(Topic ID: 349902)

JJP Fully Populated Enhanced I/O Board

By grambo1980

10 months ago


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Post #4 Changes to boards per original schematics. Posted by mdeslaur (10 months ago)

Post #325 Testing results from TheLaw Posted by TheLaw (9 months ago)

Post #335 More testing results. Posted by cfh (9 months ago)


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There are 802 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 17.
#1 10 months ago

Just trying to find some technical details on exactly what this does and why a new board is needed for it. I know it "improves flipper performance" but there is no details on exactly what that means and how/why this board does that. I don't suppose anyone could add some specifics here?

Thanks!

https://www.pinballlife.com/jjp-fully-populated-enhanced-io-board.html
Enhanced driver board suitable for all Jersey Jack Pinball machines, with the exception of Wizard of Oz.
This I/O board is the latest revision, meaning it will improve the flipper performance in older machines.
Reference numbers:
Hobbit - 15-4001-01
Dialed In - 15-004001-03
Pirates of the Caribbean - 15-004001-01
Willy Wonka - 15-004001-01
Guns 'N Roses - 15-004001-01
Toy Story 4 - 15-004001-07
The Godfather - 15-004001-08
Elton John - 15-004001-09
Jersey Jack Pinball #15-004001-FP.

#2 10 months ago

THis would be awesome if it would make GNR flippers like GF and EJ

#3 10 months ago
Quoted from HarryReimer:

THis would be awesome if it would make GNR flippers like GF and EJ

that's the claim. Just trying to understand exactly how.

14
#4 10 months ago

So, I was curious about this too, so I lookup up all the schematics in the manuals, and here's my breakdown of the changes that went into the different revisions of the JJP I/O boards, let me know if I left something out.

Note that each revision has different transistors populated depending on what is being actually used in the game as a cost saving measure.

15-4001-00 - Original Wizard of Oz I/O Board
15-004001-01 - fuses changed values, U800,U801,J800,J802,J804 not populated (was only used on pre-2.0 WOZ lights)
15-004001-03 - only changes seem to be what transistors are populated
15-004001-07 - power supply components were modified (big capacitors changed values, resistors on leds changed, fuses changed values)
15-004001-08 - no changes except which transistors are populated
15-004001-09 - no changes except which transistors are populated

So unless something isn't documented, the only big change that is related to the flippers was when they introduced -07 in Toy Story 4 and increased the capacitors on the 70v from 3300uf to 6800uf...I don't see anything else that is related. Although the code in the PIC18F4550 at U200 could have changed too, but I'm not sure.

As a side note, I wonder why they claim this board isn't compatible with WOZ, is it just not compatible with WOZ pre-2.0 light boards because of the missing components?

#5 10 months ago

It does say it will improve the flipper performance in older machines, so who's going to try it first? Would be good to get someone, who could actually produce some real test data.

#6 10 months ago

Following! Love my GnR and this would only make it better!

#7 10 months ago

Watching this like a hawk - I see discussions in the different owner threads hoping they all funnel here so everyone can compare notes.

#8 10 months ago

Same - curious if this really works b/c I'll put it on my Wonka and Pirates...

#9 10 months ago

Is this I/O board that JJP sells on their website the updated board, or an older one?

http://store.jerseyjackpinball.com/Parts/The-Hobbit-Parts/I-O-Bd-HOB-Fully-Populated.html

The SKU is 15-004001-01, which makes me think it's the older one?

#10 10 months ago
Quoted from legionsoup:

Is this I/O board that JJP sells on their website the updated board, or an older one?
http://store.jerseyjackpinball.com/Parts/The-Hobbit-Parts/I-O-Bd-HOB-Fully-Populated.html
The SKU is 15-004001-01, which makes me think it's the older one?

If that's the SKU, then it's an older one...but you would have to ask them, they may not be updating their website with what they are actually selling...

#11 10 months ago

pinball_keefer - Long shot but any details to share about this board and usage in older JJP's?

#12 10 months ago
Quoted from mdeslaur:

So unless something isn't documented, the only big change that is related to the flippers was when they introduced -07 in Toy Story 4 and increased the capacitors on the 70v from 3300uf to 6800uf...I don't see anything else that is related. Although the code in the PIC18F4550 at U200 could have changed too, but I'm not sure.

It's obvious if you know electricity, which seems we both know enough. I will conclude the same. That board doesn't have any component that can magically make the magnetic power of the same coil any stronger OTHER than what you said. Capacitor can hold more electrons and give those to any coil that the power line simply cannot give to the coil on its own. Take note the documentation on Elton John uses a newer coil that is 22 gauge and the others are 23 gauge also. That would be my conclusion why Elton is better: people at the shows said it was faster and their documentation on coils would explain it.

#13 10 months ago
Quoted from dpadam450:

It's obvious if you know electricity, which seems we both know enough. I will conclude the same. That board doesn't have any component that can magically make the magnetic power of the same coil any stronger OTHER than what you said. Capacitor can hold more electrons and give those to any coil that the power line simply cannot give to the coil on its own. Take note the documentation on Elton John uses a newer coil that is 22 gauge and the others are 23 gauge also. That would be my conclusion why Elton is better: people at the shows said it was faster and their documentation on coils would explain it.

?

the manual says it uses a 11629

pretty sure they typically use 11629 on most of their games, it's a very common coil

I saw JJP make a comment that the new board is better at heat dissipation. That could make sense for why flipper fade is less of an issue.

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

edit: they use a mix of 11629 and the weaker 15411 it seems. I'm a bit surprised if that is really all they did to make them shoot better... they could have done that forever ago

#14 10 months ago

I'd have to re-confirm what my eyes saw last month comparing Elton to (one of) their older games. I swear it was a better coil. Also two local techs that run two separate pinball arcades confirmed they merely put the better coils in and things are better. 2 hearsay confirmations on my end that coils seem to be the thing.

Unless their mosfets were 20 degrees higher after 10 flips, I don't see any reason to believe heat was the issue. We are talking about walking up to a cold game and the flippers being weak right? Not flipper fade?

Be keen here: "May help". The observation (laws) of electricity don't sometimes make electromagnets better. I don't sometimes flip a NIB stern and the flippers feel like JJP.

#15 10 months ago

Man I wish the swap of coils was documented and feedback about performance. With all the smart people out there in this hobby I’m surprised no one has come up with a real solution beyond adding fans.

Quoted from dpadam450:

I'd have to re-confirm what my eyes saw last month comparing Elton to (one of) their older games. I swear it was a better coil. Also two local techs that run two separate pinball arcades confirmed they merely put the better coils in and things are better. 2 hearsay confirmations on my end that coils seem to be the thing.
Unless their mosfets were 20 degrees higher after 10 flips, I don't see any reason to believe heat was the issue. We are talking about walking up to a cold game and the flippers being weak right? Not flipper fade?
Be keen here: "May help". The observation (laws) of electricity don't sometimes make electromagnets better. I don't sometimes flip a NIB stern and the flippers feel like JJP.

#16 10 months ago

Here are the coil listing per the manual for a few games (left flipper, followed by right flipper):

FL-15411 - Used for long playfield shots
FL-11629 - Used for long shots and high ramps

Woz - FL-11629 and FL-11629
Dialed In - FL-15411 and FL-15411
Willy Wonka - FL-15411 and FL-15411
Godfather - FL-11629 and FL-15411
Toy Story 4 - FL-11629 and FL-15411
Elton John - FL-11629 and FL-11629

#17 9 months ago

Hobbit - FL-115411 and FL-115411

#18 9 months ago

As for the thermal improvements to the new -07 IO board introduced with TS4, the new board has higher value resistors on all the leds and they have changed to surface-mount parts that are spaced further apart than the through-hole 2W resistors that were used previously.

driver (resized).jpgdriver (resized).jpg
#19 9 months ago

It's sold out now, so somebody must be taking the plunge...

IO (resized).JPGIO (resized).JPG
#20 9 months ago

Every JJP owner would want this… IF it works.

Hoping to hear some reviews from those who took the plunge!

Quoted from Betelgeuse:

It's sold out now, so somebody must be taking the plunge...
[quoted image]

#21 9 months ago

A larger cap can increase coil power on an unregulated supply by holding up the voltage between the waves. Gottlieb did this in the system 3 era with their "filter board" to make VUK and similar coils kick harder.
pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

#22 9 months ago
Quoted from Betelgeuse:

It's sold out now, so somebody must be taking the plunge...
[quoted image]

I bought one. I plan to put it in my GnR, but I may test it on Wonka and/or Pirates as well (Wonka and Pirates flipper feel never bothered me, but GnR does).

#23 9 months ago
Quoted from legionsoup:

I bought one. I plan to put it in my GnR, but I may test it on Wonka and/or Pirates as well (Wonka and Pirates flipper feel never bothered me, but GnR does).

Certainly let us know. I think it’s BS that JJP says it might work for 400 but it’s like everyone over there just wants to be fired with all the bad moves they’ve been making, including marketing. Another bone head move.

Yeah let’s not be clear about what this thing can actually do but just say it might work….. with a price of 400. JJP - wake up

#24 9 months ago

If the only thing that is different is the filter caps that is like $10 in parts. The resistors are likely safety resistors to bleed off the high voltage when power is turned off. I am guessing the smaller two caps are for the upper flippers?

Someone who is good at rework can try to replace one with bigger cap and see if it makes it flip stronger.

#25 9 months ago
Quoted from delt31:

Certainly let us know. I think it’s BS that JJP says it might work for 400 but it’s like everyone over there just wants to be fired with all the bad moves they’ve been making, including marketing. Another bone head move.
Yeah let’s not be clear about what this thing can actually do but just say it might work….. with a price of 400. JJP - wake up

I think it's just Pinball Life's description, I'm not sure JJP is claiming that.

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#26 9 months ago
Quoted from mdeslaur:

I think it's just Pinball Life's description, I'm not sure JJP is claiming that.

Terrys no fool I doubt he would make such a bold statement without backup

#27 9 months ago

I don’t know….I just get a shitty feeling about this. I know that in my business I would never get away with “well I did a mediocre job the first time so hey pay me again for a better job”! How about offer a minimal fee to those who feel they have an issue to rectify the problem. Isn’t this more stand up?

But then again, look what they did to Lloyd!!

#28 9 months ago
Quoted from mdeslaur:

I think it's just Pinball Life's description, I'm not sure JJP is claiming that.

Kaneda interviewed Jack (on YT I think). He said the flippers in Elton are better because of "hardware and software". When pressed he just changed the subject. So I think it is also JJP's claim.

Either way, $12k+ and to make it truly feel like a pinball machine, you have to spend an additional $400. Their website says 'premium, no compromise'. Except the compromise on flipper power. Like buying a car that goes 55MPH but if you want to drive above 65MPH on the highway you gotta pay the upgrade.

I beg someone, please just strip a couple wires. Solder them to the other capacitors and then to these. https://www.jameco.com/z/LLQ1K472MHSC-Nichicon-4700uF-Aluminum-Electrolytic-Capacitor-Polarized-80VDC-20-_2348879.html
They don't need to snap into the board. Just place them in the backbox anywhere and create a wire lead to the original board. With shipping this will cost you about $10. I don't own a JJP otherwise I'd do it. The thermal thing has absolutely no bearing. That would mean some random resistor or something heated up the air around the board so hot that it made the Rds(On) of the mosfets so high that they resisted a massive amount of electrical flow. If you look at the spec sheet of the mosfets on your games, check the RDSon graph. Usually like 200F you still aren't that high of resistance. And thats a smoking hot mosfet.

17
#29 9 months ago
Quoted from dpadam450:

When pressed he just changed the subject.

At least he didn't blame the customers.

LTG : )

#30 9 months ago
Quoted from dpadam450:

Kaneda interviewed Jack (on YT I think). He said the flippers in Elton are better because of "hardware and software". When pressed he just changed the subject. So I think it is also JJP's claim.
Either way, $12k+ and to make it truly feel like a pinball machine, you have to spend an additional $400. Their website says 'premium, no compromise'. Except the compromise on flipper power. Like buying a car that goes 55MPH but if you want to drive above 65MPH on the highway you gotta pay the upgrade.
I beg someone, please just strip a couple wires. Solder them to the other capacitors and then to these. They don't need to snap into the board. Just place them in the backbox anywhere and create a wire lead to the original board. With shipping this will cost you about $10. I don't own a JJP otherwise I'd do it for you.
https://www.jameco.com/z/LLQ1K472MHSC-Nichicon-4700uF-Aluminum-Electrolytic-Capacitor-Polarized-80VDC-20-_2348879.html

In fairness I don’t think JJP purposely built their system the way they did and is now trying to stick it to us owners.Maybe you can get a low price GnR and spend the $10 to give this fix a go?

#31 9 months ago

Can anyone explain the technical or design differences that make stern flippers feel so different from jjp flippers.

#32 9 months ago
Quoted from romulusx:

In fairness I don’t think JJP purposely built their system the way they did and is now trying to stick it to us owners.Maybe you can get a low price GnR and spend the $10 to give this fix a go?

I really don't know if they like underpowered flippers and it was by design and maybe just now realizing the consumer pushback? Sticking to you or not, $400 ask for extra flipper power without just telling you "we did this which gives more amperage" or something. Just be honest.

#33 9 months ago
Quoted from 1963BSARGS:

Can anyone explain the technical or design differences that make stern flippers feel so different from jjp flippers.

According to people who have played their last three JJP titles they are just as good as Stern or better especially Elton John.

#34 9 months ago

Just be honest.

I do agree with this for sure they certainly could be more vocal about known issues

#35 9 months ago
Quoted from romulusx:

According to people who have played their last three JJP titles they are just as good as Stern or better especially Elton John.

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. I think the previous 2 were "better" than previous JJP flippers. The EJ seem to be 100% liked.

#36 9 months ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration. I think the previous 2 were "better" than previous JJP flippers. The EJ seem to be 100% liked.

I guess I should have said previous two pins were better.Stern flippers will feel better to some no matter what.Personally they feel and sound cheap to me

#37 9 months ago

I think my WOZ flippers feel exactly the same as the Williams flippers on my Road Show which is right beside it.

I doubt having bigger capacitors on the 70v line is going to make the flippers feel different, but they may not lose a bit of power if a bunch of coils are firing at the exact same time.

#38 9 months ago
Quoted from Betelgeuse:

It's sold out now, so somebody must be taking the plunge...
[quoted image]

Well hopefully we get an update whether or not it’s worth $400. So far I don’t see anybody celebrating & dancing that this thing is amazing

IMG_1664.gifIMG_1664.gif
#39 9 months ago
Quoted from LTG:

At least he didn't blame the customers.
LTG : )

Not yet

0EFF7818-F591-4E72-884F-28DF19496FE9remote103ed6b94f7f5e02c51d1424d9188e202fa6f9cd-1-original.jpeg0EFF7818-F591-4E72-884F-28DF19496FE9remote103ed6b94f7f5e02c51d1424d9188e202fa6f9cd-1-original.jpeg
#40 9 months ago

Folllowing…

#41 9 months ago
Quoted from 1963BSARGS:

Can anyone explain the technical or design differences that make stern flippers feel so different from jjp flippers.

There's a longstanding debate about which is better between Williams and DE/Sega/Stern flippers. It's a Coke vs Pepsi debate. Jersey Jack uses Williams flippers.

From a technical point of view, IIRC, Williams flippers have a dual coil, one big coil for the initial flip and a small coil to keep the flipper in the up position, while DE/Sega/Stern flippers use a single coil that uses full power for the initial flip and a PWM on the same coil to keep it up. The mechanics are slightly different too.

Jersey Jack flippers will never feel like Stern flippers, and vice versa, so that's not a fair comparison. If you're expecting a JJP machine to have snappy flippers like a Stern machine, that's not going to happen.

Now, the question is, do JJP flippers feel like a Williams machine, or were improvements necessary to get them to feel like a Williams machine?

So far, there are bigger capacitors on recent io boards and Elton John uses the most powerful coil in common use, while some earlier machines use slightly less powerful coils depending on how far the targets are to hit. Other improvements may have been done in software to change the length of the initial pulse. The length of the initial pulse can probably be changed in the game settings, but perhaps some other adjustments were made also. There is also the code running in the U200 ic on the i/o board, but I don't know if it does anything special, but it could.

#42 9 months ago
Quoted from mdeslaur:

There's a longstanding debate about which is better between Williams and DE/Sega/Stern flippers. It's a Coke vs Pepsi debate. Jersey Jack uses Williams flippers.
From a technical point of view, IIRC, Williams flippers have a dual coil, one big coil for the initial flip and a small coil to keep the flipper in the up position, while DE/Sega/Stern flippers use a single coil that uses full power for the initial flip and a PWM on the same coil to keep it up. The mechanics are slightly different too.
Jersey Jack flippers will never feel like Stern flippers, and vice versa, so that's not a fair comparison. If you're expecting a JJP machine to have snappy flippers like a Stern machine, that's not going to happen.
Now, the question is, do JJP flippers feel like a Williams machine, or were improvements necessary to get them to feel like a Williams machine?
So far, there are bigger capacitors on recent io boards and Elton John uses the most powerful coil in common use, while some earlier machines use slightly less powerful coils depending on how far the targets are to hit. Other improvements may have been done in software to change the length of the initial pulse. The length of the initial pulse can probably be changed in the game settings, but perhaps some other adjustments were made also. There is also the code running in the U200 ic on the i/o board, but I don't know if it does anything special, but it could.

In addition to the single wound vs dual, I think Stern uses the EOS a bit different. Traditionally the EOS would make the switch from power to hold physically. When it went to digital control, the EOS primary purpose on WPC was relegated to detecting if the flipper bat got knocked down when it should be up (then it repulses the power stroke to get it back up)

Based on a description in Stern manuals, they also do that but in addition, they don’t switch from a power to hold PWM until after the EOS has been closed for a few milliseconds. This likely gives a more powerful feel towards shots late on the flipper. It may also make micro flips stronger as there is a minimum power pulse time

image0 (resized).jpegimage0 (resized).jpeg

#43 9 months ago
Quoted from mdeslaur:

I think my WOZ flippers feel exactly the same as the Williams flippers on my Road Show which is right beside it.
I doubt having bigger capacitors on the 70v line is going to make the flippers feel different, but they may not lose a bit of power if a bunch of coils are firing at the exact same time.

It absolutely will on an unregulated unfiltered supply. It takes the ripple out of the unregulated supply holding the voltage up. When the voltage wave is near zero it can use from what is stored in capacitor giving a stronger flip.

Gottlieb did the same thing. If you bypass the filter board on a game like world challenge soccer the kick outs will be weak.

20
#44 9 months ago

I have a full rework station and am willing to test on my existing board. If someone who has purchased the new board can give me the specs on the caps and resistors and anything else that is changed I’m willing to be the sacrificial lamb.

#45 9 months ago

Looks like its back in stock at PBL

#46 9 months ago

I’m more interested with modifying the original board.Any conclusions on this?

15
#47 9 months ago

The board arrived today, and I installed it into my GnR. I want to preface this by saying, this is as non-scientific as you're going to get.

For the first 30 or so seconds, I couldn't tell the difference. Felt like the same old game. But as I played, the ball was most definitely getting up ramps faster. I even made some combos that I've never gotten before, and discovered some ball paths due to the extra power on the ball. I am pretty pleased with it and excited to try it some more, and in my estimation, this actually works.

I haven't played Eltron John, but MAYBE it feels the same as Godfather now? I've only played Godfather twice on location.

#48 9 months ago

If anybody tries this on Dialed In kindly report here, thanks!

#49 9 months ago
Quoted from legionsoup:

The board arrived today, and I installed it into my GnR. I want to preface this by saying, this is as non-scientific as you're going to get.
For the first 30 or so seconds, I couldn't tell the difference. Felt like the same old game. But as I played, the ball was most definitely getting up ramps faster. I even made some combos that I've never gotten before, and discovered some ball paths due to the extra power on the ball. I am pretty pleased with it and excited to try it some more, and in my estimation, this actually works.
I haven't played Eltron John, but MAYBE it feels the same as Godfather now? I've only played Godfather twice on location.

Are you running factory bats/bushings? B/C I experienced the same results going with the complete Precision flipper system.

#50 9 months ago
Quoted from Enchantress:

Are you running factory bats/bushings? B/C I experienced the same results going with the complete Precision flipper system.

I am running factory everything outside of the new board.

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