Quoted from kklank:

I emailed Damian today. He responded.
I certainly wouldn’t share it on this thread.
Same old trolls. Not worth it.

Quoted from mjmpin:

I did ask Damain that exact question, but have not heard back yet. So thought I would inquire here if there is existing knowledge before I make my D/P decision
35- 50 / month would easily support a decent timeline. But if its 10-20 /mo then its clearly longer than we may be thinking
thanks!

Quoted from Mancave:

Are you privy to their actual financial status?? Speculation as per normal

Quoted from PoMC:I am considering buying a discounted pre-order spot. But can't pull the trigger until I get some info on when they are expected to ship. So I sent an email via their site and will wait for a response and post it here if I get one.
Anyone who says they don't mind losing $1000 is a fool (I don't have to qualify that and say it's "my opinion or speculation", do I?) Sure, I wouldn't "miss" $1000, but I sure as hell don't want to lose it and be labeled a sucker.
[quoted image]

Quoted from DakotaMike:

Wow d0n, I'm sorry to say it, buy you and flynn are being whiny little b*tches.
Oldskool getting to transfer his season ticket over to a single game purchase has f*ckall to do with you guys. The only reason you should care, is if you also have a season ticket and were denied your request to convert it. Otherwise, you're just complaining and stirring up trouble for the sake of it. Reminds me of the kid who tattles to the teacher about something another kid did that has absolutely nothing to do with them. Man up and get a life.

Quoted from kklank:Same group of Pinsiders that haven’t spent a flipping dime on Haggis are “expressing their opinions”.
They take zero risk but love to cry out when their pressed, “ hey I have a right to talk about Haggis and protect other Pinsiders because it’s OUR hobby’.
It’s comical.
I actually don't mind it initially but after a while you realize these same people just like to argue about any topic and prove that you’re wrong and their right.
Ya know…..internet trolls.
They love the attention.
Here’s what will happen next, if Haggis doesn’t end up coming through and folds, that’s when these same Pinsiders will come to this same thread and say I told you so. They’ll even take many of of your old posts and repost to show how much they were right and show the Pinside world you were wrong.
As if, nobody understands the risk of investing in a start up company. Again……completely silly.
Every startup pinball company has asked people to put down deposits to gain some new working capital.
Without people putting down deposits on startup companies and not just in pinball, many of these companies would not exist today.
This model will NEVER change.
And I’m okay with it. But I’m very comfortable taking on risk. Some others are not. And that’s okay too but you don’t have to be so argumentative and beat a dead horse with the same talking point.
It’s just not nice. Pinball is terrific and lots of fun!! Go play for an hour and then come to this thread and make a comment. I promise you, your comments will be nicer and you’ll maybe make a few new friends.
Let’s go Haggis!

Quoted from Pinballer31520:

Kaneda new patreon questioning invoices going out this early without any proof of real production.

Quoted from iceman44:It’s what the mini mob does. They aren’t happy unless they are crapping on somebody or something.
They obviously have some insecurity and self esteem issues or something

Quoted from d0n:

This seems confusing. I think games should be made from 1 - 250 and sold 1st come 1st served in that 1-250 order. The "game number" and "build number" being different is unnecessarily confusing. The build slot for game #86 should be #86.

Quoted from CubeSnake:

No, that's bi polar.

Quoted from punkin:

Many wrong one right, or one wrong many right? Who knows? Who cares?
Same time, same station next week for the answer.

Quoted from cooked71:

95% of pinside is a circular reference.

Quoted from Mr68:

Ok, let me apologize to everyone, including Kaneda for mentioning his name. I like him, I will defend him and I consider him a friend. But like with all of my friends, I speak my mind and we have disagreements. In fact, I think Kaneda and I share some personality traits and that's why he and I can irritate one another.
I appreciate all of his haters promoting his show with each mention, but I think its time to move along and get back on topic.
FYI. I'm also a proud friend with Flynnibus who is the natural enemy to Kaneda. LOL

Quoted from jkashani:

Interesting listen to grown men in a heated discussion about a pinball that some have paid for, some have not as of yet but no one has seen other than a prototype. Getting a fix ie. some kind of tangible information that the pin is being produced is a simple common courtesy on behalf of the manufacturer, especially when production is delayed. Hope everyone is happy in the end.

Quoted from cooked71:

Just the first line of his post would indicate he is just here for shits and giggles.

Quoted from punkin:

Kids. What are ya gunna do?
Ten depthcharges and fight the bouncers. My mate used to like to beat up the bouncers and then the drummers. Never understood why, but he hated drummers.
AndBouncersPunkin

Quoted from blueberryjohnson:

Just realizing this thread must be a guerilla marketing campaign for a future Happy Days pin because it has totally jumped the shark.

Quoted from PinballManiac40:That happens a lot in the pinball industry/hobby.

Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Not thinking about Haggis right now because they don’t fit this category, but when a person has a ‘completed’ pinball designed, they usually decide to build it themselves, without any prior experience. So they start a factory and scale up a pinball company from ground zero. Then, if they are able to ship a few games, they exert effort to scale up further to be able to make 20 a month. That is a big stretch too. But all this effort to create and build a company from scratch, when they should have taken their complete design to someone else to make. Because after they have built their game, they should disband the company and close their doors. Does this sound like the right way to do things? Designing and building a disposable factory in order to sell a pinball machine and hopefully making money?
There are three companies to approach about contract manufacturing a pinball machine: American Pinball, CGC and P3. Certainly you could strike a deal with one to build it, without you having to create jack shit from scratch. If you can’t work a deal, then maybe your economics are bad. Alternatively you can try a non~arcade contract manufacturer, but then the designer must manage the outsourced process to completion. I said earlier the Haggis does not apply because their plan was to produce a five game series. So a factory will allow Haggis to roll from title to title and spread out early sunk costs. Also many tools and setup are common and needed for all titles. Also Haggis is building classic games with proven designs and then it is upgrading them further. Many great aspects to Haggis’ plans.
My hope from the start was Haggis would perfect their hammer tested playfields and would be cranking them out by now and starting to make playfields for other companies. Also they would have perfected building drop target banks, metal ramps and chrome plating. So why this need to start a pinball company, just to lose money? Starting a pinball machine company is dumber than becoming a farmer or opening a restaurant. You will work long hours, lose money and get into a mountain of debt.

Quoted from alveolus:

I nominate this thread for lowest signal-to-noise ratio on Pinside.

Quoted from Jace:

d0n if no one buys your spots, are you going to buy all those fathoms and have them shipped to you? Or do you think people will snap them up? Just curious.

Quoted from d0n:

why would anyone with a preorder want haggis to fail? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard on pinside.

Quoted from delt31:

So you actually got paid out already? 8900 profit flipping a spot has to be some sort of record. Especially getting one is still not a guarantee. Crazy

Quoted from kklank:

To me it’s all about the NEW CODE and the the new sounds/audio.
You’re getting a game with new strategy and game play which is huge.
This isn’t a CGC game.
Imagine a Monster Bash or MMR with new code, new set of rules and a new wizard mode that you could switch back and forth to the old version with the quality of a CGC game.
That’s what we’re getting by buying a Mermaid!!! Haggis is going to blow everyone away with this game. Just a matter of time…..

Quoted from d0n:

no... it's back FS now.

Sale fell through. Listing back up. No ploy. Game #175 spot just sold for $5k to a pinsider on the west coast. Game #71 is the last one I have to sell. If it doesn't sell, I'll take possession of the game and sell the NIB game. Some (quiet) flippers in this thread (who also have more than 1 spot) will be listing their Mermaids for $22k-$25K on pinside. That's a much larger profit than my $8900 preorder. I can't wait to watch this thread blow up when that happens.

Quoted from Pinchild:I just randomly watched Thunderdome last night which I haven't seen in 20 years. And here you guys are talking about Mad Max this morning.. Life is a Trip

Quoted from d0n:

And just how right some other people were :O

Quoted from Mr68:

Just got this into the game room the other day. Playfield, cabinet and backglass are all in great shape. Gonna shop it out with Titan silicone rubber and replace the color lightbulbs with soft white LED's all the way around. It will look fantastic when I'm done.
So why am I posting this here?
1. I will be placing my Mermaid Fathom next to it after it arrives.
2. I'm at peace with the Haggis delay and not interested in the panic babies.
3. I'm a shameless braggart.
[quoted image]

Quoted from Boof-Ed:

Edit. You know what, it’s not worth it.
Edit 2 may as well put it back in since it’s been quoted.
d0n for someone who’s trying to make a LOT of money by flipping fathoms you sure shit on Haggis a lot in this thread and on others that have hopes the game will ship soon.
I don’t understand why you have a preorder spot for sale at 4 times it’s value and then say the things you do? Wouldn’t you be better off pumping Haggis up?

Quoted from d0n:

I'm 55. Very handsome too. Thank you. This is my buddy T-Pain.
[quoted image]

Quoted from Cobray:

I consider pinside to be a large sampling of the pinball community and treat posts as such in every thread, not just this one. Sure having a deposit down on a game means you're into it for money, but I'm not sure how that somehow translates into being the only ones that can speak to the circumstances we are seeing with Haggis.
People put deposits down and were told the balance would be required when the machine was boxed and ready.. that is NOT happening. At what stage should anyone be concerned?

Quoted from flynnibus:

Meh... if everyone was wrong... I'm sure Rick, or any other number of insiders would be happy to correct people. Yet, they haven't... so I'm willing to bet on this horse.

Quoted from robm:

Its not a dick swinging contest.....

Quoted from flynnibus:

It’s an idiom - maybe you’ve not heard of it
Basically… sitting idly wasting time
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/standing+around+with+their+thumb+up+their+ass

Quoted from RebelGuitars:

I don’t see how it could happen on Celts unless there was a design change from his to mine.

Quoted from wiredoug:

yep i know ....
In the early days of 'Haggis' Damian was contacted by a custom pinball restorer here (a huge classic bally fan) about supplying their paintwork/artwork/printing/cabinets etc.
he taught a still "very new to pinball" Damian about these "old" bally machines, explained why he believed them to be the golden era and suggested there would be a market to remake these classics…
While working on Celts and developing fathom he setup a "bally" room with the machine options for the 5 series to show the rest of the haggis team so they could all be played and options compared
It will be interesting to see haggis future offerings now they're no longer working together and dont have the same experience backing them for the others in the series.
making pinball is hard.

Quoted from punkin:

Fuck. Cake?

Quoted from greatwichjohn:

I like wearing my Vegan t-shirt while eating meat! I am a meat lover, but my brother likes to be Vegan.
As for Haggis congrats on getting games out. Might of been a little harsh during their non regular update period recently. They have proven me wrong!

Quoted from greatwichjohn:

They do not want to respond or update here, or they would. Seems as simple as that, they might make or become another Dutch Pinball. Time will tell, & they are shipping games. If you are on insider group you likely know more than the rest of us guessing.

Quoted from screaminr:

For a second I thought you were talking about Timeshock .
Great game .

Quoted from Llabnip1972:

That's BS. Spooky takes credit card for direct orders. Your distro is greedy

Quoted from punkin:

Ace. I did talk to Damian when i got the machine and he said he'd have a think about my feedback, but it's not intuitive where the shots are. the inserts just have weird symbols instead of the mode name (i get that they are runes) but the lighting for the next shot isn't exactly AFM style flashing hit me. There's a few coloured lights on the playfield and you have to try and figure out what colour shot to go for. The callouts aren't much help either, they are rare.
It's probs just fine for anyone who knows the rules, but nearly impossible to figure out for a drunk, casual player.
Having it rely on the top scoop so much is hard too, it takes a tight combo to get that scoop, a tight orbit, hope it goes in the left inlane, then the exact shot off the top flipper to hit the scoop. Pretty difficult for average players.
It's a pity, such a beautiful game, with a fun layout, but at this stage, just not fun for a casual player.
I have high hopes though and it can all be improved with code.
Maybe a V2 code package Damain, with the standard code available for the purists?

Quoted from luvthatapex2:

Respect for not gouging!

Quoted from transprtr4u:

healthy outlook ....
there will always be another game !

Quoted from etien:

Made my day… staring at my mail box full time now

Quoted from Boof-Ed:

Bogans for those wondering.
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Quoted from TreyBo69:

The thing about string theory is you gotta understand that there are actually eleven dimensions...

Quoted from punkin:

Free, it's already there.

Quoted from Aqua1122:

So I just got my invoice and have a question. Is everyone really wiring this money to them? Seems fishy. I paid the deposit through PayPal (Damian’s account). Not sure why I can’t just do the same or pay by cc.

Quoted from rai:

I agree it’s just too bad that they want the money so far in advance. Especially when I see how quickly TNA is being made and shipped.

Quoted from Dwboca:Yall are considering paying 15k AUD?
I don't want bond for 10k Usd or really any other game for that price.

Quoted from Aussiepinwiz:

Has anybody got any intel about how many Fathoms have been shipped to date, and how many are currently being pushed out of the factory per week?
So we can start speculating about what Haggis' next pin will be, and when it's likely to be in production?

Quoted from Pinball-Wiz:Deleted post

Quoted from Cobray:

NOTHING surprises me in this hobby. Most if not all games are overpriced, and super rare/hard to get games will always draw a premium. I am thinking that $20K for an in-hand Haggis Fathom is an easy sell in the US market. Just like any other game, having one on-hand is GOLD at this juncture.

Quoted from Cobray:

Where and when do I send my full payment for my Centaur Platinum edition?

Quoted from Rjbdmdmd:So it's ok for Damien to lie about their timeline and request money? That seems much more entitled than asking for Haggis to deliver on their promises. I'm happy people are getting their machines but stand by my statement that people in this forum should be transparent and support their fellow consumers. The poster I down voted edited their machine serial number out. Why?

Quoted from waynetrane:Another one got wet right before xmas.
Thanks to Haggis for these ultimate build quality.
Merry xmas !![quoted image]

Quoted from Boof-Ed:

That’s only in attract mode. As soon as you press start the clown puke goes away.

Quoted from MT45:

My review is up if interested
Just LOVING this game ...
https://thepinballloft.com/
Fathomagical

Quoted from iceman44:

Sorry mate. I merely responded to the harassment YOU directed at me so move along. Weird
Do you recognize the guy named DoN?
Oh little man baby I just reported you too. You do your crybaby act in every thread. Lol

Quoted from Rjbdmdmd:

have you waited 2 years and invested money with no guarantee of receiving a machine?
what do you expect to pay in the 11th hour with zero skin in the game?

Quoted from Rjbdmdmd:

I've never considered pinball as an investment. Don't try to put words into my mouth. If you like to talk about investments pm me and we can chat. I wouldn't own a single machine if i was not financially secure.
With no risk on your part in ordering a machine from a boutique company', please clarify what you think is fair to pay ?

Quoted from punkin:

A lot of things can change in a year or two. Doesn't mean it was the intention.

Quoted from John_I:

Haha I was just thinking that even though I'm not buying a Centaur, it was nice to actually get an email from Haggis today! Over the last year+ I sent them ten emails before finally getting a response. Even when I bought my Fathom deposit way back when, the only email I got was from Paypal. I never even got a receipt or any acknowledgement from Haggis that I've bought a freakin pinball machine from them. I assume I will get an email soon asking for payment in full since I am one of the last Fathoms...
The things we put up for these crazy machines!

Quoted from punkin:

He may have been addressing pinball wiz, but it's childish all the same.
How can you live for decades and still think life is judged by how much money you have rather than the good you create in the world?

Quoted from punkin:

Money is a fictional, meaningless creation.
How can it be definable as a measure of success? It's an imaginary number.
If a pirate or a cartel member makes millions of dollars practising slavery then they are a success?

Quoted from punkin:

I have money, it's just numbers on a computer screen mostly. At best it's shiny rocks and pieces of paper.
My reality is different from yours and i am very grateful it is.

Quoted from Screwloose:

After a great weekend at Pinfest I visited Melbourne for a few days. Yesterday I was lucky enough to pay a visit to Haggis & had a good look around the factory. I really like what I saw. Despite space being a premium the factory is well organized with good systems in place to keep parts & materials supplies flowing through without interruption & good stocks of these items. Despite the lack of space the factory was clean & tidy as best as it may be with this type of production. They appear to have all the good quality machinery they need for production & the staff I observed working seemed happy & content at the job they were doing. There is a considerable amount of Fathoms in production either completed or almost completed. A dozen or so machines destined for overseas, boxed & ready to go. There is no doubt in my mind that they are well on track to complete all the Fathoms by the end of the year as Damian has stated.

Quoted from punkin:

I can't do it, but Scotty will be doing some. he won't show me bugger all until i unwrap it but the bastard.
Just these sneak pics.
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
He say's it's got sunset highlights, i say it's gold plated.
It's the sound system i'm most keen to see and hear. Sent him a pinwoofer bass speaker and he said he wanted to use much better quality.....

Quoted from punkin:

Cheers mate, i thought there were seven in the world, But Geoff Frazer told me they only did 6.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sunset-riders-owners-club#post-7821494
It's the most beautiful pinball machine i've ever seen, but when they rethemed Eight Ball they made them beautiful on the outside only.
It had a ghetto ply and carpet box with a car stereo and speakers in the cab. It's now got a high end sound system and is detailed inside and out.
Eight Ball 2 rule set, new boards etc.
Can't fucking wait to see it, it's been just over a year.

Quoted from punkin:

We have a few little events like that here too...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finke_Desert_Race

Quoted from bane:

Wow. Hard to believe that all these have not been manufactured and delivered yet. How long did it take from conception to execution to put a man on the moon? Maybe 3 years? Oh wait, COVID. Yeah, that’s it.

Quoted from flynnibus:Just from reading the owners thread - it seems his game isn't dead... he has problems with freezes and delays.

Quoted from punkin:

Self appointed sheriff.
Once you sell something, it's no longer yours to decide what happens to it.

Quoted from georgia:

#4471
1 year ago
What about now?

Quoted from Grantman:

I paid in full over 3 months ago and they can't even give me an estimate of when my game will be made (much less shipped to the US).
On a related note, if anyone in the US or Australia wants to buy my (still to be made) Fathom Mermaid for what I paid, send me a note. I can either transfer it to you via Haggis or have it shipped to you when it arrives in the US.

Quoted from Haymaker:

I mean...at this point who cares what Damien says? Would an update be nice? Sure, I guess, but whats he going to say that we haven't already heard and hasn't worked out every time previously. We're working on stuff, theres delays we can't control, pinball is hard, sorry every single thing we've said wasn't true before but this time it really really really is, ect. Unless hes going to show us a factory with workers diligently putting machines together or something, pretty much anything he has to say can be taken with a grain of salt.

Quoted from cliff_clavin:

Reporting to the mods seems very un-Australian.

Quoted from punkin:

It goes against everything to me, but the mods have made it very clear to me that i wiill be the one who gets punished in these exchanges unless i do exactly that.
If people are so fucking childish that they call others names because they are so poor at expressing themselves coherently then that is what we are expected to do.
If people do that to my face (they don't) the response will be different.
Fuck, there are people here with the mentality of 8 year old playground bullies who think misspelling someone's name on purpose makes them tough.

Quoted from punkin:

So you think it's perfectly normal to call someone a scumbag in a hobby based conversation then?
Wouldn't like your chances here without your constitution to protect you from such behaviour.
Most countries would call that uncivilised.

Quoted from punkin:

Our protections run the other way. We are protected against words and recognise that words matter. I don't think it's too bad and would never swap, you probs feel the same.
Just because you can say something doesn't mean you should.
Civilization is built on respect and cooperation.

Quoted from PinStalker:

It looks good, but it sounds better.....
The soundtrack is amazing. Kills TNA's music, and people go crazy for that one.

Quoted from Yesh23:

Sorry folks but this company is DOA!!!

Quoted from Stuieb84:

In terms of the "recapitalisation" description from Haggis, the below is what can be determined from public records of Haggis Pinball Pty Ltd (ACN 628 902 965):
* Damian Hartin is currently sole shareholder, no one else has equity in the company. I'm not posting the company structure screenshot as it shows his home address & I don't feel comfortable with that up here, as I don't want any risk to his safety.
* the personal properties security register (chattels protection) information shows that Haggis has quite a large number of trade creditors, with security over the company that are suppliers of parts. Each of these have what's called a "fixed and floating charge" of "all present and after acquired security" over the whole of the company. Essentially, if the debts aren't paid for supply of parts then they have the right to persue liquidation measures.
* the personal properties security register also shows that Haggis don't have a bank loan secured against the company as security. This doesn't mean that they don't have any loan/debts to a bank, it likely means thst any loans are very small, as a bank would not loan larger amounts without security (charge over company and mortgage registered on the lease).
* the company register shows that as of today at least, Haggis are still trading and are not in liquidation, or with an administrator appointed.
My interpretation of all this is that Haggis was funded mostly by cash, by Damian and without bank loans. For cashflow they have likely relied upon long prepayments, or paid-in-full wait times - essentially using customers/distros as an interest-free line of credit. For cashflow, they have also relied upon the security charges to pay parts suppliers. This business model can't last forever.
My interpretation (I could be wrong, it's only a guess) is that in order to fix things, or "recapitalise", it would require a big enough bank loan (which would involve deep enough assessment of their finances). Alternatively Damian could be intending to sell, all or part of his equity on the company to finance things (which would also invole scrutiny of his bookkeeping). Just a guess, based on public information, as I don't have the full picture

Quoted from Mishap:

Thank you to some folks who are rationally assessing this. To anyone using the term "Ponzi Scheme," (sigh) there are two huge reasons why this is a complete mischaracterization of this scenario. A: High quality products have been made and delivered, B: they are not giving early investors an indication of returns to generate interest by a larger number on future investors who are being sold something nonexistent (Amico is way closer to this while still not technically being a Ponzi Scheme). Being behind on funding and production while still producing is not a Ponzi Scheme, full stop.
This is a company that, like many small companies, had based their outlook on the best possible scenario, had setbacks, and now appears out of their depth on how to proceed best. Clearly the most glaring issue is the paid in full customers who are still waiting, for which there is little excuse, particularly when later orders have been filled. Personally, I have a Fathom, and have put down a deposit on a Centaur, which I did so expecting delays (thinking maybe fall or winter production at the time I paid), so I'm a nice balance of satisfied and nervous.
The future of things getting better/closing shop is likely tied to how leveraged the company is. If the thought was to do everything with cash reserves and then cycle sales without taking on significant loans or debt, "recapitalize" is a perfectly acceptable verb, either through loans or equity sales, and provided lessons were learned, the company could be in decent shape after getting through Centaur production. If things are already at a high leverage point, it's a lot tougher since the money can't come from anywhere but customers or more dangerous short-term loans, and as we know, customer dollars are a tough sell at the moment.
I very much hope things work out. I also think this the the wrong company to schaudenfraude troll, but it's absolutely fair to be frustrated if you have the proverbial skin in the game.

Quoted from pookycade:

I think this is the challenge of all startups that build something, not just pinball. It is exceedingly difficult early on to get scale and timing right, especially in bootstrap mode with no margin for error.
I don't think they have any responsibility to feed the pinside horde, but hopefully they are at least keeping good contact with those that have paid in full without machines yet in hand.

Quoted from Jarson:

Every time I contacted Haggis about my game after I paid and before it shipped I was responded to within 24 hours.

Quoted from CrazyLevi:

it is not well and truly dead, it's just well and truly stupid. I have no doubt people will continue to send these companies their money. "Hey I know it's a gamble, but..."
Don't forget people sent their money into Haggis in the IMMEDIATE wake of the spectacular collapse of Deep Root.

Quoted from jgentry:

Like I've said over and over. I hope it works out for Haggis and I wish them well. Attached is what I recieved mid January though requesting full payment for Centaur. Claiming production was about to start in weeks and mine would have been one of the first games built. Obviously that was not factual and that money would have went to trying to get another fathom or 2 built. If a company needs capital they can go to a bank for a loan or find an investor. I'm a customer and I do not appreciate Haggis trying to use me as something else.
I don't see a path forward for them. The pinball market has softened and most people that sent a deposit will eat it rather then pay in full for the games at this point. You would lose more by getting the game then by just washing the deposit and moving on. You have a builder that nobody trusts now. This ship has sunk.
[quoted image][quoted image]

Quoted from Ballypinball:

I am so tempted to buy some pre orders and lodge a default with the Courts and put Damien out of his misery.