Is that a viable option to deliver to a US location for our northern neighbors to come pick it up ? In any case I am fairly close for anyone Ontario/Ottawa... And have games on order already too.. Not sure what else would need to be worked out..

Seems a little slow right now, but works..

I also got notice that my invoice / payment will be requested in the next week or so.. And also same on shipping as i only have approximate costs for options so far..

I had an email exchange for my Celts order this week. Which mine is now estimated within 4 weeks. I am likely near the end of Celts production. Fathoms follow Celts. But the date could slip more, as there are significant lock down in the area that Haggis is located that is affecting their production. *Edit* adding optimism -- if the lock down situation improves I guess production could move up too

Unfortunately I do not know this. But I did get my invoice yesterday.. Just have to decide later on if a container on a ship, or avoid the shipping delays via air for $$$ ...

Late to post, got this before our family trip a week or so ago..

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2 Mermaids!! Nice!!

Email mentioned the order of builds in general.

But also that soon we would all get info on exactly where you are in queue..

If everyone shares their mermaid order number you can maybe glean where you are (other things Haggis has for sale also get a number). Plus those who purchased the series tickets get to jump some spaces in queue however..

I have had decent communication with Damien, and found them to be at least as responsive as other manufacturers / dealers, and was given an approximate date for the first Mermaids recently. I still expect that to be optimistic, but very confident it is coming soon enough.

Scratching my head on how you could not of considered this a a boutique company, or not know it was a company that was indeed just building up. There is a stream of videos out there from just before covid turned everything inside out, where Damien was sitting in a small room opening boxes of things to prototype pinball builds, and continuing on with development. Forward a bit to when they tried to start real manufacturing then boom the entire area that Haggis plant is located in was in severe covid lockdown for several months, not just you have to wear a mask type of lockdown, but real enforced stuff. I think it was even just recent that restrictions have been lifted. That is not something anyone was predicting or fully prepared for. There are also very significant disruptions in all other areas of the manufacturing pipeline here, and even beyond that. Stern who is extremely matured in this space has a backlog of a year or more due largely to the same stressors.. We all lived through this, should know this...

In any case, it is fairly impressive that they have survived that, and clear by the build / packaging / quality / etc of their first game, they are on a path to get to where you may of thought they were a couple years ago. And as there are more than a handful of Celts out there now, you claim 'NOTHING', odd.. And those few dozen Celts that are in peoples hands were made in the last couple of months, and I think likely with a fraction of the manufacturing/assembly staff they had planned to have last summer.

In any case this is all moot, mermaids are being made now, pictures of them will start to show up soon enough. I'll enjoy mine if it arrives in 4 weeks or 14 weeks..

Good points

So..

This mention of Centaur as #3 !!!!

Or can they replicate zipper flippers for a Medusa..

Might expect they will use similar flippers as Celts. Driven by the proc system.. Then it would come down to how they might code the drive and pwm hold.. Not sure that can be made to feel the same..

Haggis is shipping games just as fast as they can as well.. Unfortunately no Fathoms yet. Just that they have no where near the capacity as Stern. Really no other pinball manufacturer even comes close to Stern.

You did not see the major update then ?
I mean I have a couple emails from them, that I would consider fairly significant.

The most significant was that Fathoms went into production.
There was even an estimated amount of time till shipments as well.

They have shipped a few dozen Celts.. So like I said I think they are shipping as fast as they can.
At some point they will grow and be able to increase capacity, and external forces that slow everything will lessen.

I was waving my hands saying there was a major announcement! Two if you like the note about shipping.
I'd enjoy seeing a few pictures, but those are meh, spend that hour or two setting up a good shot assembling things is way better use of time..

Now also waving my hands because there is a recent delivered Celts right there behind me.. And also I have had communications with Damian in the past week.. Truth is it really does not matter, they have sold all the Mermaids, and their pipeline is filled for quite some time. They will ship soon enough.

Also what shipping method did you go for?

Woot! Keep watching the tracking on that, as it may at some point ask you for import details to fill out, so as to not delay at any point through customs..

How deep is the Alien LV backlog ? At this point if you were not already in on either of these months ago, its going to be a long wait for one.. In any case, Alien is a good choice, fun game.. PB is doing a good job supporting and production is happening..

Oh hell yeah, nice! Then you should just get both! Going to be a bit of time for a Fathom!

They are not done making Celts. They were done making all the Celts that were slotted to be done before starting Mermaids. And it was after that the order page for Celts changed a bit to call new Celts with the toys / etc the Highland Edition.. In any case pretty good indication that Haggis is doing just fine given all the worldly conditions, being able to build and iron out last minute details with Fathom and still produce Celts..

And I imagine they may be even making more now too ...

+PinballBrothers or do you put them in about the same development level as Haggis now ?

I would think Haggis is past the point where some of these others have failed..
They have delivered a few dozen Celts, and continue to make some even in parallel with Fathom.

Will they make it long term.. Well I hope so. Time will tell..

Also at what point really will folks that are skeptical not be, after the first batch of Fathom unboxing pics ?

The folks that have been full invoiced are the the season ticket folks and Haggis cost of producing must still be inline, as shipping is covered in this, including a discount on air if optioned for.. So once they complete the initial games, non-seasons will be invoiced, and then it is all logistics to keep the supply of parts in stock..

Correct. The outer shell is molded fiberglass. The problem was the shell was fairly thin, especially along the sides, and was easy to shatter / crack. The updated lock downs I have seen are thicker fiberglass.

Can message me the account they said to send to, I could verify that it is at least the same I have sent for Celts and other things..

LOL, He is under no such obligation to do so.. Besides what could it possibly even prove... You have a video of a working unit, you were all about needing that to prove it is not vapor. Now Damian has gotten past a couple cabinet, drop target, supply issues, and able to take money to produce next batch, and he is now using previous experience to estimate a little longer hopefully more accurate lead time..

For one I like that he is estimating 8 weeks, instead of 4.. How many can they make in a week, how many need to fill a container to ship to the US, folks can expedite this by opting for air. Is it better to say 4 then ship in 8, or say 8 and surprise your game is boxed sooner ??

In any case people can pay it or not.. Someone a little later in the queue can jump up a few spots.. Maybe that someone is you even, have a late number game ? want it earlier? Get someone a little uneasy, to hold off some ?

Oh oops..

So.. Does your arse point to the ground, and you wager game does not ship in 8 weeks ? Or does your arse not point to the ground, and you wager that it does ship in 8 weeks ? Or does your arse only sometimes point to the ground, so that way you are covered if it does or does not ship in 8 weeks ?

So.. prod floor now in video. Check.. game getting wrapped up.. check.. One put in a box even.. check..

Shot of floor projector.. What was this a known feature ????

Go Haggis..

One on location at - Rochester Pinball Collective - East Rochester ..

The boxes are preprinted with Model, Country, Serial and the underscores.. Haggis uses some ink transfer sticker for the actual words above the underscores. That transfer comes out much darker and different font.. That is the reason for the difference there..

It is a nice touch.. Probably faster or same as other places that have some guy write the serial number / details on the box with a sharpie, or apply a plain white sticker with printed lettering..

Well he "said" he had a buyer at 10k, and maybe implied this alleged buyer knew it was just for the pre-order spot..

Mermaid on its way.. Tracking number received this morning.. Celts took about a week, so will see how quickly this makes it through customs..

Yes, and air!

Will be going right on location next to-ish the Celts!

Yes, Rochester Pinball Collective (East Rochester, NY).

Pretty sure the head on this is wider than my basement stairway at home, would like to have it at home for a bit before there, but also do not want to be taking this apart so will get a couple pics of the box in the garage and over to there pretty much immediately..

Got the notice a couple hours ago, that the game will be delivered today, now nicely into the garage. Will get some more pics later, and onto the floor by this weekend!

IMG-5591 (resized).jpg

Beautiful game, with great finish an details inside and out..

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Oh I see what you mean, thank you.. Did not notice anything earlier but definitely see it missing in the picture. Had a fair amount of tweaks here and there we needed to do, and will need my head underneath some more. Later in the week when we are back there will get a few more pictures.

Have not seen a duty charge..

We have had two code updates since release. I did ask Damian to post change logs, and I believe you can find them on the support link on haggis website now.

The main changes were corrections of various bugs in the original fathom code. I do not recall the exact changes, but there were indeed several oddities/problems that were corrected.

The second patch corrected timings around hitting the green/lower saucer, where a ball could miss the saucer and get lost behind drop targets.

Haggis got these out to us about a day or two after reporting issues.

There is another patch coming that will increase stability in the LCDs, and score displays. Among some other things, hopefully including 2.0 modes scoring issue with for the green saucer mode.

Haggis has been very responsive to us on these and a couple other issues.

As for video, I'm sure soon we will add it to one of our tournaments and likely will get into one of our twitch streams..

We heard there is a patch coming for Celts as well. Not sure exactly what will be included in it yet, but seemed suggested it will be significant..

Very real company, not a fully matured company yet, game production does seem to be accelerating. There are unfortunately very real limits on time here too, so perhaps a decision was made to significantly prioritize time and energy into the builds, versus customer communication.

So in reality people should be confident here. Their game will come. And it will be sweet in the end..

Deposits are clearly stated as non-refundable.

Are you making up situations where you think people are demanding money back ?

The closest I recall anyone stating this here -- Haggis facilitated transfer of deposits, something they are not obliged to do, but result is original depositor got their money back..

Can confirm that we have this off the floor now for the last few weeks. Since we opened the case with Haggis, Fast has published references for the I/O boards (that or somehow we did not see them initially). It is a bit of a slow go for sure. But we will have parts soon from Haggis, as this is either a faulty coil, or possibly a problem on the 3208 I/O board, unfortunately this means a week or two more as this all needs to go through customs...

We reported display issues as well, and have word that there is work being done to correct this, and should have a software patch coming soon. Both for the score/segment displays, and occasional in apron screen blanking/resets..

I did reach out to FAST as well for troubleshooting tips, they reached out to Haggis and also offered to ship a replacement instead of having to have one take a round trip to AU.. Hopefully will have this whole thing resolved early next week..

Folks with a Fathom, can you look to see how the wires to this coil are routed on the large bank of drop targets. Found where I think caused our first short, there was a small spot of insulation worn that somehow we did not see until last night. The wear was just near the lower coil in the picture, maybe where it was ziptied to the mech or possibly had a chance of getting caught by the mech movement itself. Unfortunately I had no other pictures of how it was ziptied or routed, but might be worth a look to see if you might have the same situation.. Our game got quite a few plays the first couple weeks it was on the floor..

IMG-5595 (1) (resized).jpg

Well that mode is also a bit buggy as far as scoring goes, like draining the ball early in the mode (after ball save) will get you a million points or so.. Completing the mode, if you can, maybe a couple hundred k ..

Thank you it does.. I'm pretty certain mine doesnt have the two black plastic tie down things in that area, and the wire was firmly zip tied to the mech itself.. Maybe the vibration of that mech when it resets eventually caused the short. So looks like they changed that sometime after my build to yours..

Wondering the version of code that you applied ?

We have had several issues with flippers feeling weak.. In all have had to adjust just about every part linkages too tight, flipper leaf alignment, needed to burnish the flipper leaf contacts, make sure the dual stack leaf was properly gapped and tensioned, etc.. There was something with the dual stack leafs that a when they exhibit low power they are registering multiple times (can tell when the bonus lanes rotate multiple times per flip).. In any case once we got that corrected, flippers feel much improved..

There are also risks with charge backs and reversals, after they ship the product. At least I have heard from some distributors that the wire transfer is to protect them from that type of scam.

Only US folks posting are the ones that opted for air transport. Some posts back there was mention of a container being filled for a slower sea shipment.. So if that is the case there will eventually be a largish number all at once in the US receiving..

Did they send you tracking or freight id info of any kind ? Depending on the transport there may be a sight where you can track where the ship is on the ocean even..

I would probably sum this all up like this.. Not a big deal..

There are at most a handful of non-mermaids even going to be built before the end of the year.
Haggis stated wrapping up Fathom this year, then a run of Celts, then the next title after.

At their current rate of machine building.. does not seem like there will be time to make very many of the Fathom non-mermaid pluses.. I assume some people would still opt for the Fathom non-mermaid non-plus classic still too..

The fathom code on the download is indeed named 'celts'.. Guess they didnt get around to updating the installer to understand celts vs fathom file names yet..

Weak auto plunge or weak when manual plunged ?

The weak manual plunge is probably because the ball sits too far forward (reason for trying to move the playfield back some). I think someone also suggested pulling the rubber tip off the plunger, put a small nut inside the rubber, then put back on. That seems like it should help alot as well..

We had this issue when I had Fathom.. There is a way to get debug logs. And they are readable, if you open and can read code stack traces.

Very likely the issue is what we reported to Damian, that there can be an error of sorts over the usb cable that connects between the NUC and the FAST cpu board. The code does not handle corruption over USB, and code basically crashes, does not restart. We had purchased higher quality usb cables, and rerouted the cable away from electronics, and ensured the cable was seated very well on both ends. Our random crashes stopped.

If I recall correctly, just plugging in a USB fob will cause the game to write logs to it (or perhaps there was a menu option to tell the game to write to the usb). If you do this you should have either one large log, or one per the last several power cycles. If you want to try and do this, and send me a copy of the logs I can verify if this is the same issue we had..

''Edit''

From Damian in the past times...

"Would it be possible for you to take some logs from the game for me and send them through. If you place a blank USB in the cable inside the coin door while the game is in attract mode, It will save out the current logs (as soon as possible after you noticed a hang up would be great if possible)"

...

And for more fun, this was in the logs for every crash we had:

2023-05-19 07:13:08,625 : WARNING : FAST : Port /dev/ttyUSB3 was blocked for more than 1s. Reseting send queue! If this happens frequently report a bug!
2023-05-19 07:13:08,632 : ERROR : asyncio : Exception in callback Util.raise_exceptions(<Task finishe... start byte')> at /game/.local/lib/python3.6/site-packages/mpf/core/utility_functions.py:759
handle: <Handle Util.raise_exceptions(<Task finishe... start byte')> at /game/.local/lib/python3.6/site-packages/mpf/core/utility_functions.py:759>
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/usr/lib/python3.6/asyncio/events.py", line 145, in run
self._callback(*self._args)
File "/game/.local/lib/python3.6/site-packages/mpf/core/utility_functions.py", line 767, in raise_exceptions
future.result()
File "/game/.local/lib/python3.6/site-packages/mpf/platforms/base_serial_communicator.py", line 182, in socket_reader
self._parse_msg(resp)
File "/game/.local/lib/python3.6/site-packages/mpf/platforms/fast/fast_serial_communicator.py", line 407, in parse_msg
if msg.decode() not in self.ignored_messages:
UnicodeDecodeError: 'utf-8' codec can't decode byte 0xbf in position 0: invalid start byte
2023-05-19 07:13:08,637 : INFO : Machine : Shutting down...
2023-05-19 07:13:08,653 : WARNING : FAST : Port NET received more messages than were sent! Resetting!
2023-05-19 07:13:08,752 : ERROR : FAST : Stop called on serial connection /dev/ttyUSB1
2023-05-19 07:13:08,752 : ERROR : FAST : Stop called on serial connection /dev/ttyUSB3
2023-05-19 07:13:08,753 : ERROR : FAST : Stop called on serial connection /dev/ttyUSB0
2023-05-19 07:13:08,756 : ERROR : Machine : Runtime Exception
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/game/.local/lib/python3.6/site-packages/mpf/core/machine.py", line 797, in run_loop
raise self._exception['exception']
File "/usr/lib/python3.6/asyncio/events.py", line 145, in run
self._callback(*self._args)
File "/game/.local/lib/python3.6/site-packages/mpf/core/utility_functions.py", line 767, in raise_exceptions
future.result()
File "/game/.local/lib/python3.6/site-packages/mpf/platforms/base_serial_communicator.py", line 182, in socket_reader
self._parse_msg(resp)
File "/game/.local/lib/python3.6/site-packages/mpf/platforms/fast/fast_serial_communicator.py", line 407, in parse_msg
if msg.decode() not in self.ignored_messages:
UnicodeDecodeError: 'utf-8' codec can't decode byte 0xbf in position 0: invalid start byte

---

Either trash on the USB comms link, or some stall/timeout set too low for comms to happen, on fast or nuc side..

---

Reported this many times, even offered to help code a fix .. Maybe sending to FAST folks they could reach to Damian to suggest fixes in this area..

Is it the right time to chime in, that you can replace the flippers with the $10 ones from pinballlife or marco as well, and have a good experience ? Also of note, the diameter of the shafts on the haggis flippers are like .5 - 1 mm less than standard (the reason the cawls cant tighten all the way). And also whomever made the flippers for Haggis used glue that disintegrates after a year or so (at least for celts) almost all at the same time all three flippers failed and left a large area of white dust everywhere.. I would not blame Haggis for this, but expect them to change suppliers at some point, and also the cost to individually ship flippers to the US to replace faulty ones is immense, shipping charges and time to do export/import paperwork..

But... Haggis playfield is a thinner plywood layer, with a thick polycarb top. Like 30% or so of the thickness is that polycarb.. Because of that I doubt the need for hardwood layers is as important.

I disagree that is the main factor.
What is the bill of materials.
Is a sheet of plywood that much more in AU as anywhere else.
It could possibly put an initial delay on orders, but once they got a stock of materials, is the cost of materials even significant versus the labor to assemble.

Their model was very clear:

Take deposits on games.
But also sell very many series tickets **
Use that initial money to seed their operation, and ramp to XX games produced a month.
By the time game 2 comes along, their cost of selling the games is now enough to cover operations.
They are doing reruns of games, so there is no large cost of artists, designers, etc..

If they fail I would contend, the inability to sell the series tickets, limited their ability to build out operations to produce games fast enough..

Plastic layer delaminated ? The plastic layer is separate / floating.. If you want to get into problems with that, i mean tnuts would be kinda nice to hold the posts in place..

Regardless - the location of business I argue is not any real factor here.
The model itself is, and needing ## or even ### series ticket holders..

.. But it is 18% desert ..

It is also 82% not desert. Australia is huge.. There being a desert there is a non-factor. Just means that there is a wide variety of habitat..

Whatever, USA is 10% desert, and an additional 15% arctic..

You also said de-laminated.. Which means there is a material with multiple layers, glued together, and one of the layers glue gave way and peeled / separated.. Sort of suggesting de-lamination caused separation, as opposed to warping of one of the layers. Or if you meant the top poly was wearing, like iif a shiney layer delaminated..

In any case are there reports of this anywhere, ive not seen that on these threads at all.. Im not even sure one could even tell on this game, the poly is so thick, if there were some warping of the ply, its not going to affect gameplay, and only those looking intently from top are even going to be able to tell ...

Loose posts however, because of no T-Nuts - were a major annoyance for me..

But that did not happen with the material Haggis used. Even with the electronics in the cabinet as opposed to the head. And it got really really warm inside of Fathom. Further they covered the thermal expansion issues somewhere I recall. Where they said the posts were not supposed to be too tight to allow for the expansion to happen. In any case I think they took that into account when choosing this, which maybe innovative or a gimmick.

There are other reasons I do not care for this, especially in a higher use/played environment.

And if I end up opting to take the centaur, I do wonder if a more standard full plywood playfield is still an option. On their original order pages (Celts and Fathom), there was a stated build time option for this, that may of disappeared or may not longer be offered public..

If Haggis posts another video, they should not predict what they think they are going to be able to do..

Rather concentrate on what you have done since last communication or recently..

Here is a shot of the games we have in a box ready to roll....
Here is the progress we made on Centaur..
We progressed games code and testing internally..
We fixed our website so now you can see your past orders, deposits, series tickets..

Do that for as long as it takes to be in good rhythm..
Posting things done, will eventually build trust in people, that you are still there and working..

Bold predictions will stoke interest only a couple times when they fail to be realized..

Yeah I agree, needs to say something.. Probably good to not even try to excuse delivery misses, just say what you did are doing right now.. I mean I hope they are indeed doing something of course..

This sounds like the other game lockup issue. You can stick a formatted USB drive in the game. Next bootup after a bit it will copy logs to the drive. You should end up with many logfiles, one for each time the game started. Find the one timestamped about the last lockup, open the file, scroll to the end. There will be a stack trace at the end.. see if it makes any sense..

Also are you running latest code?

Why would you say that before, that podcast was just dropped 3 hours ago.. So you basically immediately said it ??

[replied to wrong post]

Did you replace the flipper button leaf switch, to the low voltage kind ?

The switches in the game we received and others, had high voltage contacts, this and several other oddities with flippers were caused by this..

.... from the other fathom thread ...

These are what I am ordering, main difference is these are made for low voltage systems, vs original bally needed high voltage leafs.

Low voltage dual stack flipper leaf - https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/SW-1A-192
Low voltage flipper switch - https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/180-5048-01

If you are comfortable using a soldering iron, will take a minute to swap the connector from the Haggis supplied ones to these.

For reference this is the dual stack switch shipped with the game ( https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/SW-1010A-13 )

Hey all, if anyone wants a deal / gamble on a Haggis Series Pass, I just put one up in the market place! If they do turn things around and you might want the new games, get the next four deposits for a huge discount..

Other - For Sale

Haggis Series Pass New ad!

“The next several Haggis remakes for a discount. The series pass covers the deposit on Centaur and the next 3 remakes that Haggis may do. Originally this was priced around $4000 - w...”

29 hours ago

Fairport, NY

Zukram

2,000 (OBO)

If one thinks they might squeeze out a few Centaurs and want one.. I'd probably accept even less than the deposit price on the Centaur..
I have emailed Haggis already on how to transfer to someone else.. Wonder if they will bother replying to this..

In any case, Ive put up quite a few games for sale with an attached forum thread. this is the first that actually got some posts..

It was night and day difference feel for me when i swapped these.

Are the contacts on the leafs different sizes Haggis orig to the new ones ?

Otherwise there might be something else also wrong.