(Topic ID: 292168)

Haggis Pinball - 2nd game = Fathom + Fathom 2.0 confirmed

By FalconPunch

2 years ago


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#2601 2 years ago

After much consideration…….I’m out. Good luck with what I’m sure will be a great machine, just haven’t enjoyed the process!

Alien LV here I come

#2602 2 years ago
Quoted from jokerpoker:

After much consideration…….I’m out. Good luck with what I’m sure will be a great machine, just haven’t enjoyed the process!
Alien LV here I come

That game is pretty awesome and about the same price. One went on location nearby last week!

#2603 2 years ago
Quoted from jokerpoker:

After much consideration…….I’m out. Good luck with what I’m sure will be a great machine, just haven’t enjoyed the process!
Alien LV here I come

How deep is the Alien LV backlog ? At this point if you were not already in on either of these months ago, its going to be a long wait for one.. In any case, Alien is a good choice, fun game.. PB is doing a good job supporting and production is happening..

#2604 2 years ago
Quoted from Zukram:

How deep is the Alien LV backlog ? At this point if you were not already in on either of these months ago, its going to be a long wait for one.. In any case, Alien is a good choice, fun game.. PB is doing a good job supporting and production is happening..

Secured one 2 days ago and found out last night they have just arrived in Sydney so no more waiting at all. Happy days

#2605 2 years ago
Quoted from mjalexan:

That game is pretty awesome and about the same price. One went on location nearby last week!

With our exchange rate Alien is more expensive here but I think it’s worth it. I’m happy with my decision.

#2606 2 years ago
Quoted from jokerpoker:

Secured one 2 days ago and found out last night they have just arrived in Sydney so no more waiting at all. Happy days

Oh hell yeah, nice! Then you should just get both! Going to be a bit of time for a Fathom!

#2607 2 years ago
Quoted from Zukram:

Oh hell yeah, nice! Then you should just get both! Going to be a bit of time for a Fathom!

Have CCRLE coming too so something had to go. I’m sure it will be great and I still get to play one as a mate has taken my spot and lives just a few miles away. Win win!

#2608 2 years ago

Is this going to happen or not? I have somebody fed up with the wait that wants to sell me their spot. I love the idea of a new Fathom but I don’t want to be a bag holder.

#2609 2 years ago
Quoted from Mad_Dog_Coin_Op:

Is this going to happen or not? I have somebody fed up with the wait that wants to sell me their spot. I love the idea of a new Fathom but I don’t want to be a bag holder.

It’s happening, I just jumped as I had a better offer.

#2610 2 years ago
Quoted from Mad_Dog_Coin_Op:

Is this going to happen or not? I have somebody fed up with the wait that wants to sell me their spot. I love the idea of a new Fathom but I don’t want to be a bag holder.

There are some here that believe it will happen and there are some here that believe it wont.
Does that help you?

#2611 2 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

There are some here that believe it will happen and there are some here that believe it wont.
Does that help you?

Not really. I like Haggis but things out of their control may have doomed them. I hope not but would totally understand if it did happen. The lack of current status has me concerned. It kinda feels like they are fighting for their lives behind the scenes.

#2612 2 years ago
Quoted from Mad_Dog_Coin_Op:

Not really. I like Haggis but things out of their control may have doomed them. I hope not but would totally understand if it did happen. The lack of current status has me concerned. It kinda feels like they are fighting for their lives behind the scenes.

Then you've answered your own question. This does not meet your comfort level. I strongly suggest you do not buy.

#2613 2 years ago
Quoted from Mad_Dog_Coin_Op:

It kinda feels like they are fighting for their lives behind the scenes.

Much like the Dutch Pinball project - their viability seems to hang solely on their willingness to keep funding things, and whatever their magical bank account is funded by. They both operated in the red with no real practical end in sight. Dutch was far worse because of the liabilities and sunk money. Haggis at least doesn't have anything like that baggage wise.. but really has no path to stop the bleeding. So it's all about how much money you have access to keep it functioning.

I'm not suggesting Haggis is at it's end - but they certainly can't be anywhere near making things pay. Someone is still way in the red and it's still gonna cost a lot to get their head above water. It's a question of fortitude and resources. Hoping the Aus spirit is strong enough to power through this!

-8
#2614 2 years ago

Yeah, I'm sure you're privy to all their circumstances.

InYourHeadPunkin

#2615 2 years ago
Quoted from punkin:

Yeah, I'm sure you're privy to all their circumstances.
InYourHeadPunkin

You don't need to be in their head to know... NO SALES = NO REVENUE. Operating with no revenue = operating at a loss

10
#2616 2 years ago

The world is even crazier than normal at the moment!
Just about any luxury item are delayed or put on hold due to many varying factors. More comms would be nice for all , but I am glad he and his crew are very busy building a ball busting innovative Australianproduct and not entering into an online shit fight that forums can create.

A lil birds whispered about a social comment from Haggis soon?

Im still in with 100% confidence and already being a proud owner of Celts, I know what to expect.

p.s. Please kick like to my post or I will be offended

#2617 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

You don't need to be in their head to know... NO SALES = NO REVENUE. Operating with no revenue = operating at a loss

Quoted from MJK-911:

Haggis is paid in full-DHL Air cost $1350.00 , hopefully I will receive my Purple Celts by April 1st. Then its another wait with Haggis for Fathom Mermaid Edition!! ( Wish they would show a working example tho) Go Haggis!!!!

This was posted in the last few days.

MoronSay'sPunkin

#2618 2 years ago
Quoted from jokerpoker:

After much consideration…….I’m out. Good luck with what I’m sure will be a great machine, just haven’t enjoyed the process!
Alien LV here I come

How are you "out"?
You sold your preorder?

Nevermind,,, I see a few posts later you explained.

#2619 2 years ago
Quoted from punkin:

This was posted in the last few days.

You really need this written out in crayon for you?

They aren't cash positive shipping half a dozen celts a month.

A handful of celts a month doesn't pay the bills let alone fund the effort needed to build the next thing to sell. You need capital to fund operations until volumes gets sufficient.

Trickling out celts isn't keeping Haggis afloat.

#2620 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

You really need this written out in crayon for you?

They aren't cash positive shipping half a dozen celts a month.

A handful of celts a month doesn't pay the bills let alone fund the effort needed to build the next thing to sell. You need capital to fund operations until volumes gets sufficient.

Trickling out celts isn't keeping Haggis afloat.

Are you privy to their actual financial status?? Speculation as per normal

12
#2621 2 years ago

It is obvious they are burning cash to stay afloat. The real question is how much is left in the hopper. It isn't ideal - that is for sure. I wish them well, but these are tough times.

#2622 2 years ago

I love apophenia as much as the next guy... but it will never cease to amaze me how people write with such certainty on topics they simply do not have enough information to come to the conclusions they are coming to.

Just adding a "I suspect", or "in my opinion", would make you look that much more... I don't know... reasonable?

13
#2623 2 years ago
Quoted from Mancave:

Are you privy to their actual financial status?? Speculation as per normal

The great thing is math works the same everywhere… some just refuse to acknowledge it.

When you have really big numbers verse very small numbers, you don’t need precision or insider knowledge. Rent, utilities, etc are pretty universal.

Haggis doesn’t live in an alt universe where overhead doesn’t exist and inventory is free.

The saying “time is money” still applies. Every day costs them money. And unless they are also some underground arms dealer… we have a general sense of what their sales are.

#2624 2 years ago
Quoted from Mancave:

Are you privy to their actual financial status?? Speculation as per normal

Weve been able to see this story replay over and over if you have been on pinside long enough. I personally dont know enough about Haggis, but if precedent is any guide, I would not order until they have pins on the showroom.

#2625 2 years ago

Imagine a world in which Haggis never mentions Fathom mermaid until … all game parts were received, game is fully coded and UL certification was in hand. That day might be April 1, 2022. Now imagine Haggis announces the game is on their line and it is ready to buy. Go on imagining Damian giving us comprehensive updates every month. Now come back to the real world where you have been misled and given ZERO useful information. All EVERYBODY is asking for is an update. Why so afraid? Game will come out when it comes out, we’d like Damian to communicate along the way.

#2626 2 years ago

Every startup pinball company (with exception of Deeproot) is undercapitalized. The problem here is that even if they take the orders, even if they get deposits, it still doesn’t solve the capital shortfall. Gonna go to a bank with orders in hand ? Good luck, they only fund companies with 3 years of profitable books and only to the amount justified by the recorded profit. You get squeezed. All these orders, not enough capital to employ the people to make them or buy the parts. And so you fail. I am not saying Hagis will or will not fail here, I just understand their predicament quite well. Pre orders solve many problems for a young company but cause many others. And the lesson is no matter when you think you can deliver multiply it by 3-5X because you haven’t even begun to imagine the manufacturing challenges you face. I wish them good luck. And I don’t know why when we see these dilemmas arise time and again we act surprised. This is basic startup company 101, no matter the people, the industry, the product. It is in fact almost better to have no demand for your product initially so you can scale resources over time and achieve fixed capital expenses to lower marginal costs. Spooky did it right, but they also got a bit lucky in timing, people, demand, etc.

#2627 2 years ago

Interesting that the game list for TPF shows a Celts on the floor and the exhibitor is "Haggis Pinball"... so they would seem to have an official presence there this time?

#2628 2 years ago
Quoted from pookycade:

Spooky did it right, but they also got a bit lucky in timing, people, demand, etc.

Spooky also worked in a business incubator, with mostly free labor, with other incomes feeding their families. They had a lot of subsidies, but more critically the leadership had the mindset of sustainability and built the customer loyalty that made it possible to sell the capacity they had. They kept 'right sizing' and ensured their expenses were kept in track with their potential revenues. That took a lot of constraint and I think it really projects the idea that Charlie wanted a lasting business for him and his family, not just a job. He took a massive risk, he pushed through the dark times, but stayed true even when utopia looked like it was right around the corner.

Both Spooky and Haggis have taken on the gargantuan task of learning how to engineer a pinball machine for production and real field use. It takes a lot of time and a lot of 'lessons learned the hard way'. This takes time and iterations. The great part is Damien's displayed optimism and curiosity really sets him up to power through (and enjoy!) those kinds of evolutions.

But once you move past 'experiments' and take on real liabilities like equipment leases, building leases, employee expectations, inventory, etc.. it's no longer a curiosity but an obligation to see things through to the critical milestones. That obligation takes financial resources, fortitude, and the honesty to face real assessments of where you really are, and what the outcomes look to be. That's the part where 'reality hits' and too many either lack the resources to get through it, or leadership refuse to face the realities and make choices that can lead to ruin (Deeproot, Heighway, JPOP).

I have been very optimistic about the general approach Haggis took, iterating through Celts and landing the remake angle. I didn't think they'get the product right at first (just like just about everyone!), but they would continue to iterate and improve. The initial plan for 50 games a month sounded really optimistic, but not unobtainable. If they invested in the people, space, and runway they could do it. But their sizing of things since then really feels they are wayyyy behind those initial ambitions.

I'm sure they are pounding through trying to get complete games together and show they can get them out the door. I just hope their backing has the same optimism and resolve Damien has shown.. so they can keep pressing forward and break through!

#2629 2 years ago
Quoted from parsonsaj:

Interesting that the game list for TPF shows a Celts on the floor and the exhibitor is "Haggis Pinball"... so they would seem to have an official presence there this time?

They were at TPF in 2019 with, as I seem to recall, a whitewood of Celts.

#2630 2 years ago
Quoted from Clytor:

They were at TPF in 2019 with, as I seem to recall, a whitewood of Celts.

They had the whitewood there in 2018. In 2019, they had a working prototype.

-1
#2631 2 years ago

If i loose $1000 then i will only have made $10's of thousands of dollars buying and selling pinball machines in the last 12 months.

Making money on pinballs is not my business, i sell stills.
But nevertheless i bought a game in December 2020 for 12k. There is one the same listed for sale here at $18k and it will sell at that price too. I sold one recently for another $6k profit.

I knew the risks when i went in and i don't think they are any greater now they actually have started making pinball machines. If Haggis did not make my Fathom or refund my money i'll still be a mile in front on pinball and i don't have to many other hobbies i can say that about.

Wish i still had all the money i've spent on boats and fishing gear or firearms.

GO HAGGIS!

#2632 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Spooky also worked in a business incubator, with mostly free labor, with other incomes feeding their families. They had a lot of subsidies, but more critically the leadership had the mindset of sustainability and built the customer loyalty that made it possible to sell the capacity they had. They kept 'right sizing' and ensured their expenses were kept in track with their potential revenues. That took a lot of constraint and I think it really projects the idea that Charlie wanted a lasting business for him and his family, not just a job. He took a massive risk, he pushed through the dark times, but stayed true even when utopia looked like it was right around the corner.
Both Spooky and Haggis have taken on the gargantuan task of learning how to engineer a pinball machine for production and real field use. It takes a lot of time and a lot of 'lessons learned the hard way'. This takes time and iterations. The great part is Damien's displayed optimism and curiosity really sets him up to power through (and enjoy!) those kinds of evolutions.
But once you move past 'experiments' and take on real liabilities like equipment leases, building leases, employee expectations, inventory, etc.. it's no longer a curiosity but an obligation to see things through to the critical milestones. That obligation takes financial resources, fortitude, and the honesty to face real assessments of where you really are, and what the outcomes look to be. That's the part where 'reality hits' and too many either lack the resources to get through it, or leadership refuse to face the realities and make choices that can lead to ruin (Deeproot, Heighway, JPOP).
I have been very optimistic about the general approach Haggis took, iterating through Celts and landing the remake angle. I didn't think they'get the product right at first (just like just about everyone!), but they would continue to iterate and improve. The initial plan for 50 games a month sounded really optimistic, but not unobtainable. If they invested in the people, space, and runway they could do it. But their sizing of things since then really feels they are wayyyy behind those initial ambitions.
I'm sure they are pounding through trying to get complete games together and show they can get them out the door. I just hope their backing has the same optimism and resolve Damien has shown.. so they can keep pressing forward and break through!

Bingo. I completely agree with Fynnibus's assessment. And I also agree with many of the skeptical comments Pinside has made.

As a Fathom deposit holder, I am not enjoying any of the silence or delays. And the longer this drags on the more concerned I get. But I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet especially over a small deposit amount.

Quoted from Clytor:

They were at TPF in 2019 with, as I seem to recall, a whitewood of Celts.

Quoted from SKWilson:

They had the whitewood there in 2018. In 2019, they had a working prototype.

TPF still has the prototype as Haggis gifted it to the show rather than ship it back.

-12
#2633 2 years ago

All this time i could never figure out the point of coming on here and repetitively bleating about Haggis on here and asking for updates but not from the people who can provide them.

I finally figured it out, you guys like Flynnibus and Jeffspinball just want the superiority feeling of being able to say i told you so and walk around feeling taller.

download (15) (resized).jpgdownload (15) (resized).jpg

That's really pathetic.

26
#2634 2 years ago
Quoted from punkin:

All this time i could never figure out the point of coming on here and repetitively bleating about Haggis on here and asking for updates but not from the people who can provide them.
I finally figured it out, you guys like Flynnibus and Jeffspinball just want the superiority feeling of being able to say i told you so and walk around feeling taller.
[quoted image]
That's really pathetic.

You've clearly not been around long in the pinball hobby. People care because a lot of people have been ripped off over the last 10+ years by companies like Zidware, Skit B, Heighway, Deeproot, etc. Usually, lack of communication and updates is the first sign of issues behind the scenes. I've seen it happen time and time again - and lack of communication is always the first sign. I think people who placed deposits have every right to ask for updates. I also think people who put money into an upstart pinball company with no track record also need to 100% be ready to lose their deposits. Companies that rip off the pinball community are bad for the hobby.

You personally don't need an update, fine. Why you are so annoyed that others want an update is beyond me - don't see the big deal. As someone who doesn't have skin in the game, but doesn't want to see people get screwed again, I am curious for an update too.

I followed Haggis on YouTube for quite a while, and enjoyed watching their progress. Damien seemed to take pride in the communication and visibility. I hope for the best here, and hope everyone who put money into this gets their games!

#2635 2 years ago

Still looking to pick up anyones deposit on a mermaid if they want to get out

-8
#2636 2 years ago

As you addressed me i will tell you once again.

I am not in any way in opposition of people wanting updates.

I am in opposition to having to come here and see people slandered, and a bunch of people with no skin in the game, as you put it, bleating over and over when they could just ask though the appropriate channels.

i couldn't figure out why, but now i have.

Back to your bleating.

giphy (3).gifgiphy (3).gif

#2637 2 years ago

The old saying

" you catch more flies with sugar than you do with shit"

however you want to interpret this, go ahead.
Positivity breeds positivity, negativity breeds negativity.
Really looking forward to a Mermaid

#2638 2 years ago
Quoted from punkin:

All this time i could never figure out the point of coming on here and repetitively bleating about Haggis on here and asking for updates but not from the people who can provide them.
I finally figured it out, you guys like Flynnibus and Jeffspinball just want the superiority feeling of being able to say i told you so and walk around feeling taller.
[quoted image]
That's really pathetic.

Im calling it and saying I told you so right now. Damon will produce all the celts, Fantoms and the other four titles he said he is going to make.He will be like a Spooky level game producer for the next 5 years putting out a high quality game that people will love having in their collection.

#2639 2 years ago

Go Haggis!

#2640 2 years ago
Quoted from Meldenhut:

Still looking to pick up anyone's deposit on a mermaid if they want to get out

Smart man.

I'm calling it now too... Haggis will become a small, reliable player like Spooky. Fathom Mermaids will sell for double their MSRP within a month of them shipping. Their playfield construction will revolutionize pinball and all makers will start using it. Centaur will be their next game. Their "season ticket holders" number will skyrocket to a number greater than the number of limited edition games they produce.

#2641 2 years ago
Quoted from punkin:

I would not believe one word i heard from Cointaker.

How so? I didn't see this before I placed a major order with them.

#2642 2 years ago

Pretty sure it was explained in the post below mine.

#2643 2 years ago
Quoted from fixintoplay:

How so? I didn't see this before I placed a major order with them.

You'll be fine

#2644 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:But also apparently willing to say something, just to have something to say. Melissa overloads herself and loses track of conversations, prior commits, and will have stories that just don't hold up. It's unfortunate as I don't think it's ill intended, but the track record is there -- reliability and follow-through are weaknesses.

You have my attention.

#2645 2 years ago
Quoted from punkin:

If i loose $1000 then i will only have made $10's of thousands of dollars buying and selling pinball machines in the last 12 months.
Making money on pinballs is not my business, i sell stills.
But nevertheless i bought a game in December 2020 for 12k. There is one the same listed for sale here at $18k and it will sell at that price too. I sold one recently for another $6k profit.
I knew the risks when i went in and i don't think they are any greater now they actually have started making pinball machines. If Haggis did not make my Fathom or refund my money i'll still be a mile in front on pinball and i don't have to many other hobbies i can say that about.
Wish i still had all the money i've spent on boats and fishing gear or firearms.
GO HAGGIS!

Good for you

#2646 2 years ago
Quoted from fixintoplay:

You have my attention.

When I dealt with Cointaker for the original Alien debacle, I would get a different story every time I asked for the delivery date. I then proceeded to follow up weekly as I was getting really bad vibes about Heighway. Turns out she was simply parroting everything that Andrew was telling her. Frankly, even though she wasn't being untruthful, my credulity was strained. Do I think CoinTaker are good people to deal with? Yes. They were screwed by Andrew just as everyone else was. My main concern was that there was NO fact-checking done re: Andrew and his BS. She took his word as Gospel and that was foolish.
Back to Fathom. Do I think people will see it in 2022? Nope. Eventually maybe, but not any time soon.

#2647 2 years ago
Quoted from d0n:

I'm calling it now too... Haggis will become a small, reliable player like Spooky.

I'm definitely rooting for them on this, hope you're right!

Quoted from d0n:

Fathom Mermaids will sell for double their MSRP within a month of them shipping.

I'm new here, so I'm not saying you're wrong, but why would they? Original Fathoms sell right now for less than MSRP of either Haggis editions. Rarity, ok, the Mermaids will be more rare than an original. But I guess I don't get it. It's still just Fathom with a couple new neato features like LCD screens and 2.0 code, right? If I wanted a Fathom*, I think I'd rather keep my eye out for an old one, so there must be something I'm missing here!

Anyway, lots of luck to Haggis! I hope there will a Celts on location in my area soon, and I look forward to all of you here crowing about your Mermaids when they arrive.

*I don't want a Fathom, so maybe that's the entire problem

#2648 2 years ago

What happened with mermaids in my opinion is that the price was set over a year ago at $8995 USD. It was set too low for a premium limited edition IMO. Since then covid has increased the prices on everything AND on top of that, the pinball market has EXPLODED. Nobody could have predicted all this back when they decided the price of haggis fathoms. I'm sure they're kicking themselves in the arse right now for the too low prices.

7 year old stern GoT premiums are now selling for $10K and more. Used JP LE's are $15k and up now. A used TNA is edging towards $10k. A GoT Pro just sold on ebay for $9999! A fluke, probably... but still!? I feel like a NIB mermaid priced at $15k right now would sell fairly quickly. I don't think we're done either. The sky's the limit. I know this is wishful thinking and yes I AM absolutely biased because I have 4 preorders.

#2649 2 years ago
Quoted from d0n:

What happened with mermaids in my opinion is that the price was set over a year ago at $8995 USD. It was set too low for a premium limited edition IMO. Since then covid has increased the prices on everything AND on top of that, the pinball market has EXPLODED. Nobody could have predicted all this back when they decided the price of haggis fathoms. I'm sure they're kicking themselves in the arse right now for the too low prices.
7 year old stern GoT premiums are now selling for $10K and more. Used JP LE's are $15k and up now. A used TNA is edging towards $10k. A GoT Pro just sold on ebay for $9999! A fluke, probably... but still!? I feel like a NIB mermaid priced at $15k right now would sell fairly quickly. I don't think we're done either. The sky's the limit. I know this is wishful thinking and yes I AM absolutely biased because I have 4 preorders.

You can order a fully loaded Celts atm new for $11kau

Fathom is $11.5kau

I know there's a bit more (indeed) in Fathom, but it's not insurmountable by selling add on's like toppers etc.

#2650 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

The great thing is math works the same everywhere… some just refuse to acknowledge it.

When you have really big numbers verse very small numbers, you don’t need precision or insider knowledge. Rent, utilities, etc are pretty universal.

Haggis doesn’t live in an alt universe where overhead doesn’t exist and inventory is free.

The saying “time is money” still applies. Every day costs them money. And unless they are also some underground arms dealer… we have a general sense of what their sales are.

Congratulations, you understand how business works..as do most in here i suspect BUT you are still not privy to Damian's financial status so it is just speculation!! Maybe he has a rich benefactor?? Ohh myyy i can't say that can i...i would be speculating

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