Speaking of great movie assets!
One of my all time favorite pins.

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Whoever made this was a genius!!!

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Dr. Frightner?

He’s not wrong though. I see a lot of lunatic arm flailing hate going on too which is fine with me, who cares but…

The price arguments are coming from the same people selling pins in the “marketplace”for bloated prices.

That’s a fact

I know I hear you its terrible. A brand new game is cheaper than Munster Premium asking $16,500.00. Godzilla LE 20k - Elvira Premium $15k - Tron LE 20k - some guy asked for 60K a few weeks ago for a Batman SLE. Let’s not forget Beatles ask out of the gate or Elvira 40th people asking 30k. And you’re really complaining about 12k for a brand new game. Don’t you find that slightly hypocritical.

I don’t know just saying. Why is it we as buyers of these games feel its fair game to ask for the sky the moon and the stars but the supplier can’t. Is Black Knight really worth the 20k some people are trying to get for that game right now? Seriously? That same person would ask 20k for their game but then RAIL ON JJP for asking 12k for a game with a top 5 license from Disney.

I again point out to you that NEW GAMES RIGHT NOW ARE CHEAPER THAN USED GAMES! Think about that for a second. Who created this market the sellers or the buyers then resellers????

Easy to point fingers but never look directly in the mirror! Here is the other thing that boggles the mind… KANEDA has been advocated that JJP sell their games for 18 to 25k now he’s complaining about the price. HUH.

Maybe the World right now is just in a place where no one is happy who knows. Play Toy Story it will make you happy. Just give it a try!

Half way into watching the first one and I am already noticing things. For instance, fun things to shoot from right to left: 1) Forky standups (mechanical) to start multiball (mechanical). 2) right alley feeds upper right flipper for a shot at ? and that shot is only makeable by upper flipper. 3) kaboom ramp pops up (mechanical toy) to attempt ball jump (mechanical). 4) behind kaboom is a spinner (mechanical) 5) gabby head pops up (mechanical toy) to bash and it becomes a multiball (mechanical) 6) behind gabby head is newton ball (mechanical) to bash. 7) scoop catches ball and awards value before VUK’ing ball back. 8). Ferris wheel ramp to iPad (8 digital games is an electronic toy). 9) spinning disc (mechanical toy) affects ball path and awards value 10) Lumber building (mechanical 3-ball locking toy) to start multiball (mechanical).

So lots of physical stuff going on that is mechanical in nature. Five are toys, four of which are mechanical toys and one is a digital toy. So if you like to play games by shooting everything eventually, you’ll encounter four mechanical toys and you will be shooting at a digital toy maybe 10% of your time in a game. That is not an overwhelming amount of time required of the digital toy.

Your whole argument is based off of crazy asking prices not sold prices. Just because some people are fishing for a sucker does not mean the whole collector community is stupid enough to bite.

I’m at 1,000 on my DP. And getting there on Mando

FALSE!

Point One: JJP raised the price of Guns N’ Roses LE to $11,000

Point Two: As a follow up Stern Raised the prices of their LE to $11,099

Point Three: Then Stern did the unthinkable they released Elvira 40th and DISTROS asked $30,000 for these games.

Point Four: You say ask not selling price… I don’t disagree with your point because I make that same point myself. Anyone can ask any crazy price doesn’t mean it will sell. But many of these games have sold for these prices, but either way the PERCEPTION which was created by the resellers is that people want to pay up to $38,000 dollars for a Pirates CE, $25,000 for a Tron Le, $30,000 for a Batman SLE, or as I pointed out $16,500 for a Munsters Premium. Look around man there isn’t anyone asking for less than what they paid even for PRO models. Stranger Things PRO have sold for 8 to 9k or more. What is the perception right now coming from the market?

LOOK AT THE BIG AUCTION THAT HAPPENED… we all followed that right??? Don’t tell me that didn’t change the market as well because it did. People DID PAY!

So I think your point about 12k being too much is mute, especially when we’re seeing right now people selling their CE version for up to $20k. Can we at least agree that the FLIP buyers/sellers have creeped into pinball in a big way? Jersey Jack didn’t create this situation and neither did Stern… Stern can ask for 30k for Elvira but if no one pays for it they need to sell it for a lot less. People paid! Remember just a couple years ago certain distros made a sales pitch to never sell higher than MSRP but now almost all of them mark the games up especially on LE versions.

When people STOP buying the prices will go down. People are paying for $7.00 gas right now it’s CRAZY! Everything is CRAZY. I was THIS CLOSE to buying a Lamborghini Aventador for $206,000 they came down from 240 to 216. I was only an inch from saying yes… then covid happened now the same used LAMBO would be about $330k. It’s crazy man. When everyone stops buying things will change. But 12k for a new in box game when Munsters is 16,500 the game isn’t overpriced sorry not by todays market.

Heh, anyone who reviewed most video games with less than 40 hours on it would be dismissed right off the bat.

Edit: Kinda makes sense now why no one takes the Pinside rankings seriously.

STUPID!

Your argument is bizarre. How can you compare a random FS ad on Pinside, eBay, etc. for "game <whatever>" with the cost from a brand new machine MSRP?

JJP LE roughly maps into Sterns Premium and JJP CE maps into Sterns LE...the MSRP difference between Stern and JJP is ~3k. That's the only real apples-to-apples comparison for machines currently in production. Sure, flippers have been gobbling up Stern LE's and flipping them for 15k+, however it's wildly dependent on the license/game. The Elwin designed games typically commanding the highest premium for recently produced games.

Yeah, I got back into pinball thanks to virtual pinball. Now that I have a few machines at home I don’t enjoy virtual pinball nearly as much. Just can’t beat the physicality of a real machine.

It’ll be interesting to see if the digital features on the “tablet” in TS4 pulls in the next generation of kids. They might start playing for the tablet, but get into the hobby for the physical feedback like the rest of us. At the very least, this TS4 is an interesting experiment.

Spot on.

That time is NOW. JJP trying to pass off the BOM of an SE as an LE with a lame fourth movie theme for more money is the turning point. I would rather own any AP game or even Ultraman before buying this disappointment

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Buy a fecking Stern game and quit crying already!

Please someone sell him a Houdini so he will shut up already!

In most markets, I’d be ecstatic if someone told me that 20% of customers in a sample planned to buy my product. Pinball is its own beast, but that poll honestly doesn’t look all that bad, especially considering the likely negative sample bias.

Hey, if I complain and compare TS4 to Oktoberfest, will someone buy it for me?

Dang that Tablet screen is huuuuuuuuuuge, I didn't realize that until looking at the latest YouTube videos. It's a bummer, they could have put it under the playfield and make room for an alien crane mech, that toy alone would have been a game changer for me.

Part of me wants to be happy for the people that like this game and are OK with the price, but the rest of me is frustrated that they're setting a new standard for price/features in New games going forward.

I disagree, I strongly feel its all three. The game is Toy story 4. A movie about toys coming to life. Lack of toys is absolutely one of the complaints. This is the one obvious game that should’ve had some interesting toys/mechs.

I also don’t think it’s because of Disney. There has been several Disney games that had some awesome mechs, for example both pirates games from Stern and JJP just to name a couple. Where are the custom interactive mechs for the last 2 JJP releases?

Apparently Stern is the top company that works hard in the engineering department to create some cool mechs for their games. Loved Godzilla mechs, loved JP mechs.

I guess this is the new direction JJP will be going. What a shame

I think if there was some kick ass interactive toy in the upper left instead of the giant iPad this game would be getting less hate. Yeah I'm sure it's a fun table, I mean it's Pat Lawlor there are likely tons of awesome things going on. But for me personally the iPad is a gargantuan miss. When I think of Toy Story I think of Toys not iPads. Mike Teavee's TV in Wonka made sense, I have yet to hear a good reason why the 10" tablet is a good thing, even from those who have played it.

And no I'm not a virtual pinball hater. I play my virtual pin as much as I play my physical tables. Just seems like such a waste of playfield in a game based on a movie about TOYS.

I completely agree on all of this but I actually didn’t care for Pirates at all. I really wanted to like it.

Also, I am dying to try Jurassic Park as many people with whom I usually agree love that game. I don’t care if it doesn’t have assets from film. Problem is, I am probably a 6/10 in terms of skill and I have heard it’s really a hard one.

Totally agree....But had it not been for JJP, Stern would have never upped their game. At least we have that to be thankful for.

As for JJP, it's obvious that the "bean counters" call the shots these days. Jack's initial vision of fully loaded, modern technology pins is just that....a vision. The old days of JJP are apparently over. That's sad...

Still sells for under MSRP though

Correct

It was over 10 years ago with WOZ Indy. $6500 was unheard of then for a new game.

Jack said he wanted WOZ to be the least innovative game they make.

Not sure why people forget the outrage over price increases for the past decade every time it happened to now

I can remember people being pissed an AC/DC premium was going up $200. $6,400 if I recall.

Every single LE increase people bitched and moaned and laughed at those of us that kept buying them.

Demand, flippers and these guys making great games have caused prices to soar for the past decade.

Look at the Pinside Marketplace, it’s not one or two examples, it’s across the board and that right there is why prices are where they are at today.

Stern will 100% raise prices again.

It’s only gonna end when buyers stop buying in BOTH the NIB and used market.

Maybe this time it’s game over?

I think it is. The $15k mass produced pin market isn’t sustainable long term. I don’t care how much is in a game.

The “price bubble” is gonna burst. Grapple with that one

They could have put a Buzz or Woody ball gobbler in the left corner and made this a modern day Funhouse!

I agree iceman....That's another thing that JJP brought to pinball....higher prices.

My WOZECLE was my 1st NIB pin. At that time, I was really wanting a Scared Stiff, but people were wanting around $7k. At that price, I figured I might as well buy a NIB. I found someone willing to sell their WOZECLE spot for $7.5k. I jumped on it. For what is in TS4, I think manufacturers, (especially JJP) has reached the ceiling. I guess time will tell. My CCrLE is my last NIB purchase. The hobby has gotten crazy.

Thankfully, we still have CGC...They seem to sell the best value these days, by far.

CGC cuts on R&D, coding, designers, marketing, pretty much everything but production and license. It's a very smart business

CGC is by far the best value in pinball....The "NEW" JJP is turning out to be the worst

I agree 100%

IMO...CGC has a bright future. They have Butch Peel, and, most of all...they have LTG.

Yes and No...clearly there was big R&D in the redesign of all the remakes, and they continue to make it better. They also had to revamp all the graphics and are starting to add code to the older games.

I agree....I don't see CGC cutting back at all on R&D. They're making classics even better.

I'm looking forward to their 1st "original title". I thing it'll be a game changer. The partnership they have w/ Rick @ Planetary has a very bright future.

The good old days. Yeah I’ve got Cactus coming and Bond will probably be my last one. Famous last words.

I’ll never forget that feeling of buying a LOTRLE on close out from Automated back then for $5,200, while waiting for WOZ, after getting it set up I thought WTF am I doing spending that much $$$ on a pinball machine.

The insanity, and rationalizing it, is off the charts!

Very kind of you. Thank you !

LTG : )

Yea it might be great...I'm sure they were hoping Lyman would code it....that was a big loss as he was the best

Yes, AYCE Gogi in West Hills. Bring your appetite also!

I agree....Lyman was the best. I'm praying someone will step up to the plate....but there will never be another Lyman.

It just sucks, cause this was the most talked about highly sought after machine…and nothing screams Toy Story. Like I said before, might be fun etc, and don’t care about the price, just did not need the Disney license if you were not going to put in a bunch of cool figures and mechanisms…even from Toy Story 4. It is just a carnival with no Ferris wheel, but topper.

In the end I feel this way too - wiling to pay up as well.

Frightening!

Or well, Frightning. I remember the spelling was peculiar.

Man, it really isn't about stern vs jjp fans, I dont think. I've been the biggest ts4 loudmouth and I love jjp. I've owned woz, hobbit, dialed in and now gnr. Love them all. This game, for me, has a terrible theme, boring/tired Lawlor unoriginal tropes, and terrible music. I dont have to play it to know I don't want those things, and that's not even talking about the price.

I love stern. I love jjp. I love pinball. I'm not excited to play this.

Clash of the disappointments.

Was curious what JJPs TS4 Play field looked like after removing from the BOM:
$26 cake toppers
$16 - 10” LCD
+__________
$42 of the BOM’s probably most expensive parts removed.

JJPs BOM is so low even the bean counters have been breaking out in hysterical laughter.

JJP board room decision makers think: “Boy did we ever pull one over on the FOMO crowd. Super low BOM is just fine, as long as the empty PF is fun to play! Lots of software/video code and tons of LEDs plastered all over the PF works! A new virtual video game era for pinball has begun! Stern made an empty PF with Beatles for nearly half the price. We just proved we could 1 up Stern and get people to buy it for nearly twice. Wait till they see what’s coming next!” LOL!

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This is Jersey Jack’s Led Zeppelin. No need to keep harping on the price. I would easily pay 15K for a game on the same level as GNR CE. Toy Story 4, who cares. Just give me Toys.

….and I will happily pay/play this game on location.

-Cross-posted in the other Toy Story thread too-

So played a bunch of games on TS tonight, and watched a bunch of games being played too. Here are some first impressions:

-The game reminds me heavily of the Toy Story "Midway Mania" ride from Disney World. If you've ever ridden that.

-Game is a smooth and easy shooter for the most part. Lots of makeable shots and it's very possible to do a left ramp to right ramp back-and-forth combo.

-It's a pretty forgiving game, with generally long ball times. That being said, the right outlane was fairly brutal on the TS that I played. Lots of bounce outs from the top of the right inlane.

-Duke Caboom jump-shot is fun, and I found making 2 shots in-a-row fairly easy, but 3 in-a-row hard.

-Music and sounds are mixed for me, some Toy Story stuff, but a lot of just general jingles and jangles, and generic lot-tee-da carnival-esque music. Callouts are good. But the overall soundscape doesn't fully work for me.

-Lot's of clips from TS4, but not a lot of synced audio when the clips played. Remined me of Wonka in that way, but maybe I missed some stuff while watching the ball.

-Code is decent, but missing any kind of real story progression or impactful moments. I didn't feel sucked into the game's world, or pulled into the game on a deeper level. At least not with as far as I progressed in the game tonight. There could be more gold farther into the game.

-Most of the modes are various carnival games, and not movie moments. So they don't feel particularly tied to the Toy Story franchise. Often the game feels like a carnival theme, and not a Toy Story theme.

-Game is very fun, and I didn't feel like anything was missing from a gameplay perspective, but something about the code doesn't fully satisfy.

-Also, I'm not sure about getting to the Wizard Mode being easy. We had some good players playing tonight, and no one made it there. But maybe there's a better path to the Wizard-Mode that we weren't following.

Closing Thought:

Toy Story 4 is very fun to play, and it's nice to have a proper Disney/Pixar theme, but I think TS is at least a couple thousand overpriced. Based on what I saw and played.