I am pretty sure that anyone who is paid up can ask for a full refund right now. I know I was offered that option recently when I called my distributor regarding my WOZ delivery. Sure, I would like my game sooner rather then later, but am willing to wait.

Those who have not asked for a refund are presumably satisfied/willing to stick around and wait for their game. Seems like there are at least 1000 of us....plus some willing to take our spots.

Jack has blown his dates building a game and company from scratch. I don't think he has denied it. Anybody that wants out can open the door. So what is the controversy?

*facepalm*

Who cares about all this. We are about to have a major competitor and second major pinball manufacturer. How great is that?

What?

Jack writes long emotion laden updates that are too long. He could cover enough ground in 1/5 of the words.

He should hire a PR person to write his updates. So what? We all kinda know that by now. Not news.

He seems like a good guy and I am glad he is doing what he is doing.

I have never said a word either way on the subject in the past but I have been in business for about 40 years and bottom line is - unless you have been in business you have no idea what it takes. To start a company like Jack has takes more balls than 99.9% of people would have in any economy and he did it at a very bad time. So I give him a lot of credit for that.

On top of that he is (or was) starting from the ground up and trying to build something outstanding - no easy task for anyone let alone a "little guy" without millions to spend.

So I think everyone should give him an "A" for effort.

Without Jack Stern would have never stepped up what they were building - there was no need to - when they were the only one building machines. So Jack had done something huge for the hobby even for people who will never buy a machine from him.

Could he have done some stuff differently - YES for sure. But anyone can be a Monday morning quarterback and find fault in something someone else has done or is doing. But bottom line is unless you have tried something like this and succeeded you have no right bashing Jack for what he has tried or for missing deadlines. And as far as I know there isn't anyone else that had started a pinball company lately.

So bottom line is - love or hate WOZ - Jack has done something huge for the hobby and I wish him well. I wish I had the funds to buy a WOZ but that just isn't in the picture for me. But I am sure thankful Stern has some competition and hopefully Jersey Jack is here for years to come.

Before bashing what he has done or is doing - think a little about what type of a task he is trying to do and give him some credit for that. Again - it isn't easy and I sure wouldn't want to be in his shoes.

Just my 2 cents on things.

Fine lines exist. For example, there is a fine line between having problems with communication and perceived promises, and "bashing everything" someone has done. Another fine line exists between the people that understand that nuance, and those that do not.

THIS!

Nothing is worse for the consumers of a product than a lack of competition for their business!

Even if the SternFanatics never in their lives drop a quarter into a JJP machine they will benefit from his success.

It must have been a lot easier to design and produce new pins in the days before forums.

I give Jack a whole lot of credit. What he is doing for pinball as a whole is great for all of us.
Now BURN BABY BURN...

Some terrorist just broke into my home and said if JJP didn't release WOZ like, right now, my lady gets it.

Still blows me away that JJP's first defiant, history changing leap into quality (never before seen in the modern pinball world) begins with WOZ theme. Other than that, proud of him for livin' the dream and carrying the torch. Very happy about having a new voice in the pinball manufacturing world.

I may buy WOZ when its released and the code is complete. Thats the easiest way to stay sane with these pins. I feel bad for the people that have had to wait years so far. If the game ends up being a hit there should be no problem getting a hold of one. I guess we will find out soon enough.

Not sure how that was supposed to come off but there is some funny stuff in there.

I ordered one really early on and I'm not the slightest bit upset. I agree with too-many-pins comments about manufacturing. It isn't easy. I am in sales for a company that puts recycling systems together. I have vendors that tell me one thing and I carefully pass along lead times but stuff happens: the wrong parts in a bill of materials come in, people call off sick, a purchase order doesn't get placed. When my equipment is delivered I want it to be right and it seems like Jack feels the same way. I think he's good people and we can always use some more of that.

Abacusman, Are you and your lady playing that terrorist-hostage sex game again?

Once they ship, and Jack is off the hot seat, I'd be curious for him to explain how he thought he was going to ship product summer of 2012. Not as an inquisition, but to pull back the curtain on how complicated this project got.

Am I the only one who found this quote to be the most interesting part?

"Keith sent a code update last night that in size is three times as
large a file as what is currently in the latest games out now!"

OK, I almost spit out my drink.

I'm sending my ex-wife over right now.......

I agree with almost everything you have mentioned. However, in the beginning, at TPF or MGC or the earlier Spooky webcast; He would say "I've been in this business for almost 35 years" and I started out repairing and operating games. Later selling and distributing games and even building (redemption) games so I know a little something about this. He also gave the disclaimer that he is not an engineer or programmer. But he did emphasize that with his prior experience he would get the best, highest quality, complete game out on time.

Does anyone recall him subtly talking down about the competition ?

The product will speak for itself once it's here. Totally worth the wait. Also, the Hobbit should go much smoother, as it will be their second game. I cant wait!

Actually this is the one I found the most interesting:

"Needs to be done right the first time, it's a $1,560,000 order so I
don't need mistakes."

That's one hefty bill to pay. Hopefully a good portion of that is already down, or JJP is sitting on a significant amount of cash.

That's definitely in there, and that thing about "Mustangs", which I guess means that is probably IS an upcoming pin from Stern.

You know I was going to blow past this post, but I decided to read it. As background, I'm on the WOZ order list. You guys who posted negative need to take your hands off the keyboard, step away, and actually use your brain for a second before knee jerking more negativity.

Are there some cliche's? Yes. Is Jack a good sales person? Yes. You know what, it doesn't matter. Here is the owner of his company taking the time to say - I'm sorry we missed dates, thank you for sticking with me, I care about delivering the right product, and here's why we're late - right or wrong it's been a learning journey. It was a long well thought out outpouring by an owner of a very aggressive venture nearing completion of their first product.

What is your expectation of the perfect pinball company or owner relationship with his customers? Rhetorical question as I know many of you will say just give me the game when you say it - all the rest I'd don't care about. Or, don't ask for payment until game is delivered. Fair enough - but this was a grass roots effort to build an alternative/competition to Stern. Mistakes were made, business model bugs some of us - but just entering the market has created a win fall for us collectors in choices. Will Jack make money? I sure as hell hope so - isn't that why you work or sell mods too?He deserves too. Do I like pin prices going up? Hell no. But we have choices versus none, we're included in the design process (when we never were), we know of titles being developed before a month to plan our budgeting or collection rotation. We now have choices people.

Here is an owner reaching out and some of you slap the hand away. Would you prefer going back to "You can have any color as long as it is black?" Remember that. We live in a "what have you done for me lately" world with all if us spoiled with instant gratification. Wait? I don't want to wait I want it now. Sounds like Veruca in Willy Wonka.

I'm bummed about paying up front with a long delay. The delay would be cool if I didn't have to fund it all this time. BUT, I knew what it takes to start a company and manufacture a product since that's what I do for a living. My expectations were tempered but I was an am behind this venture. I don't like this Hobbit prepay bs. And I won't until I see my WOZ. Again, mistakes. But, this guy has a passion, is committed to delivering a different product with promise of quality, and has jet setted to tons of pinball venues to give everyone a taste. I applaud him. Too many times negativity stops innovation. Walt Disney met failure twice but continued on before finding success because he had passion and desire to do something better. Instead of knocking down, try picking people up and applaud perseverance. It's what makes this country great. It's what I instill in my children.

Have a great weekend and sincerely, think on this one. Lay the pitch fork down until the game comes out.

This is the only way I buy new Sterns now. Everyone buys the LE's up like crazy that has to have the next thing, usually selling another new stern. The hype starts. IF it's at all good, people start buying the pro's up like crazy. People whine about the lack of complete code - duh, it's a stern, welcome to the game. IF it gets updated, and IF it's good, they go into a second, third release with premiums again, screwing over all the pro owners that may have waited for a premium if they new it was an option.

By this time, you know what you're getting, you're able to buy the upper level package, and the code is complete. This is the only way to buy sterns.

jack is the best thing to happen to Sterns. If it wasn't for Jack. Sterns would never have realized a lot of people are willing to pay double for NIB games.

... and that is the answer to the question.

And that folks is the nail in the coffin. I understand that there "was no need" from a monopoly/business pow, but this is what shits me the most. There was/is a need if you are to keep pinball alive.

Anyway, credit to JJP for all the effort they have put in, showing that innovation is there and can be used in todays games. No idea why they kept announcing release dates when they couldnt ship. Aside from that lets hope the Hobbit and future games get released on time.

I've always wondered - do you know the company is called "Stern" ...singular? ...or are you just doing a cute ironic thing based on how people called "NBA Jam" "NBA Jams"?

Nice post badbilly! I couldn't have said it better myself!

Isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!

I didn't get a harumph outta you!...you better watch your ass!

Nice speech Eric.

LTG : )

Reposted from another thread:

(1) Jack knows what he's doing. The hardware has universally been considered a cut above. There is absolutely no reason to think the software won't eventually be just as brilliant. Jack's talent pool are PROVEN pinball designers and programmers.

(2) Remember they're not just building a single design. They're building an entire company from the ground up. Distribution network, parts suppliers, assembly line design, inventories, circuit board designs, operating system creation. That's just off the top of my head. That's ALL before designing a single thing SPECIFICALLY for WOZ - not a ramp, not a bolt, not even a backglass sketch. And they're trying to build in ways no one has ever done before, like the LCD. (Cough, cough...or stereo sound), so they're inventing the wheel in a lot of ways.

Frankly, I'm amazed they are as far as they've come. Even to the point of securing a big time license for JJP #2, further illustrating that they're in it for the long haul. That they won't produce a shoddy pin #1 because they need to secure a good reputation because they already have sunk in money for the Hobbit.

(3) I didn't so much buy a deadline, but bought a chance to own a Very Special Pin, filled with things never done before. I am COMPLETELY okay with waiting longer for the sake of perfecting all the innovation WOZ represents. Would rather wait a little longer, heck a LOT longer, for a special pin done right but late, rather than have a mediocre sameoldsameold pin on time. I recognize that opinion isn't universal, but that was the mindset I went into with this purchase: something special, but inherently full of unknowns with production timeline as a result. So no surprises, no worries.

I want JJP to spend their resources on making the pin better, not faster.

(4) Ask yourself honestly: is the state of pinball HEALTHIER or LESS HEALTHY since JJP was formed? I think pretty clearly the answer is HEALTHIER, even if you don't own/intend to own a JJP.

This ^.

Kudos to the original poster of that particular thread.

Most of the people that complain have never attempted to creat a anything resembling something of the magnitude the Jack has. He wanted to change the industry, quality , innovation , and attract new faces to the to the game. In 100% of the posts of people who have seen WOZ , they agree about quality and innovation. Everywhere that the prototype pins have been placed, the owners have stated that WOZ is attracting 3-5 times the audience that their other pins attract. it's a fact that over the last 8 years Stern pins have increased substantially in price, but the quality of their materials is pathetic . I own 15 newer sterns with the last being Hulk. I had the opportunity to play Hulk , beside WOZ , before mine arrived . Hulk is fun to play , but does not begin to compare to the superior product materials of WOZ. I have WOZ hopefully arriving in the next 2 months , and I am glad that Jack is concerned about shipping a complete game.

Kudos to Jack for attempting to make a quality product that will change the industry,if not already.
Competition in manufacturing will only make pinballs better.
It is a small price to pay for a piece of history.
Give the guy a break !

Yep, and I'm really glad that the extra competition has resulted in lower pin prices across the board.

BAZINGA!!!!

I agree with most of your post except this. Just because I have not created "something of this magnitude" does not mean that we don't have an inkling of what it would take.

Put it this way, I have watched "Tilt: The Battle to Save Pinball" so I have some perspective of what adding a monitor to a PIN entails (more programmers more time, more money).

Jack stated he hadn't even seen this documentary until 1-1.5 years in to the WoZ design, and if he had seen this movie beforehand... if I recall correctly he suggested he might have made different choices.

Much of what Jack has said and done has been based on a mixture of naivete and just plain old brass balls... I am glad he is getting close to shipping his pin so we can all start fighting over how awesome or terrible the hobbit will be .

But that cuts both ways.

The increase in prices is because of increase in DEMAND. More people are getting into pins, so the producers (wow... "producerS"... PLURAL. Groovy.) can demand higher prices. So the hobby is EXPANDING.

Show me a hobby where the cost of collecting is dropping and I'll show you a hobby that is circling the drain.

And the innovation that is finally arriving, like LCD use both in backglass and on playfield, like multicolored LEDs, like more sophisticated board design, USB driven code updates, etc. and that costs money. The only reason manufacturers are willing to put that money in is because they expect a return on it for creating pins that do something up to the 21st century level of tech.

That simply wasn't happening when Stern was the only game in town. Sure, they owned the whole market, the whole pie... But it was a BORING pie, and it WAS shrinking. That's why prices were declining.

So, yeah, our hobby getting more popular and limited production is being divided among more fans. That's rough on our individual wallets. But a sign that thngs are GREAT for the hobby as a whole.

Pinball has been unambiguously growing since JJP in popularity.

It means buying more costs more, but what you own is worth more, too. That parts are going to be in supply. That innovation from modders AND manufactureres will continue the explosion we've been lucky enough to be experiencing of late.

All good stuff for EVERYONE. All since JJP.

Look at all the cool choices we have in pinball coming this year!...I, for one, am excited!
#55

This is exactly what I was thinking. I thought competition brings lower prices? What happened to that?

The competition is not there yet. Wait till JJP 3rd machine and Skit-B's 2nd ...

Hey, Thank you for your letter. There will always be haters for all kinds of reasons. Take your time and we the true WOZ (JJP) believers will keep our heads up. Forget the people who have nothing better to do than knock others. Maybe one day they will find happiness is something or maybe not. I am ok with the wait even though sometimes I get frustrated. It just a pinball machine and life is to short to hate people and bash everything because of a post. Thank you for your time and your letter, it hit home for me if nothing else.

Happy Easter Smack Jack around for me....

I was going through some old paperwork and found this illustration with my WOZ preorder information. Guess I haven't been taking the recommended dose each day...

// Error: Image 86594 not found //

No, it doesn't cut both ways at all unless you believe that JJP's mere existence has resulted in higher demand for *other* pins. Apparently that's what you think, but I don't buy that at all.

That demand was already there. That's largely the reason that JJP can even exist in the first place...demand for pins.

Further proof that the demand was already there is the mere fact that pin prices have continued to go up, even though there are supposedly over 1000 people with a minimum of $6500.00 tied up in a (still undelivered) pin, thereby taking a big chunk of change out of the market. In other words, people who have money tied up in WOZ can't use that money to buy another pin, which in theory would drive prices up even more.

Not true at all. Competition on boilerplate products brings prices down. Not luxury items.

When Audi stepped up their game in the luxury market 7 years or so ago to bring it into the MB/BMW arena (executive sedans) that brought prices up.. Way up. Not down..