(Topic ID: 292634)

Jive Time bonus scoring won't stop


By Incomer

14 days ago

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  • Latest reply 3 days ago by Incomer
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Jive Time Bonus Unit (resized).jpg
Bonus Unit at 27 (resized).jpg
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#1 14 days ago

Hi everyone

I have a Williams Jive Time with a peculiar problem which has me stumped despite many hours of investigation and head scratching – I’m hoping someone out there might be able to give me inspiration to find what is wrong.

I’m sorry, it needs a long explanation.

The issue occurs when I’m awarded bonus countdown from a spin, and depends on the position on the bonus ladder.

What should happen is that the bonus should count to zero, the ball eject from the spin hole, and one bonus added back to the ladder.

That works correctly provided the bonus is on 5 or 6K. (only) (or beyond the bonus limit – see comment and video in 2 at the end of this post)

If the bonus is 7K or above the bonus counts down correctly but the ball is not ejected, instead the game awards another spin and scores the result of that spin

If the bonus is 1 to 4K the sequence operates correctly (ie the bonus counts to zero, the ball ejects from the spin hole, and one bonus is added back to the ladder), however the motor then continues running in an indefinite loop – the bonus of one K is counted again, the eject kicker fires, and one K bonus added back to the ladder – repeat ad infinitum until the game is turned off
Video here:

I can see that for 1 – 4K bonus the eject relay is never released from being locked in, and it seems that is what keeps the motor running. For 5K bonus and above the eject relay does release.

I also have found that if I insert an insulating strip between the contacts on the bonus relay which lock in the eject relay whilst the game is in the endless loop then the eject relay gets released correctly and the loop stops. However I can see that those contacts are being opened correctly by the bonus relay itself

My reading of the schematic (extract in photo) is that
• The eject relay is energised initially from the spin relay
• It remains locked in through its own lockin switch and either of:
o An NC switch on each of a series of relays, each of which is one of the spin results
o An NC switch at motor 4C
So, I would expect the eject relay to be energised by the spin relay, and then released by whichever relay is energised as a result of the spin, unless the motor switch happened to be closed at the time.

The only logical thing I can think of for the problem I’m seeing is that, for the bonus relay, the motor switch locking in the eject relay is closing at the exact moment the switch on the bonus relay locking in the eject relay is opening.

That’s as far as I’ve got, and my brain is exploding!

• Does that seem a likely explanation?
• If it is what should I do about it?
• Why should I get three different results depending on the position on the bonus ladder?

Three other things which are relevant
1. If the award is double bonus the position is different – on 1K bonus it works correctly – scores 2K and ejects ball, on every other bonus level I get the same result as seen on single bonus of 7k plus, ie bonus counts down correctly but the ball is not ejected, instead the game awards another spin and scores the result of that spin
2. Although the maximum on the bonus ladder is 10, the game will continue adding bonus (which can be scored) up to 30. When 30 is reached there is an audible click and the game will no longer try to add bonus. For bonus levels 11K to 16K the machine behaves correctly (video here

) but at 17k it reverts to the behaviour described at 7k in the first part above
3. The game has not behaved correctly since I got it so I wonder if some part could have been fitted incorrectly? I’ve compared the bonus unit disc to the picture in the manual and it appears to be the correct unit and correspond in appearance and orientation.

If anyone can help me solve this I shall be eternally grateful, and will make an additional donation to Pinside by way of a thanks offering!

David

section for troubleshooting 1 (resized).jpg
#2 13 days ago

It's possible that the Bonus Unit stepper isn't working properly. With the game unplugged you can test it by pushing in either solenoid plunger all the way. Then release the plunger and let the springs move the wiper disk. It should step cleanly from one position to the next in both directions across its entire range without any hesitation or sluggishness. At any position all four wiper fingers should land directly over a contact on the wiper board, not off center or between two contacts. The wiper fingers should also have enough tension to remain firmly in contact with the contact board.

After that check the switches on the Bonus Unit. In particular there is a zero position switch on the unit (red-black wire to black wire) that should open when the Unit is in the zero position as shown in the manual. The switch will be on the opposite side from the wiper fingers.
Jive Time Bonus count (resized).jpg
Once you've checked the Bonus Unit pay attention to what the Bonus relay does. It should fire when the Spin Unit selects it and it should stay active until the Bonus Unit reaches its zero position and the Zero Position switch (in red) opens. When the Bonus Unit reaches zero the Bonus relay should relax, which in turn will open a switch and cut power to the Eject relay by opening a normally closed switch (in red). Soon after, because the Bonus Unit is in the zero position, the Score Motor 6A switch (in red) will fire both the Bonus Unit SU (step up) solenoid to take the bonus back to 1000, and the two Eject coils.

It sounds like your Bonus relay isn't relaxing reliably when the Bonus Unit reaches zero so understanding what it does will be helpful.

/Mark

#3 12 days ago

MarkG Thank you. I'll check through all that, hopefully tomorrow, and report my findings!

#4 12 days ago

Hi MarkG, and anyone else following this thread

First of all thank you for taking the time to analyse the problem and provide such a detailed response

I’d like to ask you what tool you use to change the colour on the schematic sections? – I often find myself helping other people by using schematic extracts and the ability to do what you have done would help with that enormously

I’ve been through your suggestions and added my findings below

YOUR COMMENT
It's possible that the Bonus Unit stepper isn't working properly. With the game unplugged you can test it by pushing in either solenoid plunger all the way. Then release the plunger and let the springs move the wiper disk. It should step cleanly from one position to the next in both directions across its entire range without any hesitation or sluggishness. At any position all four wiper fingers should land directly over a contact on the wiper board, not off center or between two contacts. The wiper fingers should also have enough tension to remain firmly in contact with the contact board.

MY REPLY
The stepper unit is operating with a clean firm action. The wiper fingers are centred at all positions in the bonus ladder (see Photo 1). There is plenty of tension on each of the wiper fingers, and I’ve checked that there is continuity between the wiper fingers and the rivets when they are in contact with each other. As noted in my initial comments the bonus will continue to increase beyond the 10 maximum at which point the wiper arms move into areas unpopulated by rivets

YOUR COMMENT
After that check the switches on the Bonus Unit. In particular there is a zero position switch on the unit (red-black wire to black wire) that should open when the Unit is in the zero position as shown in the manual. The switch will be on the opposite side from the wiper fingers.

MY REPLY
There are actually two zero position switches on this game (the second opens the circuit to the 1,000 point relay and is at E14 on the schematic). I’ve checked that both do open cleanly at the zero bonus position (see Photo 2)

YOUR COMMENT
Once you've checked the Bonus Unit pay attention to what the Bonus relay does. It should fire when the Spin Unit selects it and it should stay active until the Bonus Unit reaches its zero position and the Zero Position switch (in red) opens.

MY REPLY
Yes it does. The following videos show what I am seeing.
1. Count of 4 bonus, then endless loop:


2. Count of 6 bonus then eject and add 1 bonus (correct behaviour) :

3. Count of 8 bonus. Note, no eject. If ball had been in hole the game would have give a second spin:

4. Count of 14 bonus (max should be 10, but the game will go up to 30):

YOUR COMMENT
When the Bonus Unit reaches zero the Bonus relay should relax, which in turn will open a switch and cut power to the Eject relay by opening a normally closed switch (in red).

MY REPLY
My reading of the schematic here is different from yours. The switch which cuts the power to the eject relay is NC, so when the bonus relay activates this switch opens and it at this point the eject relay should relax (unless held in through the motor switch). This is what happens for the other spin awards. In my videos above, the switch we are talking about is the one on the far right. Interestingly, if I put an insulating strip between these contacts whilst the game is in the endless loop, the eject relay relaxes and the loop finishes

YOUR COMMENT
Soon after, because the Bonus Unit is in the zero position, the Score Motor 6A switch (in red) will fire both the Bonus Unit SU (step up) solenoid to take the bonus back to 1000, and the two Eject coils.

MY REPLY
That is what I see when the bonus starts at anything from 1 to 6. If the bonus starts between 7 and 10 there is no eject or add bonus when the count reaches zero (see video 3 above) , instead the game will activate the spin relay again and award the result (if the spin result is “Bonus” then the game will go back into its endless loop)

It would seem to me that something is keeping the eject relay energised when it shouldn’t be. However it appears the bonus relay is opening the lockin switch to the eject relay correctly, and the motor break switch to the eject relay lockin is working for the other spin awards, and there is no other route to lock in the eject relay.

It is that that led to me wondering if there is some timing interaction between the bonus relay and the motor, whereby at the moment the circuit is interrupted by the NC motor switch opening, the NC switch on the bonus relay momentarily closes because zero bonus count has been reached. However that would sound like a design fault that would affect all Jive Times, and I can’t find any reports of anyone having a similar problem.

Does any of the above suggest what I should try next?

Thanks again for your input, it is most appreciated

Regards
David

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#5 12 days ago

Have you checked out score motor cam 6 switch B yet? It’s a normally closed switch in parallel with the zero position switch. Both switches must open to release the bonus relay. Clean and check gap if needed.

#6 12 days ago
Quoted from Incomer:

what tool you use to change the colour on the schematic sections?

I use LView Pro, which runs on Windows and also on Linux (with Wine) http://www.lview.com/

MarkG can verify but I think he uses the GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP) https://www.gimp.org/

#7 11 days ago
Quoted from Incomer:

I’d like to ask you what tool you use to change the colour on the schematic sections?

HowardR is correct, I usually use Gimp to prepare schematics. But the program you use isn't as important as the brush features it offers. To turn parts of the schematic red I use a paint brush mode called "Lighten only" which affects only colors that are darker than the color you're painting with. So black turns to red, or whatever color you're using, and white is left unchanged.

Quoted from Incomer:

My reading of the schematic here is different from yours. The switch which cuts the power to the eject relay is NC, so when the bonus relay activates this switch opens and it at this point the eject relay should relax (unless held in through the motor switch).

You're right of course, the Eject relay relaxes when the Motor 4C switch opens after the Bonus relay (or any of the other award relays) fires.

I would focus my attention on the first thing to go wrong which I think is the Bonus relay reactivating once it has relaxed. The later issues may be a consequence of the Bonus relay misbehavior. The Score Motor in particular is probably running because the Bonus relay has reactivated.

I think the order of events once the Bonus relay has fired is:

- the Motor 4C switch releases the Eject relay
- the Motor 5A switch releases the Spin relay
- the Motor 6B switch releases the Bonus relay if the Bonus Unit is at zero
Jive Time Score Motor Chart (resized).jpg

One unusual aspect of this game is that the Motor appears to always rotate a full 360 degrees rather than the 180 degree half turn which is more common. Note that the Index motor cam only has one notch, not two like the other cams. Also note that the 6B switch that should release the Bonus relay only fires once in the revolution, presumably near the end of the 360 degree turn as the last of the possible ten 1000 bonus points are being counted.

In your videos it looks like the Bonus relay is releasing near the end of a cycle so let's assume that the zero position and 6B switches are opening as they should. I too suspect the Eject relay switch in series with the Motor Index B switch. The Index B switch would briefly fire the Bonus relay if the Eject relay switch were still closed. You could block the Eject relay switch to see if that prevents the Bonus relay from reactivating. That would verify that that path is reactivating the Bonus relay.

Another option is to disconnect the Score Motor service jack and to rotate it slowly by hand to see what the sequence of events is in slow motion.

#8 11 days ago

Thank you for the info on Gimp - I shall make good use of that

Yes, blocking the eject relay switch does prevent the bonus relay from reactivating - the motor continues to run because the eject relay is still energised

6B is opening fine

I did rotate the score motor slowly by hand:
Initially I did it after closing an eject hole switch, but that was difficult to follow as the first thing it does is set the spinner running, and I had no control over where it landed as I continued the rotation.
I did separately observe though that if I manually held in the bonus relay whilst advancing the score motor and with the eject relay energised, the eject relay did get released by the motor switch as it should

#9 11 days ago
Quoted from Incomer:

Yes, blocking the eject relay switch does prevent the bonus relay from reactivating - the motor continues to run because the eject relay is still energised

Ok. Maybe the Bonus relay is the victim and not the culprit. Why is the Eject relay not releasing, or why is it reactivating?

Are the Spin and Eject relays releasing as described in reply #7?

#10 11 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Are the Spin and Eject relays releasing as described in reply #7?

No

The spin relay releases OK , but for bonus count 4 and under the Eject relay never releases.

From the motor diagram it is easy to see why this might happen:

Releasing the Eject relay requires Motor 4C and the bonus relay NC switch to be open at the same time - however for low bonus count cam 4 never reaches the release position before the open at zero switch on the bonus unit releases the bonus relay - so the two switches are never open at the same time

That would also explain why the game would function correctly at a bonus count of 5 or 6 since cam 4 would by that time have reached its release position before the bonus relay relaxes

I questioned in my mind how this could be got around, and came to the conclusion that if the actual bonus countdown could be delayed whilst the game completed a revolution of the score motor and with the bonus relay energised then that would produce the correct result. With that in mind I checked out the schematic expecting one of the two delay relays related to the spin relay to temporarily interrupt the circuit to the bonus countdown.

Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to be the case - from this extract I read that with the bonus relay energised, as soon as the motor rotates the bonus unit will count down to zero from the impulse cam.

Which leaves me with the puzzle - how is the game designed to relax the eject relay for bonus counts below 5?

bonus count down circuit (resized).png
#11 10 days ago
Quoted from Incomer:

Releasing the Eject relay requires Motor 4C and the bonus relay NC switch to be open at the same time - however for low bonus count cam 4 never reaches the release position before the open at zero switch on the bonus unit releases the bonus relay - so the two switches are never open at the same time

I think even once the Bonus Count Zero switch opens, the Motor 6B switch should keep the Bonus relay active until after the Eject relay should relax at 4C as pointed out by pinballdaveh earlier. I think if 6B weren't closing the Bonus relay would release too soon and you'd see at least some of the issues you're seeing.

#12 10 days ago

I've rechecked the 6B switch
It is making OK - the motor diagram actually shows it as NO but it is clear from the switch layout and the schematic that is NC - I have good continuity across it

To ensure there wasn't a wire break related to this switch, I checked continuity from the red blue side of 6B through to the red blue side of the open at zero switch, and also to the red blue side of the lockin switch on the bonus relay, and from the black side to the black elsewhere.

The reactivation of the bonus relay seems to be coming from the section of the circuit I've highlighted - I say that because the ongoing pulse to the bonus relay co-incides exactly with the index relay hitting it's depression/dwell position hence momentarily closing the index motor switch B. Obviously this is only occurring because the eject relay is remaining activated.

I feel increasingly sure that getting to the bottom of why the eject relay is not relaxing for bonus counts of 4 or less is going to provide the solution to this problem

Thank you for all the help so far. A little celebration will be in order when we finally crack this!

bonus relay reactivation path (resized).png
#13 10 days ago

I agree that the issue is likely in the path that you highlighted. I'd like to understand why the Eject relay won't let go at Motor 4C though if the Bonus relay holds on until 6B. If you set the Spin Unit to select the bonus, then block power to the Spin Motor I wonder if you could try turning the Score Motor manually again to see if you can unwind the sequence of events.

You may need to manually activate the Delay relays since they rely on the Spin Unit turning to fire. I haven't figured out what their role is yet but they're there for a reason.

#14 10 days ago

We're there (well almost!)

First of all apologies for not getting there earlier as the clues were in some of the earlier answers

The culprit was motor switch 6B, which keeps the bonus relay activated after the bonus count reaches zero (in effect what was said in step 5 and 11, but the opposite of what was said in step 7), in turn allowing the bonus relay to relax the eject relay

First of all, I did go through the sequence as suggested in step 13 - although it isn't relevant here now, I've kept it at the end for anyone else getting info from this thread in the future

Despite all that I did in step 12, it seems that 6B was not actually passing current in its NC position
I could see from the schematic that if the spin arrow was on bonus and the bonus unit on zero, the bonus relay should still lock in if I closed it because of 6B, and that wasn't happening
So I went back to 6B and pushed more it tightly closed - and hey presto bonus relay would now lock in.
So I have now put a bit more tension on the top blade and cleaned the contacts and the game now counts the bonus and ejects correctly (including for 7 - 10)

My one remaining issue, if you would grant me a final indulgence, is that the bonus doesn't max out at 10 but at 30. There is no limit switch on the bonus unit, and as far as I can see from the schematic the standup targets energise the advance relay which pulses the bonus step up coil without any method of interruption. Do you have any ideas on that?

MarkG and pinballdaveh - I'd like to buy you a beer to say thank you - does this forum allow you to private message me your PayPal addresses?

I've also made a $50 donation to Pinside, as promised at the start

Although the answer seems simple in hindsight I've devoted more of my life than I like to admit in getting to this point, so Thank You!

********************************************************************************************************

For the record, this was the sequence I saw when manually operating the motor (and bearing in mind that 6B was faulty at this point)

Starting with motor jack disengaged, the spin arrow on bonus, one of the delay relays engaged, spin relay energised with spin switch blocked, 4 bonus on ladder and bonus relay energised:

1. As Cam 1 closes the eject relay energises
2. The impulse cam starts to count down the bonus
3. As bonus reaches 0 the bonus relay relaxes (note that the opening of motor 4C has not yet been reached)
4. As Cam 5 Closes the Spin Relay relaxes from Switch A (that's not on the motor diagram, but it is on the schematic at C2 and in the manual)
5. As Cam 4 closes the eject coils fire and one bonus is added
6. As the index cam closes the bonus relay energises
7. As the index cam opens again the bonus relay relaxes and 1 bonus is scored
then repeat from step 5

Note - at no stage in the process does the eject relay relax

#15 9 days ago

I'm glad you got it sorted out. Switches that close but don't complete the circuit fool lots of folks.

What stops the bonus at 30? Is there a mechanical limit like a missing tooth on the gear? If there is the problem might be that the missing tooth should come into play at the 10th step and not the 30th step. Can the gear be mounted in any other position?

#16 9 days ago

thank you, I'll check that out this weekend and report back

#17 7 days ago

The reason the bonus doesn't increase higher than 30 is that the step up coil locks on at 30 bonus

It looks like it locks on through the wiper fingers since there is a reasonably large spark between the wiper finger and the rivet as it locks on

The picture shows bonus at 27, and the spark occurs at the rivet shown as the wiper finger advances to it.

There is no missing tooth on the gear, it is the same all the way round

I don't see that the gear could be mounted differently - the wiper arms are in the position shown in the manual when the arm on the gear side opens the open at zero switches

Bonus Unit at 27 (resized).jpg
#18 6 days ago
Quoted from Incomer:

The reason the bonus doesn't increase higher than 30 is that the step up coil locks on at 30 bonus

I'm pretty sure that shouldn't happen. Do the bonus lights go out after the 10,000 point light too?

What happening is that the stepper is advancing 20 steps too far and completing circuits it shouldn't.
Jive Time Bonus Unit (resized).jpg
Normally the red wiper steps counter clockwise as the bonus advances to contacts 13-4 which light the ten Bonus lights as shown on the lower left schematic. The red wiper is connected to the yellow/common wire on the schematic and is labeled "Grounded Wiper" on the diagram.

Separately the three blue wipers connect contacts 1-3 together when the Bonus Unit is in the zero position. They're insulated so that in the zero position they connect the brown wire (contact 3) to the Bonus Unit step up solenoid (contact 2) and the two Eject coils (contact 1). The rest of the time they don't make any other connections.

What's happening in your case is that the red lighting circuit wiper is taking 30 steps until it reaches contact 2 where it fires the Bonus Unit Step Up solenoid.

Without a limit switch to keep this from happening there should be a mechanical limit of some kind that's not on the schematic.

Perhaps another Jive Time owner can comment?

#19 6 days ago

Yes, the bonus lights go out above 10

I've been through my spares and found a bonus unit that came out of a Lucky Ace

That one does have a gap in the teeth (by the arm that actuates the open at zero switch) to stop the bonus increasing above 10

Interestingly, the bonus unit has the same part number, std 35, as the one in Jive Time

I would be very interested to see if the bonus unit in another Jive Time has the gap if there is another owner reading this who might comment

I'm wondering if the gear has been swapped at some stage, or even an incorrect one fitted at the factory.

If we don't hear from another owner, I will try swapping the gear from the Lucky Ace into the Jive Time bonus unit

I've attached pictures of the two units

Incidentally, I had a Big Deal recently where it could never be used on 5 ball play even though it had the 3 - 5 ball adjustment which correctly changed the scoring, because there was a gap in the teeth at ball 3 on the ball count unit

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#20 4 days ago

I went ahead and swapped the toothed wheel over and yes, the bonus now correctly maxes out at 10

Interestingly, when I have been playing the test games I've found that I collect the bonus so frequently that I've not yet even got up to 10 in an actual game, so if this was incorrect from factory it probably would have been hardly noticed

That means everything is now working - so thank you again, and if you are able to get me your Paypal address somehow I'll be more than happy to buy you that beer.

Now I need to see if I can remove the dreadful green paint someone has covered the cabinet in!

Best wishes
David

#21 4 days ago

Sorry, I can't help you with the green paint.

No need for paypal. Just give someone else a hand when you have an opportunity.

#22 3 days ago

Thanks MarkG

I do already do a lot of helping others with their problems - and it's great that when one gets beyond me I can consult people like yourself

What a brilliant community this is

Best wishes
David

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