(Topic ID: 140489)

JJP now clear coating playfields!


By Black_Knight

4 years ago



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  • 54 posts
  • 38 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Ball_Shine
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 4 years ago

Got an update today, looks like they are making progress...

https://www.youtube.com/embed/I8CZUBF5FKo

Hopefully I get my SE by Xmas.

#2 4 years ago

That looks exactly like the video that Dutch Pinball put out, doesn't it? Is the same company doing the clear coats on both? Would make sense, since it's already set up to clear a playfield.

#3 4 years ago

That's one hell of a machine, I need one of those.

#4 4 years ago

Very cool. Really hope Hobbit ships soon.

#5 4 years ago
Quoted from woody24:

That looks exactly like the video that Dutch Pinball put out, doesn't it? Is the same company doing the clear coats on both? Would make sense, since it's already set up to clear a playfield.

Yes, the email says the playfields are on the way from Mirco.

#6 4 years ago

Dang, thats some serious robot shit right there

#7 4 years ago

then you wonder how they don't see it when they get imperfections in the clear. And if they only give it one shot like that, no wonder factory clear is tissue paper thin.

#8 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

then you wonder how they don't see it when they get imperfections in the clear. And if they only give it one shot like that, no wonder factory clear is tissue paper thin.

Wouldn't it be smart if they do one layer at a time, stick it back in the rack to dry, then cycle through them all again to give it another coat? We only see one playfield, so we don't know how many layers get added. If it's just one, or multiple.

#9 4 years ago

they need to pick up the playfields flat, not on a slant. Clear runs down hill.

#10 4 years ago

I could watch that machine all day. I think stuff like that is cool. It looks like the clear is going on pretty thin so I'm sure that the little tilt experienced won't cause runs. I also hope, for the buyer's sake, that they're putting more than one coat on.

#11 4 years ago

highclasspinballs had made a lot, at the same time the other playfields.. They are in progress with The-Hobbit and TBL..

Maybe the slow insert-robot cause? Better slow and perfect, than fast and bad..

#12 4 years ago
Quoted from woody24:

Wouldn't it be smart if they do one layer at a time, stick it back in the rack to dry, then cycle through them all again to give it another coat? We only see one playfield, so we don't know how many layers get added. If it's just one, or multiple.

considering how many repo and new playfields people send me to fix and add clear. I'm sure that one shot is all they get.

#13 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

considering how many repo and new playfields people send me to fix and add clear. I'm sure that one shot is all they get.

But Cap how many WOS playfields have you done? I have a new WOS pf hanging on my wall and that clear is as smooth as glass and reflects like a mirror. I'm sure the Hobbit is going to be the same.

22
#15 4 years ago

Hi.

The video was taken this way so that no production secrets are shown. There is of course more than one layer of clear. No one can do such a constant same thickness coat by hand. There is a reason why we use a robot.... we do not have dust in the clear for example. I have not seen a hand clear that is close to our result but you are welcome to show it to me at expo. I tried to improve the process all day.

Regards,
Mirco

#16 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

considering how many repo and new playfields people send me to fix and add clear. I'm sure that one shot is all they get.

What are your thoughts on the $150.00 protector JJP will put on the playfield before they populate the playfield?.Good Idea?.

-1
#17 4 years ago

I dont' know what protector it is, but if it's a full sheet of plastic. I wouldn't be to keen on it. All depends where the edges are. I've seen similar things. And once dirt and other crap gets under it. Does more damage to the playfield than it would have just having the ball grind it in.

The robot is handy i'm sure. YOu don't have to pay someone to do it. He can sit there and crank out cart after cart of playfields. Don't have to stop and clean the gun. The initial cost has to be astronomical. And if there is a problem, like the gun is clogged or something. You wouldn't know it until a whole cart of playfields came out looking like ass. As far as doing it better than a human can. I don't see it being much different. Clear levels itself out. All comes down to how flat you have your playfield to begin with. Not that hard to keep uniform patterns when spraying. It's kind of like the auto industry. Factory paint jobs done by a robot, or hand paint jobs done in a shop. From what i've seen there. Hand paint jobs are far superior to factory robotic ones.

#18 4 years ago

Being an automotive refinish specialist- I can tell you it will all depend on which clear they are using.

High solid
Medium solid
Low solid or
Ceramic clear.

I can tell you for certain 1 and a half coats of High solid ceramic clear is miles better than 3 coats of regular medium solid clear, or 25 coats of acrylic clear, which is often the standard out there.

#19 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

I dont' know what protector it is, but if it's a full sheet of plastic. I wouldn't be to keen on it. All depends where the edges are. I've seen similar things. And once dirt and other crap gets under it. Does more damage to the playfield than it would have just having the ball grind it in.

playfield protectors are shiete. its not the true feel of the game, with the ball rolling around on a plastic sheet.

#20 4 years ago

The robot has a weight control system which checks the amount of used clear per playfield. If it changes the robot stops immediately. This is a high performance machine with lots of parameters being watched. Not sure how you got the idea that a whole rack would have issues. Industry machines are little different here...

Regards, Mirco

#21 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

Hand paint jobs are far superior to factory robotic ones.

Ehhh. I prefer the robotic handjob myself. Best of both worlds IMO

#22 4 years ago
Quoted from Highclasspinball:

The robot has a weight control system which checks the amount of used clear per playfield. If it changes the robot stops immediately. This is a high performance machine with lots of parameters being watched. Not sure how you got the idea that a whole rack would have issues. Industry machines are little different here...
Regards, Mirco

I worked 14 years for a company that built and serviced similar type of Industrial machines for automotive assembly lines. So can say first-hand if there is any kind of a problem the robot will shut down right away.

#23 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

As far as doing it better than a human can. I don't see it being much different.

Maybe better isn't the point. Maybe it's consistency.

#24 4 years ago

Yes and hand routered playfields are much better than cnc'ed ones.... Seriously that robot would shit on any hand sprayed playfields done in that quantity.

#25 4 years ago

I guess so long as they don't chip around pops and holes like WoZ did on many playfields [not all] I'm good with it.
I've setup a TON of WoZ and never really had an issue with the thichness of the clear or the "flatness" of it.

sure, a PFR or HSA hand cleared and sanded playfield will ALWAYS look better, but it's not feasible when you're dealing with 1000 playfields.

#26 4 years ago
Quoted from dgoett:

I guess so long as they don't chip around pops and holes like WoZ did on many playfields [not all] I'm good with it.

Different company did those, jjp went to micro for later runs.

#27 4 years ago
Quoted from PinPatch:

Seriously that robot would shit on any hand sprayed playfields done in that quantity.

jtnMR81.png

#28 4 years ago

Mirco, how long do these cure before they are installed?

#29 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

...As far as doing it better than a human can. I don't see it being much different. Clear levels itself out. All comes down to how flat you have your playfield to begin with. Not that hard to keep uniform patterns when spraying. It's kind of like the auto industry. Factory paint jobs done by a robot, or hand paint jobs done in a shop. From what i've seen there. Hand paint jobs are far superior to factory robotic ones.

The quality of the robotic spray is determined by the end user. Try clearing 400 playfields in one day sometime and let's see how good your( or anyone's)work is.

#30 4 years ago

One appreciates the price of repro playfields after watching this

#31 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

I dont' know what protector it is, but if it's a full sheet of plastic. I wouldn't be to keen on it. All depends where the edges are. I've seen similar things. And once dirt and other crap gets under it. Does more damage to the playfield than it would have just having the ball grind it in.
The robot is handy i'm sure. YOu don't have to pay someone to do it. He can sit there and crank out cart after cart of playfields. Don't have to stop and clean the gun. The initial cost has to be astronomical. And if there is a problem, like the gun is clogged or something. You wouldn't know it until a whole cart of playfields came out looking like ass. As far as doing it better than a human can. I don't see it being much different. Clear levels itself out. All comes down to how flat you have your playfield to begin with. Not that hard to keep uniform patterns when spraying. It's kind of like the auto industry. Factory paint jobs done by a robot, or hand paint jobs done in a shop. From what i've seen there. Hand paint jobs are far superior to factory robotic ones.

Good hand sprayed cars are superior based on the the addition work the shop does to achieve a superior finish. Wet sanding, buffing until the finish looks like a mirror. I think the finish on average cars today is pretty good and it's all done by robots with humans only fixing imperfections. But a good shop will do a better job and you'll pay big money for it.

-3
#32 4 years ago
Quoted from chessiv:

Good hand sprayed cars are superior based on the the addition work the shop does to achieve a superior finish. Wet sanding, buffing until the finish looks like a mirror. I think the finish on average cars today is pretty good and it's all done by robots with humans only fixing imperfections. But a good shop will do a better job and you'll pay big money for it.

I agree. He was saying robotic is superior. Every new car my friends bought recently, have major orange peel. Paint jobs look like shit. But they are not buying ferrari's either. Still new cars. Mass production can never put in the time that individuals can. The only flaw I can see with the robot, is over time. Overspray will attach to the robot. and get to the point, that shit is just falling in the clear from overspray buildup. Unless they are wiping the robot down with lacquer thinner every session. Saying they do not get dust in the clear with this method, doesn't seem possible. for one, it did not look like a clean room environment. 2. all the moving parts of the robot would have to kick up more dust than a human. Just from sheer size and moves. 3. the overspray self sticky situation. All in all, it's pretty awesome and great for production. But to say it's cleaner, and better than anything a human can do. Penn & Teller would have to call bullshit.

29
#33 4 years ago

Pinside...

Everyone is an expert...

Everything is an argument...

I'm just over here like "cool video"...

#34 4 years ago
Quoted from Highclasspinball:

Hi.
The video was taken this way so that no production secrets are shown. There is of course more than one layer of clear. No one can do such a constant same thickness coat by hand. There is a reason why we use a robot.... we do not have dust in the clear for example. I have not seen a hand clear that is close to our result but you are welcome to show it to me at expo. I tried to improve the process all day.
Regards,
Mirco

I will bring you a Ron Kruzman playfield to expo for you to judge. Too bad we can't do a comparison on these 2 pf's with 5000 plays.

I am in no way bashing your product or your robot but i have seen many of your completed pf's hell i am buying another one from you at expo and the clear does not hold a candle to a Kruzman pf. Your new system i don't know so i guess i will find out.

Look forward to meeting you at Expo.

Chris
www.rockcustompinball.com

#35 4 years ago
Quoted from Black_Knight:

Got an update today, looks like they are making progress...
https://www.youtube.com/embed/I8CZUBF5FKo
Hopefully I get my SE by Xmas.

I don't want to be near that thing on Judgement Day.

#36 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

I agree. He was saying robotic is superior. Every new car my friends bought recently, have major orange peel. Paint jobs look like shit. But they are not buying ferrari's either. Still new cars. Mass production can never put in the time that individuals can. The only flaw I can see with the robot, is over time. Overspray will attach to the robot. and get to the point, that shit is just falling in the clear from overspray buildup. Unless they are wiping the robot down with lacquer thinner every session. Saying they do not get dust in the clear with this method, doesn't seem possible. for one, it did not look like a clean room environment. 2. all the moving parts of the robot would have to kick up more dust than a human. Just from sheer size and moves. 3. the overspray self sticky situation. All in all, it's pretty awesome and great for production. But to say it's cleaner, and better than anything a human can do. Penn & Teller would have to call bullshit.

I've also seen some really bad paint jobs by body shops.

#37 4 years ago

I'm not a robot fan for clear coating playfields, or doing inserts. Hope I'm proven wrong, but not likely. Started to worry already with my WOZ 75th. I almost cringe at seeing the video.

#38 4 years ago
Quoted from chessiv:

Good hand sprayed cars are superior based on the the addition work the shop does to achieve a superior finish. Wet sanding, buffing until the finish looks like a mirror. I think the finish on average cars today is pretty good and it's all done by robots with humans only fixing imperfections. But a good shop will do a better job and you'll pay big money for it.

You got that right. I watched my body guy work the clear on one of my Mustang doors with 5000 wet grit, was that amazing. The whole car is painted and I go see it tomorrow for the first time, he tells me it looks like a black mirror.

#39 4 years ago

Seems NEVER to be a topic that can't be muddled by car analogies

I agree, a hand sprayed car CAN (*CAN*) be superior to a factory robot job.

The issue is the skill of the painter, however, and the quality of the product used. Can you always be sure that the labor is performed by a "craftsman" - or did the job just get assigned to the high-school dropout in his first week on the job? Note- talking car paint jobs here- not pinball.

But the point is, the robot is likely far more CONSISTENT and not as contingent on the skill level of the painter for a decent job. In todays age of inconsistent workmanship, the robot is (sadly) probably the best bet.

That aside:
I found the video interesting to watch.

Nice to see JJP pumping out news on the progress on the machines..... it seems like there had been a long drought!.

Let's hurry-up and get these flying out the door (so I can see the Lawlor game)

#40 4 years ago

You need to watch the video. Even myself doing clear knows if something seems wrong. A robot doesn't know shit! I cringe at that video, & will let others figure out the problems.

#41 4 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

You need to watch the video. Even myself doing clear knows if something seems wrong. A robot doesn't know shit! I cringe at that video, & will let others figure out the problems.

While the robot is spraying, would the racked playfields be catching any of the aerosolized clear coat in the air?

#42 4 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

You need to watch the video. Even myself doing clear knows if something seems wrong. A robot doesn't know shit! I cringe at that video, & will let others figure out the problems.

Doesn't make me cringe. Clearcoat isn't some giant mystery that only craftsmen deep in the woods who've studied at secret monasteries have figured out. Robot clearcoat is a standard industry thing, it's not a big deal.

But I think people spend way too much time obsessing over clearcoat. I don't want my playfield to win first place at the "deep and shiny" contest at the local car show.

#43 4 years ago

Here's a Mirco WOZ playfield Chris Hutchins of HEP recleared for me. The finish was pretty decent but still seemed to have some directional flow to the clear. Speculation was that when the robot lifted the playfield on that slight incline it just ever so slightly let the clear run downhill. image.jpg

#44 4 years ago

that video is pretty fk'n sweet.

#45 4 years ago
Quoted from PW79:

Everyone is an expert...
Everything is an argument...

As a professional ________ who worked in the ________ industry for __ years I can tell you that you are ___% ________ on your statement

#46 4 years ago

Was the surface properly prepped prior to clearcoating? That should be the question . Put on by man or machine , doesn't matter if the surface isn't properly prepared to receive a clearcaot .Who prepped it ? Man (or woman ) I would guess , That's important and prep work is more important than who ,or what puts the clear on .

#47 4 years ago
Quoted from chessiv:

I've also seen some really bad paint jobs by body shops.

I agree. I'm not saying it's always better. It can look like shit no matter who does it. Also can look great from both methods. But to say one can do work the other can't. Isn't really true. Each can have the pros and cons. But like I said. for manufacturing. This is a very valuable asset.

#48 4 years ago
Quoted from trilogybeer:

Was the surface properly prepped prior to clearcoating? That should be the question . Put on by man or machine , doesn't matter if the surface isn't properly prepared to receive a clearcaot .Who prepped it ? Man (or woman ) I would guess , That's important and prep work is more important than who ,or what puts the clear on .

and i'll say a Lionman! to that.

#49 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

But I think people spend way too much time obsessing over clearcoat.

Especially for a HUO machine that will get 100's of plays, not 1000's

#50 4 years ago

"But I think people spend way too much time obsessing over clearcoat"

Lots of people share your opinion. There are a lot of people, who are perfectionist in every part of their life. They want the best, and they take care of their stuff and are proud of it. I have friends who would never restore a pf in one of their games, and I have friends who have me do a new cleared, perfected pf in every one of their games.

I think pf swaps are a buttload of work and if I am going to do that much work and spend that much money, I would want the absolute best, and nothing less. That is just me. It is actually the reason I got in to this job, and lucky for me there are enough people who feel the same to keep me working a lot more than I want to. It is a good thing I enjoy what I do because if I had children there is no way I could do this for a living!!

Just like some people clean the windows in their house every month, some people never. neither is right or better, it is just behavior.
Personally, I would rather do without than have something that is not stunning. that's just me.

I wanted to say another thing. The reason I don't use ceramic clear coat, which is harder than what I use, is because after the last coat I cant sand it level, and buff out any orange peal. I have tested different clears, and gone to manufactures schools, and found the hardest clear I can find that gives me a 5 day window to wet sand, to remove the lips around all of the holes and any imperfections. I used to use really expensive boutique paints, but they are made for show cars, that are constantly buffed and polished. they are made softer so they can be fixed if there is scratching or any other problem. Clear is still expensive either way. the stuff I use is 170 a gal plus the hardener is 45, maybe more I don't remember. I end up spraying about 56 oz on each pf if there are no re-dos on it. I have been saving for a newer gun that has 30% less over spray than mine. It will be super cool to see the difference in my checking acct.
Just sharin my opinion

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