A big difference between XMEN and WOZ is that WOZ has a compilation of extraordinary playfield mechanisms and quality and XMEN has fairly ordinary playfield mechanisms and quality (i.e. there is much more value in the physical/tangible WOZ game even with half-ass code).
Also, before it is said, no I am not relating any of this to fun factor.

Why should "everyone" be allowed to buy a limited edition of a pinball machine? Even more so in this case since the only differences are in the trim?

It's basically trading some risk for some added payoff down the line. What people seem to (unrealistically) want in these scenarios is the LE badge without the LE risk.

If you say so. But none of that had anything to do with the point/analogy that I was making.

We actually still don't know the full LE differences on the WOZ to be honest. Yes, the cabinet hardware is powder coated (as well as the wireforms on the playfield for that matter), and the apron certificate is unique, and we're now hearing the topper on the LE is unique too. But there may very well be more surprises that are LE specific (certainly some goodies in the goodie bag if nothing else.)

Oh, and there was talk at one time that they were looking to do something on the LCD to identify the LE's as well (no biggy but we'll see.)

The point I was making is, why does there need to be an implied "risk" to buy any manufactured product? If having a row of LE machines is helping someone sleep at night and feel better about themselves, more power to them.

Because that risk also means reward for those who dare, and now they're the few and the proud. I know a few Tron LE owners, and are they glad they took the plunge? You better believe it. You think anyone who risked getting in on Big Bang Bar is saying "why oh why can't everyone have one"? No way.

The "people with too much money rocking themselves to sleep with their A-list pinball collections" sentiment gets replayed over and over in any thread about LEs. Frankly it looks more like sour grapes to me.

I agree completely. I think I will enjoy installing updates and having to learn new strategy each time. Should be fun.

Contrary to popular belief, this simply wasn't the case. If you were getting pins back in the day, it was amazing how many came off route with old, horrible code on it that was worse than what Stern games ship with today in general. NGG has a software bug in it to this day. DESW (and yeah, I know, Data East is Stern...) had never got some stuff implemented until just recently that was in the original ROM. When I got my DM originally, the ROMs in it were so old that it had only a skeleton of a ruleset... and it had been in someone's basement like that for about 10 years (it was HORRIBLE).

And back then, there was really no chance to even update your pins code easily. It was an expensive undertaking.

Besides that, the runs were much longer, so an early DM with bad code on it may have only shipped on the first say 200 machines before they updated it for the next 9000 (or whatever).

Now, when collectors trade the games, it looks like all of the B/W games are fully updated and must have been like that forever. It was with some, but definitely not with all. Which seems to be exactly where we are today, where some games ship basically complete, and others need overhauls.

I heard Spooky Pinball will have even better & more affordable cardboard boxes.

It's funny to watch the WOZ owners already turn into apologists for JJP shipping a pin with unfinished code. Somehow this is "different" than when Stern does it, because WOZ is "better" and gives you "more value".

Classic.

I had to update both my Black knight and STTNG with newer roms to get the latest code after I got them.

Whatever dude. I was one of the 1st to receive Avengers LE. Buying that one while also knowing how upset XMEN and TF buyers have been about unfinished code definitely does not make me an apologist. What do you own? I don't see you listing any collection at all.

It's funny to watch new people sign up for accounts with zero credibility spewing negative commentary.

He has no collection listed because he just made up that ID 30 minutes ago simply for the sake of throwing out a baseless (and childish) insult that he was too much of a wuss to post under his regular name.
Classic.

Robin should include the IP address of every post made. Ill write a script to correlate uniqueness. Watch how many folks are behind these new accounts.

Can one of the mods please check to see if this guy has multiple accounts. He has only made a few posts that were trolling at best.

Same here got my Hulk LE as soon as Trent got them from Chicago on Dec 19 Had many pinsiders come play it and WOZ side by side. I try to do good things for the hobby and run a business too. I like the new Xmen code hope TF is better and I still 100 percent believe WOZ will be great!

I don't agree with what he said. But he's been a member longer than you.

They're not new, believe me.

Exactly.
Also, all I want to do is enjoy pinball and am not concerned with which company makes the games as long as they turn out to be fun.
I hope JJP, Stern, SkitB, Heighway, Spooky, etc. are all successful at making fun and unique games where everyone of us can find some games that we enjoy. Heck, I also hope that the Bally/Williams games continue to have strong demand and everyone takes care of their games and even more are refurbished. The more the merrier.

One other note, the people that are constantly bashing any particular pinball company to me don't really love pinball because they certainly are not helping them to be successful by the manner that they go about the bad mouthing.

So I need to create a whole bunch of fake accounts now so when I feel the urge to call you a moron I can just pull one out? It's the create date that matters, huh?

No. Feel free to call me a moron to my face.

Edit. I think my wording was poor here. I meant he didn't have to hide behind a fake account to call me a moron. I personally don't care. It's just the internets.

Its a normal thing to do if you want or need to update code. My NIB FG was updated , my NIB WOF was updated ( code will likely never be complete), my WPT was updated as well. The only problem was the boot loaders are / were picky about flash memory sticks. Most if not all of my Williams games have been updated (myself) by burning the "best" ROM image available for the title I own.

Not long ago someone made a mod to some Williams ROM's for anti ghosting and LED's. If you desire that feature then update the game code. If you like profanity ROM's by all means get some.

The key difference is people are pointing out JJP made a statement about NOT shipping games with incomplete game code, I never heard of Stern ever making a promise like it. If that was JJP's genuine intent or just a marketing talking point its being kicked around now by people on both sides and the JJP supporters take offence to calling it out a possible promise broken. The delay in getting the games out has not helped either.

Since nothing has happened yet its hard to judge anything except the late delivery and the rest remains to be seen objectively, when it happens or does not happen.

This thread was well on it's way to being one of the funniest ever. Now it has devolved into a dick measuring contest. So sad...

yup

download.jpg

I think maybe my post above was misunderstood. I'm really not the tough guy type.

Notice the timing of the Stern code release for XMEN and Transformers?

Ha ha. I thought that too. Glad somebody's nudging them in the right direction.

I must be missing something. You mean the code release that was supposed to be out by Christmas, which was finally released today? Yeah, Stern is genius for holding out and pissing off those owners and waiting until *now* to really steal JJP's thunder!

Well they did release it so quickly they didn't even have the read me file written. I think it was less grand strategy and more "Hey, look at us too." Could be coincidence though.

That's quickly? They had a year to write the changelog

V1.8 - March 14, 2013
=======================

- notes to follow in a few days, we wanted to get this update out as soon as possible.

V1.5 - March 20, 2012
=======================

Not quickly as in from the last update. Quickly as in "let's get this out now not next week."

I still don't get it.

What do you mean "look at us too"? What is there to look at regarding WOZ? A box? Yeah, Stern really had to nip that in the bud!

Are you questioning the power of the box? It's the biggest thing to happen to pinside in a month.

I don't know. Maybe I didn't get enough sleep last night. Seems my posts aren't making sense tonight.

JJP vs Stern may be creating better pins but not pinheads. The OP was just sharing a pic that any buyer of WOZ would appreciate seeing, nothing more. I'm going back to the civility of RGP.

Say what you want but a simple picture of the box has generated nearly 300 posts in 24 hours.

I can't imagine Stern feeling like they need to compete with every little JJP milestone or moment. JJP is the one that needs to play "catch up" and earn their credibility (which I think they'll do.) But I like having big Stern announcements/days and I like having a new company in the picture too. I hope they don't each feel like they're constantly competing for the bigger announcement at any given moment/event. I'll chalk the code release up to just coincidence.

The OP changed his title and post.

He had implied that WOZ was shipping and everyone went crazy.

In a traditional war of the star up company vs. the entrenched encumbant company, the entrenched encumbant company typically just completly ignors the start up until the start up starts taking away market substantial market share . . . until that time the entrenched encumbant actually feeds off the news media the other is generating.

Check out the classic WWF vs. WCW wars and how they viewed each other. There are a couple interesting documentaries on the matter and they changes places more than once. Interesting stuff.

In short, I agree with what Rob is saying.

Its a jack in the box

ok, i want one, a box that is!

when is the next batch?
when do i send my first paiement and how many?
can i get on the pre order list?
will it come out this year?

man, that blue box next to my red box will look awesome!

Simply not true.

Looking at his post after he edited it, I can see why you might think that now though...but even that is a stretch, since he is a vendor trying to sell us WOZ, and he still says as much in his original post.

"Contact us for pricing, details, etc".

That doesn't sound like someone just sharing a pic that any buyer of WOZ would appreciate seeing, and "nothing more". I think it is safe to say that there was just a *tad* more motivation to it than that.

Dude! If there is one thing that I would *never* do, it's question the power of the "box"!

Yes, because the thread has mostly evolved into a joke...about a box. See above.

In his defense. It is one hell of a box.

Yes.. lets stick to the Box jokes can we?

Gary has a "running start", you're joking right. I would say with all the pins Gary has produced gives more than a running start. I would say he has traveled around the world ten times. JJP has not even shipped its first pinball...they have just started to crawl.

Don't think I'm against JJP. I'm pretty sure I will own a JJP pin in the next couple years or maybe less. I want JJP to thrive and do well. But Gary has more then a little head start, producing 2-3 pins/year for years.

I missed this previously. When the heck did Jack EVER "make it pretty clear he is going up against Gary"?? Quite to the contrary, Jack has always asked people to stop any negativity toward Gary and/or Stern (both on the WOZ forum and at public events) AND that he wishes nothing but the best for Stern and that they sell a million more games. He has stated this time and time again.

And it's Jack's company so I guess he can go with whatever business model he believes will be the most successful. I think he has more experience in this industry than the overwhelming majority of folks on here.

Its on video dude

Jack slammed Stern in several ways & then promised a preorder with WOZ meant complete code, no production delays & a delivery date of Dec 2011. DOGH!

No matter though, both parties piss me off & charge more than I want to pay

Great .. please show me the video dude. I'd like to hear the "slams" (where he specifically referenced Stern). Because I'm thinking it must also be on more than a dozen videos of Jack giving speeches at pinball shows stating he wishes nothing but the best for Stern and that they sell a million more games. I guess this original "slam" cancels out everything else he ever said after that.

Quoting the recent pre-payment scheme: First payment due NOW!

So wrong. So very very wrong.