If pat considered TZ a mistake (wtf) then why make Road Show?

And Addams Family with 20,000 machines produced...show us where Lawlor thinks TZ was a mistake.

Didn't it we already know JJP wides were done?

That's a weak argument. If all the normal pins were at 20k each, then I'd agree. You can't use that argument for everything. Can you use that logic for pins with hands in them? Pins with four flippers? Pins with the word family" in it prove that those sell better? Just coincidence from an era where pins sold actually well.

No way, seems harsh to post that from JJP and can’t be true, just need to figure out how to make a JJP pin play fast or faster

Have you played a Wonka that's dialed in?

Yea, they are probably going Stern way, the less that is in the game, the better.
A couple of plastic ramp and as far from a world under glass that is possible.

Art and code is cheap and doesn't come broken.

Only JJP pin not played yet, want too and heard good things.

Ha!

How do you say "fucking bean counter" in Swedish?

Crank up the back legs and remove the out lane rubbers. Problem solved

My point was that between AF, TZ, and RS some 40,000 games were built. I’ve read a lot on the development of TZ and have never heard that Lawlor thought it was a mistake.

Don’t get me wrong I love everything in a JJP pin but can’t get that Steve Ritchie feel or flow if you know what I mean and hope GNR delivers it.

Helvetes ekonomiavdelning.

Well they can't all have the sweet flow of TFTC

Takk!

The only thing Lawlor considered a mistake with TZ was the complexity. He made a fake for hardcores & location players didn’t understand it at all.

B/W collectors loved widebodies & that’s why JJP started with them. Buyers/collectors changed from B/W fans to Stern Army...and Stern Army were mostly fast/flow fans, and became the tastemakers....they declared widebodies = bad, so here we are.

*typo..meant “game”, not “fake”

You mean: every JJP widebody? Because DI is definitely not a slow boat...

Have you played a dialed in that's Wonka?

Imo that's not it. B/W collectors don't love widebodies (except for TZ maybe). The superpin thing by Williams failed in the 90ies and B/W collectors don't search for Judge Dredd or RoadShow

As far as I understand it, JJP wanted to offer more on the playfield than Stern. He chose for widebodies as that way they could physically fit more onto the playfield.

The rest of your post I agree with

Probably because DI isn’t a widebody too

I had heard over a year that they were done making wide body games. But people did not believe.

Well that sucks if true I love wide body look at potc .. awesome

I think they should continue to make both and let the designers dictate how they want to do it. If not, designs will begin to get stale quicker. Some themes are just better as a wide body with more stop and go play. Variety is a good thing!

You need an extra sheet of wood to make a wide body cabinet is the reason I heard for WMS stopping them. They were just more expensive because you couldn’t get a cabinet out of a 4x8.

I didn’t know if you could make a complete cabinet with one sheet. Seems far fetched, maybe if you don’t include the cabinet bottom or backbox.

So...like a whole $20 sheet of plywood more? Seriously, it doesn’t make sense to eliminate wide body’s and until jjp actually confirms no more widebody pins, I won’t believe it.

Just something a WMS employee told me a loooong ass time ago. I don't have specific details beyond that mention.

I never heard that about widebodies ?
I did hear that the P2K cabinet size was designed with the wood sheet in mind, to keep it uptimised (whole cab out of 1 sheet / minimize losses).

TAF isn't a widebody.

Cabinet =front , back , bottom, neck
Glass.
Lockdown bar.
Lockdown bar receiver. ?
Rear glass molding.
Playfield

I'm sure it adds up for JJP. Williams ran 7 pin Super Pin series, so with big numbers , most likely not too bad cost wise.

Raise the pitch, increase the power to the flippers. Problem solved. My WOZ is fast and brutal. Not much flow. It is a stop and go game. But a slow boat it is not.

Oh that’s right...my bad. I’ve owned RS is the past but TAF hasn’t been in my collection. Anyhow, I agree with Rarehero that complexity was the only concern with TZ. “Flip here” added to the upper play field, third spiral magnet removed, etc. Development costs were also high.

Not me. I enjoy playing JJP's widebody games!

Um... Indiana Jones is another B/W widebody that is quite popular.

Just like Atari pins.

IIRC they were closed out at the end of the run. That's usually bad from a manufacturing standpoint. I do know for sure that they broke on location all the time and were considered a turd by the operators. They used to be <$800 to pick up back in the day because of the issues. Now, STTNG broke all the time back in the day as well, but was earning a FORTUNE on location, so much so that operators would sell them for $6-$7000 to other operators.

The cashbox was king in those days.

Well we also didn't know he was to be referred to as Lord Lawlor!

Why yes I have sir.

Narrow bodies are cheaper to make, more fun to play and easier to move.

Having a wide body as a USP was never a great move.

So easy to confirm your recall is incorrect.

15,235

I'll give you 'moving bigger, heavier games' isn't better, but "more fun"?... uhhhhh, no.

Wide bodies allow designers more room for innovation. <- fact
Wide bodies have an overweight representation of the best games in pinball. <-fact
Houdini and Alice Cooper likely would have been more fun in a wide body format. <- my opinion

I don't see how posting the production proves they weren't closed out? BK2K was closed out as well. It just means they didn't sell as many at full boat as they'd hoped.

You only have to look back through old Replay magazines to see that operators were selling them very cheaply a couple months later as well.

I have 2 Gottlieb extra wide bodies and they are frickin' heavy as hell!

I generally prefer slim, normal body games to the tugboat barge widebodies.

Twilight Zones were absolutely closed out.
I bought mine in 1993 from American Vending and Sales for $2250 NIB (Dan Clarton sold me the game).
This distributor had 90 of them NIB in the warehouse and when they lowered the price to $2250, they were all gone in a week.

- Lyman

Quite possible that Eric just wanted to do a standard body game for his second, since his first game being a wide body was awesome.

I have heard a couple times Jack say it was up to the designer on what format is being made. Plus, I am pretty sure they will still continue to make WOZ variations.

I guess I am not jumping on the "JJP is moving to std body pins" outright until something is officially announced. Regardless, loving all of the new pins coming out from all of the mfrs!

I certainly hope so.

Boy is that stupid.

What he said. Even still this does not mean they will never make any again. Companies change their minds all of the time. Personnel at companies change all the time.

The Chevy Camaro was supposedly dead back in 2002. Oh, then they brought it back 8 years later. Now it is rumored to be dead again. And nobody ever thought the Corvette would end up being a mid-engine someday.

Products are like cats...they CAN have more than one life and specifications can/do change.

The wide body pin will never be dead. Was it dead before JJP announced WOZ? Was it dead when pinball was supposedly dead?

Give it a few years with zero wide body pins not being made and suddenly customers will be asking for them and someone will make another again.