I'll have my Toy Story 4 this week to know for sure (and temp test), but I kind of doubt it. Especially for the right flipper. Historically JJP puts the flipper plate VERY CLOSE to the ball trough, making mounting from that side impossible. GnR only works because the other side has *just enough* to clear it.

I really think this is a terrible and disrespectful comment. If you don't like the game, move on.

GNRCE is a blast to play and gorgeous piece of art!

500 at $12,500 works

Really don’t need to spend $15k on any game if you have a good location nearby.

Wondering what I’m doing

I got four games on a toy story today. I enjoyed it. Shoots pretty smoothly which is probably my #1 thing in a pin. If you have one on order congrats and enjoy. The only thing stopping me from picking one up is the price and the screen.

Too much issue with the price. I get it and it sucks JJP did it without making “justifiable” reason from the perspective of customers.

For argument sake…. What is a respectable price the LE/CE should have been?

I would think 9k LE and 12k CE.

Reasonable? $13k (includes shipping) for CE and limit it to 500

Make another unlimited edition for $10,500. Might as well call it that anyhow. 5,000 is basically unlimited.

There is no such thing as “collector” edition anymore with Stern and JJP.

1,000 units of anything? Nope

In a HUO environment there is a “collectibility” element in why some people buy. They don’t play their games every day

Greed is gonna kill the golden goose

There might be a ton of these CE slots up for grabs Over the summer.

May be time to go back to mostly location pinball and away from HUO, good for ops

Maybe at $9k/$12k I would’ve considered it.

It’ll give new meaning to the old saying $10k by X-mas.

You are not sure what my point is? Wow. It's simple, Stern flippers are currently best-in-class as far as flipper strength/hold/heat AND YOU KNOW IT. Stop with your "Electrical resistance is a thing" and physics BS. I've owned 60+ games and my B/W and Stern games have much stronger flippers than JJP with far less fade. Do ALL flippers eventually fade when played long enough? Sure. But in Sterns case, they outlast JJP by a lot.

Since JJP uses B/W mechs, it's clearly a difference in the hardware/software that drives the flippers (AND MY POINT IS IT"S A PITY JJP HASN"T IMPROVED THE hardware/software that causes the problem). I realize you sell flipper fans and want everyone to believe this is a physics problem that applies to ALL games, BUT IT DOESN"T. The hardware/software matters. Computer languages, compliers and program optimizations was my thing for 25 years. All hardware/software isn't the same, especially for these pinball platforms.

So what everyone wants is a packed game in high demand for $12k that they can flip for $15k the next day?

Don’t be too sure that there hasn’t been any improvement to the flipper coils….check out the video I posted and watch how many times the pro player hits that ramp jump shot with no apparent fade…I don’t think you would expect that with the recent JJPs…Im convinced there IS some improvement regardless of the anecdotes floating around…

This makes no sense. It IS a physics problem. It can be mitigated by good design and clever hardware, but the physics of electrical resistance are well established. And I maintain and publish a CHART (example below, for your reference) on the Tibetan Breeze product pages that show which machines have better or worse flipper temp performance with the max temperatures over a 60-120 minute test period (older tests were only 60 minutes, my current ones are 120 minutes for a better fade picture). I don't want ANYONE to buy a Tibeban Breeze cooling system for a machine that doesn't need it, so your assertion is complete and utter churlish-for-no-reason poppycock.

Until I TOLD YOU that Stern was using microsecond duty cycles on Spike2, you had no idea. It wasn't even in the conversation about fade. Go back, look it up, I'll wait. But despite that somewhat magical Stern innovation that now is IN THE CONVERSATION, Stern STILL HAS FADE, sometimes extreme fade with certain machines. Their improvement really only benefits trap players for the most part because they abuse hold. You must know that the average pinball player is not a trap player.

The mechs make little difference. It's all about the duty cycle, because that controls power over time that's getting to the coils. And power causes heat and heat causes resistance which makes the same power do less work, etc, etc blah blah blah.
Coil Testing Chart-2022-06-18-sml.png

I wouldn't judge someone in this line of work based on interviews, etc.

From my experience, highly creative people are often socially inept.

Watch Lyman's interactions without knowing what he was capable of, and you may come away with a skewed perception of him.

One could argue that those that are socially awkward, hiding a unique line of thought, are exactly the kinds of people you'd want working their magic in their own space.

I think the biggest issues with this game are price and price.

Supposedly the game boosts the flipper power momentarily just for that shot, which is great until fade happens, then it won't help at all.

Temp testing will answer some of the questions. Testing the duty cycles will answer even more. I'll start as soon as I get the machine, supposedly late this week.

well of course

Sounds like a plan! I’m in for a set of TB fans if need-be…that said, encouraging that the shot was so repeatable based on the video…anyone saying this is a frustrating shot simply needs to watch the video…the game is about as SMOOTH as I’ve ever seen from modern pinball…this is a KEY element in making a FUN PIN…all wrapped in one of the most beautiful cabinets I’ve ever seen…when you combine beautiful art with smooth gameplay I can’t see how that’s a bad thing….but you know what opinions are like…

Yes!! And that is what would happen. Either way, someone is going to have to pay 15K!! Jersey Jack or Second Hand Buyers lol

Yup.. That is me the sucker paying CE NIB price! I’ll gladly take the hit. I’m fully aware if I decide to sell/trade it in the future, it’s value will go down (unless I find the right buyer). That will be a few years down the road.

Im good with that as I know I’m gonna have a blast playing this game.

I agree if JJP kept the price the same as Wonka, there would be less complaining.

The nearest pinball arcade center near me is at least 2 hours drive one way. Time is my main factor driving me to buy this game.

With my 3rd baby on the way I’m sure the wife will not want to drive just to play some pins.

I just got word that Karl DeAngelo will be streaming Toy Story 4 with temp gauges on his iepinball twitch stream that update in real time as he plays. It may be streamed as soon as tomorrow night. I'll definitely be tuning in to see if he beats the wizard mode twice to truly complete the game in 2 hours, and what temps he gets in that time.

The upside though is it looks like the GnR JJP Tibetan Breeze brackets may fit Toy Story 4, so no wait for the universal JJP bracket's release.

The official name of this game is “Toy Story” not “Toy Story 4”. Wrap your head around that!

The Shadow already has legacy dibs on the TS abbreviation, so TS4 it is for pinside's purposes.

I just saw the light-year movie. It was much better than I had anticipated. I don't think this will help the pin in any way...but it makes me wonder if there happen to be any lightyear Easter eggs?

Not so fast.. Look closer!!!

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Huh, interesting. The fade I noticed on TS4 didn't have any effect on the jump ramp. The determining factor on the jump ramp was whether or not you made it between the posts. Always seemed to have plenty of power for that. Also, the ramps were still makeable.

The main thing I noticed in regards to fade was that the left-ramp stopped being backhandable, and that overall sluggish feeling increased over the night. But the game was still perfectly playable otherwise.

WPG is a hella good JJP game player. One of the best I’ve watched, he is a frequent nudger and is good at getting the most out of play. He is also a chronic whiner. Maybe it was the fact he was mic’d up, by virtue of the camera sound, and we were forced to listen to his bitching. It wasn’t pretty and I’d recommend he go in stealth, silent mode in the future, whenever playing a JJP game on camera. If he practiced a little bit more on TS4, maybe he could get through the second mini wizard mode and start final wizard mode.

But I disagree with his statement that he didn’t enjoy playing it. If he could get to the end he’d always have bragging rights whenever the game came up in conversation. Also he’d probably be able to do it quickly, so he could say he did it in … 25 minutes??? But for the record, he hated it. . And he pretty much damned the entire JJP design team for making such an unfair game. However, he found a spot or two when software needed to blink what’s next and it wasn’t. That is a minor coding tweak. His main feedback was regarding flipper fade and he effectively demonstrated the loss of flipper power as game progressed.

Lack of flipper fade... just another thing that Williams/Bally had mastered (30 years ago!).

I thought I heard Pat say that Meet Me at the Carousel + Fireworks was the final wizard mode?

Ask any tournament player. Bally/Williams pins are not immune to flipper fade, especially with the caliber of players now that can play them for hours straight, one after another.

There are two sides to Meet me at the Carousel. One each for Woody and Buzz. You have to play through everything to get the first meet, then everything again to get the second version of Meet Me at the Carousel.

Ah, that makes sense re: the "Meet Me"

The rule sheet hints at it by putting Woody and Buzz at opposite ends of the sign.

pic15 (resized).jpeg

That makes sense and matches the diagram. So after collecting the Woody jackpot how do you start the Buzz part? Do you have to go through cycle until it comes up the second time and then you start 2nd meet me at carousel? After completing 2nd part of Meet Me, does it automatically start fireworks?
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I played about a half dozen games on a TS4LE this afternoon and thought I would give my thoughts.

The flippers on this game felt improved to my GNRLE at home. They felt the closest to WPC flippers of any JJP game to date. Not sure what changes were made but it's a step in the right direction. I think the game also looks great and generally shoots really well. the shots all feel smooth and satisfying to hit. The upper mini orbit is a little bit hard to get a feel for at first most likely because it isn't a full flipper but it's a repeatable shot and fun to make. I had no difficulty hitting any of the shots.

The upper half of the playfield kind of feels like it has some wasted space. The pop bumper area takes up a bunch of space and it's a lot of luck as to where the ball ends up. There's also only 1 upper flipper shot. I feel like Wonka and Dialed-In made much better use of the playfield space that they were given. The game also seems to favor the Woody Spinner shot which then kicks it around for an upper loop. The game feels really limited in the number of available shots. I didn't really enjoy the Gabby Gabby pop up and it reminded me of Hobbit in how often and sporadic it seemed to pop up for you to hit it. I did enjoy the pop up ramp and posts and thought that that shot was fun to hit and repeat.

The carnival modes in the game seem really basic and feel out of place in a Toy Story themed game. Most seem to have you shoot the Forky targets or hit a certain color shot which seem to make up most of the available shots. They just didn't seem very innovative and don't really bring you into the theme. I got the Tiki Pinball game once and the proceeding Multi-ball and it really wasn't a fun to play virtual pinball on the iPad screen. There do seem to be a good number of multi-balls in the game but the rules seem very 90'ish and simplistic.

Overall I still enjoyed playing the game but it kind of reminded me of playing a 90's WPC game in terms of rules and gameplay. Not necessarily a bad thing if that's what you're looking for but it is not really my preference for the type of game that I want to buy to enjoy at home. I also brought my 8 year old son along to play and he thought the game was pretty mediocre and he thought that Godzilla, Mando, and Deadpool were all more enjoyable to play. I asked him what he thought if it compared to the GNR we have at home and he said that the GNR is way better just to give the thoughts and opinions of a kid that has played it. As far as Pat's JJP go I would rate this one third after Wonka and DI. It is similar to both of those pins but I think both of those have better layouts and features.

Pat Lawlor’s Memoir

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Sometimes I wonder if this is what they are trying to achieve. Kill off the home market and build up the location. We are already well past the point where financially it doesn't make any sense to own a machine. I play a ton and even for me it doesn't make financial sense to own any machine. Location is dead around me but if it wasn't I might own less or may not even own any at all.

I went back and played Wonka after about 60 plays of TS4, and I still love it.

For me, TS4 isn’t as easy once you know the rules and have to make the hard shots (vs hitting the wide shots over and over). That scoop is a bitch to hit, so is the road trip lock (with flippers in factory position). And when you miss, that left outlane is hungry!

My flipper wasn’t gapped properly and binding (piston going into the sleeve at a slight angle). Which made the fade even worse.

90’s pins have heaps more going on, what r u on about ? MM, AFM, MB,TOTAN, TZ, TAF, CV are packed compared to this heap.

How much is Hot Wheels again? I played that one several times and really liked it, I wonder if the price on it went up thoguh, considering all the other prioces out there...

I believe you, but in all my years of playing a ton of WPC games, I never really noticed it. Have you done any measurements to compare WPC heat gain to those same mechs on a JJP?

I'll definitely never own one of these and will most likely never even get to play one, but this been an entertaining thread.

Random observation from that under playfield photo, assuming standard Williams coil colors, they used blue (strongest) for the left flipper, and orange (second strongest) for the upper & lower right flippers. Makes sense.

Someone will have explain to me like I'm in kindergarten how Williams could run these at like 70 volts or whatever, with acceptable fade, yet in a JJP game the exact same coils have to be under-driven to avoid horrible heat fade. And they're dual-wound, which I thought was supposed to avoid the hold side ever getting hot, which is apparently still an issue for JJP.

I have a TOTAN with (factory?) blue flipper coils that, after I rebuilt them, felt like they could knock a hole in the back of the cabinet. And I've never noticed them fade enough to change how the shots feel.

Not yet, but there's plenty of anecdotal tournament evidence from late tournament noodle flippers on some older B/W games. Once I get all the modern ones covered, I'll work backwards, but I think since normal people play older B/W games for shorter periods of time in a home setting, the need for active cooling is way less. Probably why you never really noticed it.

Rough year for Toy Story fans, the pinball is a major disappointment, and the lightyear movie sucks plain and simple

Ten years ago, everyone complained that WOZ Emerald City at $6,500 was too expensive. When I picked up my game at his JJP Lakewood, NJ facility back then, Jack confessed to me (and to anyone who asked) that he really had no reliable pricing formula.

He had to make a splash with his initial release so the BOM was secondary. That's what he told me. Some Pinsiders believe that JJP would escalate its "mech quotient" with subsequent titles. In reality, WOZ was the Twilight Zone of its day (even the layout is reminiscent of TZ) in terms of mechanical sophistication.

The confluence of JJP's entry into manufacturing, coupled with the fact that Jack already had the WOZ license from his companion business, combined to produce an exceptionally complex bellwether game for this fledgling pinball company.

However, it was just a matter of time before the economics of the business altered the product. I don't profess to offer any answers because running a pinball business is outside of my field. What I do know is that enthusiasts in this hobby viewed Jersey Jack as the pinball company which emphasized innovation and inspired mechanical modernization.

I hope that JJP reclaims that sensibility with subsequent titles.

I hope so too. Meunier seems to thrive on innovative designs, and I’d really hate to see his next title held back.