Maybe...not sure what the profit margins are for GNR at $9.5K vs TS4 at $12K? I have to imagine they are significantly higher than past games. JJP can always fill a line with past games (WOZ, WW, GNR) if they so choose and dealers are willing to purchase.

There was plenty of GnR whining about trivial things, even after deliveries started. Let me direct your attention to the VIDEO reaction (sound familiar?) in the GnR owner's thread, post 41:

"First reaction to video: the scoop and the spinning record. That's going to the 80% of the shot interaction by your average player. And both are kinda ehhhhh. A scoop dead center, and the spinning record toy we've seen a million times. The middle area is really where you want the big interactive toy or money shot. And it's a scoop?

So what is the big interactive mech in the game? The balls lock on the Gibson head. There's a little upper playfield. A spinner and 3 ramps. Feels like something is missing..."

Feels. Like. Something. Is Missing. Deja vu, even on what's pretty much the most acclaimed JJP pin at launch. Not saying it's impossible for me to join the "I hate TS4 party" at some point, but if I do, it will be after I've spent a lot of hands-on with it.

I’m going to go out on a limb and say you don’t op. A 12k pin is more expensive than most coin op stuff that earns better and breaks less. Skee ball, basketball shooters, 4 player pac man, you name it. Classic arcades have gone up a little but we are talking 1-2k range not 12-15k. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Sure JJP has pushed the market higher but maintaining pinball on location is already a labor of love. At JJP prices it’s just not worth it.

Stern, baby. Stewie mini pinball. CSI Skull lock was pretty cool, too.

I'll give you the Stewie mini pinball, but still that was 15 years ago (and something I didn't ever need to see again. Munsters mini-pf was unnecessary abuse). CSI skull lock is just a vertical iteration on Dr. Who, Pinbot, Bride of Pinbot, Jackbot, ball lock, but it is neat, and also 15 years ago.

Oh, and I just remembered that the water works saucer sweep on Monopoly was kind of a fun idea that I don't think was used in a pin before. But that was also 21 years ago.

My point stands.

Stern making LE’s first

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Stern capturing LE money before it’s gone and they have to start making the “other” models.
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Gary Stern celebrating each sale - knowing $7k is the cheapest model and the sky’s the limit.
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I think the Quantum Theater in Dialed In, is an original mech, a see through screen coupled to a magnet that makes the mech behave differently while displaying the corresponding image on the screen. It can act as a drop target, a spinner, a saucer, it's versatile and brings great depth in a game as a multi facet mech.

I don't thini I have ever seen that before Dialed In.

People claim they know this because it's repeated ad nauseum in collector circles, which is why I bought into it and bought a South Park. In my real world experience of operating it for several years (at multiple types of locations from all-ages to bar) in the heart of the resurgence of pinball, in one of the best cities for location pinball, it was usually at the bottom of my pinball earnings. Plus it had a lot of really irritating bugs and issues and the most obnoxious test menu of all time. I've never been less sad about selling a game. That's just my experience, though. Same has been true for Iron Man and various other games that everyone swore up and down were big earners. Is is true that plenty of older games earn as well as or better than brand new games, though, and often (at least used to) cost way less.

With that said, your point about Toy Story is valid. After being soured on JJP with hellish first-gen WOZ issues I pretty much swore off JJP forever, or at least until they had some years behind them to get their act together. I was finally warming up to them, though, and before it was unveiled I thought I might give them another shot and get a Toy Story for my all-ages ice cream shop location. But for 12k there is just no way it will ever make financial sense. I don't think I could justify it even if I got the location to give me 100% of the earnings on it. This company does not make games for route operators anymore. They don't even try to hide it -- they don't mention earnings potential, serviceability, or use on location anywhere in their promo videos, they just talk about playing it in your basement with your kids. The vast majority of them that you'll ever see on location will be owned by the locations as a loss leader to sell drinks, and even then I think it'll be rare, like one or two per major city. Even Stern Pros are very hard to justify the cost of these days, but at almost double their price, buying this game in an attempt to make money just makes zero sense.

The games coming from the factory set to free play is telling.

Part of being an operator. Having the game your players want. Rotating games and getting the right game in the right location.

Some games haul in money. But not true for each location.

LTG : )

Just got home from playing it. Layout seems pretty cool, but is hampered by the trademark JJP feel. Slingshots that lightly flick, flabby pop bumpers, you know the drill. At this point you've either learned to accept it or will never like it. I'm squarely in the latter camp.

Right flipper is a wet noodle, just crawls around a very shallow, short left ramp. Left flipper is stronger, maybe even cranked up when the jump ramp is active, not sure. But it's weird having two vastly different strengths. My brain can't adjust back & forth. Found myself shooting late on every flaccid right flipper shot, and early on the jump ramp, hitting the left post most of the time. Gotta shoot pretty early on the upper flipper as well. Seems nigh-impossible to hit consecutive loops if you hit 'em clean for a fast feed.

Rear of the playfield feels like a total waste. Four pop bumpers in a cage where the ball is never in danger? Saucer you have to randomly fall into for a Buzz super jackpot? I had one in the pops for 30+ seconds with SJP lit, no luck. Unsatisfying.

And the elephant in the room, the iPad. Don't know what they were thinking. Biggest backbox display in pinball and they need a second one? Looks even bigger & more ridiculous in person. Just on a primal, kinetic satisfaction level, I like seeing the ball go around the ramps. This thing covers up half of them.

As jeffgoldstein2 said a couple hours ago, the jump flap is sitting too high and getting beat up. I had an airball off it that actually completed the jump shot when the ramp was down. Spinning disc could also sit a bit more flush. Scoop kicks out along its right edge, made the feed squirrely a few times.

Anyway, probably sounds like I hate the game, but it's fine, whatever. If you like JJPs this is one of the better ones. Unsurprisingly shoots like a cross between DI and Wonka.

So I bet the Disney Company bought 100 Toy Story CE, they're gonna put them everywhere in their parks, hotels, boats

Oh, forgot to mention, I had an airball land on the cross-playfield habitrail, got stuck on the ramp make switch. Nearly had to get the game up on two legs to dislodge it. Just in case JJP folks are reading this thread, first off, I commend you, secondly, might want to reduce the tension on the switch blade or use a less severe bend. No way to free that stucky without tilting.

Nah. It's just a small screen with a magnet and opto that does the sanctum lock ball pullback performance from The Shadow (and does it way worse). Nothing new there, and way less cool than hyped. Like I said, he's all about pinball's greatest hits.

Everything in pinball is just "something but it does something else." It's a ball in a box with solenoids. Innovation is overrated. I'll take a juicy spinner loop any day over a bluetooth app or whatever.

Not writing this as a slam on TS4, if you like it fine, but think TS4 is going to be a hard lesson learned for those of us that got sucked into the FOMO.

The code looks decent even if it is not the premise of TS4, but it can’t save a barren playfield. If many of us grovel at this fleecing by JJP as acceptable, what kind of signal is that going to send Stern? Remember when we all thought Stern was fleecing us with Beatles at $8K, with a machine that was also barren? Inflation is not so great that prices have jumped $6k on not much more than a Beatles pro. JJP is single handily ruining this hobby, they have abandoned the original concept of giving a loaded PF for our money.

If we buy into what is basically a Stern pro at more than double the MSRP, it tells these morons that we’ll buy anything at any price, so keep doing it to us. I’m stunned how there are such supporters in this hobby for a company that is selling a product that keeps giving us less and less and they’re okay with that. In all other industries, people walk away and vote with their money. Why are there so many cheerleaders and apologists here shouting from the roof tops, they love getting the shaft by JJP in broad daylight? Accepting from JJP (a supposedly high end maker), not much for an astounding $12 to $15k? Shoving a lesser inferior offering on us, than most anything from their past. Why?

(This will mark another terrible milestone for the world of pinball, if enough people don’t say no.)

NEW SDTM: Toy Story 4 Pinball First Impressions

It is ironic, the 2 ultimate JJP shills post their giddy review, right after what I wrote about using some common sense. To walk away from TS4 and vote no more fleecing is acceptable by JJP, for their most inferior offering ever.

It's the combination that makes it new, and having different effects on the ball, I find it super cool especially as the centerpiece of the playfield

Flippers have to keep the narrative positive until they make their profit and fanboys are in denial that their favorite company could do no wrong.

Have you ever owned The Shadow? The ball pullback effect and choreography with the sanctum multiball start is way better there. There's no different effect on the ball in Dialed In. Pass through or pull back, same as The Shadow. If you've never had a Shadow, I highly recommend it.

Keep trying to steer the mob. Hey, can’t blame ya fer tryin’…

Gnr is blasted for its lack of mechs. So that thread was correct.

TS4 looks sparse and childish. I don’t care how it plays, if I’m not feeling it it ain’t happening. Price is ridiculous. Now scalpers ARE JJP.

One last thing: hoping that 15 grand helps the warranty. Anyone got a copy of that?

Yep! The QT is a great example of combining old/new tech in an interesting way. Made that center shot much cooler...loved the virtual spinner!

I sold my DILE after a few years, but it was my favorite JJP (by far). The Betty mech that would block/divert the ball was also cool.

Why do I care? I'm just trying to get the more ridiculous comments back to earth before anyone's had a hand on the machine to actually KNOW whether it's fun or not. It's not like I get anything from JJP if people BUY one. What do you think my angle is on this besides the obvious - none?

And yet, it's an amazing game. There's plenty of mechanical action. Don't take my word for it. It beat Stranger Things and Avengers:IQ for "Best Toys and Gimmicks" TWIPY award. Best Theme Integration, too. And, of course, was awarded Game of the Year over AIQ and Rick and Morty.

Seems like maybe perspective has to do with whether you think it has a lack of mechs (aka "toys and gimmicks").

Opinion based on videos only noted.

Looks like the same one from GnR - Mar 2021 revision where they removed the explicit playfield coverage:
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Same contract, huge price increase. I don’t have to play it to know that an iPad takes up 25% of the pf. Yes some comments are ridiculous, but dammit man…12-15 grand buys a shit ton of kids toys for the tikes in our lives. I cannot wrap my head around any adult buyer actually coveting this theme. Obviously that has me highly skewed in my opinion.

But I do thank you for providing a copy of the warranty.

Thank you.

If you download the manual - https://marketing.jerseyjackpinball.com/ts/Toy_Story_4_Manual_1_0_May_2022.pdf the colorful cover is first then the next part is the warranty.

Come. On. the 10" LCD with frame does not cover 25% of the playfield. I'll measure it out for you when it shows up, but I imagine it's in the 15% range. THIS is exactly the kind of exaggerated complaints based on video alone I'm talking about.

I'm not sure what the bigger crime is, the daft tablet on the playfield or the fact it masks a wireform (sacrilege! burn them!!)

A decade ago having screens everywhere was a big innovation and a total eye catcher. But 10 years later it's just a way of occupying some playfield real estate for the cheapest possible cost.

It looks like all that's left after three days of curb stomping is the choir preaching to the choir.
You guys are in a big circle just admiring each other's ability to regurgitate the same points over and over again!
Go play your pins and get over it already!

Frankly Pinmonk, you sure seem to care, as “Johnny on the spot” always. You’re appearing to be one of the JJP apologists/sales people. The mop up moderator and promoter for JJP. Lol. It’s easy to say hold our opinions till we play it, because all good salesman know that’s an argument to pressure people into buying. Any of us hobbyist know whether this is fun or not, by the streaming of TS4. We don’t have to have hands on, as we’re very experienced with many prior pinball games and how they play.

Just like GNR. "I don't want to play constant multiball with a flashlight waving in my face."

These people hate everything.

Finally got some time on Toy Story for 12k I was not impressed game seemed very average. Also, after handful of plays minor stuff but still, Gabby stopped registering and upper flipper were sticking. IPAD in the corner seemed lazy, but I did like the Caboom ramp was fun to shoot at.

You got "GIaNt iPAd iN ThE CoRnER!!!!" but forgot "SoUNdz LiKE A SlOT MaCHiNE"

You only get 1 of 2 possible Pinside haterade points.

I guess K man canceled his CE

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The last thing Stern needs to worry about is capturing the LE $$$ first when they trade for big premiums in the secondary market.

Even at 1,000 LEs now people are fighting to get one.

With JJP, it would make more sense to capture that CE money although the LE is still $12k so I guess it doesn’t really matter

No surprise there with Chris. Can’t flip it for a profit!

Went from boom to bust on this again?

Ice as one Texan to another, don’t believe they’re even close to being sold out. From what I’m hearing people are not fighting over the chance to buy an empty PF for a shocking $15,000.00. I hear the opposite, people cancelling all over the place. Don’t believe the deceptive salesman’s hype.

A Mirco High Class Playfield!

This is too funny Manadams, lol!

Sporky?

Not everything. But flashlights waving in my face during constant mb’s…

Yes. Another annoying gnr trait. Man, you REALLY hate that game!

Honestly it’s what I would have expected regardless Tbird. Said it when it first dropped.

I don’t see how 1,000 Toy Story CEs are going to sell at $15k, and another 5,000 LEs at $12k

If they actually do, it will be a shocker to me. I bought a Wonka on close out from my distributor who bought the remaining inventory from JJP last year.

Wonka was 500 games at $12,500 and I got it cheaper and am happy with it.

I’d like to hear of any distros with CEs available?

This could end up being another Halloween sell off. Who knows.

As for the gameplay, I don’t pay much attention to anybody else in these early stages.

Some of my favorite games were shit on early. TWD, BM66, STH, and Elvira. Some more than others. Now Lyman was the common denominator of greatness on 3 of them.

So for example, how much more does Elvira or BM66 have in it? I just sold my Elvira LE for $16k because I got a deal on a 40th

How much does a BM66LE go for today? By comparison it’s a barren POS that plays awesome. The turntable mech, so what.

There is no amount of talking it up or talking it down that is going to affect what ultimately happens with TS. If it ends of being a POS then it will suffer in the market and people are gonna lose money.

As for Stern, the next price hike is already baked in. It all started with WOZ!

Oh, and I love my GNR

Everything that’s JJP lol

Short People Got No Reason To Live!

(the best Randy Newman song)