Pat should have put the mini display above the flippers in the pf. Make it look like a Cracker Jack box or something around it. Then in the upper left hand corner he should have made a carousel that would lock all the balls and then shoot them all out a once depending on what mode your in. Lots of wasted potential here. Agreed it should be just called 'Toy Story'. TS4 is our least favorite of them. However, could be a fun shooter.

The stupidity of a few does not set the price tolerance of the many

Fun times!

Always great to see a new pin launch whether you love it or hate or somewhere in between.

I think the biggest question is when the CE Machines are going to arrive. Looks like you can get an LE delivered tomorrow. If you bought one for 15K direct and it takes another 3 months to arrive, maybe it is worth it to purchase someones earlier spot for a small premium. If you really want the game that is.

...Oh, well maybe the biggest question is whether or not the play fields are going to have pooling =)

After watching all of the gameplay videos I think the game looks like a lot of fun. I’m definitely excited to play it in location, but it’s not something I need to own.

Just to echo everybody’s sentiment it’s disappointing the license didn’t lend itself to the entire Toy Story franchise. But I can only imagine how incredibly difficult it was to work with Disney on this. Hopefully this opens the doors to more Disney animated themed pins.

They said Fall for CE shipping, so that's Sept 22nd at the earliest. If I put a deposit on a CE, I'd buy an LE and play it next week until fall then sell it when the CE is imminent.

So JJP didn’t sell out of 1000 $15k CE machines today?!

I think the issue is that people that buy pins at this price, especially the collector editions, are either flippers or people that have enough wealth that they could care less about the price. And the flippers sell to group 2 that didn’t bother or wasn’t able to get it direct.

The average joe that wants a new pinball machine is SOL if they need a ‘reasonable’ price.

Most were allotted to distributors so unless you can claim all distributors sold their allotments already it's a false statement.

That's what Thunderbirds and Spinal Tap are for.

Just for comparison sake. Using coils as they tend to be a good indicator on cost.

GZ Premium Mechs:
Total Coils 10:
3 flippers
2 slingshots
1 autoplunger
1 Bridge coil
1 VUK
1 Ball lock VUK
1 pop bumper

Toy Story:
Total Coils 24 :
4 pop bumpers
3 flippers
2 slings
2 autoplunger + kickback
3 pop up ramp shot and individual controlled posts
1 pop up target
1 vuk
1 saucer
2 Controlled Drop target
2 up posts
3+ diverters

I think you get similar results if you compare other cost like RGBs, playfield glass, display, motors, gimmicks, etc.

I personally don't think the bill of materials comes close between a JJP LE and Stern Premium.

That is not to say that more mechs means a better game. It is amazing how full Stern's games feel when they're in fact quite barren in side by side comparison.

As a side note, I probably missed a coil or two on each count.

Not a bad point, almost want to go to a car analogy here, but won’t

Wow, that is a long wait to get a CE. If you want to get rid of flippers, not only make the deposit nonrefundable, make the deposit nontransferable so that the buyer actually has to pay the full 15K and take delivery. Another way would be to jack up the deposit (no pun intended) to 50% of a CE.

I do not think a manufacturer or distributor really cares about flipping though. Only having to do extra paper work.

The price will be whatever the market can bear as long as there’s some margin over production and operating costs. If JJP set the price too low, then flippers will buy and mark them up. If the price is too high, then distros or even JJP may need to sell inventory at a discount.

So the price is, or will be, what it is. And value is entirely subjective. For some people, this pin will be worth $15K and to others it won’t be worth $500.

The upshot is only you can decide if the purchase price is right for you, and the market as a whole will set the price.

I agree with you, but would change it ever so slightly: If I put a deposit on a CE, I'd buy an LE and play it next week until fall then sell it and the CE lol
Why wait for a game you really want and probably be tired of playing it by then (it is basically the same game).

The people whose wives or kids or whatever want the CE and will keep it aren't selling when it finally arrives, and the LE for 3 months will let them have almost the full experience, except for lighting and topper. But your plan might work for people that were going to flip anyway and don't want to wait 3 months to see if it's even any good.

Nothing says Toy Story like Gabby Gabby multiball!!!

My favorite characters, other than Woody and Buzz, aren't in Toy Story 4, they're in the earlier movies. There is a nostalgia factor with the first two movies that Toy Story 4 doesn't have. I can make shots and achieve goals in pins that don't cost 15K for a CE and there's zero desire to buy a pin based on a movie that I have no attachment to. I looked forward to a theme for several years that didn't meet expectations and it's a bummer. I'm sure that JJP had to deal with Disney's licensing constraints and I understand.

Enjoy your Toy Story 4. I'm happy for those that placed their deposits and it's OK for those of us that didn't buy due to the reasons already listed in many of the posts.

I can’t keep up with ALL the posts without having thoughts get sidetracked. I noticed a lot of complaints about how bare the PF is and where are all the toys/mechs. I thought the same thing when I seen the video. It reminded me of Elvira when I first seen it. It is pretty plain, but it’s a fun pin.

Lots to complain about and that’s what todays pinball crowd seem to like to do best. I think Elvira and the prices for it are crazy too. 20k plus for an updated color of purple is crazy. I think a piece of couch cloth is crazy and somehow adds value to a pin.

Point is, I think all pinball is stupid expensive now and pins need played to have a proper assessment if they are worth the price or not.

than you know you're an old guy, right ? (so do i lol)
those under 50 didnt even know what you're talking about !

I heard pat hired a team from the MIT Jet propulsions lab to design the quantum theater in dialed in. Dude went all out in DI.

Better than "Kids MB" Isn't it?

Lord. Seriously? I remember banging the drum wishing we had 4K displays in the head, and here this screen is shittier quality than an OG Switch. Yeesh.

Hmm. So having stated this, you feel it's a good idea to have more Disney themes, especially after this and POTC?

Well, it's just the playfield screen, but it is disappointing.

Other than that amazing, uh ramp, and that insane er scoop, that shitty quality screen is a major major feature.

I understand we/I have no idea how labor intensive, material cost oriented these games are, but come on JJP, these screens and figures are dirt ass cheap. The game's cost clearly is not.

If I ever buy another game, definitely leaning Stern. I wish American Pinball would shape up...

Oh, and is anyone afraid of that large screen being so low resulting in potential damage?

They've got a clear plastic rectangle over the actual screen, so that's not really a problem, I don't think.

Could you clarify that request? American Pinball ships fun, well built, solid earning games, at prices starting around half the cost of Toy Story 4, with a responsive support department, and company staff actively participating on community forums like Pinside and TiltForums. What else would you like to see from American?

Anyone know the MSRP in Australia? The JJP site in Australia has been down all day. GNR LE was just shy of 17K so I'm expecting a TS4LE to be closer to 20K

Let's face it, with JJP we were promised a world of loaded out games and toys.. things that were missing in Stern pins. That was the premise of JJP. And you paid a premium for it. Now they are just trying to make more profit, like stern. Kind of like saying you're starting a premium car company to offer a premium car (let's say Ferrari), and now you're trying to be more profitable so your cars are now built like high end Fords. Nothing wrong with the high end Ford... unless you wanted a Ferrari. LOL.

Now you are getting a dressed up game without the toys and things that were the basis of buying a JJP. The flash is still there. And the price point is still high. Where's the rest?

First, you have to accept the theme- If this is a star wars pin, this is the equivalent to Episode 1. Then there's the higher price point. Then the fact that toys and mechs are just not there like we expect from JJP games.

Look at the stand-up targets for forky- One thing I LOVE about the hobbit is the mechanical stand-up targets that cycle and make you hit a specific target... just so damn cool!! Then the shot that takes you to a subway behind the stand-up target. It's things like this that make a game stand out and you KNOW it's a premium unique game.. even if the theme is off, it has a mega cool factor that no other game has.

The choice to throw in cheap, fixed stand up targets just goes to show they didn't care about making it special mech wise... for starters, of course.

I priced one out- $12,000, plus tax, plus shipping, is more like $13,000. Everyone is different money wise... but you can get some of the best of the best pinballs in existence for that price point... vs. something that's just new and different.... but not mind blowing or even a theme I want.

On a final point, this just seems like a game geared towards appealing to children. Toy Story is/was a children based theme with massive appeal to adults, yet they have peeled most of that away for some odd reason. There's just too many head-scratchers for me on this one.

Sure it's new pinball, sure I want one because IT IS NEW and FUN and I WANT TO BE THE COOL GUY on the block with the newest JJP machine... owning it would be a "F/U I got money to burn and I'm a cool cat in this hobby" kind of move, don't ya think? I can be the guy that people are saying, "man, Pinball-wiz has one and he doesn't care". You know this machine has wallet-flex written all over it because of all the factors (you're paying top dollar and don't care its TS4 and all the other crap).

How long did it finally take to fix the Houdini audit screen so it didn't crash? We had one on location when the audits were broken with an update that fixed ball problems (so we couldn't go back) and after 6 months of asking for a fix, we finally decided American Pinball wasn't interested in operators putting their machines out (what op would put up with SIX MONTHS of MANUAL MONEY COUNTING?) and Houdini was sold. That was the last AP put on location here. Probably the last ever. Ask Barry about it, he probably remembers. I was asking him to ask Josh to fix it, too. That lack of professionalism would NEVER have happened at Stern. As a critical bug for operators, it would have been fixed in a few weeks or month at the most.

Should I press the Buy it now button

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Sorry, @pinmonk, I do not know the answer to your question. I don't want to litigate any specific problems on another company's thread, so if you (or anyone) have concerns about American Pinball's support today, please don't hesitate to DM me directly, I'll be happy to help. Of course, American works hard to provide games that satisfy both commercial operators and home owners. I only posted in direct response to @wesman's comment.

I have an Godzilla le, but im much more excited for Toy story!

I only posted to make the point that AP DOES have an earned reputation to overcome, based on personal experience I had with super-unprofessional and long-running operator support issues. The person with the other comment you were responding to was not wrong.

That said, I think AP is headed in the right direction, and I hope Nordman's next pin does great things.

I have an spot free for CE directly by JJP since my distributor here in Europe promised me one. PM me

I think the CE pricing should be higher. There is niw already prespot flipping with 2-5K profit. Maybe if they would’ve made 500 CE’s but priced them at 20-25K like the Elvira (which were sold out instantly), they would make even more profit than a 1000 at 15K and there would be a just enough demand to just sell out, and not have double the demand.

Let’s also not forget inflation over the last years, 10-20K for a pinball is the new normal, it will not go down. Also because production costs increase.

Thank you for your feedback. It's good to hear that customers of other pinball manufacturers have received flawless machines and flawless customer support, and I assure you that American Pinball is working hard to achieve a similar level of perfection.

Toy Story 4 looks like a fun game, and I hope that purchasers have a flawless experience. I look forward to playing the game myself.

I didn't get the chance to read the last 20 pages of posts since I was here yesterday, but I think I can safely say a couple things about JJP vs. Disney on this one:

With Disney in control of the art and assets used in this game, it's absolutely going to end up looking like it was designed by committee. --->Check!

Disney probably also demanded that it was TS4 instead of the previous three since they're essentially taking the series in a new direction, one with less Buzz and Woody. --->Check!

Disney probably also dictated that they don't use Buzz as much since he's being spun off into his own movie(and maybe his own franchise if it does well at the box office, as Disney LOVES to do), complete with a replaced voice actor. (Less Buzz also means less Woody. There are also a TON of politics involved here, but that's a completely non-pinball related topic we don't have to get into.) --->Check!

JJP most likely had grandiose ideas for the game but got a number of them shot down by Disney for various reasons. Honestly, I'm surprised they kept the pop-up troll bash toy as it could be easily be considered as anti-female and misogynistic by those that are super-easily offended by things. --->We'll probably find this out in the months/years to come.

Disney also probably demanded a very specific profit margin be made on every single game sold, which also probably coincides with my previous guess, as they have to make sure they get their very high cut of each game sold. --->Again, we probably won't know this until who knows when.

If this all sounds like I'm stacking the odds against Disney and that I'm quite biased against them, it's because I am. I worked for a label company for many years and did many fruit labels for Disney over the years. You would not believe the thickness of the style-guides they gave us for each IP and family of labels/products we printed. For those that don't know, a style-guide is basically a list of rules and do's and don'ts about the artwork elements you'll be using/printing. Disney is EXTREMELY strict with ALL their IP. While most of you will think that that is a good thing, and that they should be strict about the billion dollar IPs they own, Disney just takes things a bit too far. I've been given MANY style-guides over the years and Disney's always trumped everyone else's, needlessly. We did labels under just about all of it, too: Marvel, Princesses, Mickey, Goofy, Star Wars, The Muppets, you name it, we did it. They are the epitome of too many managers and not enough workers, and designed by committee.

I can see all of this massively affecting this game's development and how this game eventually turned out.

If it were me, I probably would've back-burnered the game to theme with TS5 as there's a better chance of it being a better movie after all the backlash over TS4. Then, I would've fast-tracked the Steve Ritchie game to later this year and called it good. Either way, I'll judge the game after I play it.

Sarcastic and unprofessional response to real feedback about prior operator support problems at AP validating the other poster's comment that they "wish AP would shape up."

Alas, tomorrow is another day. Hope springs eternal.

Have you been to Recall labs recently?
You may have been lobotomised….lol

Part of me is wondering whether one could get past the theme a little bit and enjoy Pat Lawlors work for what it is. Who knows if this would be the last pin we see from him. Really love the unique characteristics of his previous games.

Got me ce invoice. $400 shipping

This is a dreadful comparison. You flat out missed the building assembly in godzilla and the turning component of mecha godzilla which modifies the shot. Plus way more habitrails.

Finally, can we stop acting like pop bumpers are the cat's tits? Toy story has four pop bumpers and godzilla has only one. This is addition by subtraction. Pops are worthless.

Counting coils does not a good game make... clearly.

So, can I buy one MSRP then?

If not, it’s sold out.

That it’s available for scalper prices doesn’t count because if it would, then JJP POTC isn’t sold out either.

Allotted vs sold out.. very distinct difference. Unavailable for sale from JJP. Check distributors.

Did you even read my post? I said that the BOM cost does not equate to a good game and I also said that coils were only one aspect of the BOM.

If you're talking other toys between the two.

I would think the stepper motor and rails used for the building and the motor for Mecha Godzilla toy are probably pretty equivalent in cost to the tablet with their custom assembly and spinning wheel mech. If you count the included shaker motor and the camera as toys too, than TS probably also has a bigger BOM for toys too.

I can't think of a single element of the game where I would think that Godzilla would cost more to produce than Toy Story.

I personally do think there is a real difference in BOM cost difference between a Stern Premium and a JJP LE.

Do you honestly think that a Godzilla Premium cost the same to make as a Toy Story LE from a BOM standpoint?

I'm not disagreeing that Elwin is providing a bigger bang for buck in terms of BOM. I'm just stating that one game is clearly more expensive to make than the other.

Edit: I realized I didn't address your habit trails. I would expect the cost of Godzilla's additional habit trails would be about equal in cost to TS rails being as each ramp has some kind of diverter mech and they're all being powder coated.

The one issue with a coil count comparison alone is that it doesn’t account for motorized mechs which from what I’m seeing Toy Story has none. Motorized mechs are typically among the most substantial items in games. Motorized mechs are almost always custom mechs that add value to a game. Take Smaug in Hobbit for example, the monkey mech in WOZ, or the moving ship in Pirates. Toy Story doesn’t have anything like that.

Godzilla has the motorized moving building with a moving gate on top of the building as a ball lock, the motorized moving ramp that when activated opens a shot to another mech with a magnet on it. Those items along with the vertical exposed magnet that we haven’t seen in a game before are substantial and in my opinion far more interactive then a vast majority of coil based mechs.

Would you rather have 4 pop bumpers or a motorized moving building with a motorized ball lock on top of it? I’ll take the building any day.

This simply isn't the case. TS4 CEs were still on sale from distros last night and I expect you can find one at MSRP by calling around if you want one for the foreseeable future. Also, Elivira 40ths are still being sold by some distros who have them but just haven't sold them. Elvira's an odd one because the distros could each set the price and some went far too high. My point is JJP prices are too high for what is being sold.