(Topic ID: 191281)

Jjp 4- pirates of the Caribbean


By Georgeh

2 years ago



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#2851 2 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

So you are really buying this shit that JJP's manufacturing costs go up by $500 every single release? Really. So Jacks manufacturing costs go up per game as fast as it took bally/williams to increase prices over 8 years.

If only your costs were what is in the box...

Unlike your paper theories of economics, JJP has to manage the real bank account... I think it's pretty foolish to think you really know what their actual operational costs look like, their actual revenue, or their obligations... and then ridiculously stupid to compare it to an industry giant from nearly 30 years ago.

#2852 2 years ago

So Collectors Editions are the real Limited Editions

#2853 2 years ago

Who cares about the limited bs.... buy the best model with the best value and the le of jjp is worth it over the standard imo. Add up the differences and it works..... sterns not so much any more.

#2854 2 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Sorry but I don't buy this whole "JJP are responsible for high pinball prices" argument that has somehow become Pinside folk law.
JJP were responsible for proving there is a market for a top end, full featured premium game with deep and complete code, solid build quality and plenty of toys that doesn't cut any corners.
Stern on the other hand were responsible for proving they could sell what was once a $4000 game for $8000.

because back when JJP started, Stern did not realize games would sell if they tacked on another 2k to the NIB price. Once this was realized, both companies seem to be on a race to see who can charge the most without losing all the customers.

#2855 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

If only your costs were what is in the box...
Unlike your paper theories of economics, JJP has to manage the real bank account... I think it's pretty foolish to think you really know what their actual operational costs look like, their actual revenue, or their obligations... and then ridiculously stupid to compare it to an industry giant from nearly 30 years ago.

i've done purchasing for companies for years, and did them for companies that made parts for bally/williams in both metal fabrication and printing. I know a lot about what it costs to make what in the pinball world. Stuff it not as expensive to make when you are buying in bulk from a manufacturing perspective. It's not like buying from pinball life/marco/bay area. You guys look at these sites and assume manufacturers pay close to those prices. that is not the case. When you are making 1000's of games, the price for parts, assembly, programming and such drop significantly and only gets less when more games are made.

#2856 2 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

i've done purchasing for companies for years, and did them for companies that made parts for bally/williams in both metal fabrication and printing. I know a lot about what it costs to make what in the pinball world. Stuff it not as expensive to make when you are buying in bulk from a manufacturing perspective. It's not like buying from pinball life/marco/bay area. You guys look at these sites and assume manufacturers pay close to those prices. that is not the case. When you are making 1000's of games, the price for parts, assembly, programming and such drop significantly and only gets less when more games are made.

Then you will also remember that Williams (the biggest player in the 90's) had to build 3000+ pinballs just to break even on cost and development for each title.
Now before you say they were only 1/3 of the price of a JJP, so was my wages, house prices, petrol, food....

#2857 2 years ago

"Build Quality"

#2858 2 years ago
Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

Then you will also remember that Williams (the biggest player in the 90's) had to build 3000+ pinballs just to break even on cost and development for each title.
Now before you say they were only 1/3 of the price of a JJP, so was my wages, house prices, petrol, food....

Per an inflation calculator I just pulled up, $1.00 (US) now is equal to about $1.70 in 1993.

I read on here that a normal NIB price for a pin in the 90s was about $3500 (not taking into account some of the clearance prices of the time), which would equal about $6000 now.

Just posting this as a reference .

10
#2859 2 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

i've done purchasing for companies for years, and did them for companies that made parts for bally/williams in both metal fabrication and printing. I know a lot about what it costs to make what in the pinball world. Stuff it not as expensive to make when you are buying in bulk from a manufacturing perspective. It's not like buying from pinball life/marco/bay area. You guys look at these sites and assume manufacturers pay close to those prices. that is not the case. When you are making 1000's of games, the price for parts, assembly, programming and such drop significantly and only gets less when more games are made.

I didn't say anything about material costs... because honestly in the grand scheme its not likely what is JJP's choke point. You are bashing them from what you think is 300% profit margin (absurd.. but lets table that for a minute). JJP has effectively one revenue stream.. games shipping. That is the biggest constraint... they can't make revenue appear for games that aren't sold. Unlike a WMS that has lots of revenue streams and different divisions floating the boat... JJP has got a single stream. JJP does not have a diverse inventory of product to sell. It has to make EVERYTHING to live on... from shipping the titles it has. That means they can't live on the same kinds of margins a WMS could live on... nevermind the order of magnitude difference in volume of units. Less units, less diverse product base == you must have much higher margins per unit to even stay in the black.

Now add in that they are slow turning product around = that's higher development cost per title. Again, more pressure to require a higher margin per unit.

That's why all this comparison to what WMS did is stupid - JJP isn't like WMS. What were acceptable margins to WMS is irrelevant to JJP.

I doubt JJP is able yet to really leverage economies of scale - they were cash strapped and volume is still questionable. The last thing you need when you are managing cash flows is 1-2 years worth of inventory anchoring you down.

As to your insight into actual BOM costs.. who is comparing to retail here? We have plenty of data points of other manufacturers trying to squeeze as much as they can from the system too.

Is JJP per unit margins higher than Stern? Probably... is that greed? Not likely, they need that higher per unit because they don't have the volume or cost efficiencies that your comparison companies do.

#2860 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Smaller development team + existing contract manufacturing business. I can see how JJP cost way more money to get going.

Exactly.. gigabyte is a cash cow, so they don't need to necessarily feel rushed to put out a pinball in order to keep afloat. Homepin is sort of this way too, they are building replacement williams boards (stocked at pinball life), and I believe some hankin stuff.

#2861 2 years ago

I just did a quick price up of a JJP POTC at 0.71c an LE will be 15.3k NZ ish inc gst + shipping
A Stern SWLE is 15.2K landed through our distributor.
So all in all A JJP POTC will be 1-1.5k more...

#2862 2 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

because back when JJP started, Stern did not realize games would sell if they tacked on another 2k to the NIB price. Once this was realized, both companies seem to be on a race to see who can charge the most without losing all the customers.

#2863 2 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

Drop back down to the 6500-7500 range and sell more games. Guarantee he would sell at least 1000-2000 more games by doing that. And more than enough make up the money from not cash grabbing from fewer sales.

But then they have to scale production to make those 2,000 games, which has its own problems and expense. Better to make the same money making fewer games and keeping scaling slow and steady.

#2864 2 years ago
Quoted from TKDalumni:

It's kind of bugging me that JJP is calling the LE version a Limited Edition. I know that sounds silly, but it's not limited. More of like a Stern Premium which they will make as many as the market bares....just sayin.

Think of it more as a package. My Dodge pickup is a "limited edition", so is my Harley motorcycle. Neither one of them are limited in numbers, but instead, it is a predetermined set of options that are included in the "limited edition" package.

I know is the word "limited" means it should be a certain number, but in this context, I think it refers more to package level.

Hope that helps... a little.

#2865 2 years ago
Quoted from KingPinGames:

Think of it more as a package. My Dodge pickup is a "limited edition", so is my Harley motorcycle. Neither one of them are limited in numbers, but instead, it is a predetermined set of options that are included in the "limited edition" package.
I know is the word "limited" means it should be a certain number, but in this context, I think it refers more to package level.
Hope that helps... a little.

For cars the LE typically stands for "Luxury Edition".

#2866 2 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

For cars the LE typically stands for "Luxury Edition".

Let's face it, they are premiums, but JJP doesn't want to use the word premium and go head to head with model names with Stern.

A change of terms on JJPs part might be nice if these aren't truly limited. The 1500 limited Hobbit was a little out of whack, now not having a limit seems to require a new name.

I'm in for the Luxury Edition

#2867 2 years ago

Switching the CE and LE would do the trick. Then you would have a base model with the SE, some added bling with the CE and a true limited edition with the LE

#2868 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Smaller development team + existing contract manufacturing business. I can see how JJP cost way more money to get going.

I agree. But just because they lost money at $6,500 on their initial startup project doesn't mean they would lose money today at $6,500. I guess that's all I'm trying to say. Do I know for sure... of course not.

#2869 2 years ago

I just can't resist.... LE = Lemming Edition. (Which is what I'll probably order)

Anyone know if a prototype game will be in NYC? We're not that far from lakewood NJ.

Where was DI sent to?

#2870 2 years ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

Who cares about the limited bs.... buy the best model with the best value and the le of jjp is worth it over the standard imo. Add up the differences and it works..... sterns not so much any more.

Does it value difference work on the CE I'm buying BigD?

How about selling and "LE" that's not limited on the secondary market? Or the CE?

Who cares about any of it, buy what you like, you will LOSE $$$ when you go to sell it if you do

If you can't stand losing $2k-$3K then don't buy it because that's what's gonna happen

Pinball is supposed to be FUN!!!

Does anybody think that Jack is trying to extract every last $$$ out of our pockets? Of course he is.

When they get smarter they will make smaller runs of LE's with different amounts and stick to it like they did with RRWOZ and Broken Arrow or whatever it is with TH.

DI sales are being crushed by POTC thankfully

#2871 2 years ago
Quoted from mesmashu:

I agree. But just because they lost money at $6,500 on their initial startup project doesn't mean they would lose money today at $6,500. I guess that's all I'm trying to say. Do I know for sure... of course not.

There is the economic term called opportunity cost. If they charge $6500 for a game that people will pay $3,000 more for, they are losing money.

You'd have to research to know at what point they lose sales by pricing too high, and only Neo seems to know this with certainty.

#2872 2 years ago
Quoted from RTS:

There is the economic term called opportunity cost. If they charge $6500 for a game that people will pay $3,000 more for, they are losing money.
You'd have to research to know at what point they lose sales by pricing too high, and only Neo seems to know this with certainty.

yes, but with the lower price point, comes with more sales. So if he sells 1000 games less but with 3k profit more, is he really going to lose money, than he would if he sold 1000 more games at 3k less? Personally, I think it might be a wash. One could say less work for more profit is better. But in the small pinball world, I would want more people to have my product out there as it's advertising for future machines. The more machines in customer hands and on route, the more your name gets out there, and the more fans you will earn for your company. Once fans are dedicated to your brand, you will sell more in the long run. At a $8500 min price entry point. I think he is alienating a good majority of his buyer market. As many have price cutoffs at 6500 and 7500. I think a huge % was lost when he went beyond the 7500 price point. Same with operators. Spending 3k more for a JJP game to put on route over a Stern premium, is hard to make that kind of revenue up. That's a lot of plays you are in the hole before you even open the box.

#2873 2 years ago

I've been watching some more gameplay videos and did notice that video clips from the movies are in the game. I was wondering if JJP had the rights to use video assets, good to see they do! It's still a bummer that none of the voices can be used but I think the video clips along with custom speech by Kevin McNally will work well.

Capture (resized).JPG

Also, what a cool hidden shot behind the upper left flipper!

Capture (resized).JPG

#2874 2 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

I've been watching some more gameplay videos and did notice that video clips from the movies are in the game. I was wondering if JJP had the rights to use video assets, good to see they do! It's still a bummer that none of the voices can be used but I think the video clips along with custom speech by Kevin McNally will work well.

I think they have rights to the clips as long as the actors faces arent shown.

#2875 2 years ago

Official rumor is that JJP9 is Sharknado. I'm sure all assets are available. (OK I started the rumor in the Sharknado thread)

I have actually put other actors into scenes from major films quite convincingly, using Greenscreen and other techniques. Maybe that's a way around some of the license issues.

#2876 2 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

I've been watching some more gameplay videos and did notice that video clips from the movies are in the game. I was wondering if JJP had the rights to use video assets, good to see they do! It's still a bummer that none of the voices can be used but I think the video clips along with custom speech by Kevin McNally will work well.

Also, what a cool hidden shot behind the upper left flipper!

Here is our video. Not much excitement in my wife's game, but it is real fun to play. Maybe because it is just new, but it has that "I want to figure this deep code game out" feel to it ... one more time.

#2877 2 years ago
Quoted from brucipher:

Per an inflation calculator I just pulled up, $1.00 (US) now is equal to about $1.70 in 1993.
I read on here that a normal NIB price for a pin in the 90s was about $3500 (not taking into account some of the clearance prices of the time), which would equal about $6000 now.
Just posting this as a reference .

In 2003 I bought a TSPP for $3500 delivered. What's the inflation calculator calculate that as?

#2878 2 years ago
Quoted from Pinballlew:

In 2003 I bought a TSPP for $3500 delivered. What's the inflation calculator calculate that as?

I bought LOTR NIB in 2007 for $3400. So calculate that one. Stern managed to lower the price after 4 years of making games.

#2879 2 years ago

They should have gotten the rights to use all video clips in the movies and with the actors faces. The goal should be to make the best game possible and Disney or whovever should have made this happen too. It’s 2017 enough with the hold outs and this or that can’t be done, just horrible. In the end I hope this is a huge hit and want to play.

#2880 2 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

I bought LOTR NIB in 2007 for $3400. So calculate that one. Stern managed to lower the price after 4 years of making games.

Not in the debate but I think your point is what the manufacturers realized. For a Long time this was a Sellers market. We ALL were able to buy basically Any game and know we were going to not only have fun but make $$ on it. NIB or Used! LOTR has been out of production for 8 years. Is it fair to the OEM or the secondary market that the current market value is Double what you paid for it in your example? Point being, the OEM's (right or wrong) are equalizing the market. My guess is they assume "Why should the secondary market make 100% profit on a game when we sell them only making 35%?" Is this fun or fair, no. I think we have All seen the days of buying a 1200 WW or FH etc etc and selling them for triple to quadruple our investment or over as far as the New products. Or at least I hope so. lol As for this JJP POTC thread, no matter happy or not about the price few can deny that JJP has Drastically raised the bar in quality, support, warranty, build, technology, innovation, I could go on. Shame on Stern for hitching their wagon ($$$) onto JJP without taking their lead and trying to Improve not continue building games. Now how about that Awesome JJP POTC! My money is in, I been Jacked!!!

#2881 2 years ago

I had all the right shots lit and stacked multiballs here in this vid,

#2882 2 years ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Not in the debate but I think your point is what the manufacturers realized. For a Long time this was a Sellers market. We ALL were able to buy basically Any game and know we were going to not only have fun but make $$ on it. NIB or Used! LOTR has been out of production for 8 years. Is it fair to the OEM or the secondary market that the current market value is Double what you paid for it in your example? Point being, the OEM's (right or wrong) are equalizing the market. My guess is they assume "Why should the secondary market make 100% profit on a game when we sell them only making 35%?" Is this fun or fair, no. I think we have All seen the days of buying a 1200 WW or FH etc etc and selling them for triple to quadruple our investment or over as far as the New products. Or at least I hope so. lol As for this JJP POTC thread, no matter happy or not about the price few can deny that JJP has Drastically raised the bar in quality, support, warranty, build, technology, innovation, I could go on. Shame on Stern for hitching their wagon ($$$) onto JJP without taking their lead and trying to Improve not continue building games. Now how about that Awesome JJP POTC! My money is in, I been Jacked!!!

secondary market should have no bearing on current game manufacturing. Nothing. When they are done making a title and off to something else, they could give a shit what they sell for, they are hyping up their current runs. Nothing to do with anything. Just showing that from 2003-2007 seems companies were doing just fine without a $500 price increase for every damn game they made. B/W didn't do it, and stern didn't do it, until JJP entered the picture.

#2883 2 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

secondary market should have no bearing on current game manufacturing. Nothing. When they are done making a title and off to something else, they could give a shit what they sell for, they are hyping up their current runs. Nothing to do with anything. Just showing that from 2003-2007 seems companies were doing just fine without a $500 price increase for every damn game they made. B/W didn't do it, and stern didn't do it, until JJP entered the picture.

Maybe your right. But for me, If I produced a high end product with No real competition and realized it was being sold for double later I would certainly reevaluate my market potential and value. Do I believe a Ferrari actually costs 1 million dollars? No but as long as the buying market thinks so they can set prices as the Market deems necessary. Simple supply and demand. The Best products in the world don't necessarily have value, they have perceived value which is an OEMs Dream. Heck you live in WI, Harley is the Biggest cost Whore of the World! Yes I own one! Is that bike better, faster, market priced fair, or even Close to the technology and precision of a BMW or Honda. Not in there best day. I own all three, and Harley is my customer. They know they have a Marketing juggernaut! lol We are good and your opinion is what you believe which is why we live in America!

#2884 2 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

secondary market should have no bearing on current game manufacturing. Nothing. When they are done making a title and off to something else, they could give a shit what they sell for, they are hyping up their current runs. Nothing to do with anything. Just showing that from 2003-2007 seems companies were doing just fine without a $500 price increase for every damn game they made. B/W didn't do it, and stern didn't do it, until JJP entered the picture.

I was more inclined to buy new when I thought a pin would hold its value and I wouldn't lose money. Not that it's actually lost after all the fun and that argument has been beat to death. That said, I have DILE and TNA on order so it hasn't completely stopped me. It did stop me from buying a Star Wars. Most of my recent purchases have been used pros. IMO that is where the value is for fun/dollar currently.

I'm holding off on pirates for now and will likely get one on the used market which is what I should be doing with DILE.

#2885 2 years ago

I don’t know JJP profit margins, but you have to keep in mind that a 10% price cut might might cut their gross margin by 1/3 (as an example). As a result, you have to sell a lot more to make up for a modest price decrease. Vice versa, a modest price increase can have a large positive impact on profitability if there isn’t much negative impact on sales volumes.

#2886 2 years ago
Quoted from Pinballlew:

In 2003 I bought a TSPP for $3500 delivered. What's the inflation calculator calculate that as?

$1.00 now is equal to $1.33 in 2003, so $4655.00.

#2887 2 years ago

Saturday at Expo the 14th about 160 of the 200 CE were sold.

#2888 2 years ago
Quoted from mnpinball:

Saturday at Expo the 14th about 160 of the 200 CE were sold.

That's great to hear. This looks like a winner for JJP and I'm really looking forward to playing one. My first chance will likely be SFGE in June 2018, so it's going to be a long wait.

#2889 2 years ago

This price debate (I have no opinion on it) certainly hasn't lessened my excitement for my first ever NIB machine (LE)! Hurry up Q1 2018!

#2890 2 years ago

One landed here in Australia for the show this weekend with Jack and Jack Jnr

https://www.facebook.com/events/121606861838600/

IMG_1788 (resized).JPG

#2891 2 years ago
Quoted from brucipher:

Per an inflation calculator I just pulled up, $1.00 (US) now is equal to about $1.70 in 1993.
I read on here that a normal NIB price for a pin in the 90s was about $3500 (not taking into account some of the clearance prices of the time), which would equal about $6000 now.
Just posting this as a reference .

That calculates inflation of material cost but does not factor technology and programming advancements.

#2892 2 years ago
Quoted from mnpinball:

Saturday at Expo the 14th about 160 of the 200 CE were sold.

Actually not sold just a refundable deposit put down .... big difference. Will see how many are still in when its time to fork over 12 k more in 8 -10 month's with the multiple new cheaper releases coming out beforehand. Im betting many back out of this and the le .....

-1
#2893 2 years ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

Actually not sold just a refundable deposit put down .... big difference. Will see how many are still in when its time to fork over 12 k more in 8 -10 month's with the multiple new cheaper releases coming out beforehand. Im betting many back out of this and the le .....

That would be fine by me. But this isn't DI where they sold a handful of CE's by comparison.

There will always be dropouts AND there will be newcomers as well. Depends on how well its actually received.

Think about the piling in on the BM66SLE.

Who knows what else will come out by next summer, that's why i wish JJP would be able to announce and get these pins out much quicker.

#2894 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

That would be fine by me. But this isn't DI where they sold a handful of CE's by comparison.
There will always be dropouts AND there will be newcomers as well. Depends on how well its actually received.
Think about the piling in on the BM66SLE.
Who knows what else will come out by next summer, that's why i wish JJP would be able to announce and get these pins out much quicker.

I wld guess 2 or 3 new stern pins , a cgc remake and a spooky title will be released at least by the time the ce starts shipping.... and probably the le also.

#2895 2 years ago
Quoted from Jackontherocks:

They should have gotten the rights to use all video clips in the movies and with the actors faces.

My understanding is the actors or actresses own the rights to their audio and video. So times 23, this would be near impossible. Add to that get Disney approval for each and every one, every time used.

That sounds like a nightmare of epic proportions.

LTG : )

#2896 2 years ago

A handful of CE DIs huh? I guess your reading of the system is different than mine. Or else you have huge hands.

#2897 2 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

My understanding is the actors or actresses own the rights to their audio and video. So times 23, this would be near impossible. Add to that get Disney approval for each and every one, every time used.
That sounds like a nightmare of epic proportions.
LTG : )

I actually like the more generic clips, makes it a more generic pirates game.

#2898 2 years ago

Sorry forgot if it was mentioned somewhere but can anyone confirm or deny if JJPOTC will have full theme music upon release?

#2899 2 years ago
Quoted from mnpinball:

Saturday at Expo the 14th about 160 of the 200 CE were sold.

False. It's not sold until full payment is in and the game is shipped. Until then you have 160 interested enough to drop a small deposit. Still, pretty impressive that many $12.5k CEs were reserved!

#2900 2 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

secondary market should have no bearing on current game manufacturing. Nothing. When they are done making a title and off to something else, they could give a shit what they sell for, they are hyping up their current runs. Nothing to do with anything. Just showing that from 2003-2007 seems companies were doing just fine without a $500 price increase for every damn game they made. B/W didn't do it, and stern didn't do it, until JJP entered the picture.

Secondary market is very much an important factor. It is an indicator of the strength of the buyer market... how much money is flowing. It's why people get into businesses like replacement parts and value-add products.

Stern wasn't doing ok 2003-2007. What JJP proved to Stern was they didn't understand the market anymore.

When companies learn they are under pricing their product - they will adapt and raise ASPs. That's what Stern has been doing.

You are basically arguing for status quo because in a different time and at a different place... people didn't change. That is horrible business strategy

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