Jet Spin Startup then Dead Playfield

So I've been trying to resurrect a JS and I've reached a roadblock. When I got the machine it would not start up and was blowing fuses. Fixed numerous dirty contacts, switch adjustments and other things and it now starts up perfectly, kicks the ball out and then the playfield goes dead, no lights or flippers or scoring. It appears like the anti-cheat switch has been activated but I checked the switches and they are correct/working.

Couple of other things to note.
1. This is my first Gottlieb 4 player machine (figure that important, LOL)
2. Lights on playfield work fine during startup
3. Ball one comes up on backbox, but will not advance to ball two when manually put ball in kickout
4. Tilting the machine works, lights come on, tilt light comes on and game ends
5. Can't add players: when ball is kicked out and replay button pressed the machine just resets.

Think that's it.

What I'm not 100% sure about is what relays should be on at that time. Tried manually activating AX but that doesn't solve the problem. Can't seem to wrap my head around this, maybe someone else has an idea of where to look.

Thanks in advance.

#2 5 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member

I would re-check the Make/Break switches on the AX; they're very tetchy. Also check the M/B sw. on U shown here.

Capture (resized).PNG

#3 5 years ago

TAE

tengle93

Pinside member

Quoted from currieddog:
I would re-check the Make/Break switches on the AX; they're very tetchy. Also check the M/B sw. on U shown here.
[quoted image]

That could be it (1st Ball Relay- U). I'll check that again. Think I looked at that already but as you said, they can be a bit of a pain.

Thanks

#4 5 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Hi tengle93
in post-1 You write: 4. Tilting ... tilt light comes on and game ends. In the beginning of post-1 You write: ... kicks the ball out and then the playfield goes dead, no lights or flippers or scoring.

Questions: When game ends do You see in the backglass lighted "Game Over" ?
During start-up are the pop bumpers lit ? then as the playfield goes dead - the pop bumpers lights turn off ?
When the playfield goes dead: Do You see "Tilt" lighted in the backglass ? Do You see "Game Over" lighted in the backglass ?
You have lifted the playfield and look into the cabinet - You toggle-on the pin, You start a game - do You see the R-Hold-Relay pull-in ? do You see the H-Tilt-Hold-Relay pull-in ? when the ball is kicked out and the playfield goes dead - do R-Relay and H-Relay (still) steady pull, stay pulling forever ? Greetings Rolf

#5 5 years ago

TAE

tengle93

Pinside member

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:
Questions: When game ends do You see in the backglass lighted "Game Over" ?

Game Over is displayed only after Tilting the game. Tilt light appears also.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:
During start-up are the pop bumpers lit ? then as the playfield goes dead - the pop bumpers lights turn off ?

Yes, pops blink and all playfield lights are on. When ball kicks out all lights go off.

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:
You have lifted the playfield and look into the cabinet - You toggle-on the pin, You start a game - do You see the R-Hold-Relay pull-in ? do You see the H-Tilt-Hold-Relay pull-in ? when the ball is kicked out and the playfield goes dead - do R-Relay and H-Relay (still) steady pull, stay pulling forever ?

I'm not at home now but I know the R relay is pulled and I believe the H relay is also but I'm not 100%. I'll check later.

Thanks Rolf

#6 5 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from tengle93:
Game Over is displayed only after Tilting the game. Tilt light appears also.

Another area to check. Notice that AX keeps popping up ...

Capture (resized).PNG

#7 5 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Hi tengle93
please wear rubber gloves when fumbling in the pin. Gottlieb let Powerside-AC-Current flow through wires and switches --- Williams and Bally pins have the switches in the returningside-connection (less dangerous for us).
hihi - currieddog is on the same spot in the schematics. Lets look at my JPG - I "encircled blue" the interesting switches. When playing a fully running Jet Spin: Now and then the pop bumper lights turn off for a moment - due to turning Score-Motor opening switch motor-3D. Playfield-Lights and pop bumper lights (no motor turning) light when either the H-Relay is pulling or the Q-Relay is pulling or both --- when in Your pin the fault shows up: Look up - the H-Relay should be steady pulling after kicking out the first ball.

The 1st Player Score Lights in the backbox must be lit in "Game Over" - to be precise: When the BX-Last-Ball-Relay has actuated - and/or the 1st Player Score Lights in the backbox must be lit when the Player-Unit has stepped to a position "its player-1 turn".
The Tilt-Light in the backbox is lit when the H-Relay is not pulling.
"Encircled blue switch on P-Relay" - when the P-Relay is pulling: Some lights are turned off.
"Encircled blue switch on AX-Relay" - in start-up the AX-Relay does actuate - in the end of the start-up the AX-Relay is resetted - when the AX-Relay is not resetted: Connection is cut.
The Game Over light is lit when the Q-Relay is pulling (and the switches on AX-Relay and P-Relay are closed).

tengle93 - when we are just looking at "why do the playfield lights (and the pop bumper lights) faulty turn off in Your pin" - I'd say: The H-Relay is not pulling or its switch is faulty or the wirings to this switch are faulty - Your playfield lights happen to light for a while - as long as the Q-Relay is pulling.
A little test (wear rubber gloves): Press the armature on H-Relay - the playfield-lights should light up --- press the armature on Q-Relay - the playfield-lights should light up.

Jet Spin is such a modern pin - it is a bit different wired than the pins I know --- I believe in Your Jet Spin just after starting a new game: The R-Relay and the H-Relay must pull-in and stay pulling.
In Europe we are ahead in time to the USA - some 6,7,8,9,10 (?) hours - this probably is my last post for today. Greetings Rolf

0Jet-Spin-Work-04-Save (resized).jpg

Post last edited 5 years ago: “added the JPG”

#8 5 years ago

TAE

tengle93

Pinside member

Right you are rolf_martin_062 and @currieddog, H is not pulling in. Manually do it and pin works, BUT it won't stay. So the connection to H is through Tilt Relay (T) switch (tested fine) and AX (switches test fine). So AX relay latch won't hold. I'm guessing this should be latched but when AX is manually engaged it latches, then runs the score motor and unlatches. Just need to trace that.

Thanks guys, making headway.

Getting closer.......I think.

#9 5 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member

Did you check that M/B sw. on U?

#10 5 years ago

TAE

tengle93

Pinside member

Quoted from currieddog:
Did you check that M/B sw. on U?

Yep, that's fine. Checking the path to U now, checked switches at M, N, O and R. All are ok.

Stumped now.

#11 5 years ago

TAE

tengle93

Pinside member

@rolf_martin_062 Checked all of the connections on the light patch you circled and they are all good.

I'm assuming that P1 could be any of the 6 switches on the player unit 1st Cam. They all checked out ok.

I've been down most of this path before, I think I got so frustrated I lost track of what I did.

Still stumped.

#12 5 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Hi tengle93
in post-7 I showed the lights --- here in this post I want only to look at R-Hold-Relay and H-Tilt-Hold-Relay. See the JPG - the R-Relay once made to pull-in the R-Relay stays pulling forever along "my blue lines" --- the H-Relay once made to pull-in the H-Relay stays pulling forever along "my blown lines" (when we are nice to the pin and do not beat it).

Please toggle-off the pin, lift the playfield, wear rubber gloves (Safety Reasons), toggle-on the pin then press the armature of the R-Relay and let go, take Your hand away - the R-Relay must stay pulling, does it in Your pin ? Then press the armature of the H-Relay and let go, take Your hand away - the H-Relay must stay pulling, does it in Your pin ? Then take the playfield down and put the ball into the Outhole between the flipper bats - start a game, the pin does the resetting and kicks out the ball and the "mysterious fault" shows up. Take the ball out of the shooter lane, lift the playfield --- questions: Is the R-Relay still pulling ? Is the H-Relay still pulling ?

IF (if, if) the R-Relay is still pulling and the H-Relay is not pulling: The wiring "my brown lines" is faulty - I guess the "my red star, my red star H Make and Brake switch" is faulty.
See in the JPG "my rosa / pink wiring" - Yes the H-Relay can pull a while feeded through "pink wiring" - but the wanted, needed, correct firing of the AX-RESET-Coil in the end of the reset cycle cuts the pink wiring as the AX-Switch is moved. Greetings Rolf

0Jet-Spin-Work-05 (resized).jpg

#13 5 years ago

TAE

tengle93

Pinside member

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:
IF (if, if) the R-Relay is still pulling and the H-Relay is not pulling: The wiring "my brown lines" is faulty - I guess the "my red star, my red star H Make and Brake switch" is faulty.

That's it @rolf_martin_062!! Make break switch on H was not fully touching. That explains why it would "buzz" a bit when I manually would engage it. Just had too much resistance to pull it in all the way. Makes total sense now.

Thanks a bunch guys, appreciate the help.

#14 5 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Hi tengle93
great - You could fix the faulty switch on H-Relay --- and now - does the pin fully functions ? Or what faults / problems does Your pin has by now ? Is the description You gave in post-1 still true ? Or - please give an updated description of faults. Greetings Rolf

#15 5 years ago

TAE

tengle93

Pinside member

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:
Hi tengle93
great - You could fix the faulty switch on H-Relay --- and now - does the pin fully functions ? Or what faults / problems does Your pin has by now ? Is the description You gave in post-1 still true ? Or - please give an updated description of faults. Greetings Rolf

So the pin starts up and plays well BUT does not advance to the next ball. So basically I can play forever.

Ball 1 lights but on second ball it goes out and nothing shows on backglass, again it keeps spitting out balls.

I can add all 4 players but only player one scores.

So basically the player unit isn't stepping after startup I assume. Checking it now.

#16 5 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,262

OP
Quoted from tengle93:
pin starts up and plays well BUT does not advance to the next ball

Does the Add Player Unit (P) relay activate when this happens?

#17 5 years ago

TAE

tengle93

Pinside member

Quoted from HowardR:
Does the Add Player Unit (P) relay activate when this happens?

Yes, it activates after ball one drains and trough switch is activated.

#18 5 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,262

If the Add Player Unit solenoid doesn't advance when the Add Player Unit (P) relay activates, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features

Pinball (resized).png

#19 5 years ago

TAE

tengle93

Pinside member

Quoted from HowardR:
If the Add Player Unit solenoid doesn't advance when the Add Player Unit (P) relay activates, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
[quoted image]

Just checked. Yep, the player unit is doing exactly what it should. Steps 4 times for one player, once for 4 player.

Howard, see you're in Boulder. My son is a Freshman at CU. Great place.

Thanks for the help.

Todd

#20 5 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member

Check out the BX, another fun latch relay.

#21 5 years ago

TAE

tengle93

Pinside member

Quoted from currieddog:
Check out the BX, another fun latch relay.

Here's what I can't seem to find on the schematic. Here' what I'm assuming, but I may be wrong.

The ball count is not advancing, but the player unit is working correctly, steps exactly what is should for the number of players. The question is, does the player unit control the ball count or is there another relay that does this through the player unit?

I checked BX and from what I can tell it is working correctly

I'm almost there....Thanks

#22 5 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,262

OP
Quoted from tengle93:
does the player unit control the ball count

Yes

Pinball (resized).png

#23 5 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from tengle93:
The ball count is not advancing, but the player unit is working correctly,

Cold solders, broken wires, "floating contacts," etc?

#24 5 years ago

TAE

tengle93

Pinside member

Quoted from HowardR:
Yes
[quoted image]

Yea, I saw that but wasn't sure if lights and actual ball count were the same thing. Guess I was just overthinking it.

It has to be a connection. I'll check into it later.

Thanks

#25 5 years ago

TAE

tengle93

Pinside member

It's fixed FINALLY! All four players 5 balls each, game over.

So this one took awhile but the problem is a bit curious.

So as I looked at the area in the schematic that @howardr posted I started looking at how all the lights traveled through the same path (Yellow wire, through Q, AX, P) SO if ball on worked they should all work.

As I fiddled around with the wiper disc on the player unit it shifted/rotated slightly, as the screws were not real tight (see yellow in picture) so since the wipers and disc don't have perfect "registration" (to use a printers term) they touched properly in ball one but when the wipers moved to ball 2 and beyond the wiper sat on the edge of the rivet but must have been a bit dirty so it didn't make good contact.

So I shifted the disc and used a flexstone along the whole bottom arc of the wiper disc and that did the trick.

Crazy!

Thanks for everyone's help @currieddog @rolf_martin_062 @howardr, just have some playfield cleaning to do.

IMG-4366 (resized).jpg

#26 5 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member