Yes, build #, not game #. That's what I was referring to. My game number is #86, but my build slot was something in the neighborhood of 75, per Damian. Granted this was like 9 months ago or something. And that was to say nothing of when my game would actually ship, given that it would most likely be going on a container with other games. Haggis would obviously need to fill a container up before shipping.

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I wonder when Dr. John Cossin will get his game? He's permanently game #1, I believe for all Haggis titles. He had Celts quite a while before anyone else. Seeing him streaming his game, would certainly make me feel better.

This seems confusing. I think games should be made from 1 - 250 and sold 1st come 1st served in that 1-250 order. The "game number" and "build number" being different is unnecessarily confusing. The build slot for game #86 should be #86.

I think this trend was started with Jersey Jack, where you could request any LE#. Although I believe even with Stern they don't always build the LEs in order.

That never happens, in any industry. You think #035 of some super exotic Ferrari is actual #035 off the line?

The order number and game number offset is simply the invoicing system used by Haggis. An order number is generated each time an invoice to a customer is raised. There were orders for Celts and Haggis Clan memberships processed prior to Fathom being announced and orders taken. This was what Damian explained to me sometime last year when I placed my Fathom order.

No, that's bi polar.

Bi polar sells. Imagine quad polar!

PM me for that Ultraman

Fathom ME #233. I’m in for the long haul. It will be worth the wait.

ready for tpf

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This thread is so much better now that I see people quoting "Ignored user comment". I highly recommend blocking people that piss you off!

So maybe a dumb question but I’m catching up on all this…..

Are you guys who are in on this game going through a distributor or does the money go to Haggis directly?

most of the vested buyers are though haggis directly. GAP sold some spots they purchased, so a few people are thought them. I don't know of any other distributors who have sold spots but flip n out took celts to pinCincinnati.

Distributor for this one

OK - thanks for the info.

I’m an alien buyer, OG and now PB and both times through cointaker. Never felt concerned b/c Melissa was involved and held on to my money until product was verified and even then, if it went sideways, she’s supporting me. I have to admit that this game looks gorgeous and is likely a dream come true for some of the older guys along with younger ones that appreciate classics. For me, I wouldn’t be concerned at all if I was going through a distributor. If I was paying direct - well, that’s a different story. The fact pattern alone (many missed deadlines, no mass production pictures and now pay in full invoicing showing up for people that are 70+ in, etc) would cause those “common sense” alarms to be going off in my head.

Well best of luck to all that are committed and I hope to see more coming out of Haggis in these next few weeks. 8 weeks will go by in a blink of an eye.

the capital call has been for lower number orders and season ticket holders. I'm number 116. my level of concern is low at this stage. if in 8 weeks we see
more capital calls and no machines, we will definitely have more room for concern and discussion.

That's definitely a confidence builder, but don't forget DP got some Lebowskis out the door before they went under, same with HP and Alien. That shiester Andrew Highway was literally telling customers their Alien was "ready to ship" and collecting PIF up to when he folded. Not equating this situation to those. Just saying there's some risk regardless. Fingers crossed you guys all get your Fathoms and this company makes it.

I'm ready to get off the fence. Once I see Mermaids arriving in the USA in numbers, I'll be ordering a Classic Edition.

Some of us are going to have to give Haggis some money some time soon if we want to see games. I'm in business, in Australia, and I know the problems we are facing... particularly, shipping costs. I believe Haggis will struggle to make a profit at the current price point. If the same machine was offered today they would have to be 2k -3k more. It's just not viable otherwise. And you guys on here that possess the business minds know that. You have made very sound financial comments.

I'm listening to news reports over here saying that America is heading towards 10% inflation. WTF? There is an old saying here... If America sneezes we catch the cold. I can see we will be paying 20k for Sterns by Xmas at that rate.

And I wonder... If Damian were to swallow his pride, turn round & say "Sorry guys... I but I am going to need to increase the price per machine to get them built or I will go under." How many of you guys will accept the "State of the Nation" & accept a price increase?

What does the fine print say when you deposit?

Not sure what you are banging on about here? If you paid a deposit for a fixed price item then that will be honoured.Now the shipping scenario within Oz is vastly different to shipping from overseas.This I know as I have purchased a machine from the Us and air freight was three times higher than twelve months ago.Remember also it was FREE shipping within Australia with Haggis.

Fine print is really just for the court case.

i think it says something along the lines of... "blah blah blah..... If something like a fucking pandemic changes the world, I reserve the right to change the price."

Sure will.... If they are still in businees.

What I am banging on about is.... If it's no longer viable to make the product for the original fixed price, due to unforeseen circumstances, such as massive increases in the cost if shipping, the cost of materials & the delays, & the labour situation, do I, the manufacturer, after sinking everything I have into the venture, attempt to renegotiate the price with the stakeholders, or do I shut the doors, go home & sit on the lounge in my slippers with the deposits long gone in rent, wages, & boxes of parts to sold in the upcoming auction.

Yes and a heap of Made games and spares

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I mean, they are still selling new Celts for like $7k USD on their website, not including shipping. If Haggis' costs were skyrocketing as you say, then I'd have thought that they would have increased the price on those. So maybe their costs haven't gone up as much as you think?

No pictures of production. Maybe April 1, only 1 week away.

Pretty sure they just haven't updated the website in a while. I asked Damian about getting a Celts and he said they were done making them for now but may do another short run of them in the future after all the Fathoms.

I mean, as of 2 months ago, I could have ordered a Celts through FlipNOut for 7k plus shipping. And that was coming from Australia, not his showroom. So Haggis definitely chose to keep newer-built Celts priced at 7k. Which they wouldn't do if they were building them at a loss, or razor-thin margin.

Honestly, for all the folks asking for a picture of the production line, do you know a lot of private manufacturers that do that? As an example IKEA has never disclosed anything about manufacturing and logistic. Sometimes I wonder if some trolls around are either paid by an established competitor bothered by a new entrant that may cut its marging and/or would be entrepenors keen to learn from what haggis is doing. Looking forward my mermaid, happy about what I have seen on the video, and if it is in 1 or 2 years so be it.

If you already have all the parts on hand, playfields etc that were purchased/produced at previously lower prices and your not including free shipping then the margin would still be adequate.

Lots of pinball production is public. Funny how until recently with Celts & moving to the new factory stuff was shown. So far with Fathom 2 prototypes & 1 video shown. How hard is it to show Fathom cabinets, playfields, parts, & actual production line with some employees. Seems easy still to ask people for a shit load of money, & nothing to back it up except for the less than 100 Celts built. Almost the second quarter of the year for manufacturing with Haggis, end of Celts they say, & moving production to Fathom builds. You would think something would be shown, but I guess not.

Ikea doesn't take your money before building something and is an established brand this is one of the worst comparisons I've ever heard in my life

Forecasting a sharp slowdown in U.S. factory orders over the next months, even before the Fed gets far along with tightening. Thursday the U.S. Commerce Department reported the first drop in durable-goods orders in five months. Hint of what is to come? American money drys up, beside for the American oligarchy. Which is actually where the controls are needed. But alas a rule of law (wants & what can be gotten away with) not rule of merit, economics & ethics. So, more FAR Part 3 than good business practices.

Haggis is playing it smart. It should take its time. Quality is what will keep Haggis in business. Keeping to 80% capacity. Slow and steady has always finished the race. In business finishing first, kinda doesn't matter (intrinsic value/marketing). Staying in the race is all that actually matters.

Steady as she goes Haggis…even if it is a submarine.

Some info on Fathom 2.0 at the 51 min mark.

https://thepinballnetwork555350716.wordpress.com/2022/03/25/final-round-episode-53-chowder-league/

Cool!

As an owner of an original Fathom (greatest overall early SS pin imo) I have been following this thread from the sidelines from the beginning. As someone who got “deeprooted” I have taken an even stronger interest in Haggis and their 2nd title. I have been on both sides of the preorder fence so just wanted to share my opinion.

With deeproot’s RAZA and the benefit of hindsight, I was clearly thinking more with my heart than my head as I really liked the theme and art package and took the risk by sending my $500 deposit for a RAZA arcade edition…no regrets. My strategy was to minimize my financial risk, as the arcade editions had the smallest deposit required, and to be a late build, which the arcade editions were. I also didn’t add any options to keep the total cost down. Even back then when I was a deeproot supporter, which leads to the point, there was ZERO chance I would have ever sent them one dime more than my deposit until I saw others ahead of me receiving and unboxing complete and working RAZAs. I knew and made that decision from the beginning.

Back to Haggis…
Yes they have shipped some Celts so they are definitely NOT deeproot. However, asking for final payments when they have only shown a gameplay video of a prototype is not a positive sign that they are financially sound at this point in time. Hell, deeproot did the same exact thing with RAZA. Steve Bowden and Quinn Johnson did what Haggis just did with Fathom, which honestly means nothing.

So from the outside, thinking with my head and not my heart, it’s pretty obvious what Haggis has been doing and the position they are in. The preorder money for Fathom gave them the capital needed to build Celts and now they need more capital to build the Fathoms which is why they are invoicing those that sent deposits. This is a very slippery slope and not something I would do and would not have done with RAZA regardless of how much I wanted it. Haggis is basically upside down or behind the eight ball if you will. As much as Damian seems transparent and honest, I don’t believe for a second that he was being truthful with the Fathom production timeline when deposits were taken. The VERY premature Fathom remake announcement was a money grab to ensure their short term survival to at least get some Celts out the door. The goalposts have moved significantly time and time again since then. This is a very dangerous time for Haggis. That being said, some may want to send their remaining balance to increase the chances that their mermaid is built by giving Haggis the short term capital they need to survive. However, much more needs to happen to ensure their long term success. Bottom line, in my opinion Haggis needs to show much more than what they have before anyone should send any additional money to them. It’s just not wise, but it’s your money not mine so do as you please. I don’t want to come across the wrong way, just something to think about and to be cautious about.

To be clear, Haggis is not deeproot and Damian is clearly not that f*ck Robert. Haggis has produced a beautifully made pin as I’ve seen a Celts in person. I just hope those that have skin in the game with a Haggis Fathom think with their head and not their heart, especially when original Fathoms exist and can be acquired! I wish Haggis the best and I hope everyone invested gets to unbox a shiny brand new Fathom! Good luck to all!!!

…and as always take my two cents worth a grain of salt.

Isn't all this just a nice drawn out way to say what Kaneda has been saying for months now? You get 7 up votes for drawing it out with way more words than necessary and saying it "nicely"?

Mention kaneda and get instant down votes.

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Multimorphic just sold out their LE's of weird Al without a video of gameplay. JJP sold out their CE's and at least a thousand LE's of GnR without a gameplay video. Stern does the same thing.

But hey. Why ruin such a wonderful story with facts.

They've all been around for years... decades even. Haggis is proving themselves. You can't NOT see the difference?

Haggis sold out mermaids about a year ago... without a gameplay video too. They haven't shipped one yet though. P3 sold out weird al last week and are already posting pics of boxed games shipping out. Stern and JJP don't need to post pics of games shipping since we know it's a given.

Down voted

I’ve been sent my invoice for final payment and I’m really on the fence. The way I see it is the series games were to be made before Mermaids. If my game is going to be ready in 8 weeks to box then there should be some series games close or even built by now.
We just about saw every nut bolt and screw installed on celts and absolutely nothing on Fathom. There was no problem sharing the process before. Why is there now?
I will send my balance when I’ve seen some receive their series Mermaids or at least see them being boxed. That will get my confidence back.
I will say though I really want Haggis to succeed here.

Since I’ve never paid any attention to him and these are my own thoughts, my own experiences, using my own words…I guess the answers to your questions are no and no??? And I kind of liked the amount of words I used as I thought they were necessary to explain and share MY opinion…sorry you thought there were too many.

to do otherwise would be stupid and reckless.

So, basically we're all thinking the same exact thing except only a few are saying it. Your thoughts aren't unique or new or succinct. Nobody needs that many words to say ...Haggis should show pics of fathom being made, boxed and loaded onto containers before we send more money.

Never said they were…just sharing my thoughts.

GO HAGGIS!