Quoted from PtownPin:

I don't buy it (and yes its a guess)...many other companies are building games with more mechs and higher BOM's (i.e CGC). CGC's CCRLE is $9200 versus JJP's $12K so its not about JJP maintaining margins its all about increasing margins. This was a historic money grab by the "new" JJP

Quoted from koji:

Doesn't seem like a fair comparison. I don't know what the breakdown is, but I'd imagine the development budget of TS4 would clearly require a lot more R&D effort, artist and licensing costs, as opposed to a remake (all be it, with quite a bit of added work, still nothing next to starting scratch.).

Quoted from Xelz:

I'd find it hard to believe that TS4 didn't cost more to develop than most pins. Those JP de Win video assets are best-in-class. But development costs are fixed. The variable costs on TS4 shouldn't be significantly higher than many if not most other pins. And that includes royalties, which any licensed theme likely has to pay, including Stern's royalties to Disney for Mando.
If their variable costs are higher on TS4, then JJP is doing something wrong with procurement or manufacturing.

Quoted from PtownPin:

I don't buy it (and yes its a guess)...many other companies are building games with more mechs and higher BOM's (i.e CGC). CGC's CCRLE is $9200 versus JJP's $12K so its not about JJP maintaining margins its all about increasing margins. This was a historic money grab by the "new" JJP

Quoted from zermeno68:

I as well wonder what drove the cost of this pin for about $3,000 increase for CE.

Quoted from koji:

Doesn't seem like a fair comparison. I don't know what the breakdown is, but I'd imagine the development budget of TS4 would clearly require a lot more R&D effort, artist and licensing costs, as opposed to a remake (all be it, with quite a bit of added work, still nothing next to starting scratch.).

Quoted from iceman44:

It might be but would you call the pins being sold in the “Pinside Marketplace” as historic money grabs?
Looks like both JJP and Stern see what’s going on. It’s easy to see with our own eyes.
Is the unwritten rule that companies can’t take away the “flipper profit”?
Maybe it backfires on all of them eventually.
I’m gonna go with it’s a title by title phenomenon in the future.
What’s an Elwin Jaws LE gonna be priced at?
Should MSRP be $11k so flippers can turn them for $20k right off the top? Ever since the Metallica LE debacle Stern has been playing catch up
Maybe like JJP, 5,000 “LEs”. It all get ridiculous at some point and maybe we are there.

Quoted from PtownPin:

I guess your point is who makes the profit, which is a very fair point. JJP's strategy is to claim most if not all of the flipper profit short term! Time will tell if thats good business or not....my guess is we've reached the breaking point, and sales #'s for JJP will be way down.

Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

-----------------
And as far as the SE Model goes, how could they have a TS4 SE????
I mean, what could they actually drop from the LE to make it an SE?

Quoted from DakotaMike:

Lose the hot rails, powdercoating, shaker, and invisiglass. And boom, you've got an SE TS4.

Quoted from DakotaMike:

Lose the hot rails, powdercoating, shaker, and invisiglass. And boom, you've got an SE TS4.

Quoted from Palmer:

SE would still be 11K without all that stuff. There is a reason why they didn't include an SE. Not enough to take out to make a large enough difference. Pretty sure everyone would be up in arms if they released an 11K SE. And no one would buy it because the disparity between it and an LE would be too small.

Quoted from PinMonk:

The GnR SE pretty much proved this. It's the rarest version because almost no one bought it.

Quoted from Xelz:

I'd find it hard to believe that TS4 didn't cost more to develop than most pins. Those JP de Win video assets are best-in-class. But development costs are fixed. The variable costs on TS4 shouldn't be significantly higher than many if not most other pins. And that includes royalties, which any licensed theme likely has to pay, including Stern's royalties to Disney for Mando.

Quoted from PinMonk:

That's like $200-250 off the BOM cost. Ain't gonna move the needle.

Quoted from Palmer:

SE would still be 11K without all that stuff. There is a reason why they didn't include an SE. Not enough to take out to make a large enough difference. Pretty sure everyone would be up in arms if they released an 11K SE. And no one would buy it because the disparity between it and an LE would be too small.

Quoted from PinMonk:

That's like $200-250 off the BOM cost. Ain't gonna move the needle.

Quoted from DakotaMike:

Listen guys, you make me chuckle if you think that the actual BOM cost of TS4 has anything to do with the MSRP that JJP is charging. JJP is charging 15k for the CE and 12k for LE, not because it costs them anywhere near that to make them, but because they think they can. JJP looked at the market and decided they could get away with those prices.
I don't think cutting the features I listed would actually reduce JJP's cost by much, but it would be a way for them to differentiate an SE model. The differences between the SE and LE on Dialed In, and on also on Wonka, was even more minimal than what I've suggested for a theoretical TS4 SE.
I'm also not suggesting that JJP actually make an SE model, but someone asked how it could be done, and so I put forth an idea.

Quoted from DakotaMike:

Listen guys, you make me chuckle if you think that the actual BOM cost of TS4 has anything to do with the MSRP that JJP is charging. JJP is charging 15k for the CE and 12k for LE, not because it costs them anywhere near that to make them, but because they think they can. JJP looked at the market and decided they could get away with those prices.
I don't think cutting the features I listed would actually reduce JJP's cost by much, but it would be a way for them to differentiate an SE model. The differences between the SE and LE on Dialed In, and on also on Wonka, was even more minimal than what I've suggested for a theoretical TS4 SE.
I'm also not suggesting that JJP actually make an SE model, but someone asked how it could be done, and so I put forth an idea.

Quoted from flynnibus:

Yet those kinds of differences have generally been the norm for JJP tiers.. until we got GNR and Wonka.
Drop the Powder, drop the shaker, drop invisiglass.. this is how they've always done it.

Quoted from PinMonk:

Right, but that was only the first time JJP did this by taking $1K off the retail off DI LE to make the SE, which you could do with leaving off powder, shaker, invisiglass. As the LE prices increased, more stuff had to be cut, which is why the next two pins, Wonka and GnR had playfield stuff removed (more in line with how Stern does it from Prem/LE down to Pro) to make SE versions, and those stripped games were a lot less desirable, so almost no one bought them. Taking $1k off Toy Story 4 isn't going to do anything positive for sales. The SE would have to be like $2.5k less to get it under $10k and then enough would have been cut that no one would want it. Lose-lose.

Quoted from flynnibus:

Drop the Powder, drop the shaker, drop invisiglass.. this is how they've always done it.

Quoted from PinMonk:

Right, but that was only the first time JJP did this by taking $1K off the retail off DI LE to make the SE, which you could do with leaving off powder, shaker, invisiglass. As the LE prices increased, more stuff had to be cut, which is why the next two pins, Wonka and GnR had playfield stuff removed (more in line with how Stern does it from Prem/LE down to Pro) to make SE versions, and those stripped games were a lot less desirable, so almost no one bought them. Taking $1k off Toy Story 4 isn't going to do anything positive for sales. The SE would have to be like $2.5k less to get it under $10k and then enough would have been cut that no one would want it. Lose-lose.

Quoted from Palmer:

Pretty sure POTC SE was also 1K cheaper than LE (8500 vs 9500). Ah, but they also changed the GI to all white in the SE model so probably not comparable.

Quoted from PinMonk:

Ah, right. PotC. Forgot about that one. They also took out some of the PF decoration like the rock on the left, left out the topper, no starfield (no loss at all). Also an unpopular SE.

Quoted from Doctor6:

I was ao close to buying one back in the day and didn't. Still kicking myself to this day, as the game is so so good.

Quoted from rob3:

Yeah. All this repeating your negative sentiment and basically celebrating/hoping that a $15k investment will drop by 33% overnight is not what a community needs. It’s trolling.

Quoted from flynnibus:

Why would you think things like royalties... that are completely negotiated fees.. and vary depending on what you actually use... as fixed or similar between games?
Or even that development costs are fixed?

Quoted from underlord:

Just as much as the transparents defending purchases. Heaven vs Hell yo.

Quoted from JohnTTwo:

I am glad to see a distro discounting this game, will be interesting to see if others follow suit. Wonder if itwill drop to SE level?

Quoted from zermeno68:

So… what are the odds a distro selling CE for a discount??? Or would this apply to LE’s right now?

Quoted from koji:

Doesn't seem like a fair comparison. I don't know what the breakdown is, but I'd imagine the development budget of TS4 would clearly require a lot more R&D effort, artist and licensing costs, as opposed to a remake (all be it, with quite a bit of added work, still nothing next to starting scratch.).

Quoted from zermeno68:

So… what are the odds a distro selling CE for a discount??? Or would this apply to LE’s right now?

Quoted from JohnTTwo:

I am glad to see a distro discounting this game, will be interesting to see if others follow suit. Wonder if itwill drop to SE level?

Quoted from zermeno68:

So… what are the odds a distro selling CE for a discount??? Or would this apply to LE’s right now?

Quoted from PinMonk:

I don't think we need to open up a trans front on the battle.

Quoted from PinMonk:

Right, but that was only the first time JJP did this by taking $1K off the retail off DI LE to make the SE, which you could do with leaving off powder, shaker, invisiglass. As the LE prices increased, more stuff had to be cut, which is why starting with jjPotC, and continuing with Wonka and GnR playfield stuff was removed (more in line with how Stern does it from Prem/LE down to Pro) to make SE versions, and those stripped games were a lot less desirable, so almost no one bought them. Taking $1k off Toy Story 4 isn't going to do anything positive for sales. The SE would have to be like $2.5k less to get it under $10k and then enough would have been cut that no one would want it. Lose-lose.

Quoted from Damonator:

Patience young Padawan. Flow soon the discounts will...

Quoted from underlord:

???

Quoted from zermeno68:

My impatience got the best of me
Already put my deposit for a CE. Guess I’ll be the one to take the NIB hit.

Quoted from PinMonk:

Wait, so you broke down and got an LE to play while waiting for your CE in the fall?

Quoted from at_t_2d:

Where are you seeing a distributor discounting a Toy Story LE? I have searched around and I am not finding any.

Quoted from explosiveegg:

As someone who hasn't played it yet, there are a ton of contradictory statements.
A lot of people say it's too easy. While another group of people say those outlanes and pops are drain machines. Can't an owner setup their game to be as difficult as they want it to be?
Some people have said the shots are too open. While other people complain that the lock shot, scoop, skill shot, jump shot, and warp target are difficult. Isn't it better to have a good mix of easy and hard shots?
People complain about the flipper feel while other people are saying they're the best feeling JJP flippers. If you don't hate other JJP games flippers, this is a good sign.
There has also been a lot of love and hate for the jump shot. Some people say it's so buttery smooth, others saying it's janky and unsatisfying.
At least both camps tend to agree that it is fun game and expensive.

Quoted from Av8:

This pin must be played before judged.
I was on the negative side until I played it for 2 hours and wanted more. Once I learned the rules and objectives it got much more fun. The Road trip shot is right on the end of the flipper much like Godzilla scoop. So it's the perfect amount of challenge/reward imo. The volume adjustment on the front of cabinet is nice too.

Quoted from iceman44:I agree with that Ptown. The Toy Story 4 theme was a major letdown for most.
Raising the price to $15k and 1,000 units from $12,500 and 500 units was a bit crazy but I get why they did it. Plus they aren’t like Stern pumping out games. It’s been 18 months since GNR which has been their biggest seller, beating out WOZ.
It looks like a really fun game but their shouldn’t be any FOMO rush to go grab one unless you it’s a dream theme, you have kids, etc etc
Stern has been much “incremental” in their price increases but they have come a long ways also

Quoted from big-c66:

Man just got through reading post from the last 2 days it took a little while but wow people were going at it. I found myself agreeing n disagreeing at times n laughing at different times n going man that’s not nice but damn I enjoyed it not a dull moment. Lol