(Topic ID: 292168)

Haggis Pinball - 2nd game = Fathom + Fathom 2.0 confirmed

By FalconPunch

6 months ago

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  • Latest reply 22 hours ago by roar
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#4 6 months ago

Or it’s generic shark game, which id still be into

#26 6 months ago

I wouldn't mind Deep Blue Sea either

I don't think it's impossible for Haggis to get the Jaws license and for them to work out a reasonable price for it. Zen Pinball did a Jaws game after all. The issue with the license has always sounded more like you just get the name of the movie and the shark. The music and various actor licenses cost a lot more, if some are even gettable. At least that's the impression I've gotten from smarter people about this particular license.

I'm sorta conflicted because I really want a Jaws machine, but I also know that it won't be the game I've been thinking about for years. Sinking Orca upper-playfield mech, a shark head that pops out and eats the ball, swimmer leg drop targets to eat, the Austin Powers/Walking Dead crossbow mech to harpoon the shark, etc... I've always liked the idea of having two game modes, one where you're trying to stop the shark and another where you're the shark causing chaos.

I'll be happy either way though. Generic shark game could be a great original theme IMHO.

#28 6 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

It's not possible for Haggis to get any license. They've sold 18 pinball machines.

More than Dutch when they licensed TBL from Universal

Pretty sure they mostly care about the check cashing. There's all sorts of Jaws merchandising crap. It was one of the first major movies to get heavily into licensing random junk.

#30 6 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Dutch had an industry veteran securing the Licensing for them. Licensing games isn't as easy as just snapping your fingers and cutting a check.

So...Haggis could pay Roger Sharpe to help...

It's not a Herculean task to go hire a consultant to get it done. It's just a question of having the capital to pay for it.

#33 6 months ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Do you think they have the capital to pay for it?

They had the capital to start a whole factory.

I think it would be hard to argue that Jaws wouldn't sell like hotcakes and be a killer ROI. That is assuming they can keep up with the demand, but that's a good problem to have.

#44 6 months ago

That’s what I thought too. Modern Fathom game

Bringing back the reverse outlanes?

#67 5 months ago
Quoted from cosmokramer:

Sopranos would be better...turn the yacht into the orca, yellow barrel pop bumpers, shark cage where the safe is...dock near stripper pole (ok that doesnt work)

Maybe something like a water skier going around in circles. Try to hit the ramp at the right time to eat them.

#101 5 months ago
Quoted from FalconPunch:

I believe its Proc.

It’s P3-ROC. Damian’s VLOG was a lot of fun as a home brewer.

#143 5 months ago
Quoted from SR230CC:

I was excited until I saw the price + 2.0 not in the standard. How much would it cost to build one? If the rare parts are available eventually from Planetary.

It would cost a lot

The game is expensive, but it is certainly full of expensive stuff.

#145 5 months ago
Quoted from andre060:

As per the interview on Pinball Profile, their Fathom remake is using FAST, so looks like they've switched systems! Interesting.

I noticed that as well. FAST can be a bit cheaper for a homebrew product, but Idk what bulk rates are like for FAST and Multimorphic.

I believe this will be the first production FAST game?

#148 5 months ago

Yeah, that's what the original looks like. The one without the modern controller, RGB lighting, LCD screens, etc

Those inline drop target backs with trip coils are no doubt crazy expensive to build these days.

I'm curious if anyone has a good idea on how much a new Fathom cost in 1981. It's when Bally was really putting a ton into the game. I wouldn't be surprised if this is somewhat comparable when inflation is taken into account.

#167 5 months ago

Rick, it's a great looking game and seems reasonably priced for the amount of stuff in there. People are just upset because they really want one and have little perspective on the costs of building a couple hundred units.

#265 5 months ago

In order of confidence, I’m guessing Fathom, EBD, Centaur, Skateball, Viking. Maybe Medusa or Xenon

Edit oh and Voltan. That may be very likely. Super rare

#267 5 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

You don't say??
Who said their 'classics' line was ONLY bally games? He committed to PPS - who has rights for both.

Because he said classic Bally specifically. So I’ll take him at his word he’s going to stick to that 79-83 period of Bally games

#273 5 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Everyone says EBD - but the # of them makes me wonder if that's a risker bet. Plus, does pool limit your potential for 2.0 rules?
Joust just seems too risky for all the obvious reasons (cabinet, head to head, etc). If they were going that way, I'd consider Defender first.
SoF is an interesting one... I was tempted to throw out Space Shuttle or Taxi.
Even tho there are more 'rare' titles - I gotta think they want to chase 'favorites' not just 'hard to get' ones too.

Idk. Stern made Sharkeys Shootout which is essentially EBD with modes and some tweaks.

#274 5 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Good spot - I was going on the interviews and the discussion. I think 5 is gonna be digging pretty deep if they stick to the -35 era games. Lots of exclusivity, but as much 'desirability'??
I don't see xenon pulling in that kind of demand... nor Viking.. for instance.
Let's hope we get to see them get that far to find out!

Yet Viking is among the most valuable of that era. It’s not Fathom or Centaur level valuable, but like you said you start to reach with 5 titles of this era.

I don’t think highly of Medusa, but a lot of people have been asking for it

#374 5 months ago
Quoted from Damonator:

You have to keep in mind that the average price is not for completely restored mint games.

This. A super mint version of any of those games is at least $5k if not more. It's an all new cabinet, backglass, plastics, playfield, mechs, etc...

Now I don't think they could get away with charging 9k for Viking 2.0. But Viking is also much simpler than Fathom in terms of mechanics, so I can see that being more like 7k

#398 5 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

I think I would pay $7000 for a Centaur 2.0 without any bells and whistles, that is just a standard backglass, playfield, cabinet and apron displays and 2.0 ruleset. No topper, no powdercoat, no Radcals, no do-dads, gee-gaws, or trinkets. You need the apron displays to add more player feedback so they understand the story and the new extended rules, but the rgb displays are unnecessary gee-wizardry in my book. On a true recreation, with no significant external difference between it and OG equipment, I would go $6k, but being as it will be shipped from down under, and with the exchange rate, that isn't going to buy it.

I might be mistaken, but I believe Fast only does RGB serial lighting. So the lights will be RGB regardless of them being utilized in that way.

That said it would be neat if you could have the user option to select all warm white, all cool white, color matched inserts, clown puke GI, etc... in the service menu. It doesn't need a rainbow light show during the game, especially Centaur, but changing the GI to red would look sharp during certain moments

#425 5 months ago

What if they rethemed Flash Gordon into something else? It's still an amazing butt kicking machine. It wouldn't have the same nostalgia factor, but I bet it's way cheaper to pay for a great artist to make a new package than to license Flash Gordon, Sam Jones, Queen music, etc...

I think they'll stick to the original themes and only have to deal with PP licensing.

Maybe if Damian carves out a good niche he could talk Stern into letting him build some classic Sterns. Stern is no doubt watching this and thinking what price point and how many units of a classic Quicksilver they could sell. I'd love it if they did Seawitch 2, ie The Beatles without the license. It's such a great improvement on Seawitch.

#430 5 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

I think it would be the opposite... if the market is proven stern can just decide to do some remakes themselves in the rotation. Let someone else set the high price point... then stern just moves on in... slight cheaper but still expensive enough to make it worth it.

Stern could absolutely do it, it’s just how profitable is it vs running other games. Selling the license is just free money

The only low run games Stern does are the Whoa Nellie and Spiderman home variants. They’re getting a lot of mileage out of those CAD files and factory line toolings/templates.

I’m kinda curious how well a Spike node board translates to some of those SS games. I know they cut some corners (like slings firing together) to get it down to a single main playfield node board on the home game layout.

Edit I looked and not well. They’d have to use two. Not the end of the world, but a pretty big bump up in BOM. They couldn’t even be bothered to do it on Supreme and Heavy Metal, which went for premium dollar.

#461 5 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

For each of those they still have to work up all the art, software, BOM, etc. Still a sizable project - just with a major headstart. Running their classic games could be setup similar... once you have the emulation platform setup and a hardware model.. it's just dealing with the mechanics and BOM.

All just choices - not constraints. It's largely a math exercise, one at which only Stern can ultimately gauge their thresholds. The good news is, the worst part of these games is the high cost mechs - and Stern's volume is the best to address that point.

Oh I agree. That's why I think Stern may not want to fool with it on limited run games. Their factory has plenty of demand to keep up with. Though I can only make a semi-educated guess based off observation.

They would likely have to charge bare minimum pro pricing on the games, and I think that's a hard sale against their other offerings. I don't think the original themes have the nostalgia factor to overcome the price (see BKSOR in a showroom vs Star Wars, Marvel, Stranger Things, etc). It may even have to be premium prices because of the limited run (see pricing on other limited run games), but maybe that higher price point can get them a desirable license (see Beatles)

Some of the mechs Stern keeps on hand, and some they don't. Quicksilver would be a good game since it's primarily a 4 bank (Stranger Things) and a 3 bank (lots of games). It's not a terribly complicated game to build, yet it seems like a hard sale without a lot of 2.0 love and a good theme. (How many are they really going to sell. 1000 tops?) But something like a 9-ball? Not gonna happen.

With those low run contract games, like Primus or Supreme, its a group approaching Stern and agreeing to buy X amount upfront. Wouldn't be surprised that Joe Kamikow put up the money upfront to get Beatles off the ground.

That's why I think Haggis may be able to strike a deal. A couple hundred sales is a big deal for them and small potatoes for Stern.

#466 5 months ago
Quoted from rai:

does anyone know if shipping is included or do we need to pay additional shipping from PPS?

You get shipping to Nevada. Pick it up or ship for another $300-500 or so from there.

#474 5 months ago
Quoted from rotordave:

I don’t think there’s been any bagging of Haggis ... not that I’ve seen anyway.
I think everyone thinks Fathom is a great choice.
Should have been done years ago.
The only negative posts I’ve seen are about the price ... people seem to think you can make a game with no ramps (wholesale cost probably $50 ...) for way less than a game with ramps for some strange reason.
And conjecture on what other games they’ll make other than the obvious Fathom and Centaur.
Good on Haggis, I hope they make a shit load of them.

It’s pretty insane what people think Fathom should cost and compare it to a modern game. Like Led Zeppelin Pro is some ramps (metal at least), some standard slings/pops/flippers/trough/ball-launch, a three bank of drops, and a guy jumping up and down on a stick.

Fathom is loaded with expensive mechanical parts compared to that

Led Zeppelin has much more sophisticated software and LCD features, but that development also gets spread out over 5,000+ built units over the years

#510 5 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Yes, it covers the subject where he discusses how they had to rework the mechs and couldn't just re-use existing designs - because of mounting locations (top side items can't just screw in now) and variances between the PF due to the plastic top. Things that would make it difficult to be a direct replacement for OEM parts.

But almost all the mechanics are attached to the bottom of the playfield.

Like the trippable in-line bank from this game should theoretically work fine on a CPR playfield. (Alignment holes may be different, but not an insurmountable problem)

Their playfield is the same thickness as a normal playfield. Heck on Celts you had the option of a traditional clear coated wood playfield, hardtop, or their acrylic composite solution.

#513 5 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

The bottom of the playfield does not live in isolation. That's where the difference comes in... accommodating the 'new neighbors' crowding you because stuff that previously wasn't through-hole.. now is.

Is it? Or were both Haggis PFs simply the same net thickness.

I guess I just don’t understand what you think the issue is. Sure the acrylic version has to have tnuts for mounting posts, but that doesn’t matter if you’re building a new one with a CPR playfield. Some alignment holes on the drop target mechs and such may be different, but that’s not a big deal in the grand scheme of things

They’re all the same thickness when finished, otherwise they’d have to make different mechs for each type of playfield material.

#569 5 months ago

Is the cabinet lighting trying to do a water effect? Because that's a nice touch

Did anyone notice the standup to light the spinner and such is the wrong color? It's white in the photos and should be yellow.

#574 5 months ago
Quoted from roar:

No news on that front yet, assumptions being made are that it will be their "hard top" version based on the description provided by Haggis... I looked through the Facebook posts this morning and did not see the question asked... the other question I'd be curious to hear an answer on is whether the inserts will be white and jewelled or coloured and clear like they are in the prototype on the latest video. I was happy to see the correct colours being used in the video today as previous pictures had green and blue interchanging inserts on the bonus numbers and that was driving me crazy Unless the inserts are all clear and they can control the light colour, then I'm good!

If the Mermaid edition is doing RGB insert lightning they have to be clear or opaque white, otherwise the color lenses would prevent effective RGB shows

#586 5 months ago
Quoted from etien:

the 2.0 code should allows some leeway to smooth the experience.
> "dont move" wpc style is the ball has been put in play for less than X second, refeed a ball to the launcher
> woz "toto" or "no place from home challenge" in case of repeat drain

Lots of fun stuff they could do on 2.0

They could detect you actually making a save through the reverse outlane. Trigger the roll over switch, smack it back into play, hit any other switch besides the outhole.

#625 5 months ago

As long as you can tap pass on the flippers the game will be gold

2 weeks later
#957 5 months ago

Does Haggis clearcoat the polycarbonate sheet?

Gomez was mostly commenting on the coefficient of friction being different, which makes the ball behave differently, and I think he admitted if they clear coat the sheet then the ball would have the same friction as a normal playfield.

#958 5 months ago

Also if Damian is occasionally answering questions,

Can you describe the flipper mechs and if tap passing works? It's not as critical to tap pass on Fathom compared to some other classic Ballys, but it is a fundamental part of how those games feel. (Best feeling flippers IMHO)

I get why they're probably WPC Fliptronics like (which you can tap pass on, but it's really difficult to consistently do). Just curious if Damian et al have any thoughts on the matter.

#963 5 months ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

Over the years there have been FAST users who have tuned their flippers to feel like games of this era. The pinball purists in our camp will provide Damian and team with all the support they need to get the flippers to feel just as they should.
FAST Pinball

Oh really? I'm going to PM you about that special sauce. I wired up my game with traditional high voltage switches because I love that direct control feel.

#968 5 months ago

Helpful, but that's for Celts when they offered 3 different versions of the playfield. Fathom is seemingly only getting one option and I don't think it's been clarified if it's more like option 2 or 3 from that video.

#975 5 months ago
Quoted from punkin:

I'll help.
Why do engineers always feel that they have to tell you what they do for a living?
No-one says "I know all about surfaces because I'm a boilermaker."

In some countries Engineer is a professional title much like Doctor is in America. So we could be more annoying lol

I only have a boring abbreviation at the end of my title.

#1023 5 months ago
Quoted from rotordave:

Yeah I also heard that ....
Seems superfluous to clear coat acrylic?

It's not to protect the acrylic but to give the playing surface the same coefficient of friction as a normal playfield.

1 month later
#1316 3 months ago

Great update. Damian’s enthusiasm is delightful to see as he works on this Herculean trial

As to why they haven’t shown off much of the Mermaid Edition, Id wager it’s that they’re still working to polish the new software. I’m sure they’ll show it off as soon as they think it’s ready to show off.

Besides they have lots of other things to give updates about. It’d be nice to see the new software, but the manufacturing is what really matters at the end of the day. They can push software updates if need be. They gotta get the line running first though and I’m sure that’s the priority.

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