(Topic ID: 292634)

Jive Time bonus scoring won't stop

By Incomer

5 months ago


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  • 22 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 months ago by Incomer
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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20210508_210708 (resized).jpg
20210508_211602 (resized).jpg
Jive Time Bonus Unit (resized).jpg
Bonus Unit at 27 (resized).jpg
bonus relay reactivation path (resized).png
bonus count down circuit (resized).png
Jive Time Score Motor Chart (resized).jpg
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Jive Time Bonus count (resized).jpg
section for troubleshooting 1 (resized).jpg

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#2 5 months ago

It's possible that the Bonus Unit stepper isn't working properly. With the game unplugged you can test it by pushing in either solenoid plunger all the way. Then release the plunger and let the springs move the wiper disk. It should step cleanly from one position to the next in both directions across its entire range without any hesitation or sluggishness. At any position all four wiper fingers should land directly over a contact on the wiper board, not off center or between two contacts. The wiper fingers should also have enough tension to remain firmly in contact with the contact board.

After that check the switches on the Bonus Unit. In particular there is a zero position switch on the unit (red-black wire to black wire) that should open when the Unit is in the zero position as shown in the manual. The switch will be on the opposite side from the wiper fingers.
Jive Time Bonus count (resized).jpg
Once you've checked the Bonus Unit pay attention to what the Bonus relay does. It should fire when the Spin Unit selects it and it should stay active until the Bonus Unit reaches its zero position and the Zero Position switch (in red) opens. When the Bonus Unit reaches zero the Bonus relay should relax, which in turn will open a switch and cut power to the Eject relay by opening a normally closed switch (in red). Soon after, because the Bonus Unit is in the zero position, the Score Motor 6A switch (in red) will fire both the Bonus Unit SU (step up) solenoid to take the bonus back to 1000, and the two Eject coils.

It sounds like your Bonus relay isn't relaxing reliably when the Bonus Unit reaches zero so understanding what it does will be helpful.

/Mark

#7 5 months ago
Quoted from Incomer:

I’d like to ask you what tool you use to change the colour on the schematic sections?

HowardR is correct, I usually use Gimp to prepare schematics. But the program you use isn't as important as the brush features it offers. To turn parts of the schematic red I use a paint brush mode called "Lighten only" which affects only colors that are darker than the color you're painting with. So black turns to red, or whatever color you're using, and white is left unchanged.

Quoted from Incomer:

My reading of the schematic here is different from yours. The switch which cuts the power to the eject relay is NC, so when the bonus relay activates this switch opens and it at this point the eject relay should relax (unless held in through the motor switch).

You're right of course, the Eject relay relaxes when the Motor 4C switch opens after the Bonus relay (or any of the other award relays) fires.

I would focus my attention on the first thing to go wrong which I think is the Bonus relay reactivating once it has relaxed. The later issues may be a consequence of the Bonus relay misbehavior. The Score Motor in particular is probably running because the Bonus relay has reactivated.

I think the order of events once the Bonus relay has fired is:

- the Motor 4C switch releases the Eject relay
- the Motor 5A switch releases the Spin relay
- the Motor 6B switch releases the Bonus relay if the Bonus Unit is at zero
Jive Time Score Motor Chart (resized).jpg

One unusual aspect of this game is that the Motor appears to always rotate a full 360 degrees rather than the 180 degree half turn which is more common. Note that the Index motor cam only has one notch, not two like the other cams. Also note that the 6B switch that should release the Bonus relay only fires once in the revolution, presumably near the end of the 360 degree turn as the last of the possible ten 1000 bonus points are being counted.

In your videos it looks like the Bonus relay is releasing near the end of a cycle so let's assume that the zero position and 6B switches are opening as they should. I too suspect the Eject relay switch in series with the Motor Index B switch. The Index B switch would briefly fire the Bonus relay if the Eject relay switch were still closed. You could block the Eject relay switch to see if that prevents the Bonus relay from reactivating. That would verify that that path is reactivating the Bonus relay.

Another option is to disconnect the Score Motor service jack and to rotate it slowly by hand to see what the sequence of events is in slow motion.

#9 5 months ago
Quoted from Incomer:

Yes, blocking the eject relay switch does prevent the bonus relay from reactivating - the motor continues to run because the eject relay is still energised

Ok. Maybe the Bonus relay is the victim and not the culprit. Why is the Eject relay not releasing, or why is it reactivating?

Are the Spin and Eject relays releasing as described in reply #7?

#11 5 months ago
Quoted from Incomer:

Releasing the Eject relay requires Motor 4C and the bonus relay NC switch to be open at the same time - however for low bonus count cam 4 never reaches the release position before the open at zero switch on the bonus unit releases the bonus relay - so the two switches are never open at the same time

I think even once the Bonus Count Zero switch opens, the Motor 6B switch should keep the Bonus relay active until after the Eject relay should relax at 4C as pointed out by pinballdaveh earlier. I think if 6B weren't closing the Bonus relay would release too soon and you'd see at least some of the issues you're seeing.

#13 5 months ago

I agree that the issue is likely in the path that you highlighted. I'd like to understand why the Eject relay won't let go at Motor 4C though if the Bonus relay holds on until 6B. If you set the Spin Unit to select the bonus, then block power to the Spin Motor I wonder if you could try turning the Score Motor manually again to see if you can unwind the sequence of events.

You may need to manually activate the Delay relays since they rely on the Spin Unit turning to fire. I haven't figured out what their role is yet but they're there for a reason.

#15 5 months ago

I'm glad you got it sorted out. Switches that close but don't complete the circuit fool lots of folks.

What stops the bonus at 30? Is there a mechanical limit like a missing tooth on the gear? If there is the problem might be that the missing tooth should come into play at the 10th step and not the 30th step. Can the gear be mounted in any other position?

#18 5 months ago
Quoted from Incomer:

The reason the bonus doesn't increase higher than 30 is that the step up coil locks on at 30 bonus

I'm pretty sure that shouldn't happen. Do the bonus lights go out after the 10,000 point light too?

What happening is that the stepper is advancing 20 steps too far and completing circuits it shouldn't.
Jive Time Bonus Unit (resized).jpg
Normally the red wiper steps counter clockwise as the bonus advances to contacts 13-4 which light the ten Bonus lights as shown on the lower left schematic. The red wiper is connected to the yellow/common wire on the schematic and is labeled "Grounded Wiper" on the diagram.

Separately the three blue wipers connect contacts 1-3 together when the Bonus Unit is in the zero position. They're insulated so that in the zero position they connect the brown wire (contact 3) to the Bonus Unit step up solenoid (contact 2) and the two Eject coils (contact 1). The rest of the time they don't make any other connections.

What's happening in your case is that the red lighting circuit wiper is taking 30 steps until it reaches contact 2 where it fires the Bonus Unit Step Up solenoid.

Without a limit switch to keep this from happening there should be a mechanical limit of some kind that's not on the schematic.

Perhaps another Jive Time owner can comment?

#21 5 months ago

Sorry, I can't help you with the green paint.

No need for paypal. Just give someone else a hand when you have an opportunity.

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