So Charlie made Jack switch to decals?

For the most part it looks like this will be a good thing, both for JJP and the pin community in general.
Announcement was more than the usual "production is increasing all the time".
We can all speculate endlessly about the ins and outs of the deal, and it's ramifications, but really, I'm just happy to know Jack has two solid feet to stand on and can focus on making some kick-ass games!

On the forum in reply to when will more LE cabs arrive, Jack stated "When they ship from the cabinet guy who is on vacation in Mexico - I would say one day next week" So LE production hopefully isn't delayed too much longer.
Sounds to me like once the WOZLE's are done, decals will be the standard for all future games, not just WOZ standards, but all JJP games, unless another supplier comes into the picture. (Not official, just my reading in between the lines)
On the whole feeling alot better about the situation, even if there are still some bumps to iron out.

Ok, what? What did I miss? Jack has switched to decals on standard games?
For the le price I'm assuming.
Wow, just wow. I have been a strong jjp supporter since day one. I met jack at pagg last year and he seemed to be one of us. I'm really at the point now where I just don't care anymore.
I'm really rooting for spooky, heighway, and the guy building wrath of Olympus.
They have the stones to build original theme games without the le pre order let you wait for years for a game bs.
I still wish jjp much success but they need to look real hard at who has been loyal to them and take care of them first. As ozzy once said, you meet a lot of people on the way up. Don't screw them because you will see them on the way back down.

Yes and looks like all future games. JJP's web site has already been updated. The "direct printed and clearcoated cabinets" is no longer listed for WOZ, 75th, and The Hobbit.

I agree - le was logical on tron only as it was different same for x-men but well the community did not care. 75th addition is a joke - says the guy with metle also a joke, but the translight was so bad on the premium what do you do?

I knew this would happen, but not this soon.
People I speak with thought it'd happen sooner and they were right.
This means that needed funding to keep things in gear sooner than later,
again, I thought it'd happen later, so they needed it more than I thought.
This could be good for all of those involved, TBD.

OR, cost cutting...

That's funny.

The most important lesson to take from all of this is to stop crowdfunding these pinball businesses. There is capital dying to fund entrepreneurs with good business plans and products. I said over a year ago that JJP would run out of money before the pre-orders were filled. I said he would ship to new money before the youngest of the old money. And now that an angel investor has shown up, maybe all the preorders will be filled. All I'm really trying to say is that very few people know the actual financial position JJP and if WOZ was profitable, JJP would have taken on a bank loan rather than a partner.

For those of you who know at least a little about business, what is preferred - an ongoing interest expense with a horizon or giving away a significant percentage of your business for an immediate cash infusion. And more importantly, what are the reasons for both choices?

Sorry in advance to all this truth upsets.

Crap. I know all the wrong investors and have all the wrong uncles

Makes me wonder how much of this (if any) is part of Jack's exit strategy.

Usually that rich uncle will steal a truckload of product now and then and when you don't pay him enough money, he burns your business down for the insurance. Your oversimplification and naivety are laughable.

What's funniest about the whole press release is how JDA is described while not giving the fomal company name or names of any of the principals. I think the company may actually be Jack's Dead Aunt, LLC and this is nothing more than a ruse to get more preorders on the machine following hobbit. But I'm just a cynic. Maybe it is JDA Investments, LLC, but we would never know that from the press release I read. Your guess is as good as mine... and mine is as good as your's.

You need to step away from the keyboard for a bit

None of it? FFS, you think all this time and work was just to try and bail? There are easier ways to try and parachute out, believe me.

You have an uncle in the furniture business

Quick, without looking can you name the company that did the exact same sort of investment in Stern Pinball?

Based JUST on Stern, before investors they had just completed the games 24, CSI, Big Buck Hunter, Iron Man and NBA. And for the record, everyone in the collector community except for me despised the "cost cut like crazy" Iron Man, it didn't have the reputation it does now for being awesome. There had been massive layoffs at Stern, and the rumored end was in sight.

If you're seriously out there rooting for this to fail, you should be heading to a different web site and getting a new hobby, because you are also rooting for Stern to fail.

I see no reason for alarm, and quite frankly I think this is a hugely positive development. As I've said before, I get the wishing things happened quicker, but without going into a (more) giant post, if when you bought in you thought that they could get 1,000 LEs out the door on the same day or even in the same month, you would be crazy. It's taken time because every step of the way, Jack has done what is best for the game, and it shows to anyone who has seen it. He thought things would happen quicker, but he has been transparent about why not the entire time.

I really just don't get why people feel the need to take sides here. If you don't have a game ordered, stop posting with exuberance if you feel that something is or isn't working out. If you have a game ordered and you have an issue, I am positive Jack would be more than happy to take your call and discuss it with you.

Next features to be cut, we always wanted to use translites not screened backglasses the print turns out much nicer? The hobit no longer a wide body for better integration with the LCD. RGB lighting is inferior to the incandescent bulbs and ops want it so we will no longer offer RGB.

I am sorry, I like Jack. I believe he is sincere. I usually never post anything for or against JJP. But the decals cost more and have been requested??? Bull crap. He has done some really shotty things to his customers 75th anniversary edition and now decals???

And this is what exposes your irrational exuberance. I'm not rooting for JJP to fail. And you are totally prejudiced in inferring that I am. Tell me again just how many WOZLE's have been shoved to the back of the bus while we're now hearing of supply chain problems for machines that were paid in full years ago.

I think you should take your hand out of your pants while you thinking about JJP and accept the fact that crowdfunding is bullshit and the P in JJP isn't Pinball, it's Ponzi. No one ever said it was easy, but the whole way JJP has gone about the process makes it pretty f^(king obvious why everything is shrouded in half baked promises and innuendo. I'm totally rooting for a multitude of pinball manufacturers, but just because the obvious inferences I point out don't jive with your predispositions, you totally erect a strawman to attack me with.

Sure, Stern took white knight money during the death of pinball and staved off the grim reaper. WTH does that have to do with JJP taking angel capital when their production is running wide open and the majority of it was cashflowed years in advance, irrational fanboy?

Did you get your $2500 in for hobbit? Are you going to get another $1500 in in the next 30 days? You just keep sending in the checks and I'm sure your Nigerian Prince will deliver. For those of us who have eyes that see and ears that hear, we won't be buying your WOZ parts with our Hobbit money. If JJP is cashflowing, why do they need anything more than the initial $2500? Do you have a definite ship date with liquidated damages for missing it? I didn't think so. "It's called doubling down".

I wish them success, but their sales/funding structure almost guarantees failure. And like I said before, a deposit on a future order is nothing more than an unsecured loan to the unethical salesman who took your money prematurely. Don't be surprised when something goes wrong and a simple bankruptcy filing washes away your money while the slippery company keeps selling and producing into the future. Don't you understand the business process? Ask the Ozzies that paid in advance and aren't getting their machines. I say, "Too f^(king bad!" Do you pay a contractor 2 years in advance for building you a garage and then cry when he moves to Hawaii with your money?

Why is this obvious to only so few of us?

What I'm really saying is taking in an equity partner is a bad, bad sign on the heels of JJP's funding model. The only thing that could possibly justify it would be a massive increase in their production levels. I didn't see any announcements of increased production space or automation to be bought with the capital in that press release.

_{Post edited by absocountry2 : Profanity edited and ban vote sent. Profanity and attacking and being rude to others is not allowed. This post is rude, rule #1, be nice.}

BTW, who exactly is JDA?

I may be one of the few who remembers when this started and I stayed with the posts on it. However, I do recall "in the beginning" that jack was talking about doing decaled cabinets coated in clearcoat and thought they would be spectacular due to the high resolution they would be printed at. Somewhere along the line things changed to what they are now and I dont not reacall how it all happened. Its all superior to Sterns ink jet cabs that wash off if you clean them with alchohol and water together anyhow. But it all looks fantistic and will have its place in the anals of limited edition pinball possibilities cuase it all looks good. Enjoy it, and enjoy the differences you find between you and your friends games. On the LEs they have four different backglasses with a different callout from the movie.. try to find them all. .

1) Ellipses? Check.
2) New Account? Check.
3) Massive Post? Check.
4) Reference to earlier points? Check.
5) Verbose investment advice? Check.

You ever meet a guy named houseofpin? You'd get along swimmingly!

Agree with a lot written above but lets see how it all pans out. To achieve positive cash flow and give the new equity partners a ROI, basically they have to sell a ton more product and increase profit margins. I suspect they may diversify in some way as the market doesn't seem big enough for rapid expansion.

I believe he wants to have profitable, stable business which he can sell his stake to fully fund his retirement. Should I have prefaced this with a "FFS"?

Great post! I pre-ordered a car 7 months ago with 0 down. When I signed up, the dealer said if I didn't like it, he'd simply sell it to someone else.

When JJP decided to ship very incomplete software, I got a refund. If they decide to use decals, they should just clearly articulate the plan. If someone can't live with decals, they should get a refund. No big deal. Shit happens.

Has anyone seen what happens to the LE cabinet when u scratch it? Once the cabinet art is chipped it flakes off like clear coated paint... I don't know how big a hit the art has to take for it to happen, but I have seen it on a prototype game I had. I could grab a edge near the dent and pull the paint up with my finger nail.. Under the paint all u see is white..so if you scratch or dent a direct print don't think it's not going to happen.. Nothing is perfect when its compromised. Decals or direct print...

Lorenzo
Pinnovators.com

There was a learning curve involved with the whole ink/clear process which occurred with the prototypes. You shouldn't have that issue with any others.

The over-analysis and armchair micro-management that goes on here is actually painful to watch - I'm glad I haven't been.

Some of you sound like you need a hobby - do you ever actually PLAY pinball? Or do you just type on the internet all day?

Just sayin'

Same cabinet as one of the 20 or so prototype games to my knowledge.
Try it on the regular... Bet it still does if u crack the clear coat...nothing is perfect no matter which method u use.

Say what you will about who is responsible for driving LE prices up, but I don't think JJP is the one who ran with the ball about creating LE games that are all about exclusivity - buy now or you'll miss out on something important. Of course "limited" means "limited", but at least with Jack's current model the playfield doesn't change and, for the most part, even the additional items can be bought separately (for good or bad). Hell, even the LE now has another LE just in case you missed out on the first time (again for good or bad). On the other hand, I think the epitome of an "exclusive" game is Tron LE, because you can't even get that playfield layout elsewhere - now there's having something others don't.

This whole thing could blow up in their face if people who have waited 2+ years don't get what they ordered and don't get what others have - a silk screened cabinet.

Just to clarify, they're not silkscreened. That's what Stern used up until the change to decals. JJP is/was/whatever using a direct ink printing process.

Like I've said before, I can pre-order a $90,000 car with just $500.

Volkswagen 2012 worldwide revenue: $265 billion
Toyota 2013 worldwide revenue: $210 billion
Daimler 2012 worldwide revenue: $157 billion
General Motors 2012 worldwide revenue: $152 billion
Ford 2012 worldwide revenue: $134 billion

JJP 2013 worldwide revenue: Probably less than a $billion? I dunno; I'm just spitballing here. But do you think a comparison with automakers and their vast financial resources is the most appropriate? I'm sure if Jack was pulling in $100+ billion in sales a year, he could sell you a $90,000 pinball with just $500 down too!

Let me just clarify. I'm not saying JJP is doing anything wrong here. The whole LE situation is what I was referring to. It's clear by the demand for WOZ that the quality is there...people are pissed because they want one so bad...So i feel your pain. I once pre-ordered a Honda S2000 sports car back in the day...waited OVER 3 years since pre-order to delivery. So yeah it's painful.

It's a no win situation when delays happen, but they do. Nothing can make the wait easier than just finding something else to occupy your time. Easier said than done...but I'll tell you, and this is coming from my own personal experience, sometimes forums like this are the WORST place you can go each day...you get stuck in endless mind loops ranting and raving about it. Trust me, I spent 10 years on the Guns N' Roses forum bitching about the lack of Chinese Democracy...so much so that I eventually said FUCK IT and found a miraculous way to get one of my clients - Dr Pepper - to make Axl an offer that got the album out...

Right now there's now JJP communication any of you waiting want to hear than "You game is going out"...Jack's going to get you your game as soon as he can...He isn't in this business to hold onto your money, he's here to get you the best machine possible. I know you want more communication...I know you want to get the game when you were first promised, but we all know sometimes it's hard to meet deadlines. Especially when things happen you can't predict, which is what happens to all new businesses.

So in closing, I think all of us who have enough free capital to pre-order a game years in advance need to relax and realize this is how it works in pinball. Delays, changes and updates. I'm still shocked most Stern LE games ship in what can easily be considered BETA form...But that's how it is now...

Be good....Kaneda

Also, reading my original post again...I lumped in JJP with Stern when it came to innovation...that was dumb...I definitely think JJP has changed the game...which is good, because it will force Stern to innovate...just think we can get the innovation to the masses and the masses can't afford where LE prices are going...trickle down baby...

First to whomever edited this, thanks - if this is the nice version, I really wonder what the not so nice version was like. For the record if the original poster sees this, I was never attacking you directly and I'm sorry that you somehow took it as I was. I don't and still don't get why people really seem to be out there cheerleading anyone in the industry doing bad. I have friends who work at Stern, JJP, and some of the smaller groups, and I don't want *any* of them to fail.

I'll also point out before I make a few quick replies to the parts that weren't personal that I don't have any JJP games pre-ordered, nor probably will I. I *love* the JJP model where you don't need to pre-order, can wait and can see what the game is like and get a standard with the same features just less bling. To me, that's a great model. Anyway...

The flaw with this argument is that it sounds like your expectation is that the instant that the games were ordered, JJP should have printed and stored every large piece for them, but that simply doesn't happen. There are supply chain problems in manufacturing all the time, and there is no easy way to take care of them.

Sure, Stern took white knight money during the death of pinball and staved off the grim reaper. WTH does that have to do with JJP taking angel capital when their production is running wide open and the majority of it was cashflowed years in advance, [insult removed]?

Stern's production was running wide open when they were invested into, it's just no one was buying. They helped change the direction of the company so they could sell more games. JJP's production sounds like it can be increased with an increase of capital. This investment sounds like the goal is to change the direction of the company so they can make more games. I really don't see it as a huge difference.

Did you get your $2500 in for hobbit? Are you going to get another $1500 in in the next 30 days? You just keep sending in the checks and I'm sure your Nigerian Prince will deliver. For those of us who have eyes that see and ears that hear, we won't be buying your WOZ parts with our Hobbit money. If JJP is cashflowing, why do they need anything more than the initial $2500? Do you have a definite ship date with liquidated damages for missing it? I didn't think so. "It's called doubling down".
I wish them success, but their sales/funding structure almost guarantees failure. And like I said before, a deposit on a future order is nothing more than an unsecured loan to the unethical salesman who took your money prematurely. Don't be surprised when something goes wrong and a simple bankruptcy filing washes away your money while the slippery company keeps selling and producing into the future. Don't you understand the business process? Ask the Ozzies that paid in advance and aren't getting their machines. I say, "Too f^(king bad!" Do you pay a contractor 2 years in advance for building you a garage and then cry when he moves to Hawaii with your money?
Why is this obvious to only so few of us?

There are three flaws in your thinking here - the first is that what are your real "damages" for missing an *estimated* ship date for a product that is ultimately a toy, and which at any time you could call the company and ask for a refund from? I haven't heard of anyone who asked for a refund and was told "no."

Secondly, in what world could JJP take money for 1000 machines, declare bankruptcy thereby keeping the initial money and then keep producing machines. Who would buy them?

Finally, the Australian thing is super unfortunate, but it doesn't have anything to do with JJP. A distributor, who did not pay Jack, stole people's money.

What I'm really saying is taking in an equity partner is a bad, bad sign on the heels of JJP's funding model. The only thing that could possibly justify it would be a massive increase in their production levels. I didn't see any announcements of increased production space or automation to be bought with the capital in that press release.

Whose to say that this investment isn't so that JJP can change the investment model to something different?

Look, I'll said this before and I'll say this again - I don't understand why people are trying to say this is a bad bad sign. If Jack's business was as horrible as some people (who aren't directly involved with it) claim that it is as bad as it is, the equity firm isn't going to invest in it. Clearly, they believed in the model, and Jack believed that the cash infusion from them would help them in some way. Based on how a similar investment greatly helped Stern, I see no reason that anyone should be pulling out the pitchforks about this. Let's see where it goes, and I hope that every company out there makes some awesome games in the future.

For those of us that were around when Williams closed, that news was NOT cool, and it's just sad to see so many people that seem to be giddy about the idea of it happening again to a different company.

JJP's pinball machines don't need to be built tank like. They need to be fun, widely available, mass produced, and PRICE COMPETITIVE. Currently, his machines were setup like Corvette Z06/Viper Sports cars and priced that way - and Stern more like Mustang/Camaro quality at Corvette prices. JJP was serving a niche market of super elite LE buyers... he needs to get more price competitive. I hope this partnership does that. I really do.

GL from a fellow NJ paisan!

Has anyone seen HOP? JK

How is the cabinet different from the direct printed and cleared playfields then? I have not heard anybody say the playfields are flaking away. I remember early on before production when they were testing the clearcoats that they had problems and had to go to a more expensive clear. Those early playfields were sold as wall decorations because they were not good enough to meet JJP standards/requirements. The prototype cabinets likely had the old clear.

They found the founder/owner of that place in the trunk of his car with his throat slashed in 1974.

I never said the cabinet clear flakes away I said if u chip it or dent it the paint separates like flakes around the damaged area if u mess with it.(flakes can be pulled off)...I have no idea the clear used on the pf or the process it's applied but im guessing its a different wood also.. Lets not get this topic confused I'm only talking about the cabinet not the play field. I also said IF damaged it can chip or flake in that damage spot not that it just happens on its own... My point is if its a decal or direct print there both susceptible to damage and both have their negatives when it happens.
Thanks,
Lorenzo

I call this false. Stern's factory in the last 2-3 years has been packed elbow to elbow with materials and people. From what I understand, the 2008-2010 era was a skeleton crew with large portions of the factory almost unused. They were I suppose 'wide open' except that 'wide open' on a skeleton crew and low cost games in 08 wasn't the same as now. Stern took/received investment at one of the darkest times in pinball. The reason people see this move differently with JJP is that JJP is giving up equity and taking funding in the most successful pinball market in almost 20 years.

Despite most of the overanalysis in here, the simplest reasons to take on an investor are: either JJP is out of cash and needs more, or they have some new goals or opportunities cooking that need cash and they don't want to wait for it.

MY hope is that this funding and investment is to take JJP to the next level and get a real competitor out there for Stern - faster delivery, more titles, new innovations, etc. What may have taken 3-5 years of organic growing pains might now be possible next year. Whether this is true or not, no one yet knows.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.

By wide open, I simply mean that Stern was manufacturing games to meet 100% of the demand. Which at the time, there was very little demand. They didn't take on the money to ramp up production.

Right, but I think it's also worth pointing out that generally, investors do not invest in a company unless they see it as a growth opportunity that will give them a return on that investment. This isn't guaranteed, of course, but the simple simplification of that would simply be that some sort of expert looked at the JJP model and decided that it was solid and worth investing money into, and JJP agreed to accept the money because the belief is with it they can still grow at a rate to make it worthwhile.

If they had been in trouble, and for the record I'm not saying that they were, but generally investors don't float loans to companies that are about to go belly up.

Sorry man. I already called it. You got....

SCOOPED!

Hahaha.

Funny thing is that when I'm not flying somewhere for work, I drive by the parking lot they found him (Harvey Leach) and his car at every day since 1985.

The Joshua Doore store in Southgate, Michigan on I-75 & Eureka has been doing a good business as the Gibralter Trade Center (organized flea market) since the early '80's.

I have a ECLE that was built in late Oct - it arrived with a small chip out of one corner, and while I haven't gone picking at it like a scab, it hasn't shown any propensity to keep chipping or flaking off. I think the clear job on this game is fine.

Buying 'failing' companies happens all the time when there's real money to be made and the people or policies of a company are the roadblock. (not saying this is or is not JJP - just debating private equity here) The best deals I've seen in my days were intelligent hardworking investors buying a mismanaged or misdirected company with a great product or service who were struggling to properly make profit. Often having an idea or ambition doesn't mean one knows how to run a company and deal with people, deliveries, quality, customers, etc... That's were a lot of private equity shines imo - running a company regardless of the product or service offered.

Great example of the above. Stern was bordering on closing down because there was no demand - why invest in a company about to close the doors? Because its cheap (buy in the downtime, sell high at the peak), and the group coming in had new ideas about how the games should be built and sold (and probably were willing to gamble on a market remaining) - strip the expense out, create LE hype, and we're at 8k+ Stern machines with a BOM smaller than TSPP

Again all speculation. I know nothing about JJP's position, but in my experience private equity loves struggling companies with good ideas and intentions because they can often find the exact causes of the problem.

Flipping isn't growth - it's simple return on your dollar. They could also be thrown something like 'Give me a million and I'll turn it into 1.5 in 12m'. 50% return in 12m? They aren't going to get that in the stock market.

My point being... looking for a ROI? Of course.. that's the whole purpose? Extrapolate that to mean 'growth opportunity'? Not necessarily.

I have a question actually and maybe I missed the answer - why was this announced?

I mean, the ownership and finances of JJP have always been private, it's a private company, and really as far as the pinball world has been told, it seem to be 'business as usual' - so ultimately why does JJP want us to know this partnership exists at all?

Excellent point. Well put.

Well said

We are all saying the same thing on the motivation for ROI - just some are taking it to mean MORE than it necessarily is. Could be? Could not be.. but just showing up doesn't mean it's a lock.

It's not the size of the collection but the magic in it.