After seeing the stream, I guess my perky flipper comment in yesterday's post wasn't so off target (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jjp-toy-story/page/93#post-6987079). JJP games have a history of complaints regarding anemic flippers - yesterday's stream is yet another example with a top player having difficulty getting the flippers to play as we would expect from a new, premium pinball product.

I have nothing against people that sell/install flipper fans, however it's a hack...period. B/W games were engineered for decades without flipper fans. Same for Stern. This is an engineering problem and the rumor that implied JJP had nailed their flipper issues is apparently wrong. Lastly, I have no bone to pick with JJP...I want nothing more than to support them with my pinball dollars. It's just hard when you don't feel like they are listening/responding.

Wonder how long it is before Jack lets us know that missing coil sleeve was Karls fault.

You were right on the money; flipper fans are a complete “hack”, plus crutch for poorly designed JJP flippers and software. It is very difficult to support any company, especially JJP for their crazy high asking prices, with such poor faulty equipment. Many PF problems aside, the basics of any good pinball playing time, is a good “ball/bat” experience. No bandaid like additional expensive fans should ever be required. Fans have never seen the light of day for more than 90 years of pinball manufacturing. It’s crazy they appear to be needed now and if they are, why isn’t JJP installing them?

Jesus christ. Maybe take a time out for a while with all the posting.

Other non jjp games see benefits with fan coils and have for many years. If we had them around, we would have bought a ton of them back in 2003 for lotr for sure.

Let's all of us quit responding to this troll and then he can just play with himself

Flipper fade - it's a problem that shouldn't exist - period.

Would it happen less, if flipper rubbers were lighter?

If so, which are the lightest currently?

If somehow Pinside AI was here. The best feature it could have would be to suppress bantering back and forth between individuals in what is clearly a mean spirited conversation. It would save the rest of us hours of our life so we don't have to page through this BS. What I am looking for in this thread is constructive feedback on TS4 and more curious about gameplay as it is now out in the wild. I love JJP pins and really like Pat's designs. The more I read, I think a lot of people may have been a little harsh out of the gate. With that said, this is why constructive feedback is really needed. This stuff is really expensive and real information is very helpful for those on the fence.

The direct digs at people on here are amazing. I really do wonder what people's motives are when they post so much hate? Is it that important to them to bash a given manufacturer because they own a competing brand? Really? It also astounds me how brave people can be behind a keyboard.

I will send anyone that wants a chill pill for free

Let's maybe try to be a tad kinder to one another? This is a hobby and frankly it is supposed to be recreation, right?

Peace

Dave

Can anyone demonstrate to me that the skill shot is physically possible? I'm feeling like a big dumb dummy - the geometry to that saucer, even with a soft plunge, doesn't seem possible but maybe I lack the skill.

Its ok for people to have disagreements, a little banter never hurt anyone

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1509490756 -> Go to 22:40

EDIT: Here is just the clip of the skill shot: https://clips.twitch.tv/GorgeousPoorPigeonTheTarFu-I9It4aVfrge-JGmI

I was able to catch Carl's 2nd play on TS4 last night. I think he's streams are really top notch.

Although it def seems the shots on this thing seem pretty safe and limited (compared to something from KE) and the code looks very straight forward, I wouldn't get too hung up on how easy the game is b/c Karl is amazing. I should be able to play this game before end of day and will post my non distributor and non industry friend influenced juiced up hype feedback shortly thereafter. Keep in mind, I own a Wonka CE which is flawed no doubt but there is just enough there (at the price I paid paired with there being only 500) to justify the purchase so I will likely be comparing the two as well. I also owned a DI which I really enjoyed as well and have a lot of experience with.

Just real quick takeaways - the game seems to be in-line with initial expectations. Super stripped down JJP that seems to shoot well and isn't even close to being a 12-15k pin. The music and sound (especially the effects) seem even more annoying than what I've seen already. That looping music in one of the MBs along with the spinner bell ring alone would drive me insane. That kickout/saucer to setup the upper right seems surprisingly clunky but I'm sure that can be adjusted. The carnival setting is really so in your face that it also felt like TS characters just thrown into a carnival game which is disappointing and something I didn't really get when this game was first shown.

I'm also terrible at pinball compared to many of you so I will be able to really tell you how easy this is. Less complex code isn't a bad thing btw - I love mode based games - it's just how well it's implemented. Typically those with limited code can be successful when paired with great sound and magic/custom mechs or features to get the eyes attention as you go from shot to shot, which this game has none of.

Hands on tonight.

Believe it or not Mr. (yes Mister) Potatohead made the cut, he’s a collectible character. And with Tim Allen as Buzz, we’re sort of safe from Woke.

I can’t believe that adults are so triggered by “woke”. It’s just pinball. Get over the fact that gay people exist. Sheesh.

I made a clip so it's a little easier to get to: https://clips.twitch.tv/GorgeousPoorPigeonTheTarFu-I9It4aVfrge-JGmI

It’s tough. Out of 100 games I’ve maybe hit it 12 times. Doesn’t look like it should fall sideways, but somehow it does.

It's certainly not a "hack"...its a very simple engineering solution to a known manufacturing problem.

Wow - nice straw man argument.

Thats the very definition of a hack though. I don't think the term "hack" being used to describe coil fans is necessarily being used in a negative context toward pinmonks product. I think we're all in agreement that its a good product. Its the fact that they are a necessary addition to some games because of poor design (or sometimes simple physics) that make them a hack.

I’m happy with not calling it a hack, but saying it’s a manufacturing problem is also incorrect. It’s an engineering problem…

Hey, we all draw the line in different places. If we don’t voice our opinions, we get nothing. Years ago when Stern started shipping useless PF “pegs” instead of support rails, many of us belly ached. Eventually, Stern listened. The ONLY reason I speak up on this forum is it’s the only place where people seem to care about such things. Even though most manufacturers aren’t engaged here, I’m sure stuff gets back to them.

To Spooky’s credit, they are very active on the threads for their games. Even though their recent release had some speed bumps, they are very responsive to the community. The support they gave me on R&M (which also had some flipper fade/weirdness) was exceptional. Again, just speaking my truth.

Very well said. Totally agree.

Sounded pretty negative to me, which is why I commented

I think you misunderstood but I don't blame you for wanting to defend pinmonk's product. I think it was just a case of "for lack of a better term". I know hack can definitely be (and often is) used negatively, but I don't think thats what anyone was going for here. At least thats my interpretation.

All good....

Man, a whole lot of hate for a game by people who claim they will never buy it anyway. Price is all relative. Sure, a Stern Pro seems like a deal when compared to 12k. Stern raised the price across the board. GZ is a great game, but the pro has nothing in it. Zeppelin Pro, even less. Rush Pro, not much. Everyone is charging more for less right now. JJP is just at the high end of the spectrum.Just Take the invisiglass out and the shaker motor and stop calling it an LE . Put that money somewhere else on the game. Just have a CE and a Standard. The best value on the market right now is how Chicago priced cactus canyon at 8k.

I just don't understand why some of you hate that other people like a game that you don't like.

Just to be clear, PinMonks flipper heat research and fans have helped the community immensely! An incredible asset to the hobby/community. I don't want that to be confused with my rant (which is really focused on the manufacturers, NOT the modding community).

GNR and RaM are the only pinball machines I've owned that had such bad fade that required fans. My adhoc off-the-shelf mini-fan does a great job eliminating fade on RaM's lower flippers. Since the board attached to the center of the PF also generates a ton of heat (which can be felt topside), this fan helps cool the PF in general. Nevertheless, PinMonk fans work great...no doubt. I just think pinball manufacturers need to do better, that's all. The more we put bandaids on problems, the less motivated they are to fix the problems.

IMG_1208 (resized).jpeg

My wife and I are just casual pinball players. In 4 games, I was not able to make it once. She made the skill shot on her 3rd ball of her first game. Either there is some luck involved or she is a much better player than I reaize.

Sums it up pretty well and rationally!

Without them on STH it became unplayable after a while. You really notice it if it’s off a hair and you can’t make that Demo shot

Great job Pin Monk

I have decided against TS4 for now and for mainly the reasons you have talked about above. Your tone/feedback is the kind of feedback I am looking for. To be clear, I loved what JJP has done leading up to this launch. With that said, I do plan on trying it on location and maybe I will feel differently.....but not counting on it.

That price is the main reason why I’m seriously considering a Cactus Canyon. I’m so tempted.
My personal limit is $12k for a perfect pin so something like Cactus Canyon, which to me is very good but not perfect, is going to sell by price. At $10k, I would not even consider it.

I’m getting an LE (it was worth it) and can’t wait. Unresolved issues preventing the game from being totally accepted are weak slings and flipper fade. Since then, Pat Lawlor has come out and said he will be adding a setting to allow for fluctuating power in different environments. This should resolve that issue. So why didn’t JJP fix it before releasing? Especially given JJP’s spotty record with power at shows.

The second issue of power fade after heating up is disappointing. It has been a known problem for JJP forever and it was leaked that JJP was working on the issue. What was going on with Toy Story 4 design all those years if JJP didn’t want to fix and announce the flipper problems were resolved for good. And by having them on TS4, they could be showing us that issue was resolved. Also then when game is first streamed, it wouldn’t play like ass.

Anyways, since then we’ve learned Karl’s game was missing a 75 cent sleeve insert and it is reported mucho better now. Pat Lawlor also pledged to fix the issue officially. Once those items are complete, I’ll admit JJP hit the game out of the ballpark. But I’ll reserve my Out of the Ballpark Grand Slam Award for a pin with mechanical wow like GZ or JJPOTC.

There is no such thing as a perfect pin - at least I've never owned one.

Cactus Canyon is a great game - easily one of the top 5 from the 90s with the CGC code fixes. And with the upcoming "extended" code that will be offered in the future, it will only get better.

I used to be able to chill on Pinside with people who I disagreed with politically, because we found common ground in discussing a hobby we loved, and left the politics at the door. Sure, it leaked out here and there, that happens, but for the most part people just talked pinball. I have plenty of my own opinions, but I just keep them to myself here, people don't need to hear it.

Too many people seem to have decided they gotta overshare now.

I don't watch talking heads on the news, or listen to them on the radio, I dunno who pushes the "scream about woke" talking point y'all parrot. Clearly you get your marching orders from someone with the way it's always the same talking points, but it's become something you're so obsessed over that you can't seem to not do it constantly.

I know the origin of the phrase before it was co-opted, for conservatives now it seems to be a catch all for "anything I don't like". But I guess it's mainly about being homophobic?

Anyways, I just wanted to see what people thought about the new pin, and wading through the "Buzz Wokeyear" nonsense is becoming tiresome, so gonna bow out. But in general Pinside is a less pleasant place to be now that people can't seem to control their politics leaking into everything.

Always wonder why people have to announce they are leaving and post their reasons, like we really care. If you can't tolerate opposing views, there are plenty of echo chambers out that will parrot back exactly what you want to hear.

Did you read the post Aurich responded to? Because I think saying "Hey I'd rather read about pinball than [insert pinside poster here]'s homophobic posts" is a pretty good take in a Toy Story pinball thread.

Which is to say, I played it yesterday. Not in love with the game, but it shoots well enough and seems approachable for folks of all skill levels. A little on the easier side with long ball times, I prefer my games a little more brutal.

Problem: ^^
Solution: Drain thread

ahhh.... here it comes...and I am about to feel a peaceful satisfaction that I think must be similar to Steph Curry from half court.

shhhhh

Spoke to soon!

When I first saw that pic I thought you had a miniature bbq grill in there for a second.

Lol. Yeah we are just having some fun with poor old Tbird. He’s a good but misguided dude.

Have to admit to it was pretty funny when Carl found the missing coil sleeve right after the stream!

“price is relative”. Like it or not. And I don’t but it is what it is right now

Seems to be the biggest obvious gripe

My daughter and I watched the Stream, she's a huge Toy story fan, wtached for a bit

I think the worry is the precedent that is being set. It may not be their theme right now, but the worry is the same stripping / upcharge is applied to something they want in the future, hence the backlash. I don't think this game was truly made for the home environment honestly, but rather the novice passerby at Dave and Busters. Watching Karl's stream, the music and callouts were driving me nuts. I'll shoot it before judging further.

I get it , but Stern has been doing the same thing. It isn't new. If what everyone says is true, then everyone is going to be scooping this title up on the secondary market for peanuts and not laying 12k

That may happen if it's possible to hit the wizard mode repeatedly on the first try. Looking at my GnR LE, it looks loaded with the lights off. I always associated JJP with the high end boutique market and a loaded pin, which justified the cost. If they want to dive into the Stern Pro waters, that's fine, but the price should reflect accordingly. This price is a hybrid reflection of the current economy and what the market will bear, not necessarily because it's a 12k game. The game will eventually set the price. If the code updates can turn it into a EHOH, GOTG, or ST then it may have some legs to withstand the secondary market. There are some neat innovations to this pin namely the ramp and the benson posts and the lock feed to the disc, I just need some defining modes ala Godzilla. The current code is a chaotic jumble on first watch. Maybe that's a good thing for complexity sake.

Ugh - you mean to tell me I've been working my butt off for 25 years to make money while you guys are just laying money like eggs?

Yeah, on Saturday night I hit it twice in two games.

When you plunge, look at the washer below the shooter rubber. See where it is on the shooter gauge. Find a way to hold/release the plunger that you can repeat. Stand in the same place every time so your viewing angle of the washer relative to the the gauge is consistent. Adjust the release point up or down as needed on future plunges.

You'll still need a little luck to drop it in that saucer, but the method above will get you close.

We should be neighbors. My two favorite sports

I am announcing that I have read the announcement of those those announcing that they disapprove of announcing thread drains!

What's the difficulty level? WOF or Big Guns?

CCR and Godzilla are relative bargains compared to Toy Story and I’m not even happy with what they cost but I’m buying them because they are both great machines.

It took literally 5 seconds to scroll past all that. Just scroll til different avatars show up on the left. Mountain out of a molehill here.