(Topic ID: 292168)

Haggis Pinball - 2nd game = Fathom + Fathom 2.0 confirmed

By FalconPunch

7 months ago


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12
#1651 46 days ago
Quoted from Damonator:

I'd love to hear how many pins they are currently making per week and when they anticipate Fathom production to begin (for real).

Folks, Melbourne, Australia - where Haggis is located- is still in the longest and strictest Covid lockdown that has happened anywhere on the planet. In about 3 weeks Melbourne will open up again and I would expect they can get things moving then. Cut them a little slack, I think they have done a great job so far in incredibly difficult circumstances.

#1652 46 days ago
Quoted from simbob:

Folks, Melbourne, Australia - where Haggis is located- is still in the longest and strictest Covid lockdown that has happened anywhere on the planet. In about 3 weeks Melbourne will open up again and I would expect that can get a serious tilt on getting things moving then. Cut them a little slack, I think they have done a great job so far in incredibly difficult circumstances.

I never said they weren't doing a great job - nor was I critical in any way. I just asked how many pins they are currently making a week and what the new timeline is.

My assumption is that there is *some* work happening since I'm seeing Celt deliveries and Damian is making update videos from the factory.

#1653 46 days ago
Quoted from simbob:

Folks, Melbourne, Australia - where Haggis is located- is still in the longest and strictest Covid lockdown that has happened anywhere on the planet. In about 3 weeks Melbourne will open up again and I would expect they can get things moving then. Cut them a little slack, I think they have done a great job so far in incredibly difficult circumstances.

From someone with no skin in the game I think Haggis continues to get loads and loads of slack. I'm certain I would have been more agitated if I had skin in the game. Communication is key and as long as those looking for updates are reaching out directly to Haggis and getting them then I think they're doing a good job keeping their customers informed. If customers aren't hearing back from them when they reach out privately and are only getting updates when Haggis post these videos then I think any thoughts shared to date in this thread are showing a remarkable amount of restraint.

#1654 46 days ago
Quoted from simbob:

Folks, Melbourne, Australia - where Haggis is located- is still in the longest and strictest Covid lockdown that has happened anywhere on the planet. In about 3 weeks Melbourne will open up again and I would expect they can get things moving then. Cut them a little slack, I think they have done a great job so far in incredibly difficult circumstances.

Of course the lockdown is understandable. I was surprised more-so at the preparedness to make a Fathom. I assumed everything had already been designed and working.

#1655 46 days ago
Quoted from dscapo:

Of course the lockdown is understandable. I was surprised more-so at the preparedness to make a Fathom. I assumed everything had already been designed and working.

Manufacturers often change or improve a design while building a machine. We have seen that countless times in pinball.

#1656 46 days ago

Everything is so literal here. The guy was outlining the unique challenges they'd faced and how they'd solved it. I don't recall him saying that's what they've been doing this week or last week, just that it's a challenge they had to solve.

It's smoke and mirrors misdirection. Look at this and talk about this and don't worry about that other stuff you've been saying.

He had no news to impart other than the numbers of Celts that have been done and those that are still to be done and the fact that after that they will be focusing on Fathom.

I'd like to know what the schedule is? Will they be doing Mermaids first or will they be doing them simultaneously?

The Celts numbers were interesting, that game is going to be really rare in the future. i didn't know it was such a small run, hard to see how it's paying the bills.

#1657 46 days ago
Quoted from Damonator:

I never said they weren't doing a great job - nor was I critical in any way. I just asked how many pins they are currently making a week and what the new timeline is.
My assumption is that there is *some* work happening since I'm seeing Celt deliveries and Damian is making update videos from the factory.

Just do the napkin math... they claim to have shipped roughly 25+ celts and claim they have another 20+ to go.

I think the bigger shocker is people expect them to 'switch to fathom' to mean 'start shipping games'. I think it's clear they

- Dont stock parts for their full runs up front
- Don't seem to be building sub assemblies for fathom yet
- Don't have finished fathom software to show off
- They love making cabinets first - which we haven't seen any of...
- Doesn't look like they have a ton of space for staging stuff...

So I would expect 'finishing celts' is going to lead to a long stall of 'starting fathom' before there is any fathoms going out the door.

#1658 46 days ago
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#1659 46 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Just do the napkin math... they claim to have shipped roughly 25+ celts and claim they have another 20+ to go.
I think the bigger shocker is people expect them to 'switch to fathom' to mean 'start shipping games'. I think it's clear they
- Dont stock parts for their full runs up front
- Don't seem to be building sub assemblies for fathom yet
- Don't have finished fathom software to show off
- They love making cabinets first - which we haven't seen any of...
- Doesn't look like they have a ton of space for staging stuff...
So I would expect 'finishing celts' is going to lead to a long stall of 'starting fathom' before there is any fathoms going out the door.

And they have (Was it 9?) less people now to do that than they had before... which is understandable... cause pandemic... but add it to your list

#1660 46 days ago
Quoted from Screwloose:

Manufacturers often change or improve a design while building a machine. We have seen that countless times in pinball.

I understand and I hope they do improve and modernize the design. This is a remake however, not a ground up re-design so I wouldn’t expect major issues.
I honestly feel like they have the willingness and capacity to deliver something amazing….

I just failed to see how this update was so encouraging!? I preordered my Fathom knowing in the back of my mind their timeline was a little too ambitious.
I felt with this last update that I put a deposit on “an eventual attempt” to make the machine, not on the machine itself.
We saw a cabinet back in May and 4 days ago we saw a rollover switch.
It’s gonna be awhile.

#1661 45 days ago
Quoted from dscapo:

I understand and I hope they do improve and modernize the design. This is a remake however, not a ground up re-design so I wouldn’t expect major issues.

Think of it as an 'adaptation' - It is not possible to do a straight remake because they aren't doing a 100% clone. They are copying the game design and implementing it in an entirely different platform. And since they notably use a different playfield concept, nearly every playfield part needs to be adjusted or reworked.

The good news is most things should not be climbing everest... the problem is there are a lot of small things to do! Given their timeframe they must have had most of these things already worked out. But interations, and actually sourcing for production are a different matter.

Before they were promising to hit the ground running immediately after celts. I think we are just seeing that Haggis' approach to production isn't nearly the same as we have been conditioned to with other vendors. Different spots, different needs and all... but any expectations of games flowing out a week or two after 'fathom production started...' seems like that won't be the way.

#1662 45 days ago

Life happens. If this is all we worry about, then i am sure we are doing just fine.
I know for a fact that they are building components for Fathom whilst trying to clear the CELTS line.
So it should be? a lot smoother for when the next build comes.
Me I am grateful for the the extra time, so I can keep saving money for whatever next comes!

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#1663 45 days ago

I will be willing to take over a Fathom Mermaid Edition if anyone wants to bail out. Will look great next to Celts

#1664 45 days ago
Quoted from MJK-911:

I will be willing to take over a Fathom Mermaid Edition if anyone wants to bail out. Will look great next to Celts

Believe you can still order. When I was on Nitro's site the other day he was still taking preorders, showing 7 available.

This machine appears not to be coming anytime soon so plenty of people will drop out with other titles coming out.

#1665 45 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Think of it as an 'adaptation' - It is not possible to do a straight remake because they aren't doing a 100% clone. They are copying the game design and implementing it in an entirely different platform. And since they notably use a different playfield concept, nearly every playfield part needs to be adjusted or reworked.
The good news is most things should not be climbing everest... the problem is there are a lot of small things to do! Given their timeframe they must have had most of these things already worked out. But interations, and actually sourcing for production are a different matter.
Before they were promising to hit the ground running immediately after celts. I think we are just seeing that Haggis' approach to production isn't nearly the same as we have been conditioned to with other vendors. Different spots, different needs and all... but any expectations of games flowing out a week or two after 'fathom production started...' seems like that won't be the way.

Do you actually attempt to buy games from new manufacturers or do you just like to share you knowledge and napkin math?

#1666 45 days ago
Quoted from kklank:

Do you actually attempt to buy games from new manufacturers or do you just like to share you knowledge and napkin math?

Let me guess.. you're the type that judges people by what they actually put in their pinside profile?

Isn't that cute...

#1667 45 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Let me guess.. you're the type that judges people by what they actually put in their pinside profile?
Isn't that cute...

No I don’t. Never have.
Are you the type of guy that goes through peoples posts and then copies and pastes them.
Wait a second, that wasn’t a question. That was a statement.
Are you hanging around waiting for Haggis to go out of business too?

I’ll ask one more time politely, do you actually buy new games from new manufacturers or just share your napkin math?
I think it’s only fair everyone knows don’t you. And maybe you could share your vast direct pinball manufacturing experience? Everyone would love to hear where it all comes from, especially me.
You must’ve worked at Bally back in the day or was it Stern? Pease do tell……

-1
#1668 45 days ago

It's interesting that Haggis has had to close. They are manufacturing, as is my business, and we didn't close.

I am actually in the construction industry side of things and even with the 2 week closure of this industry...we still didn't close.

Couldn't find an updated permitted industry so if someone does...feel free to correct me but the photo shows who can work and stay open.

I just know that a lot, A LOT, of small businesses are operating through lockdowns because...well...tbh...f*ck the government!
Untitled (resized).png

#1669 45 days ago
Quoted from jardine:

It's interesting that Haggis has had to close. They are manufacturing, as is my business, and we didn't close.
I am actually in the construction industry side of things and even with the 2 week closure of this industry...we still didn't close.
Couldn't find an updated permitted industry so if someone does...feel free to correct me but the photo shows who can work and stay open.
I just know that a lot, A LOT, of small businesses are operating through lockdowns because...well...tbh...f*ck the government!
[quoted image]

Haggis didn't close. Since they're in manufacturing, as you said. But the lockdowns still contributed to delays in other ways.

#1670 45 days ago
Quoted from DakotaMike:

Haggis didn't close. Since they're in manufacturing, as you said. But the lockdowns still contributed to delays in other ways.

Ah, sorry....I must have read where people said they closed....never mind then, lol.

#1671 45 days ago
Quoted from kklank:

I’ll ask one more time politely, do you actually buy new games from new manufacturers or just share your napkin math?

I buy what I want - Have I bought haggis? No, but I also was in the hobby for decades before I bought my first NIB... does that make me any less of part of the community? Or do you measure people by how much they spend in life? Are you checking everyone's checkbook before you let them post? We saw how great your judgement and ability to control yourself was over in the raza thread. You about ready to lash out at people here too for being informed?

Sorry the generalization of 'just listen to what the guy is saying' about how many games they've shipped and have yet to ship is triggering you.

Quoted from kklank:

I think it’s only fair everyone knows don’t you. And maybe you could share your vast direct pinball manufacturing experience? Everyone would love to hear where it all comes from, especially me.
You must’ve worked at Bally back in the day or was it Stern? Pease do tell……

I've worked in contract manufacturing as my family was in the business for decades. Father in law was also a consultant in the business who traveled evaluating and helping companies that were struggling or seeking optimization help. I've also been in product management and product development for decades. I know what it takes to build hardware and software products, get to market, and support them because I've done it. I've also built teams and been an individual contributor. I've also been part of startups, and am close with people I consider successful at that including taking companies from an idea to grossing over a billion a year.

But yeah, tell me again how you willing to throw your money at projects like RAZA makes you qualified over someone else or decide who can say what. The old trope of "only the buyers have skin in the game" is so ridiculous. Go away already.

#1672 45 days ago
Quoted from roar:

And they have (Was it 9?) less people now to do that than they had before... which is understandable... cause pandemic... but add it to your list

The less employees is a bummer... that kind of spending is usually a good indicator of someone's outlook. I just mark that up to the unpredictable forecasting they are facing in this current environment. Hopefully that kind of growth comes back once they get through the initial startup period and are just focusing on cranking out units. Tho his tone did make it sound like they had to rethink what their operating point would be. The good news is, good product usually leads to good demand.. and good demand leads to growth to fill it. I do believe they have the shot at building more demand once their product is out and in people's hands. The spot they are chasing is just too lucrative. I still think they will be successful at it.

#1673 45 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

I buy what I want - Have I bought haggis? No, but I also was in the hobby for decades before I bought my first NIB... does that make me any less of part of the community? Or do you measure people by how much they spend in life? Are you checking everyone's checkbook before you let them post? We saw how great your judgement and ability to control yourself was over in the raza thread. You about ready to lash out at people here too for being informed?
Sorry the generalization of 'just listen to what the guy is saying' about how many games they've shipped and have yet to ship is triggering you.

I've worked in contract manufacturing as my family was in the business for decades. Father in law was also a consultant in the business who traveled evaluating and helping companies that were struggling or seeking optimization help. I've also been in product management and product development for decades. I know what it takes to build hardware and software products, get to market, and support them because I've done it. I've also built teams and been an individual contributor. I've also been part of startups, and am close with people I consider successful at that including taking companies from an idea to grossing over a billion a year.
But yeah, tell me again how you willing to throw your money at projects like RAZA makes you qualified over someone else or decide who can say what. The old trope of "only the buyers have skin in the game" is so ridiculous. Go away already.

So the long winded answer is:
1. No. You’ve never bought a new machine from a new pinball manufacturer.

2. No. You’ve never worked for a pinball company.

Wasn’t that easy. Now we all know that you don’t have any direct experience, you just talk a lot.

#1674 45 days ago
Quoted from kklank:

So the long winded answer is:
1. No. You’ve never bought a new machine from a new pinball manufacturer.
2. No. You’ve never worked for a pinball company.

oh no... you've exposed me! I guess me and 98% of pinside just need go silent and wait for you impressive spenders tell us what we can think and do!! I can't wait to hear your next amazing judgement to pass...

#1675 45 days ago

So ahhh… Too soon to ask what’s next after Fathom?

-1
#1676 45 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

oh no... you've exposed me! I guess me and 98% of pinside just need go silent and wait for you impressive spenders tell us what we can think and do!! I can't wait to hear your next amazing judgement to pass...

I guess you’re talking about myself and mostly everybody else on this thread that support a new business. Not sure why that’s impressive but hey whatever works for you. You can do whatever you want. Not judging. Just thought it would be helpful for everyone to know your actual experience.

#1677 45 days ago
Quoted from dscapo:

So ahhh… Too soon to ask what’s next after Fathom?

Flash Gordon would be amazing!! I know everybody wants Centaur which honestly it doesn’t matter to me but that would be fantastic to get a FG.

#1678 45 days ago
Quoted from kklank:

Flash Gordon would be amazing!! I know everybody wants Centaur which honestly it doesn’t matter to me but that would be fantastic to get a FG.

Centaur would be the obvious home run. I know what I’d like to see eventually but I’m openly biased

-1
#1679 45 days ago

So what is everyone's top 5 games you think Haggis will remake? Not the games that you wish they would do but the ones that are most likely.

#1680 45 days ago
Quoted from dscapo:

Centaur would be the obvious home run. I know what I’d like to see eventually but I’m openly biased

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say a good indicator of games to come from Haggis is what CPR releases. They just did ebd, centaur and fathom.

Did anyone really think production of Fathom would start in July? Be honest. If you say yes, I highly doubt you’ve ever been involved in manufacturing and/or a new product launch, let alone during COVID.

Haggis showed a working game. The rollovers, maybe it was a new development but obviously they had something on the game they showed. If they’re still developing basic mechs needed for production, which I highly doubt, there’s a reason to be pissed. Taking preorder money without that initial level of validation complete is irresponsible at best. Otherwise this is another company making timelines without basis in reality and experience. Australia and VIC especially has been on the leading edge of COVID restrictions so the lockdowns are nothing new.

No, Haggis shouldn’t have advised July production unless they had celts completion within site and a pile of Fathom subassemblies waiting in the queue. But, you (preorder folks, including me) should be able to see that discrepancy and reconciled it before sending the deposit.

If update videos, intent, ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we’d all have a merry Christmas….in 2022. Spare me the excuses, I can make them up myself. Get it done. As long as Haggis’ runway isn’t too short, I’m still optimistic we’ll see fathoms. That’s the biggest concern to me, not if they can figure out how to make a rollover work on a 2-piece playfield.

#1681 45 days ago
Quoted from mjalexan:

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say a good indicator of games to come from Haggis is what CPR releases. They just did ebd, centaur and fathom.
Did anyone really think production of Fathom would start in July? Be honest. If you say yes, I highly doubt you’ve ever been involved in manufacturing and/or a new product launch, let alone during COVID.
Haggis showed a working game. The rollovers, maybe it was a new development but obviously they had something on the game they showed. If they’re still developing basic mechs needed for production, which I highly doubt, there’s a reason to be pissed. Taking preorder money without that initial level of validation complete is irresponsible at best. Otherwise this is another company making timelines without basis in reality and experience. Australia and VIC especially has been on the leading edge of COVID restrictions so the lockdowns are nothing new.
No, Haggis shouldn’t have advised July production unless they had celts completion within site and a pile of Fathom subassemblies waiting in the queue. But, you (preorder folks, including me) should be able to see that discrepancy and reconciled it before sending the deposit.
If update videos, intent, ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we’d all have a merry Christmas….in 2022. Spare me the excuses, I can make them up myself. Get it done. As long as Haggis’ runway isn’t too short, I’m still optimistic we’ll see fathoms. That’s the biggest concern to me, not if they can figure out how to make a rollover work on a 2-piece playfield.

A big positive for me was that they were only taking small deposits from customers, meaning most of the funding is from the owner/owners. They weren’t relying on pre-order money to setup the company. Clearly there’s been a big investment already. Whether it’s enough to get income flowing, we’ll see. But so far so good. I’m not too worried yet. And even if I was, $1500 (?) isn’t going to break the bank.

#1682 45 days ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

oh no... you've exposed me! I guess me and 98% of pinside just need go silent and wait for you impressive spenders tell us what we can think and do!! I can't wait to hear your next amazing judgement to pass...

Oh lord. Do you get off on stirring pots and creating unnecessary drama around here? It’s fucking pinball man. Press start and plunge for a bit, it’s fun.

#1683 45 days ago
Quoted from mjalexan:

I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say a good indicator of games to come from Haggis is what CPR releases. They just did ebd, centaur and fathom.
Did anyone really think production of Fathom would start in July? Be honest. If you say yes, I highly doubt you’ve ever been involved in manufacturing and/or a new product launch, let alone during COVID.
Haggis showed a working game. The rollovers, maybe it was a new development but obviously they had something on the game they showed. If they’re still developing basic mechs needed for production, which I highly doubt, there’s a reason to be pissed. Taking preorder money without that initial level of validation complete is irresponsible at best. Otherwise this is another company making timelines without basis in reality and experience. Australia and VIC especially has been on the leading edge of COVID restrictions so the lockdowns are nothing new.
No, Haggis shouldn’t have advised July production unless they had celts completion within site and a pile of Fathom subassemblies waiting in the queue. But, you (preorder folks, including me) should be able to see that discrepancy and reconciled it before sending the deposit.
If update videos, intent, ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we’d all have a merry Christmas….in 2022. Spare me the excuses, I can make them up myself. Get it done. As long as Haggis’ runway isn’t too short, I’m still optimistic we’ll see fathoms. That’s the biggest concern to me, not if they can figure out how to make a rollover work on a 2-piece playfield.

I hear what your saying but I feel like Damian was just trying to offer something new to talk about.
These star rollovers were probably made for Celts already as well no?
I’m not giving anybody a free pass but COVID shutdown has hit Australia extremely hard from what I hear in the news and staffing alone must be extremely difficult.
Regardless, they are moving forward albeit not as fast anyone would prefer including Damian.

So I do have a question. Are they remaking just old Ballys or how about old Williams games like Cosmic Gunfight?
I can’t remember what they said originally now.

#1684 45 days ago
Quoted from jardine:

It's interesting that Haggis has had to close. They are manufacturing, as is my business, and we didn't close.
I am actually in the construction industry side of things and even with the 2 week closure of this industry...we still didn't close.
Couldn't find an updated permitted industry so if someone does...feel free to correct me but the photo shows who can work and stay open.
I just know that a lot, A LOT, of small businesses are operating through lockdowns because...well...tbh...f*ck the government!
[quoted image]

As someone has already mentioned they did not close.I am in the construction industry as well and it really has been a struggle to get supplies of timber,trying to get a truss manufacturer to fill your order earlier than a six month wait,and even just recently I finally got stairs installed on a job that were due 5 months earlier!Covid has shot everyone to shit so it is no wonder a new pinball manufacturer is struggling to get parts from overseas.Just be patient and hope that our Dan does not decide to put the entire state into a curfew lockdown because someone dared to disagree with him.

#1685 45 days ago

As long as it’s not funded by little old ladies retirement investments I think we are good

#1686 45 days ago

I haven't looked in here in a while you all are getting quite grumpy.

I can offer no insight other than a magical word this morning.

COFFEE

#1687 45 days ago

I found it interesting that they are still taking more Celts orders and putting them ahead of fathom. It’s pretty obvious that they don’t have any assemblies, playfields, or major parts ready for fathom. Damien would have shown off the stuff if he had it.

#1688 45 days ago

Not sure why some are riled up at flynnibus.

I definitively want to see haggis succeed, but starting up anything has risk and if a business finds itself not hitting its plans it Can definitely cause financial struggles and that is a slippery slope that can lead to trouble. They have to have a cash flow forecast…. And I assume they have raised enough capital to support that forecast. When you are starting up, you are burning cash every day and need to ramp up revenue…. If revenue delays, you go further in the hole and may need to raise more capital.

So seeing Haggis miss their own projections (by a LOT, the timing miss here is big) puts financial pressure on them. Lots of expenses to cover every week… salaries, rent, utilities, maintenance of equipment, etc. from a $ perspective, having them shrink the workforce was a smart move to preserve cash if they are not at a point to produce more (or need at this moment whatever those employees were doing). And as he mentioned in the video, plenty of other real pressure as well… freight cost going through the roof, inflation on everything, can he get the computer chips he needs (if the big car manufacturers are struggling how does a small industry like pinball work through that).

Given what was shared it’s really impossible to know when we will see fathoms….but I would guess in for a long wait. From the video sounds like they are still very much learning (again, risk), so I would expect delays and thus additional cost for Haggis).

Great news here is that they have proved they can build games and get them out the door. That is great milestone, biput I don’t know if they are making money doing it and that matters. Need to be profitable to be an on going business.

We all have different risk profiles…so for some jumping in early with risk is ok, for others, they are risk averse.. so it’s more of a purchase when they can have the product. I look forward to seeing some Haggis pinball Fathoms in the world, because the world needs more fathoms.

#1689 41 days ago

An update for you guys that aren't on Facebook.

20211020_081153 (resized).jpgFB_IMG_1634681496139 (resized).jpg

#1690 41 days ago
Quoted from Micky:

An update for you guys that aren't on Facebook.
[quoted image][quoted image]

And some “shinny” fathom legs! Nice! It’s good to see the recent barrage of progress photos.

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#1691 41 days ago

Haggis posts alot of interesting stuff from manufacturing on Instagram.

#1692 41 days ago
Quoted from mtn-:

Haggis posts alot of interesting stuff from manufacturing on Instagram.

KristianiaFlipperselskap.Now that has to be the top scrabble scoring word of the year!

#1693 41 days ago
Quoted from mtn-:

Haggis posts alot of interesting stuff from manufacturing on Instagram.

That was a killer update by them! Thanks for reminder, they really hadn't posted anything since May.

https://www.instagram.com/haggispinball/

#1694 39 days ago

I’m enjoying these short manufacturing videos.

I’d love to see playfield inserts being made/inserted….metal being cut/bent/polished….backglass creation, etc.

#1695 39 days ago
Quoted from Damonator:

I’d love to see playfield inserts being made/inserted…

Don’t think they need to use inserts with the sandwich pf technology.

But agree, these vids are great. They truly are doing everything from scratch - and to a very high boutique standard. Lots of nice high end details.

#1697 36 days ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Don’t think they need to use inserts with the sandwich pf technology.

Turns out they do - must be to diffuse the light.

#1698 33 days ago
Quoted from mtn-:

Haggis posts alot of interesting stuff from manufacturing on Instagram.

Instagram ? How bout the Fathom 2.0 Confirmed Pinside thread ?

#1699 32 days ago

I know Celts doesn't have any rollovers.... I wonder what playfield they could be possibly cutting?

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=595163815246589&aggr_v_ids[0]=595163815246589&notif_id=1635541172621688&notif_t=watch_follower_video&ref=notif

#1700 32 days ago

Mmm…I wonder…..

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