(Topic ID: 329118)

JB60SLE Price Negativity thread

By Bublehead

1 year ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 75 posts
  • 32 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Bublehead
  • Topic is favorited by 8 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Is JB60SLE overpriced or underwhelming?”

  • Overpriced 42 votes
    21%
  • Underwhelming 4 votes
    2%
  • Don’t care 41 votes
    21%
  • All of the above 113 votes
    57%

(200 votes)

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There are 75 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 1 year ago

The game looks fun. I would be happy to play it. What pisses me off is that it is so effing expensive. If it would have been a normal release (why shouldn't it) they could get the volume up and the price down. LCD the scoring for pro reels for the Prem/LE. Let the dopes pay stupid LE money because it is "exclusive"/ they are better than anybody who can't afford one/it is an investment because it is so rare. This game was a waste of resources that could have gone to anything else. Maybe not having a wobbling dildo on Bond. . .

#52 1 year ago
Quoted from snaroff:

I would imagine Keith is a full-time Stern employee (on salary) and not paid per machine (like a contractor), so that's not a pricing factor (and I highly doubt he is getting any bonus proportional to the cost of the machine).
Of course the coding is simpler for this machine, it has reels and an LCD with apparently no film footage or complex graphics. The programming effort on GZ, for example is HUGE. As a technologist, this should be obvious.
Folks trying to "justify the price" are barking up the wrong tree. There is already precedent for this...Beatles. The Diamond/Platinum editions took no more effort and Stern charged crazy prices for exclusivity. Sure, this is a much different situation, but the common Bond is 20k is the price for exclusivity (not the bean counters justifying actual BOM or engineering costs).

We will have to respectfully disagree that R&D can't be included. R&D is baked into EVERY product you buy and the people that design them are typically full time employees. It doesn't matter, the company is still paying for that time whether he is salaried or hourly. Volume matters as to how much is passed along to the cost of each unit. It is opportunity cost lost on another big seller. He is a full time employee and they have to recoup his cost on less machines than if he were designing the next cornerstone that would sell multiple 1000s. If it took him 6 months to design this machine and 6 months to design Godzilla, the cost of Elwin over that time is the same. The amount baked into each machine to recoup it is significantly different.

As far as coding, I even said that it is likely simpler... but there are things that are more challenging since it clearly can't use all the same framework pieces that all other IC pins use. If you look at every SPIKE2 with the big screen, there are very common elements across all that are reused, many of them not used here. But like I said, it is likely cheaper effort, just throwing out that there are things that would require more custom development that don't exist on standard IC Spike2s. No need to question my experience as a technologist.

I am not even trying to justify the price, quite the contrary, it isn't justified for me.

#53 1 year ago

This game is going to rock!!!

#54 1 year ago
Quoted from glasairpilot:

So, what is the answer to the pricing?

I'm coming out with a game for $2,500 packed full of some cool features. Keep in mind this is about 1/16th of the full feature set coming in February.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinball-eternal-announcement-official-thread

#55 1 year ago
Quoted from Insanity199:

We will have to respectfully disagree that R&D can't be included. R&D is baked into EVERY product you buy and the people that design them are typically full time employees. It doesn't matter, the company is still paying for that time whether he is salaried or hourly. Volume matters as to how much is passed along to the cost of each unit. It is opportunity cost lost on another big seller. He is a full time employee and they have to recoup his cost on less machines than if he were designing the next cornerstone that would sell multiple 1000s. If it took him 6 months to design this machine and 6 months to design Godzilla, the cost of Elwin over that time is the same. The amount baked into each machine to recoup it is significantly different.
As far as coding, I even said that it is likely simpler... but there are things that are more challenging since it clearly can't use all the same framework pieces that all other IC pins use. If you look at every SPIKE2 with the big screen, there are very common elements across all that are reused, many of them not used here. But like I said, it is likely cheaper effort, just throwing out that there are things that would require more custom development that don't exist on standard IC Spike2s. No need to question my experience as a technologist.
I am not even trying to justify the price, quite the contrary, it isn't justified for me.

I didn't say R&D can't be included, so please don't talk down to me. I led an R&D team for Apple for 20 years...I don't need to be schooled on what R&D is or how the cost factors into the end product! Every Stern pinball has R&D. Based on what's been disclosed (in terms of no A/V assets, minimal utility of the embedded LCD), it's clear to me that the software R&D for this game is significantly less than titles like GZ and Rush.

In any event, Stern's decision to charge 20k is likely a bone they decided to throw their distributors. For over 2 years, many distributors weren't getting enough inventory (which obviously hurts them financially). A game like this with tons of "margin" enables their distributors to make much more money per sale. I believe the distributors are paying 15k (max), which means they get to pocket 5k profit at MSRP (which is much more than typical sales).

#56 1 year ago

You said Keith's being a salaried employee made his work on the machine not a pricing factor. I read that the same way Insanity199 did, because Keith's salary, and everyone else's on his design team, is basically the R&D budget. I don't think anyone was talking down to you, it's just how your statement reads.

Quoted from snaroff:

I would imagine Keith is a full-time Stern employee (on salary) and not paid per machine (like a contractor), so that's not a pricing factor

If I'm misreading your statement lmk

#57 1 year ago
Quoted from snaroff:

I didn't say R&D can't be included, so please don't talk down to me. I led an R&D team for Apple for 20 years...I don't need to be schooled on what R&D is or how the cost factors into the end product! Every Stern pinball has R&D. Based on what's been disclosed (in terms of no A/V assets, minimal utility of the embedded LCD), it's clear to me that the software R&D for this game is significantly less than titles like GZ and Rush.
In any event, Stern's decision to charge 20k is likely a bone they decided to throw their distributors. For over 2 years, many distributors weren't getting enough inventory (which obviously hurts them financially). A game like this with tons of "margin" enables their distributors to make much more money per sale. I believe the distributors are paying 15k (max), which means they get to pocket 5k profit at MSRP (which is much more than typical sales).

And here comes the accrediations of who is more experienced which I tried to avoid and won't step into. You said that R&D can't be a price factor because he was a full time employee which is certainly not the case. Your words, not mine. You are also the one that said "Clearly as a technologist you can see it is simpler" attacking my credibility. If you don't want schooling, then don't school me. Anyway, as for this particular debate, I will leave it at that and as I mentioned, respectfully disagree.

Regardless, I agree there is a cash grab here but in reality I see a bigger cash grab in EHOH 50th and Beatles Diamond where the same Designer effort, same coding effort, same QA effort, etc was utilized on those editions. They just contained a little more sex and sizzle. At least with this title, all of that is unique and did require additional labor costs to achieve the end result even though the BOM is likely WAY lower.

And again, I am not a buyer and am not justifying the cost, just that there is some unique labor costs put into this as oppossed to the other cash grabs. I think it is overpriced.

#58 1 year ago
Quoted from trecemaneras:

You said Keith's being a salaried employee made his work on the machine not a pricing factor. I read that the same way Insanity199 did, because Keith's salary, and everyone else's on his design team, is basically the R&D budget. I don't think anyone was talking down to you, it's just how your statement reads.

If I'm misreading your statement lmk

Well, I guess I wasn't communicating effectively. R&D budgets include people's salaries (obviously). If Keith is salaried, his hourly rate is the same for all machines. If he spent fewer hours on Bond than GZ, then his contribution to the R&D budget is less (than GZ). That was my only point. For contractors, you can imagine a model where the cost is more variable, possibly based on how many are being built and the particular license.

My overall point is I don't see how anyone can look at this game and think the R&D budget is even close to games like GZ and Rush! From my perspective, the 20k price tag HAS NOTHING to do with the BOM or R&D budget. How do I know? I don't, but that's my educated guess. This price tag is based on exclusivity and profits (for both Stern and it's distributors).

#59 1 year ago
Quoted from Insanity199:

Regardless, I agree there is a cash grab here but in reality I see a bigger cash grab in EHOH 50th and Beatles Diamond where the same Designer effort, same coding effort, same QA effort, etc was utilized on those editions. They just contained a little more sex and sizzle. At least with this title, all of that is unique and did require additional labor costs to achieve the end result even though the BOM is likely WAY lower.
And again, I am not a buyer and am not justifying the cost, just that there is some unique labor costs put into this as oppossed to the other cash grabs. I think it is overpriced.

No doubt that simple aesthetic changes are proof the "cash grab" is based solely on exclusivity (which isn't the case here, so it's a tough comparison).

I wanted to be a buyer, but the overall package just doesn't excite me enough to write the check. Exclusivity is a nice perk, but it can't be the sole/primary perk for me...the art package and feature set is a let down to me. I owned Beatles Gold for several years...a lot of folks belly ached about it not being worth the $$, but I thought it was worth every cent @ $7,500. From my perspective, even factoring pinflation, this is a 10-12k game. 20k is insane, but I don't fault Stern. They are trying to do what's best for their business & distributors...we are definitely second class citizens in this game It will be interesting to see how it works out for them!

#60 1 year ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Poll update… so far I called it…
All of the Above is the black horse favorite right now, coming from behind and leading at 58%. 105 votes cast.

It’s now a neck and neck race for second between Overpriced and Don’t Care… both polling at 21%.
The black horse favorite All of the Above has fallen off the pace slightly now, but still holds a commanding lead over the field at nearly 3 and a half lengths with 56%.
Underwhelmed has had a miserable race, bucking at the starting gate has cost him dearly and definitely earned this jockey a trip to the showers as he just makes the clubhouse turn with 2%. 168 total votes cast.

#61 1 year ago

I think threads like these are stupid. Now if You did a thread for what price should be I think that would be more appropriate.

If this game had been priced at $15K would You still dog it?

Elvira 40th sold on open market at over $20K. That game doesn't have near the Franchise cost. Really not a ton on that PF.

#62 1 year ago

It's overpriced, but I don't care. So are a lot of things in life.

Eggs are now overpriced, and that's something I care about more than anything pinball related. Not saying much though.

#63 1 year ago
Quoted from sepins:

If this game had been priced at $15K would You still dog it?

This is what I dog:

Stern is moving to a larger facility and production, which is already behind due to parts shortages, will be further impacted. This has cost sales, especially with their price increases, and they need to make some quick dollars without tying up too much production capacity to help with the move. Sure the $2,000 toppers that cost them $200 to produce have helped, but the real model seems to be EHOH 40th Anniversary which was also a pure cash grab.

Not wishing to cannibalize sales of a future hot title in the works (BTTF, Jaws, etc.), the thought occurs, why not the Bond license? Sure, they are a pain in the ass to deal with, but the LE at 1,000 didn't sell out immediately and this might even push those sale along (after all, gotta keep the FOMO going or the emperor LE might lose their clothes).

OK turns out getting all the Bonds on one Pin was HARD (George Lazenby held out because his career fizzled after turning down subsequent Bond movies and he could really use the income), so the art is limited movie posters (again) and a University of Illinois Chicago art student cutting and pasting bond cutouts of the only approved images they could get. Gosh darn this is taking too long and we already botched the Bond rollout of the Gomez pins which is actually a pretty good pin though we are behind on the software (again) and the price increases are killing interest so let's just get something out quick and inexpensive (to us). We are going to need to give this pin a boost though because we suck at reaching out to other interested markets like Bond superfans, so we are going to need actual pinheads to buy this and nothing says FOMO like a Keith Elwin pin. Wait, we have Keith working on the next Godzilla and that needs to kick ass so we can stay at the top of the game, so we will have him design a single level PF only, no rules or anything else, in his spare time so we can say it is an Elwin pin and give a glimmer of hope to true believers while at the same time keeping the total cost of this pin down to $5,000 so we can pocket $7.5 million which will cover our move. Oh, and we don't think anyone will notice.

#64 1 year ago
Quoted from sepins:

I think threads like these are stupid. Now if You did a thread for what price should be I think that would be more appropriate.
If this game had been priced at $15K would You still dog it?
Elvira 40th sold on open market at over $20K. That game doesn't have near the Franchise cost. Really not a ton on that PF.

The 5 variables that dictate price for buyers: License, eye candy, gameplay, rarity and time. The algorithm for each of these variables is different for all of us. Nevertheless, games that kill it on all 5 will likely stand out and demand a premium. Time ultimately weeds out the winners from losers...for years after it's introduction, TRON was under-loved...years later it got the respect I think it deserved.

None of us know Stern's algorithm for selling...we can speculate all day long, but only Stern knows. As time passes, buyers will ultimately decide what they are willing to pay. Clearly, 20k is pushing it, however if they are selling these to distributors for closer to 10k, they are giving the distros nice upside AND freedom to discount if enough of us sit on the sideline. As has been disclosed in other threads, some distributors are already discounting 10-20%, which doesn't happen for today's Pro's/Premium's/LE's.

#65 1 year ago
Quoted from sepins:

I think threads like these are stupid. Now if You did a thread for what price should be I think that would be more appropriate.
If this game had been priced at $15K would You still dog it?
Elvira 40th sold on open market at over $20K. That game doesn't have near the Franchise cost. Really not a ton on that PF.

Elvira has more mechs and is more elaborate than any stern in the last 10 years.

Reminds me of BSD, looks pretty tame on the top but has a lot going on underneath.

#66 1 year ago
Quoted from sepins:

I think threads like these are stupid. Now if You did a thread for what price should be I think that would be more appropriate.
If this game had been priced at $15K would You still dog it?
Elvira 40th sold on open market at over $20K. That game doesn't have near the Franchise cost. Really not a ton on that PF.

I feel like if it was priced at 15K we'd all still be having the exact same conversations lol

#67 1 year ago

This thread is an immediate drain. So stupid.

#68 1 year ago
Quoted from ReadyPO:

This is what I dog:

Dude, have you been Incepting me?!?

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#69 1 year ago
Quoted from JustEverett:

This thread is an immediate drain. So stupid.

Well to quote Curly Bill,

5D5D850F-D550-48C6-A210-89A8E0C9163E.gif5D5D850F-D550-48C6-A210-89A8E0C9163E.gif
#70 1 year ago

It’s just money. Can always make more right?

#71 1 year ago

The weird thing about Bond SLE is where are the for sale ads? I got the call on mine shipping and paid for it.

Normally at 500 units there would be lots for sale or trade???

#72 1 year ago
Quoted from sepins:

The weird thing about Bond SLE is where are the for sale ads? I got the call on mine shipping and paid for it.
Normally at 500 units there would be lots for sale or trade???

Stern took back all unsold games from distros.

Can you imagine if Stern only produced the amount of game’s ordered?

I hope not or getting this game could be very costly.

#73 1 year ago

Personally I'm looking forward to 1 year from now, when hopefully Venom, Foo Fighters, and Avatar 2 are all released and in play, and all this insane James Bond overhype ends.
The main game is extremely underwhelming.
This game would have been cool had the price not driven some to, well...this!

The price bitching gets old.
If you don't like a price, don't buy it. Simple.
If the ops and resellers are going to be driven by greed (and they often are), so will Stern, the number 1 supplier of the greedfest.

#74 1 year ago
Quoted from ejg10532626:

Personally I'm looking forward to 1 year from now, when hopefully Venom, Foo Fighters, and Avatar 2 are all released and in play, and all this insane James Bond overhype ends.
The main game is extremely underwhelming.
This game would have been cool had the price not driven some to, well...this!
The price bitching gets old.
If you don't like a price, don't buy it. Simple.
If the ops and resellers are going to be driven by greed (and they often are), so will Stern, the number 1 supplier of the greedfest.

But GREED is the only way to get to the vault, remember?

#75 1 year ago

Played Bond GG Pro today. First game- replay and 224mil couple extra balls. My impression was this is the Bond for your Buck sweetspot. Clips, callouts, cost. Loved it. I'd buy a Premium but this pro was fun, Bond on Wand will only make it more fun. Loved the combo shots, felt solid and repeatable. The advanced trans-dildonic villian rocket wasn't as much a distract as I thought it would be. Really makes me scratch my head at JB60SLE.

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