if you think jaws would look anything as awesome as those pics, you really have expectations for these companies. Only way it's going to look anything that good, is if you do it yourself.

I would have threw , Hobbit, WOZ, NBAFB and Avatar into that list as well.

lol. I wouldn't be to sure about that. Many people by me that had WOZ sold it and agree it's not a good playing game. Hobbit seems to be universally hated as well, even more so than WOZ.

I love stop and go. TZ is almost a perfect pinball machine in my eyes. WOZ has very limited shot structure. You are very confined to a small area. Rest is covered by mini playfields. the rescue playfield has some redeeming qualities to it, but overall the game feels like work and not enjoyable during the ride. Plus it sucks at telling you what to do, and the playfield seriously lacks text and guidance. It was very refreshing to see DI and POTC having text on inserts and getting away from making inserts Generic so they can program them for whatever the hell they wanted later. JJP is learning it's lessons from past mistakes.

most of the shit in my collection, you have never seen or played. But I deal in unique/rare euro stuff. But I wouldnt' trade any game in my collection for WOZ or Hobbit. Think either of those are better than AC/DC? Indy500? Shadow? LOTR? GB? Not a chance.

But I can see by your collection you only buy what's popular and don't make decisions for yourself, so you really don't know what's good and what isn't anyway. Keep only buying popular NIB titles, heaven forbid you explore out and experience something different than what the lemmings rate high on the top boards.

you buy what's new and popular. Typical boring ass cookie cutter collection. No variety. No imagination or thought put into it. I've seen it a million times. New to the hobby. throws money around like it's nothing. buys the same shit. Buys all new stuff, because they don't want to learn to fix anything. Fly by night collector. Yawn...........zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I guarantee you havn't played or even seen, at least 30% if not 50% of the games I have. The only ones you have bothered to even take a look at, are the popular DMD titles. If it's not a JJP, DMD stern, or popular B/W title, you wouldn't give it a second look.

yup, that pretty much sums it up. Maybe I stated it only in wisconsineze, and that's why only you understood.

it's not about money, and anyone that owns a machine should start learning about the technical aspects of it if you plan to be a collector long term. Because eventually you will need to know. but if you would have read several pages back, you would understand the reason i'm commenting and referring to things a certain way.

TRAMD does have a lot of diversity. Thou, I don't agree with some of his choices, I do respect and give kudos to his collection, because of his range of manufacturers and generations. Little bit of everything in there. Diversity is good.

agreed. CV is one of my favorite games. I have had people bag on it pretty harshly, and I understand why some don't like it. Just like with WOZ. I hate it for several reasons, but I also understand the ones that like it and why they like it.

Now SF2. I can't understand how anyone can like that game.

WOZ was not sold as a loss. The only reason it tecnically could be considered a loss, is because he was trying to get the entire company and startup paid for from WOZ alone in the first year, instead of first 5 years like normal businesses expect to have an entire company paid for. If you don't think JJP isn't starting to make a profit past the 3500 mark, you do not know pinball manufacturing very well. The ONLY reason prices are like they are, is because Jack started off with a super high price. People bought into it. Stern saw this, and jacked up their prices as well. People kept buying. Jack pushes forward. People keep buying. Stern pushes forward. People keep buying. Jack bumps it up again.....guess what. People keep buying. what does stern do? Well, if jack can make 200-300% profit. Why shouldn't we? Stern increases prices.......people keep buying. 4th release. what happens? Jack increases prices yet again......people keep buying. If you think the cost of these games has gone up over the course of these 4 games, you are gravely mistaken. B/W went almost 10 years with only a $400 price increase over those 10 years. cost of materials, building and what not does not increase as fast as you guys seem to pretend to think. Only reason you guys try to act like manufacturing has increased so dramatically over the past 4 years, is because you are trying to justify the constant price increases. Which people can't.

they were going up a bit, but nothing to the extreme like it was when WOZ introduction price point was announced.

only because he's buying parts for the long haul. Flipper mechs, lamp boards, crap like that, that can be used on every game is bought in bulk. Not just for this run, but for many runs in the future. Has to pay for the jigs for assembly, assembly line material, and all the startup things he needs. He's counting all this shit and balling it up in WOZ total profit. Which it should be split up over 3 or 4 games. Plus he had to pay for a lot of screwups that happened through the learning process. Which he's not chalking up to loss, he counts it as cutting into WOZ's development cost. If you break it down, with all the releases and versions, his costs get less and less as you spread it out to more games. This is why I think Jack would benefit to put greed aside, and instead of prices continuing to go up. Drop back down to the 6500-7500 range and sell more games. Guarantee he would sell at least 1000-2000 more games by doing that. And more than enough make up the money from not cash grabbing from fewer sales.

stern bought it, and POTC was $3800 NIB
Stern bought tron license from disney. It was $5400 NIB. and pros were $4200.

So you are really buying this shit that JJP's manufacturing costs go up by $500 every single release? Really. So Jacks manufacturing costs go up per game as fast as it took bally/williams to increase prices over 8 years.

if both were not on a race to see who can charge the most without losing enough customers to make it worthwhile, we would be getting 1 full version from stern for around $4700 by this point. Sure jack has more stuff on his playfield, but to cost twice as much? When you can make 2 completely separate games in full and sell them for half of someone else. You have to be able to realize the bottom line to make this game is considerably less than what you think. Which is fine, make 300% profit while you can. Because every level they shoot up, knocks another group of potential buyers out. Yes they are making more profit with less games, but eventually you are not going to sell enough games to make it worth while and either have to lower prices and sell more games again, or close shop.

And you have to admit. Sterns POTC has a badass toy in it. I'm not that big of a fan of POTC because of the rules, but that is one of the better toys out there. Up there with the Trex in JP and MM's castle.

because back when JJP started, Stern did not realize games would sell if they tacked on another 2k to the NIB price. Once this was realized, both companies seem to be on a race to see who can charge the most without losing all the customers.

i've done purchasing for companies for years, and did them for companies that made parts for bally/williams in both metal fabrication and printing. I know a lot about what it costs to make what in the pinball world. Stuff it not as expensive to make when you are buying in bulk from a manufacturing perspective. It's not like buying from pinball life/marco/bay area. You guys look at these sites and assume manufacturers pay close to those prices. that is not the case. When you are making 1000's of games, the price for parts, assembly, programming and such drop significantly and only gets less when more games are made.

yes, but with the lower price point, comes with more sales. So if he sells 1000 games less but with 3k profit more, is he really going to lose money, than he would if he sold 1000 more games at 3k less? Personally, I think it might be a wash. One could say less work for more profit is better. But in the small pinball world, I would want more people to have my product out there as it's advertising for future machines. The more machines in customer hands and on route, the more your name gets out there, and the more fans you will earn for your company. Once fans are dedicated to your brand, you will sell more in the long run. At a $8500 min price entry point. I think he is alienating a good majority of his buyer market. As many have price cutoffs at 6500 and 7500. I think a huge % was lost when he went beyond the 7500 price point. Same with operators. Spending 3k more for a JJP game to put on route over a Stern premium, is hard to make that kind of revenue up. That's a lot of plays you are in the hole before you even open the box.

I bought LOTR NIB in 2007 for $3400. So calculate that one. Stern managed to lower the price after 4 years of making games.

secondary market should have no bearing on current game manufacturing. Nothing. When they are done making a title and off to something else, they could give a shit what they sell for, they are hyping up their current runs. Nothing to do with anything. Just showing that from 2003-2007 seems companies were doing just fine without a $500 price increase for every damn game they made. B/W didn't do it, and stern didn't do it, until JJP entered the picture.

gimp action figure that is similar to the tube dancer in BBB.

just like button smashing to kill tie fighters.

don't be so sure about that. Couple people around here are having to jump through hoops to get things wrong with their games remedied.

that is true. Neither one bought through you on those.