I think the multi-balls are generally shorter and less frequent on older titles.. moderns seem to have much more MB focus.. this means you are basically pulsing the high voltage on the flippers frequently for extended periods which would explain more of a feeling of power fade. The hold is not the issue.. it's that quick successive flipping which really drives up the heat from what I gather.

Agree on your multiball frequency on modern machines hypothesis being a contributor to fade.

But, if you're a trap player, hold IS a heat issue on anything except Stern Spike systems. If you hold a JJP or Spooky or CGC machine's flipper up for 5, 10, 20, even 30 minutes straight, you can watch the temp continue to rise (and on a whitestar system you'll probably eventually blow a transistor). On Spike the temp will budge maybe 1-2 degrees, that's it.

This is why I dislike most modern games.

Multiball should be something that you work towards. Something earned.

Look at the great 90s titles like Addams. There’s a lot of skill and work to get towards the big Multiball. MB is a reward , and you get a big fanfare for doing it.

Most of the new games - mb after mb after mb after mb. It’s just boring.

rd

Guys, we all got it backward... It's the perfect game for operator: less toys, less point of failures, less downtime and less maintenance

Joke aside, it's not because it's empty it's not fun, point in case Stranger Things which, aside for the Premium version, is still pretty fun to shoot (it's fundamentally two ramps, two spinners, two orbits, three bumpers and one bashing toy), at least for me.

But I admit that the price tag is rather steep, as in the mindset of many, JJP = packed playfield and $$$$ = packed playfield. What we have here is JJP = $$$$ = empty playfield. This is a major shift of the brand value proposition.

Does not detract from the potential value of the gameplay (for which I can't judge, I'm in Europe we never see JJP on location - so can only play it at pinball events, if we're lucky), but I do hope Stern won't get ideas (one can hope...)

Legit laughed out loud. Thanks manadams.

Has anyone consider that perhaps JJP game construction is by design? Meaning, Eric or one game designer will produce a game with lots of Mechs which takes extra time to develop/manufacture.

Then, JJP will have another designer who can build a great game focused on less Mechs which results with less time to develop/manufacture??

If overlapped just right JJP can produce 2 games a year with the same combined BOM price for both games.

It’s probably guaranteed Eric’s next game will be mech heavy.

The last 3 JJPs are all sparse with mechs. I think it works well on GnR, but see no evidence that JJP is headed back to the old days at this point, unless the market doesn’t respond to the less is more approach.

Im actually surprised that we cant see how simple this is to fix. Why cant we just add more pop bumpers to it? Im shocked that pat "pop bumper" lawlor didn't cram them in those blank spots.

20220620_072940 (resized).jpg

Yes, all designed to give you way less while raking in record profits. Problem is they went too far and will suffer financially for it IMO.

Great idea - put 3 pops between the slingshots for some serious ball action. I‘m in!

How many casual players can earn a multiball on Addams? I hated it on location cuz I didn’t have the money to learn how to play it.

Multiball is fun, what percentage of players should get to play it? That’s the delima every manufacturer deals with.

Watch a good player earn a multiball and never get on yourself = game sucks to hard.

Played Addams last night and loved it!

Some 90s games had a “gimme” Multiball on Ball 3. That seemed to be a good compromise to give casuals a shot at almost always getting one. BSD, for example, always has Mist Multiball lit on Ball 3. I think most DE pins had the Ball 3 Gimme.

Just becuase you think prices are too high, doesn't mean you shouldn't take advantage of it.
Same with the stock market, if you think prices are too high - you stop buying and start selling

Besides having more mechanical features in Wonka and Dialed In both of those games also feature multiple magnets under the playfield in similar locations (mostly middle) that interact with the ball. In Toy Story 4 it's just empty space and a 10" screen instead of a larger mech all for more money.

Completely different - 2 hours of video game play and I have only seen a fraction of what it offers
2 hours of pinball play and I have made every shot numerous times and have a feel if I like the layout - code has personally never really turned me off on a machine, I loved TWD while everyone was hating on it.

I agree with you. I also feel like there is more incentive to keep the balls alive as there is either no ball saver or a very short ball saver during multiball in older games.

Exactly this. If a company wants to have the most expensive games on the market and base themselves as the Cadillac of pinball then it needs to check every box
Theme people want: Fail
Tons of mechs/innovation: Fail
Amazing art and sound: I'll give this one a pass, but its not mind blowing by any means
Fun to play: I haven't played it yet but I have no doubt its fun so I'll give it a pass. This is obviously the most important category as well, but its also the least commonly screwed up one. Its hard to make a game not very fun. So yeah obviously we want fun games, but what games aren't fun? Very few. Just how fun is it? Is it the most fun game of all time? I doubt it.

So if you're not checking off all or almost all of those things, its really hard to justify buying one at the price they are charging. I think thats the underlying issue of why so many people are up in arms about this game. Sometimes being really really strong in 1 or 2 of those areas can make up for other ones that lack, but I don't think Toy Story 4 has that ability either.

or maybe not if they can sell $30 million worth the first day

At JJP headquarters...

1 (resized).jpg

2 (resized).jpg

3 (resized).jpg

I agree with you on that one, Just like the stock market, what goes up can and will come down. Pinball "price bubble"

If i wanted to take advantage of it i'd sell all my Stern LE's right now like you said. Could never sell my TWDLE!

But this is a hobby, meant to be fun.

For now, it's also fun watching the drama play out!

I'd really love to see a "tell all" book from some designers after they've retired (and can air out their grievances). for one, I think that much of the shortcomings in all [licensed] titles are the license holders themselves.

these companies are getting a one-time payout for their license based on a pre-determined number of games produced, so they really have no skin in the game if sells well or not. we've heard it before that disney is a pain in the @ss to work with and many suggestions are plain-and-simply shot down from the corporate level. it's only when you get someone (or an entity) that is genuinely interested in making the product shine, does it do that.

we've been fortunate in the music arena with bands like metallica, guns 'n roses' slash and rush that took an active part in the development in their titles.

wasn't this title supposed to come out years ago to coincide with the movie's release? it kind of seems like it sat on a shelf and collected dust for 3-years and then was put out only because sales for gnr have gotten a bit soft for jjp. it also begs the question if jjp went to disney for a [toy story] license, but were only given the option to license the TS4 assets.

with all that said, the CE exclusive additional color-commentary by annie potts does seem like a slap in the face to the LE buyers. that, and the lack of anything truly ground-breaking (let alone much of anything) in the game that is selling for $12K or more

Fair point. But even a fighting game reviewer would be expected to put more than a few hours into the game even though they probably saw everything in the first 60min. They need to actually lab out the characters, practice hard, and experiment to truly find the depth or lack thereof in a game.

While a couple hours will give you a feel for a pin, it’s not enough to inform whether it really has lasting power, whether elements will grow on you, and how much maintenance or defects will be dealt with, which are all important elements of an actual review vs. first impressions IMO.

I hated Mando’s layout after the first couple of hours with it, but I’ve come to enjoy it more after learning its shot geometry better, finding a rhythm to control the ball in the upper playfield, and realizing the pin made me a better trap player and improved my scores on other pins. I don’t feel like the game really came into its own for me until after at least 100 games. Now I’m testing the depth of the code to see how much I can mix up my strategies, and it took many months for players to realize at least one mode is too high risk/low award to be worth playing.

None of this would’ve been discovered after just a couple hours of gameplay.

Not saying people shouldn’t have impressions of gameplay and use that to inform their purchase decisions. But we’ve got people on here with a handful of games under their belt claiming that TS4 is an all time great or a JJP’s worst pin ever as though it’s a universal truth.

Give it time and we’ll see how well TS4 really holds up.

I keep seeing this like its some sort of achievement or makes the game not worthy of its criticism. Did they sell 300 through their website? Otherwise, a big chunk of that is just distributor allotment. AP sold millions of dollars worth of LoV day one too. Spooky sold out their entire run of games day 1 as well. Surely a large percentage of these TS4 sales are from people who are hoping to cash in, or just buy every new title. How many of them are actually thrilled with the end product? Any pinball machine released right now is pretty much a sure fire license to print cash for any company. Demand is at epic proportions, supply is at its lowest. The real test is how many people who don't or can't just buy every single new machine are interested? None of that has anything to do with the reason a huge swath of the hobby is let down by this release anyway.

To me the real marker is how the game lives on the used market. Since all of them are limited runs, now that we see some games gaining values through time, while others don't, it's a good way to establish the success of a game.

and then it kicks your ass with no ballsave

After playing Wonka last night, I'm not sure I miss the magnets in the center playfield that just decide your ball is over!

Not sure that additional mech makes the game any better.

we'll never know

"It's just where the market is".

People are having a tough time coming to grips with that fact. Like it or not. I understand it's crazy and ridiculous but it is what it is for now. It doesn't seem to be coming to a screeching halt yet.

Here's a good example, Thunderbird was over in the Munsters thread pumping up the LE sale at $17,500 and saying it's going a lot higher because of how great the game is. I have one, and I love mine but............... $17,500 and up?

THAT is the problem right there. Yes prices are insane but people now EXPECT to buy a game for X and sell it a LOT higher for Y.

What did you think was going to happen? The "money grabs"? Take a peek at the Pinside Marketplace. It's not one or two, it's across the board.

The idea that a pin manufacturer has gone there price wise is shocking, or is it?

Well my friend Ice, not pumping pillaging and plundering by any stretch, lol. $17,5k for any game is madness. In the case of Munsters no more are being made, so like POTC, all those that want one now are going to get plundered, which will stop if we all say no. Just like TS4’s insane pricing. If we say no, JJP will rethink their game plan. It’s because of FOMO that so many are suckered into every and any title. Come on LOV? That’s proof alone, but its price is not as crazy as TS4. Price is a feature and many would be fine with higher prices if there was an equivalent BOM to match. JJP is charging sky high prices with what can’t be more than a $1500 - $2000 BOM, if that, plus one programmers time, Joe K. As a hobbyist community, we need to be willing to walk away, only then will all the crazy scalping stop, even when the main scalpers are the maker.

But think the real suckers are the poor distributors, as most of these titles have not been sold through, but are still at the distributors warehouse. You purchased a discounted JJP machine from a distributor sitting on inventory. Watch this same thing unfolding in the future for TS4, which is definitely not sold out at all.

Hmmm, “No additional mechs”, you seem easy to please….

Great, I’ll make a perceived decent easy playing game with 3 flippers, no mechs, a simple jump ramp, plain spinning wheel and make it colorful, with fireworks in the code. Charge you $15k…oh wait, JJP already beat me to it.

…awe shucks…lol.

There are still 600 LE's on Munsters (BOM on that game MUCH less). The BOM is much higher than you think on Toy Story. You have to include all of fixed and variable overhead that goes into these games on top of the inflationary aspect to labor, materials and basically everything else.

All that said, I agree with you Tbird, these CE's are gonna drop like a lead balloon in the secondary market! And IF they do, the rest of the secondary market is going to take a little dip with it. Not gonna have one without the other.

I'd like understand how people can keep arguing that the Stern LE's are gonna keep going up, look at GZLE's with 1k quantity, STH, GB, JP, IM, DP, you name it, and the only thing going DOWN in this market is Toy Story?

And that will be in the face of very good reviews thus far. So we will see.

Until you told me? Listen, I've never made any claims that I've seen code or know anything special about today's hardware used in pinball machines. My observations are purely from owning & playing many games for 3 decades (and hosting tournaments over the years where games can get played continuously for 6-8 hours).

Saying Stern STILL HAS FADE is meaningless if none/few of us see it in practice. OTOH, if many of us experience flipper weakness and fade on JJP games, that's all that matters. What people experience in actual use...and my original post was in response to someone that JUST PLAYED TS4 and said there was noticeable fade which effected the ability to make certain shots! (when there was speculation that JJP had addressed the problem with hardware/software). OTOH, I'm in the Rush and GZ forums and NEVER hear people complain about flipper weakness or fade. That's the bottom line, Mr. Physics expert and fan entrepreneur. I find you exceptionally disrespectful and will try and avoid you. You love posturing and arguing about this for some reason, which is ridiculous.

EXACTLY my point. Thank you! And the fact that JJP uses the same flipper mechs, implies the JJP board set and software are responsible for the less-than-ideal flipper behavior that results in weakness/fade.

Agree with you, as every JJP I’ve owned and played has severe flipper fade. From watching streams, TS4 is no different. Do not experience flipper fade on any Stern, except a little on AIQ and when I switched back to Stern rubber and stopped using silicone, that also improved. No fans were needed. Think the use of silicon emphasizes flipper fade, but rubber keeps Stern flippers strong. (Interestingly, could not improve my JJP with rubber. Can understand Pinmonk’s extreme interest in anything JJP, as he wants to sell fans, cause JJP flippers need them badly.)

I'm a huge fan of 3-flipper games (and my collection reflects that Both Rush and R&M make such amazing use of the upper flipper. It's really disappointing to see a game with 1 upper flipper shot. The huge area dedicated to the pops is also disappointing...love how GZ and R&M only have one pop in a really creative area.

In any event, thanks for the review. Look forward to playing it on location...as much as I want to look past all the disappointments and still purchase one, I just can't bring myself to do it. Like so many here, I was waiting for this license to be done for many years. Oh well...

So I’ll try to just walk away from that $17.5 K Munsters.It’s going to be tough but I’ll try if you think I should?

Lololo, good one.

Too funny. Ice did spoil his forecasting, laying the deep root egg, lol. But he’s right, TS4 CEs will drop like lead balloons, when the hype fades away.

You're in luck! It's even easier than you imagine to do this! Click on my user name to the left of this post, then click the "ignore pinmonk" button. Pinside will make sure you're not bothered by my posts ever again, simple as that.

My kids have requested The Mandalorian....thats one title that doesnt seem to retain value....not sure why?

It will once the topper comes out =)
We have been patiently waiting...

What hype? FOMO on this one? Uhmmm…nope.

It's just not a super-popular layout and doesn't have many toys to interact with. They shot their BOM wad on the tilting helmet playfield that I still have no idea why it's there and what tilting it has to do with anything. I have a NIB Mando Prem coming in for mods that will be in the marketplace probably within 3 weeks or so for around $7700 - with that price idea, I'm already prepared to take a fair loss on it to move it through after mods since I have too many pins here and showing up at once right now. So if you're still in the market in a few weeks, easy way to try it out without paying too much in case your kids don't like it.

Well you’re totally wrong about that one Pinmonk. The layout is a Brian Eddie layout and is sooooo fun to shoot. Numerous interactive toys. It’s a go to machine for many of us. The code is stellar, so you’re up in the night on that one. Would have guessed you’d spear Stern, as you pump anything JJP. Your motive is becoming much clearer now…his kids will love it, just like mine do. It’s an exciting fun shooter with awesome shots and toys. Your comments about the upper PF show how clueless you really are. I’d stick to making high priced fans for JJP extreme flipper fade issues, instead of becoming a clueless reviewer, lol.

Yeah, I love Mando. Particularly, the Premium. Fun to shoot, good code, and lots of show assets on the LCD.

So, you have a difference of opinion with the market on Mando (the market's pricing is borne out by the used sales, no less - check for yourself). It's not the end of the world, it's a debate. Different opinions. Remember those? Where's this vitriol coming from?
Paul_Rudd_Look_At_Us_sml.gif

Very clever.

I guess I got it right on every Stern LE I bought?

So that makes batting about 10-1. I’ll take it. Check that, let’s go 23-1, I’ll include every game I currently have. That’s about 96% for the mathematically challenged.

Let’s tally up the results Flipper.

Next up, let’s cheer the Stern LE that Elwin is doing, Jaws, 1,000 units for $15,000

Or should it be $17,500 Tbird?

You and flipper Adams are sounding like Stern super pumpers! He’s def part of the problem flipping those games

And if you don’t think Steen has flipper fade you haven’t played em much.

STH? That Demo shot becomes impossible after 20-30 minutes without PinMonk cooling fans

DOES THE SHARK EAT THE BALL?!?