You compare JJP to a company with revenue of 3.7 billion that's a joke.

Let's try to take an objective look here.

Let's take the TOTAL number of machines Stern has shipped, and then calculated the number of QC problems as a percentage.

Now, let's compare that to your QC gold standard, JJP.

Take the number of QC issues we've seen reported (playfield problems, GI problems, light board issues, etc) and calculate that vs the number they've shipped.

Compare.

I suspect you would find Stern lacking in the QC department, yes. But you would find the incidence of QC problems out of JJP to be equally lacking if not FAR MORE so.

Conclusion:
Neither is the devil and neither is perfect.

Is this big funding / take #2 to JJP that bragged about not wanting or needing outside funds?
The influx of funds buys him time & that's it.

If serious competition is another company that struggles to produce product and deliver it (measured in years) to a handful of customers willing to wait (years) your definition of competition is far different than most peoples. Struggling start up is more fitting IMHO.

The Cargument~

Tesla's is a nice idea but a joke that is HEAVILY subsidized at the state and federal level.
Nothing like letting tax payers subsidize a $7500 tax credit for a car that costs $70 Grand.
If you have 70 grand for a vehicle ( any ) you should not be getting a federal tax break for it.

http://dailycaller.com/2015/08/10/tesla-is-hemorrhaging-money-despite-millions-in-govt-subsidies/

Pinside should levy a JJP Argument Tax.

That would get the parts ordered to build Hobbit in no time!

Labor is much more expensive these days. And the number of units sold are way down per title. It's much more expensive to make machines now than it was 20 years ago.

If it was possible to make a higher quality, cheaper pinball machine at a profit, someone would be doing it. The fact that no one has been able to come close shows just how hard it is to even survive in this industry. I don't think any of these companies are greedy, they are just doing what they have to to survive.

Thank you for helping me to make my point.

Holy crap, there's hope for you and me agreeing on something!

Couldn't agree more actually.

Sorry EK, go check out yahoo finance and see how much Tesla's current cash burn is.

Just announced another 500 million equity raise!

Translation, the NET bottom line matters except with the federal govt

Not a good deal to generate 3 billion in revenue while you LOSE 3 billion at that me time

Alex, why do you thumbs down my post? Is it cause he doesn't pay you either?
I know you're very well off and don't need the money.
It's a hell of a business model JJP has. Preorder money, free labor and non delivery of games. Maybe I should invest.
And now we're back on topic of JJP investment.

I bought a RRWOZ and have a TH ordered. That's easily 15 grand that didn't go to Stern. How is that not competition?

They recouped that by moving the power button, competition my ass!

That's not competition, that's just you overpaying for a pin!

Seriously, did you read my subsequent post replying to iceman44? Maybe it will clear things up for you.

I'm sure they didn't miss my money lol.

Big green!

Simple, It's because you give me hell for it and backhanded praise Lloyd. You're a hypocrite and a boorish individual who finds it amusing to belittle others who actually contribute to this hobby above your parlor trick of raising the temperature of the room opening their mouth.

I get you enjoy trying to get a rise out of people but all it does it make you look foolish. That's not very nice regardless of how comfortable you are playing that part.

Something Lloyd would never post.

Edit----Lloyd Rocks!

Let's look at problems fixed versus problems still occurring. JJP fixed the light board issue nearly 2 years ago and switched playfield manufacturers over a year ago. Stern on the other hand is currently having issues applying decals and some games are experiencing playfield issues. I don't hear of new WOZ owners complaining about decals peeling, decals being wrinkled or playfield quality issues.

JJP fixed their problems while Stern is creating new ones which I suspect is due to their current mindset of reducing costs. Are decals peeling on some of their recent games as they are using a new adhesive that saves them 75 cents a game? Who knows but I wouldn't put it pass them as they are on a roll with cutting features yet keeping prices high. See the new service rails on recent Stern's? I'm sure the reduction in metal is saving them $2 a game...yet prices are still $5k-$8k per game. How about the new mirrored back glasses not looking as good as those on older titles? Probably another $2-$5 savings per game.

If a company is building products that are not equal or superior to their past products (features, quality) while pricing continues to go up something is wrong.

I don't think it's really fair to compare the two companies.

What an incredibly simplistic (and wrong) view of how manufacturing works!

There's a "few minor" variables you missed in your statement. Hint: cost (labor, material, regulatory, etc).

Stern makes mistakes, so does JJP.

The irony of the WoZ issues was it was preceded by Jack trashing Stern and setting expectations for something flawless (which should NEVER have been expected from a product with thousands of moving parts, weighing hundreds of ponds and shipped by truck thousands of miles).

Fact:
JJP had delivered exactly ONE pinball machine so far. That machine was rife with QC issues.... now perhaps you want to call some of them design flaws, but either way, they had some major problems. For the JJP folks that love car analogies, the light board issue was bad enough if would have warranted a RECALL if that initial design was a car!

Now, let's see what happens when they ship the next one. Presumably adding a year+ to the delivery has given them time to work out the bugs, but lets wait and see.

Moral of the story: People in (Invisi)Glass Houses shouldn't throw stones.

I hear tons of complaints about playfield quality issuers with WOZ.

Clear chipping, wear around balloon, wear at the pops, wear at the throne.

Rumor on the street is that CCC applied the decals that wrinkled.

Hopefully once Stern gets fully up and running, they go back to installing their own decals (or better yet, start having cabs screened again).

Elon and Jack should collaborate and build a pinball machine inside of a self-driving car.

It's not like you're going to need to keep your eyes on the road anymore!

What do you think? 2 mill buy in. Company's with the building prob at 7-8 mill. Investors paid first out of liquidation. 4 mill total buy ins. I thought it might have had a shut your trap Jack clause but the fact there has not been a PR hire says otherwise. Seems like a helping hand, but one that can punch you in the face if they choose to. Like throwing peanuts to an elephant. If he eats them too fast no more peanuts.

Please send me the link to the manufacturing process book you wrote...Once again, the light board issue has been fixed for over two years! Those that had light board issues were offered replacement boards at no charge. So there's your warranted recall Also, not every game with a Bader playfield has issues as we've seen reported by Pinsiders. Even so JJP still changed playfield manufactures to eliminate any future problems. Do I think JJP should have put mylar down at the factory in common wear areas like Stern does? Absolutely, that was something very minor to miss that could turn into a larger issue for owners down the road if their game isn't protected. At least they offered free mylar kits for the wear areas at no charge to existing owners even if their game is out of warranty.

JJP has delivered ONE pinball machine so far and they managed to surpass anything Stern has built in terms of quality with their first game. I'm not saying that Stern is building poor pinball machines. They are building very good pinball machines but their own worst enemy is to continue to cut down games in terms of features and quality. The Metallica Pro LED I bought NIB several months ago hasn't had any issues and feels like a very solid game. The same goes for the NIB ACDC Premium I had bought over years ago which thankfully was made after the cloudy mini playfield issue was corrected. However, with owning a WOZECLE it's easy to tell which game has more attention to detail and is made better. WOZ wins hands down.

I've heard of owners not having reported issues at those areas either. My ECLE was made in October, 2013 and I haven't had any playfield issues. However, my game game probably doesn't have as many plays as some of the games with playfield wear in the areas you mentioned. All the areas you mentioned are spots where JJP should have put mylar down at the factory just like Stern does. I think JJP built a great game with WOZ but not putting mylar down in common wear areas, like Stern does (and like Bally / Williams did), was a very dumb decision. If a game has playfield chipping on it, not wear around areas where it would be expected without mylar, then I think JJP should replace the playfield at no charge.

Wrong again the equity raise is just over $650 million and that $650,000,000 puts no debt on the books

Let me get this straight you get one game in 4 years Stern does not sell direct so they lose out on half of one game and this matters how.

Minus the shipping cost I had to pay each time a board went out (SK to NJ) ... and the time it was down on location waiting for boards ... then more shipping cost for boards ... while being down on location waiting for boards ... then more shipping charges for boards ... while being down on location waiting for ... SOLD.

Fun game though.

I wonder if operators are selling the spike based games since many of them have had problems too.

Im not getting why this matters. This thread has gone on for over a week. How does it affect us at all?

Translation:

to fans:

blah blah blah FUN GAME THOUGH

to haters:

IT SUCKED SO I SOLD IT blah blah blah

There in no way to tell till JJP starts shipping a game other then Woz.The thing to look for is at what speed is the next game shipped and does increased efficiency help keep cost down a Pro model would be nice

Another stripped down POS like Stern puts out? No thanks. Stern puts out a stripped down turd at the price the LE should be and raises the LE to an ungodly price because it is "collectable". No thanks, just put out a good, quality pin at a reasonable price. I don't see that happening till people stop buying at the astronomical prices they are at now.

I have played IM MET AC/DC ST all in pro model all fun games. Feel free to spend $8000/$9500 on a game you will get in sep no oct wait nov hell who knows when

Mine has been trouble free out of the box. Earning well!

What Im saying is that for what you are getting the LE or at least the premium should be the price of the pro. You are not getting 9K worth of pinball machine, no way.

There is no Stern game that's $9k.

I'm Canadian. We aim to please everyone

I'm like you in that I want to see where my money is going in the form of something tangible (toys, features, code depth, etc...).

I used to scratch my head after reading posts by people who think games like Tron and IM are well worth the money. However, after reading many posts by people I respect, I've come to the realization that it's less about what's in the game and more about how fun the game is to them (which is perfectly valid). They get they're $$ worth of pinball in fun.

List retail was pretty close to 9K, lets not pick nits. They are not worth what they are going for now.

I think we have seen the last of screened cabs for a while. The return on the cost of the work isn't there and replacing a decal at the factory after you gash the side of a game is much easier than reprinting it.

This thread says retail for KISS LE was < $8k. List price is only relevant if someone is actually paying it ...
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/best-price-for-kiss-le#post-2431612

That said, if you're arguing that Stern LE's aren't worth $8k either, I agree.

fugetaboutit.jpg

No one pays list retail. LEs are in the $7k's. Prem in the $6k's. Maybe still not worth it? ...but not $9k.

As far as Jack making a "Pro" ...the whole point of JJP is that Pinball Sales' customers didn't want the cheaper/shallower/Photoshop-art Stern games of the time. JJP was created to make a product for Pinball Sales to sell. Are those anti-Stern customers still there? Or have they all gone back to buying Stern games for the past 4 years? Ironic that the "cheapness" of Iron Man led to the creation of JJP 4 or 5 years ago....Iron Man is BACK IN PRODUCTION with high demand and praise! The pinball market is funny. Maybe there is now a market for a JJP "Pro" ...but JJP came into existence from being "Anti-Pro". They buckled on Photoshop...so who knows! In any case - no point in discussion whether a Pro model is good or not for JJP's business plan....they first need to have more than 1 title available for there to be a viable business plan & for Stern to feel ANY blowback from competition.

Exactly; they have it figured out. It is all about the pinball fun.

I traded a HUO TSPP for a new IM 5 years ago. TSPP is objectively a more robust and full-featured game than Iron Man, but we were not enjoying it. Iron Man has been an absolute blast 5 years running and is one of the most played games in the collection.

Value is not always tangible.

...the whole point of JJP is that Pinball Sales' customers didn't want the cheaper/shallower/Photoshop-art Stern games of the time.

WOOZ and Hobbit are still Photoshop art. It is a much better quality than Stern but it is still Photoshop. JJP has its faults as well. Delivery 2-3 years past original stated delivery time, art chipping off PFs ( mine had less than 100 plays) and the PF Jack sent me for free was a second so I had to buy a good one, light boards going out and if I'm not mistaken games just not booting. Ill give him a buy because it is his first try but if this stuff happens with the second I wont be a buyer for the third and I have cash waiting for Lawlor's game.

Stern has already felt the blowback from JJP creating pins. Let's say JJP has sold 4500 games total so far. That's all 1000 WOZ ECLEs, 1000 numbered standards, another 1000 WOZ games since then (RR and more standards) and 1500 Hobbits between all 3 models. Using a conservative average price of $7000 per game that is almost $32 million in sales. I'm sure Stern would have liked that $32 million. When you take away potentially $30+ million in sales from another company that produces a similar product you are a competitor.

Actually WOZ was hand drawn. That entire cabinet is real live art work. They just did it so well you think it is a photo, but it isn't.