Album sales aside the point he made about concert ticket sales is a provable fact!

GNR is playing at our biggest stadium later this year at the MCG , it holds 100,000 , only the biggest bands play there Rolling Stones , Michael Jackson , U2 , Madonna .
The next biggest holds 50,000 and bands like ACDC , Robbie Williams play there .
Most bands play at the tennis centre which holds 15,000 , Alice Cooper , Elton John , Fleetwood Mac , the eagle's .
And then there's Festival Hall which holds 1,700 people and Rob Zombie and The Beatles have played there .
I don't know anything about record sales , I'm just pointing out who has played where .
Regardless , I'm happy JJP went with GNR , because of Slash no other band pinball would have turned out as good .

LOL to the tribalism on both sides.

Yep , it's like , everybody likes football but everyone has their own team .
Hate to be boring but I like games from both companies but this time jjp has a real winner .

My preference is to pay less for a higher quality pin. See the remakes, and American Pinball, and Bally/Williams, and Stern SAM pins.

P.s. JJP has made some cool pins, but I have yet to hear a convincing argument as to what makes them "higher quality". Other than bigger tv, and costs more, I can't think of any metric where they are #1.

You can argue about , better Shots , Fun games , Snappy flippers .
But JJP do put more effort into their cabinets , coding and hardware .
Jjp have full length tubular service rails , not little pegs to hold the play field up , they have quality wood in the base of the cabinets , not chipboard , Batman SLE didn't even have corner brackets , they have a headphone jack input , they don't try to save a few bucks on wiring and put the on off switch in the back box . AIQ LE has about 16 RGB' S , GNR has 350 RGB's .
When you open the back box on a new Stern you lay the LCD on the Playfield , with GNR it has a quality metal arm which swings out . They all have a second LCD screen .
Jjp have the best animations by far thanks to JP DeWin . Joe Katz spent 80 hours coding the lights for one song on GNR . Not to mention internet connectivity and Bluetooth and free ScoreBit for life .
I'm sure there's other stuff I'm missing .
I'm not saying Stern doesn't make fun games but jjp puts more into their games and you pay for it .

No doubt that JJP gives you more stuff for the money. The actual weight of their games is proof...well over 100lbs. heavier than a Stern!

I owned DILE for 3 years and just let it go. My son and I just decided we didn't really enjoy playing the game any more. We still play the hell out of TRONLE and are really enjoying R&M. Also interesting to note that it took awhile to sell DILE when compared with other Stern games I've sold recently.

Hoping the new GNR is great and I'll be able to pick one up down the road.

Di , you can play the game with your mobile phone , I owned a WOZ and it didn't do it for me , I ended up getting a hobbit and I just love that game . I understand not everyone loves jjp games but there's no denying they put more into them compared to Stern .

Dialed In is a great game!I think people have doubts about it they play just alittle while.Three years is a long time to play any game.If your talking Stern pro easier to sell then a JJP DI that’s not surprising at all.

Talking Stern Premiums mostly. I just think an awful lot of people aren't into original themes...especially a quirky original theme like DI. Didn't really bother me, but I think effected resale. Not a big deal, still sold my game for roughly what I paid.

Quick fact check; stern LCDs don’t lay on the playfield. It has metal chains that drop down like a trap door so to speak. It’s pretty nifty.

That said, having owned many sterns, a WOZ in the past, and now GNR. The biggest quality difference is the playfield wood; it’s just much more ‘meatier’ feeling than a stern. JJP does also pay much more attention to detail than stern by a long shot. However, where stern wins this ‘quality’ argument is that their games require less maintenance, and are less prone to breaking. That quality is unmatched from any other manufacturer IMO.

Never heard of him.

I think you are selling Stern a bit short. The newest Stern I have JP pro is put together pretty well aside from clearcoat issues. LCD folds down and not on glass. I honestly don't care about how nice rails are, where the power switch is, or how nice the bottom of the cab is. But yes, to your point JJP does have better features. You certainly pay for those extra features in both time and money. Thought JJP was working on getting titles out more frequently with lower price. If anything, the opposite is true.

Fun.

That’s great that it held its value.I

You’ve criticized other people for the same thing you just did.I have Dialed In and Wonka and I’ve owned a lot of classic Bally Williams titles.
The two JJP games easily get played more then the B/W’s.AC/DC Luci was fun for a year and then traded for nib Wonka.Never regretted that trade.The point is you can’t roll up and say JJP’s aren’t any fun because your dead wrong.I wouldn’t say any game I’ve never owned or played the shit out of on location wasn’t any fun,especially a whole manufactured line up!

Their system menu interface and options blow away ANY other pinball manufacturer except the defunct Pinball 2000. Stern, American, Spooky - NO ONE comes close to JJP's system menu interface and options. As an operator that should be obvious to you.

They're also very pro-operator. When we put PotC out with a $1.50/4 ball vend to make the move off $1 vends easier, I suggested JJP change their machine attract modes to show the number of balls next to the price to help us transition the customers easier. Guess what? They did. jjPotC stayed our #1 earner the whole time we had it despite the higher vend.

Contrast that with American that left a crash bug in the Houdini audits for more than 6 months, despite the fact that it made the audits unusable for operators and they were repeatedly asked to fix it. That's just one of many reasons American can't make inroads on location.

So yeah, JJP is a premium product, but not just in materials and toys.

Hmm.. what about the issues with the subway on Avengers , the diverter on Turtles , the Demi Gorgon and ESP lock on Stranger Things , the T-Rex on JP , the house in Elvira . Stern has as many issues as any other manufacturer . IMO

Don't forget about the warped playfields .

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Have you got your grinder and files out to fix your Icarus . That sounds like fun

A little different here. I don't troll people, nor do I say the same damn thing over and over. I'm being snarky here...funny how your sense of humor doesn't extend to your own game.

When I'm deciding to buy a game, the FIRST thing I think about is if it's any fun. It's a damn toy, after all. But you people with GnR will list everything that hypnotizes you about the game before you mention it being any fun and that post was a perfect example.

One piece of sandpaper. Five minutes. Done.

People sure get touchy around here when the shoe is on the other foot. At least now I know what I'm dealing with. You guys say a whole bunch of words. I said one and seemed to have touched a nerve. Keep being defensive when people make jokes...it's very telling in more ways than one.

That’s a cheap easy fix, the crappy washed out lcd screens JJP appears to have switched to, probably not so.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jjp-can-we-talk-about-replacement-lcds

Relax boob , I'm genuinely happy you got your issue sorted out .

You're the one who comes across as being touchy and has a nerve being hit .
You implied JJP games are not fun , I gave a come back , with a smiley face .
And now you're cut ?
I never said anything nasty about Stern or Led Zep .
I've been cheeky but polite .
If you take things personally and get upset well .. what can I say .

Total respect jaybird , you know how to give a response .
By the way the screen on the demo I played , looked fantastic and the colours and animations looked unreal .

If I'm touchy, it's because every single game I get is trashed on this site by people who supposedly love pinball. The latest example was STh, which is now beginning to be regarded as a really great game. It always takes a year for that to happen (same with GOT and SW). It's tiring watching the same mistakes being made over and over and being made to feel like an ass for buying something that you're excited about...especially when games are being judged on art, toys, and blinky lights alone. JJP will ALWAYS win that battle.

My first game was WOZ...and it's never leaving. I think JJP makes the highest-quality, most beautiful games out there...and they pack it with stuff. But after that is where we differ. So many people slobber over BOM on this site, and I just look at how many times I feel like hitting the start button. Nothing JJP has made since WOZ has interested me (and man, did I want to like all of them because they're so nice to look at!). I just don't get that "one more game" feel.

The difference is that I don't go on this site calling it a piece of shit or being disrespectful to others who are excited about it. There are a handful of GnR people who constantly troll the LZ threads. You don't see me on the GnR threads much because I'm not interested, so I don't care.

What's the point of being negative...especially with all the crap going on now?

I hear you mate . I own fishtails and The Hobbit , I know all about it .
I don't care what anyone else says , at the end of the day it's me playing the game in my house . From my point of view I was having friendly banter , not trying to pick a fight with you .
Cheers Rich

Sorry man, but that's a big YOU problem. Everyone's opinions are different and if other people not validating your expensive purchase is an issue for you, you got 2 options...get off the internet, or grow some skin and quit putting so much weight on what others think.

This thread has established that JJP games weigh more

Haha, nothing but respect for you as well, I’m just having fun. I personally think the whole Stern vs JJP thing is absolutely stupid.

Um...no, it's really not. I've never regretted a purchase yet, regardless of what people say. And I don't block anybody because I WANT to hear everybody's opinions. But it's all in how it's done...and that's more of a YOU problem. But maybe you're right about getting off the internet. Worked great for me before, so thanks for the suggestion.

There's a very thin line between childish and childlike, and this forum shows it in spades.

It's not just here, it is everywhere. You have to learn to tune most of it out and just let it roll off.

Be it politics, cars, sports why must we always be pitted against a side. In politics I understand the necessity for taking sides as a decision in politics can directly affect your life. In pinball, it's all fun. Think JJP is overpriced? don't buy it. Think Stern is the better value? buy it. Why is there a need to prove your decision is correct?. These are toys. I love them all. Will I buy them all? no. But I still love playing them.

Competition is a good argument. Some people buy rare pinball machines (Magic Girl) to show that you have the means to purchase a game and can show it off. NOT because it plays great. We are competitive in nature. Humans are born screaming for attention. Enjoy your Stern, Spooky, JJP, CGC they are all a blast.

We all seek different things in pinball machines, some like flow, some like stop and go, for some people artwork is very important, some code. It's great that there is something for everyone. Arguably, people take sides out of disappointment, Led Zeppelin pro has nothing in it, GNR has too many multiballs.. not everything is for everyone.

Sorry, I'll go back to my cave.

Sites like Pinside thrive on opinions. Without various opinions, it wouldn't exist. 95% of the posts are opinions.

The tone you use and where you post them is up to the poster. That's a difference.

I still love you Boob, even with your poor taste in pins.

The world is a better place with JJP and Stern....as well as every other pin company....I hope we see more. I love the option of going back and forth on my GNR and Zeppelin pins right next to each other. Apples and Oranges. Love them both. Interesting fact.....the only pin I have NEVER had to take the glass off of yet to fix anything was my MBr SE..... but I'm sure that day will come too.

Great points screaminr !! And Very fair to mention that. I have no real rebuttal lol. I just know it took me extensive amount of time dialing in GNR; we’re talking weeks. But, I did spend even more time on getting DP dialed in. And spent a good fair amount of time on the T-Rex in JP.

Now that jjp se’s cost 1k more: what has better value stern premium or jjp se?

Neither.

The cost of this hobby has far exceeded my disposable income capacity. When stuff started hitting 8-9k it pushed me out... heck even dropping 5-8k on a used machine is a considerable amount of money for me personally, and isn't something I can just do on a whim. I've moved on from having to own them to helping others with restoration and modification. I still get the enjoyment of the hobby but don't have to beg-borrow-and-steal to own them. If I were just getting into this hobby now... man that would be discouraging. Still love the hobby... just not even looking at what's coming anymore, I don't care who makes it.

is this a trick question?

No doubt....hopefully u kept your IJ

No way that is going anywhere (famous last words of everyone!) ... not any time soon.

It's not just bigger TV, and costs more. Also, do JJP pins really cost more when Stern is charging $7500, $9500, and in some cases $15k for comparable pins? Not really. Well except for GNR, what JJP did with GNR is pricing is disappointing.

If JJP continues with GNR pricing for all future titles please ignore everything I said below lol. Same thing if they raise Wonka prices to GNR levels.

To start the JJP quality difference can be seen in the build quality of the cabinet alone. The cabinets themselves are made better, the seams on them are cut better, the interior / underside is finished nicer, and heck the head is actually made out of wood versus 2/3 sheet metal. JJP is also still including traditional locks mechs for cabinet heads, a proper lockdown bar, and full support rails.

We can then move onto the features / toys, there are more of them on a JJP pin versus a vast majority of Sterns. On a JJP pin you will find multiple 3D molds that are detailed. Take the skull Axel mold on GNR, the spinning Gobster on Wonka, and especially Smaug on JJP (plus the gold piles and pillars). You will find nothing close to that on a Stern pin, not at the same level of detail or build quality. Example, LZ has a Zeppelin toy that is made of two half pieces of plastic that are held together by two exposed screw heads. The raptor tower on JP are thin plastics screwed onto a chunk of metal (again with exposed screw heads). This is inferior to say the 3D molded toys on Dialed In. Black Knight SOR again uses thin flat plastics on the catapult toy that are screwed into a chunk of metal. Some people may say you can buy after market mods to "fix" those areas but you shouldn't have to with a $6k - $9k+ pinball purchase of all things.

Finally there's the code work and JJP puts far more into their code work compared to Stern. A lot of Stern games are filled with "shoot this ramp" or "shoot this orbit" for X score with little mode choreography (unique music, sounds, animations, etc all tied to shots that work the entire playfield). All of those "super modes" that Stern loves to fill their pins with are copy and paste filler modes carried over from one game to the next. The Stern game that went against that mold the most was LOTR and we know where the programmer, Keith Johnson, ended up...JJP.

Stay strong Boob, don’t let the Jersey Jack Off’s get to you, they seem to have the Napoleon complex for some reason.

That's too bad... but have you ever considered getting some classic solid states and EMs?

Yeah... I have. There are a few that I like and would like to restore one day. The reality is the cost of everything has gone through the roof in the past decade, this isn't unique to pinball. However the market/demand/craze has been so strong in this hobby its pushed up the cost of everything... even junk. I'm good where I've settled in. I don't get wound up over having to get the latest release ... or get into debates about which game or manufacturer is better than the other.... all of that stuff is irrelevant. Like what you like... spend whatever you can afford spend... the market will respond, and it clearly has.

I think this was a decent argument when the jjp titles were 1k cheaper. Imo I’ll take the premium over an SE all day.

Good point. When it comes to GNR I'm with ya. I would gladly take an AIQ Premium any day over GNR SE. What JJP did with GNR pricing is disappointing.

Agree with you 100% as relatively new to hobby and some of the exchanges you see are very childish. There is criticism and constructive criticism. The stern sucks and JJP sucks makes me feel like I am in high school again. To be honest I ran into some pretty great hobbyists on pinside that have been very helpful. The helpfulness of these pinsiders far out weighs the nonsense comments.

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Tubular rails? Who cares if they're tubes? Support rails don't fail. Stern did cheap out for a while using pegs on the pros, but those were <$5k pins. Better animations? Sounds like a video game console debate. More twinkly lights? These aren't christmas trees, although I'm starting to see a strong resemblance. Better menu interface? I've been perfectly satisfied with operator adjustments going all the way back to early solid state. The simpler the better. Bluetooth on a pin? Ugh.

If all that fluff makes you guys feel warm and fuzzy about paying $10k+ great. I'm against it. If Sterns get overstuffed with fluff I'll stop buying them, too.

I have attached some pics of a newer Stern cabinet. Doesn't look cheap to me. More stout than my Williams cabinets, which no one ever bags on. That reminds me. I've got a separating corner on my Creech I need to fix.

20210216_193834 (resized).jpg

The point is Stern cabinet wood may LOOK fine, but it's WAY less dense than JJP cabs these days. Stern cheaped out on the cabinet wood starting around the release of KISS, or maybe just after. You can FEEL how much softer and crappier the wood is on Sterns when you put a screw in the cabinet. It's no coincidence that Stern also started having cabinets splitting around this time and had to put heavier corner braces back in because the new crappier wood was failing at the corners.

Your challenge was "Other than bigger tv, and costs more, I can't think of any metric where they [JJP] are #1." They are by FAR #1 in system menu design (amongst other areas) but your challenges wasn't qualified with "that I approve of." JJP menu interface is WORLDS beyond Stern Spike (or any other current pin's) menus. Asked and answered.