.
It shouldn’t matter if a CE ends up in the $12k range but in this market, who knows
A ton of games start out hated and go on to be great as more people play them and code develops.
Quoted from Damonator:And compared to what most of us have lost in the stock market this year, losing $3k seems like a bargain. At least you get some enjoyment out of it.
Lol. Ain’t that the truth. Instead of saying well I’m down all this $$ in my account and better not buy another pin, it’s what’s another $15k losing asset. F it.
Quoted from Thunderbird:That’s the whole reason for a forum discussion on pinball. Nothing personal to anyone, just fun discussing the dunderhead moves by some of these thoughtless companies. We are not against each other, rather, we are discussing companies that we do not own any stock or company profits. Calling each other trolls because we do not agree with their opinions is childish, designed only as a moronic put down. It happens a lot on this forum when the other person doesn’t know what to say at what they perceive as a negative to their precious company.
Relax Tbird. No need to go on “tilt” if somebody doesn’t agree with you regarding your level of hatred for JJP. But if you want go there knock yourself out! Good entertainment value.
Quoted from PiperPinball:I think the bubble will burst when the next generation comes of age. That would be my kids and most millennials.
Highly unlikely they will buy new pinball machines or used for that matter. They don't care about nostalgia like all of us here on Pinside.
The demographic will change once us 40+ year plus olds stop buying or slow down.
Just my 2 cents.
That makes sense. My kids and wife would get rid of my pins next day when I go
Quoted from 27dnast:This notion that JJP has gone for a cash grab, or is milking money, at their current pricing is ridiculous.
They are a business with a sole purpose to make MONEY. They will charge what they need to charge to cover costs and hit their goals. Get over it.
When was the last time you walked into your employer’s office and said, “Hey boss, you know that $180K you pay me? Let’s drop that down to $140k. It feels like the right thing to do.”
When??? NEVER.
And if you were running JJP, you wouldn’t run some charity case of a company. Especially when you see the market prices people are paying for secondhand games and silly little pieces of plastic mods, paired with the fact that inflation and supply chain/staffing issues are blowing up. And if you did run the business in a manner that eliminates margins, you’d find yourself without line workers and the ability to pay R/D. You’d also find yourself on the street looking for a job.
My experience running a business agrees with your assessment 100%.
It’s called the “real world”. Some people just don’t live in it.
And I don’t believe anyone said anything about JJP being in business for the “sole purpose of making a profit”. That’s ridiculous.
If the pricing needs to be adjusted based on a mis read of the market then that’s on them.
Supply and demand will dictate that ultimately. It’s playing out right now.
One thing is for certain, in the “Pinside market place”, the sole motivation is making the most return on your sale for 98% of them.
Total $$$ grab? They all see what these pins are selling for in that market.
Good news is we have a choice, buy or don’t.
Quoted from konghusker:Wait!!! Did you say he-man?!?!? Do tell what you heard on that
Put Bond in front of that list
Quoted from zaphX:I liked it!
Nice succinct review Derek!
Quoted from zermeno68:Ugh.. yeah, I know what your talking about regarding the games layout. I’ve only put down my deposit and still assessing if this is right for me.
Guess I’m doing a road trip to play this game to decide.
Maybe I can find someone who would take over my order to get my deposit back.
Decisions, decisions…
1,000 CEs for JJP is ridiculous
Throw in a delivered price of $15,500
And a Toy Story 4 theme
I don’t think there is any way JJP sells 1,000 CEs
When it came time to put up the $$$ there were a ton of dropouts
They had a hard time unloading 500 Wonka CEs at $12,500. Had a close out sale to my distro who bought them all.
Wonka is an excellent game btw
Who knows, this market is crazy and pin buyers are fickle
Quoted from zermeno68:Yeah, I recall there were many Wonka CE’s around and then poof.. all gone.
It was a fun game when I played it. I’m torn as I’m considering picking up a WOZ.
The wife is pushing me to buy WOZ considering “Bang for Buck” is on WOZ side and I am thinking a road trip is needed very soon to test drive this game out. That will help me make my ultimate decision.
FYI, I wanted TS4 for ease and a family friendly game, but the wife put things into perspective for me.
WOZ was the first game I bought. Still sitting there. Had a lot of fun with it years ago. Don’t play it much anymore.
Play that Toy Story and see what you like best.
If you did get a WOZ find one with the Monkey mod and witch mod by Gouvia
Quoted from PinballTilt:You must have missed my point. Dudes who overpay for things don't want you bragging about how much they overpaid. I sold my Godzilla premium for $12,500 or so (asking price) but purposefully didn't include the amount because if the script was flipped I wouldn't want someone knowing I was the sucker that overpaid or knowing I have more money than sense.
I’m thinking anybody that buys pinball machines generally has more money than sense. Especially today
Quoted from Damonator:By disaster, you mean selling out of the entire run in a couple of hours?? JJP wishes they could have more of those "disasters".
I’m thinking the FOMO sales tactic is over for Spooky Damon.
Flippers got screwed.
Spooky needs to just sell a game and see who wants it without the drama. Pump the brakes
Quoted from zaphX:Rick and Morty lost me as a Spooky customer. I won't say for life because, never say never, but they have a very steep hill to climb to get me back.
I hated the code (which shows you everything regardless of how well you play) and I hated the build which rattled like a 30 year old hatchback filled with woofers.
It was a dream theme too.
Man I passed on that one Derek. Got Halloween because of the theme.
It’s a good game for an average player like me.
Quoted from Damonator:I hope flippers got super screwed on HWN/UM and I hope they get screwed again on TS4. It was worth the *temporary* UM value hit for me as I won't sell mine for a long time so I don't care. But if they keep losing money, they leave our hobby and go screw up some other hobby.
Don’t count on it. But the distros and manufacturers gotta stop feeding it
Quoted from PinMonk:Hubris and deception. The Spooky customers did not deserve what they got.
Yep. Like I said, they burned their base. Their WHOLE base at once, and the embers are still hot. That trust is obliterated for the most part, and Spooky had a LOT of it. If they really are doing another double release next, it will be extremely interesting, even if one of them is Scooby Doo. SD with a homebrew layout that doesn't shoot well is not something anyone is asking for.
Yep. Stop the BURN!!!
The amount of Halloween and UM’s for sale for the price?
Get what you can get but it’s a 100% I’d never participate in any FOMO pump next time.
Like my Halloween a lot but not gonna be one of those monkeys F ing a football
You can’t say JJP does it and then be Ok with this BS.
Quoted from flynnibus:I think it's "we can get away with it" and they use the savings for margins -- Just like all the companies are getting away with abysmal post-sales part availability... etc. No one is selling on service/reliability/TCO. I will say Stern has done well generally with it's mechanical engineering for servicability.. but failing on all the other fronts. Having equipment down for weeks to months just isn't a way to do business. If this wasn't a passion industry I'm sure everyone would have rolled on years ago.
They don't care because buyers re-enforce they don't need to. Alas the world in general is making this harder to harder to counteract too :/
Says the guy who just routed a TS4 LE ?
Quoted from Damonator:Lol - they didn't burn their base and the sellout had nothing to do with "trust" or "goodwill". The two hour sellout was *some* of their base and a *lot* of people trying to cash in on the R&M spot flipping. The flippers cared nothing about owning the game so they are simply dumping their spots as planned - but are forced to do it at market value and are taking a loss.
I know you've been around long enough to remember ACNC and TNA runs - those didn't sell out until late into the runs. That's the way it should be as it gives people time to see and play the games before purchasing. Everyone that purchased an ACNC or TNA actually wanted to own the game. Unlike this flipping BS that's been a cancer to our hobby the last few years.
As for me and Spooky - I'll keep buying every title they make because they make fun games and I like them as people. I suspect iceman44 will too.
I love those guys but stop the FOMO. Put it up. Let it stand on its own merits and let the chips fall where they may
No need to carnival hype it
Quoted from flynnibus:and? Like I said... passion industry. If I were chasing pure ROI we wouldn't do what we do.
“Cost of ownership” dude
Quoted from flynnibus:The company isn't routing TS4 because we think it's a TCO leader - we are routing it for other reasons.
The beauty of operating is... I don't have the personal stake in the buying decision that so many owners let cloud their judgement. These are mules to me, not trophies.
Golden Tee?
Quoted from PinMonk:Mantis won't help on the face of the Dialed In playfield, which is where the playfield chips at the SIM hole. Mine was chipped in two large places within 50 plays. Maybe later run PFs were less chip-prone, but the initial run had atrociously thick and brittle clear.
1 week later
Quoted from smokinhos:Well hopefully Stern and others don't follow JJPs pricing strategy. Not that pins are cheap, but with prices into the 5 digits i wonder how much more home buyers will tolerate.
According to Crazy and some others prices will just keep continuing to go up forever and ever. They won’t.
It may take a 2008/09 like deep recession to get people out of the mindset that we actually need these things.
We don’t of course and $15k is a ton of $$$ for any game, much less multiples of 5 figure games.
Quoted from PinMonk:That's two years of non-stop Toy Story 4 on the line @JJP's build rate. I don't think JJP was seriously shooting for that. No way TS4 is bigger than GnR, with or without the pricing, plus Steve has said his game is out next year.
They really thought going into TS4 that it was going to outsell the biggest seller to date in GNR, according to insider. I don’t think so either but you never know.
And pissed off a few real big distributors in the process. The ones where pin sales are minuscule to their overall sales.
Maybe they felt location guys would eat it up as a big earning “mule”?
2 weeks later
Quoted from romulusx:Theres quite a few Toy Stories out there now.What’s the word on playfield issues if any?If the beautiful and flawless I want to hear about that too
My GNRCE and WONKACE pf’s are beautiful and flawless.
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