(Topic ID: 112405)

Jersey Jack - Pat Lawlor untitled game


By dirtbag66

5 years ago



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  • 345 posts
  • 138 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by MrBally
  • Topic is favorited by 8 Pinsiders

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    There are 345 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 7.
    #251 4 years ago
    Quoted from juanton:

    Lots of people say this, but I'm not sure it's true. We know the second game is TH, but people are still buying WOZ. If they revealed #3 tomorrow I don't think we would bail on TH. We would just have to make room for one more.

    A pinball company should never worry that one game is cannibalizing the other. More titles on the production line gives customers more choices and that results in more games sold. That's why Stern always has 4 games or so in production at once. I'm sure Jack's goal is to do the same.

    #252 4 years ago
    Quoted from juanton:

    Lots of people say this, but I'm not sure it's true. We know the second game is TH, but people are still buying WOZ. If they revealed #3 tomorrow I don't think we would bail on TH. We would just have to make room for one more.

    Done right, another successful pin from JJP should start to cannibalize STERNS business, not their own.

    #253 4 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    A pinball company should never worry that one game is cannibalizing the other.

    It depends on how big "the pie" is. If the pie is finite, then the slices do take away from each other.

    The "pie" for $8500+ pinballs is not too big, a lot smaller than Pro pricing. I would suspect timing of releases to maximize sales of each would be important.

    And definitely you would want to be selling the game you have for sale TODAY, and not be announcing the next title and have people sit on their money waiting for it and skipping on today's game. That is the risk.

    #254 4 years ago
    Quoted from frolic:

    It depends on how big "the pie" is. If the pie is finite, then the slices do take away from each other.
    The "pie" for $8500+ pinballs is not too big, a lot smaller than Pro pricing. I would suspect timing of releases to maximize sales of each would be important.
    And definitely you would want to be selling the game you have for sale TODAY, and not be announcing the next title and have people sit on their money waiting for it and skipping on today's game. That is the risk.

    Their goal isn't to sell all games to one buyer. Sales are sales. They don't want to wait till sales trickle until boosting sales w/ the next game...they want constant sales, constant production.

    Guy who likes Hobbit buys Hobbit
    Guy who likes original themed Lawlor games buys Lawlor game
    Guy who likes WOZ buys WOZ.

    Ops makes money off WOZ...ops buy other 2.

    Occasionally some crazy pinball collector buys all 3.

    #255 4 years ago

    One thing that JJP has has received a lot of criticism for is the layout of their first two games. There have been many comments about the lack of flow on WOZ, the absence of shots which 'feel good' and the lack of meaningful shots for the upper flipper on both games. They have had to work very hard to overcome this and, in the case of The Hobbit, even changed the layout of the game at a very late stage. In some ways they have had to work extra hard on code and the LCD display to make up for this perceived shortcoming.

    It will be very interesting to see what they can produce with Pat Lawlor working on the layout of the third game. As one of the masters of playfield layout design, it is unlikely that they will have the same handicap this time. Lawlor is great at playfield geometry, linking shots and creating great shots for upper playfield flippers. Now combine that with the other advances JJP has made and the length of time Lawlor has had to work on this new game (1 1/2 years and counting) and the outlook for the third JJP machine starts to look very good indeed.

    #256 4 years ago
    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    You mean "knockers" plural I presume. A single knocker would be disturbing.

    What about more that 2, like in Total Recall?

    #257 4 years ago
    Quoted from pindome:

    No I have not played it yet, hoping that it makes it to the west coast soon. I am excited by the video I have seen. I have been a customer of Jacks and Pinball Sales for years and years that is the only reason I paid in full on almost day one for WOZ.
    I want JJP to be with us forever they are pushing the envelope in creative and innovative pinball games and are dragging the competition with them. In my opinion there is very little financial room for JJP to roll out a bad game this early in life of the company.
    Measure twice cut once - Jack don't "F" this up, us game buyers really need you in the game!

    I have played it 7 times. It's fantastic. I love the flow, shots, etc... If JJP keeps this type of quality up in pinball he is going to be the man to beat. Not STERN, not REMAKES or any other company that comes along. JMO.

    #258 4 years ago
    Quoted from pindome:

    No I have not played it yet, hoping that it makes it to the west coast soon.

    It was just announced JJP will be speaking in Tacoma in June. I can't imagine they'd show up without a Hobbit.

    I'm just trying to decide if I'm buying a three day pass, or waiting for the schedule of presentations to buy the right single day.

    #259 4 years ago
    Quoted from lowepg:

    Done right, another successful pin from JJP should start to cannibalize STERNS business, not their own.

    I don't know about that ? JJP games are getting expensive closing in on $9k ,not everybody wants a wide body ,and I still like to look at some artwork. The new Kiss premium at $6k ? Three grand is a big jump !

    #260 4 years ago
    Quoted from whitey:

    I don't know about that ? JJP games are getting expensive closing in on $9k ,not everybody wants a wide body ,and I still like to look at some artwork. The new Kiss premium at $6k ? Three grand is a big jump !

    Yes, 3 grand IS a big jump. But it's worth it to some people. I've played my WOZ about 7 months now and nothing else 'cause that's the ONLY game I have playable. Then I stopped in Flippers (Grandy NC) to see what's new. There were some nice looking games but everything else really felt somewhat cheesy - I guess it was the flipper feel more than anything. I used to brag about the Bally/Williams games but even they felt cheap after the JJP game. If you value a quality feel and look to a game and can pony up the $3,000 then go for it. If not I still had a blast on AC/DC and KISS should be good as good or better. As for me it's JJP #3 next.

    #261 4 years ago
    Quoted from lowepg:

    I LOVE zero info on #3.
    I'm really hoping Jack can deliver on announcing it once it's ready to go.
    Percent example is TH. I wish I'd never read a THING about it before last week...

    The last thing JJP needs is a thread that lives on for two years like the WOZ and TH threads. No news is the way to go the Kiss thread will be nearly dead in ninety days.

    #262 4 years ago
    Quoted from 27dnast:

    There's no way Pat Lawlor is going to stand around and have the pinball community tell him what to change on his pin. Almost guaranteed that they will reveal a final physical product.

    #263 4 years ago

    Remakes aren't new games, so they should not be compared.

    #264 4 years ago
    Quoted from wtatumjr:

    Yes, 3 grand IS a big jump. But it's worth it to some people. I've played my WOZ about 7 months now and nothing else 'cause that's the ONLY game I have playable. Then I stopped in Flippers (Grandy NC) to see what's new. There were some nice looking games but everything else really felt somewhat cheesy - I guess it was the flipper feel more than anything. I used to brag about the Bally/Williams games but even they felt cheap after the JJP game. If you value a quality feel and look to a game and can pony up the $3,000 then go for it. If not I still had a blast on AC/DC and KISS should be good as good or better. As for me it's JJP #3 next.

    Don't get me wrong ! I love my WOZ and looking forward to Pats next pin and yes the build quality is exceptional

    #265 4 years ago

    Finally got to play WOZ and see The Hobbit.
    Now I know what the excitement is about.
    I really like WOZ, I can see how much fun it would be at home - just not sure about forking over that much cash.

    #266 4 years ago

    I hope Pats game is another Masterpiece! But even Mercedes builds a lemon I just hope when it's announced its ready to buy !

    #267 4 years ago
    Quoted from whitey:

    I hope Pats game is another Masterpiece! But even Mercedes builds a lemon

    Yes, Mercedes can build a lemon.... but lets be honest, so can (and has) Pat.

    It's been nearly 2 decades since his last "masterpiece" and in the meantime, he's designed some real duds...

    CSI?
    Monopoly?
    Nascar?

    Now, I'm a MASSIVE Lawlor fan from the B/W days (owned nearly everyone of them), and I WANT to believe all those shitty games were Sterns fault, not his. However, lets be honest, he has a little something to prove at this point.

    Having said that, I cant imagine a better setup for the "Return of the King" than working at JJP with a free hand, an exciting new platform and no licensing committee breathing down his neck.

    I'm wickedly excited to see what he builds....

    #268 4 years ago

    Don't forget FG and RBION both good Stern games.

    #269 4 years ago
    Quoted from lowepg:

    Yes, Mercedes can build a lemon.... but lets be honest, so can (and has) Pat.
    It's been nearly 2 decades since his last "masterpiece" and in the meantime, he's designed some real duds...
    CSI?
    Monopoly?
    Nascar?
    Now, I'm a MASSIVE Lawlor fan from the B/W days (owned nearly everyone of them), and I WANT to believe all those shitty games were Sterns fault, not his. However, lets be honest, he has a little something to prove at this point.
    Having said that, I cant imagine a better setup for the "Return of the King" than working at JJP with a free hand, an exciting new platform and no licensing committee breathing down his neck.
    I'm wickedly excited to see what he builds....

    Those games you listed aren't that shitty, really....if you just look at them from a design perspective. They're all totally unique playfield designs, shoot well, and he found creative ways to use the license. Art, code, budget constraints - all Stern-isms.

    #270 4 years ago

    I'm not so sure a complete hush-hush is a good thing. I mean, look at all of the buzz that was surrounding KISS for the last year or so. When insiders leak information, it creates discussion and speculation in the community. I mean, we've known there will be a new Lawlor pin for quite some time now, but this thread is miniscule compared to some of the other speculation threads. Picture this: you're saving up to buy a new pin, Stern releases something you're excited about, you buy it, JJP announces this amazing new Lawlor pin and now you don't have the money because you just blew it on the latest Stern. Not many people have thousands of dollars they can just whip out of their wallets as soon as a new game is announced. These are luxury items most people have to save in order to have. This requires financial planning. If you know this pin is coming and then Stern releases something you can feel comfortable passing because you know there's something better being released in the future.

    $0.02

    #271 4 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Those games you listed aren't that shitty, really....if you just look at them from a design perspective. They're all totally unique playfield designs, shoot well, and he found creative ways to use the license. Art, code, budget constraints - all Stern-isms.

    I completely agree. I love NASCAR. One of Lawlor's best flowing pins.

    #272 4 years ago
    Quoted from whitey:

    I don't know about that ? JJP games are getting expensive closing in on $9k ,not everybody wants a wide body ,and I still like to look at some artwork. The new Kiss premium at $6k ? Three grand is a big jump !

    I won't pay $9k for a pin. Any pin, from anyone. I was really excited about TBL, but it's just too much money. I can justify $6k, with wiggle room to creep towards $7k. But that's really pushing it. They're just games, there's only so much money I can feel right about spending on one.

    I know JJP has fans that are happy to pay that, but I do wish they had a lower entry point. What's the standard Hobbit going for now? It's $8k right? Is that what people are really paying distributors? If you don't pre-order (never going to do that) what's the street price like?

    #273 4 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Their goal isn't to sell all games to one buyer. Sales are sales. They don't want to wait till sales trickle until boosting sales w/ the next game...they want constant sales, constant production.
    Guy who likes Hobbit buys Hobbit
    Guy who likes original themed Lawlor games buys Lawlor game
    Guy who likes WOZ buys WOZ.
    Ops makes money off WOZ...ops buy other 2.
    Occasionally some crazy pinball collector buys all 3.

    What about the guy who likes all of them but cannot afford all of them because they came out all at once.

    #274 4 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    I won't pay $9k for a pin. Any pin, from anyone. I was really excited about TBL, but it's just too much money. I can justify $6k, with wiggle room to creep towards $7k. But that's really pushing it. They're just games, there's only so much money I can feel right about spending on one.
    I know JJP has fans that are happy to pay that, but I do wish they had a lower entry point. What's the standard Hobbit going for now? It's $8k right? Is that what people are really paying distributors? If you don't pre-order (never going to do that) what's the street price like?

    Sterns are up there too for the full pull Aurich. The thing is, and I have both, there is no denying (no matter how many stern lovers are out there) Woz and what seems to be on Hobbit is just far superior in the build quality. I'm not saying which is more fun hell I like Sopranos for shits and giggles however there will always be a market for "Mercedes Benz" no matter how boring the model may be. If these are out of your price range then I get it theres plenty of cheaper ones that will still get you from A to B

    0

    -8
    #275 4 years ago
    Quoted from whitey:

    I hope Pats game is another Masterpiece! But even Mercedes builds a lemon I just hope when it's announced its ready to buy !

    Pat hasn't designed a great game in 20 years.

    #276 4 years ago
    Quoted from wcbrandes:

    Sterns are up there too for the full pull Aurich.

    I don't really dig the Stern LE model either. I do own a METLE, but I bought it used. And it's the most expensive game I've purchased. I think I'd like to keep it that way, but I guess we'll see. I'm a bit of a boiling frog, the price I'm willing to pay seems to creep up ...

    If $8k is the MSRP for Hobbit and the street price is really $7k that would be different, but I don't want to ask a distributor since I'm not serious about buying. Anyone know if that's the case?

    #277 4 years ago

    Its not the case it is 7500 if lucky, and they were in from the beginning. Like I said everyone has a limit what they are willing to pay for fun. Perfect analogy is the Auto industry. I choose a Bentley over a Honda. Does the Bentley get me there any quicker.....depends. Some would argue a good old V 12 will obviously get you there faster however not when you have to stop at every other Gas station on the way!

    #278 4 years ago
    Quoted from zr11990:

    What about the guy who likes all of them but cannot afford all of them because they came out all at once.

    You're one person. They can't run a business based on whether you can buy all games in production. You buy the one you want. A sale is a sale. Someone else buys another title. A sale is a sale.

    Can everyone afford all the Stern games in production right now? Doesn't matter - it's a portfolio of product. More product, more choice, more sales.

    #279 4 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Pat hasn't designed a great game in 20 years.

    Wrong. Family Guy, 2007. A great game just a mere 8 years ago. He's still got it.

    10
    #280 4 years ago
    Quoted from solarvalue:

    There have been many comments about the lack of flow on WOZ, the absence of shots which 'feel good' and the lack of meaningful shots for the upper flipper on both games.

    Come now. You do realize that Pinside represents a very small slice of players/collectors and that, of those, the folks writing this kind of dribble have probably played WOZ a few times at a location or show under conditions that are probably less than desirable.

    Park yourself in front of WOZ in a home environment, dial it in...dim the lights, crank the sound, start learning the rules... and you'll come to find that WOZ is a great machine that does have incredibly satisfying shots.

    Not everyone has to like WOZ. Different strokes for different folks. But you can start painting with broad strokes, painting a picture that says WOZ is a design disaster. That's ridiculous.

    #281 4 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Those games you listed aren't that shitty, really....

    Fair enough.... beauty is certainly in the eye of ther beholder.

    I'll amend my comment to say he hasn't produced a (generally accepted) "masterpiece" in 20 years....

    #282 4 years ago

    Did he EVER produce a great game for Stern? Not in my opinion. Sorry RH I don't care for the FG pin and yes I have played it, a lot, because I wanted to like it.

    #283 4 years ago
    Quoted from wcbrandes:

    Its not the case it is 7500 if lucky, and they were in from the beginning.

    So sounds like $8k is the street price then? I mean, if it was a title I wanted badly enough I could probably justify it. Sell a game, pay the extra difference. But it's just rough, not even the "can I afford it?" question, because I can if it's important enough to me, but just the idea that games are that much.

    Anyways, not bashing or anything, is what it is. I just think that there's a limit to the audience that can or will pay that much. I wouldn't want JJP to start stripping down machines or anything, that's not what they're going for. But it would be cool if you could buy a game for $7k instead. WOZ sold for $6500 at one point, maybe it's possible in the future again.

    #284 4 years ago
    Quoted from zr11990:

    Did he EVER produce a great game for Stern? Not in my opinion.

    RBION in mine. I like some of his Stern games, but that one is a great.

    #285 4 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    RBION in mine. I like some of his Stern games, but that one is a great.

    Forgot about that one. It was pretty good. I kindof lost interest in mine when the scoop broke and the ball shot straight up and broke the glass, ON THE THIRD GAME. Stern wouldn't sell me a scoop and I had to pay two hunnet for one.

    #286 4 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    WOZ sold for $6500 at one point, maybe it's possible in the future again.

    A NIB WOZ at 6500 is probably a thing of the past - When I first saw and played it I was worried if JJP was actually making any profit at all at that price. I love Stern's - but the WOZ Pin is loaded in computer hardware and software, a wide body, LEDs, multiple playfields, LCD, and other quality components. Heck if you were early in on the LE you also got a shaker and invisiglass too

    #287 4 years ago
    Quoted from zr11990:

    Forgot about that one. It was pretty good. I kindof lost interest in mine when the scoop broke and the ball shot straight up and broke the glass, ON THE THIRD GAME. Stern wouldn't sell me a scoop and I had to pay two hunnet for one.

    damn, no one is expecting that!

    #288 4 years ago
    Quoted from zr11990:

    Did he EVER produce a great game for Stern?

    Yes, Family Guy.

    Quoted from zr11990:

    Not in my opinion.

    Well, that's just like...your opinion, man.

    Quoted from zr11990:

    Sorry RH I don't care for the FG pin and yes I have played it, a lot, because I wanted to like it.

    Oh well...no accounting for taste. The game's been out long enough for its reputation to be cemented - and the reviews are great. Casual and expert players alike have given it high marks for its design, rules (Keefer!), and theme integration. To this day I still feel like it's one of the best built Sterns (I've had almost zero issues with it over the years) and one of their most "Williamsy" feeling games.

    #289 4 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Those games you listed aren't that shitty, really....if you just look at them from a design perspective. They're all totally unique playfield designs, shoot well, and he found creative ways to use the license. Art, code, budget constraints - all Stern-isms.

    Agree. I love the layout on NASCAR. Best positioned and most satisfying drops on any Stern I've played. The rest of the package just doesn't live up to the design potential.

    Would love to see NASCAR rethemed as some kind of quantum theory game. The race track would make a great particle accelerator!

    Expecting some magic from Pat this next game!

    #290 4 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Wrong. Family Guy, 2007. A great game just a mere 8 years ago. He's still got it.

    I know TZ, Wwind, FH, and TAF. I've owned TZ, Wwind, FH, and TAF. TZ, Wwind, FH, and TAF are all favorite games of mine.

    Senator, Family guy is no TZ, Wwind, FH, and TAF.

    #291 4 years ago
    Quoted from Goronic:

    A NIB WOZ at 6500 is probably a thing of the past - When I first saw and played it I was worried if JJP was actually making any profit at all at that price. I love Stern's - but the WOZ Pin is loaded in computer hardware and software, a wide body, LEDs, multiple playfields, LCD, and other quality components. Heck if you were early in on the LE you also got a shaker and invisiglass too

    Is what it is. I'm just not a customer for $9k pins.

    That said, if Pat's game is incredible could I talk myself into $8k? Never say never. But that's just a tough psychological barrier for me personally. There's a lot of awesome games out there for a lot less than that.

    20
    #292 4 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Pat hasn't designed a great game in 20 years.

    Pat hasn't been turned loose in 20 years either.

    LTG : )

    #293 4 years ago

    I just hope he gets a good balance betwixed not enough/too much. Sure he can handle it though.

    #294 4 years ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    Pat hasn't been turned loose in 20 years either.
    LTG : )

    Agreed. No pressure on Pat though - all that's on the line is the future of JJP.

    #295 4 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Pat hasn't designed a great game in 20 years.

    I'd ALMOST give that to you, but SC was '96 nineteen years. Gofers is pretty damn good too, despite the buggy-ass software.

    #296 4 years ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    Pat hasn't been turned loose in 20 years either.
    LTG : )

    This is the thing that has me excited the most. I am hoping for a completely JAMMED packed game with tons going on.

    #297 4 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Wrong. Family Guy, 2007. A great game just a mere 8 years ago. He's still got it.

    ehh.. FGY is good, not quite great. I have one, it's mostly idle unless guests are around. Something about it just doesn't compel repeated play. I think the semi-randomness of the two main multiballs messes up any real strategy... Stewey is a cool toy, but more than once in any particular game starts to feel tedious. I'll say this: FGY is Pat's best Stern game, but compared to his WMS titles, it hovers around Road Show.. great ideas, cool layout, just doesn't quite put it all together. BR, WWind, FH, TAF, TZ, SC, NGG are all better games.

    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Oh well...no accounting for taste. The game's been out long enough for its reputation to be cemented - and the reviews are great. Casual and expert players alike have given it high marks for its design, rules (Keefer!), and theme integration.

    It's reputation is cemented as a semi-rare $4700 game.. that will tell you how well-loved it is. Good, not great

    #298 4 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    I am hoping for a completely JAMMED packed game with tons going on.

    I'm hoping for 3/4ths JAMMED packed game, and what is there is used 100%.

    Kind of give you that let's go exploring feeling.

    LTG : )

    #299 4 years ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    I'm hoping for 3/4ths JAMMED packed game, and what is there is used 100%.
    Kind of give you that let's go exploring feeling.
    LTG : )

    Yeah. 3/4 jammed will feel 100% compared to most current games. Also will be a nice flipside to the openness of TH.

    #300 4 years ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    Is what it is. I'm just not a customer for $9k pins.
    That said, if Pat's game is incredible could I talk myself into $8k? Never say never. But that's just a tough psychological barrier for me personally. There's a lot of awesome games out there for a lot less than that.

    $9k is a heck of a lot for one game. In the vid world you could almost have an entire home arcade for the price of one pin. It is frustrating that all LE's seem to be 8-9k now regardless. I loved Lebowski a lot but I have to agree with Aulrich that it's a hard 9-10k pill to swallow.

    For some that's pocket change. For others, they can do it but it requires some sacrifice. For most it's out of the question. But what will happen if that's the new msrp is a much larger drop in value once used. Go buy a 100k Mercedes and see the hit you take.

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