(Topic ID: 292168)

Haggis Pinball - 2nd game = Fathom + Fathom 2.0 confirmed

By FalconPunch

7 months ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 1,767 posts
  • 263 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 10 days ago by oldskool1969
  • Topic is favorited by 89 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

unnamed.gif
Gogo Yubari (resized).png
what-if-i-told-you-your-a-selfish-bastard-that-doesnt-love-me (resized).jpg
celts2 (resized).jpg
9e58-183e-44ca-8de1-6e67074b7c84 (resized).jpg
68724431-ED80-408E-BBF6-9BCD4B751194 (resized).jpeg
E1E5B2DD-2743-48A5-8E6C-50BF98BE31D6 (resized).jpeg
FB_IMG_1634681496139 (resized).jpg
20211020_081153 (resized).jpg
Untitled (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
charlie (resized).PNG
3DFE62C9-2253-4BC8-9C68-AC08B0F05496 (resized).jpeg
PXL_20210928_020849388 (resized).jpg
20210918_170734 (resized).jpg
20210918_164900 (resized).jpg

There are 1,767 posts in this topic. You are on page 20 of 36.
#951 6 months ago
Quoted from gdonovan:

I played one game with a hardtop and vowed never to own a game with one.
He is utterly correct, the ball displayed some very odd behavior at times off the slings which I did not care for at all. It was very notable to me, I have not noticed this behavior on any of the pins I own with regular playfields, mylar protected playfields or clear coated playfields.
While I appreciate the product being available to the market, its not a product I would use personally so it isn't a weak argument at all.

I wasn’t referring to a playfield protector - I would agree that the height difference caused by a hardtop protector would cause negative effects.

I was saying the poly vs clearcoated wood physics argument is weak.

#952 6 months ago
Quoted from Damonator:

I was saying the poly vs clearcoated wood physics argument is weak.

It's not weak - it's accurate.

The question is in how much it matters to you at the end and what trade-offs you prefer.

#953 6 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

It's not weak - it's accurate.

Why? Because you say so? Have any objective proof? When's the last time you played on a Haggis poly pf?

I'm not a fanboy of the process but saying it sucks without even having tried it is pretty lame.

Wish they could make both types and then have some good players try side by side comparison.

#954 6 months ago
Quoted from Damonator:

I was saying the poly vs clearcoated wood physics argument is weak.

That is possible and I would defer having an opinion of a factory poly playfield till I actually played one but the negative implication is already there compared to a traditional playfield. Other people have noted it as well, so I'm not the only one.

#955 6 months ago

Six days to go with only a few spots left and they are headed to completely sell out all 250. I was really pleased to hear him say that.

I understand about people hesitating with the new playfield technology. It's human nature to be suspicious about things people don't understand. But these new playfields are one of the reasons I ran to Haggis and put my money down. That and I love Fathom.

#956 6 months ago
Quoted from MrMikeman:

Why? Because you say so? Have any objective proof?

Because I'm an engineer who spent many years learning the science behind it all combined with decades of practical experience in pinball, with access to some of the most diverse collections on this side of the planet.

I have not played a Haggis PF since they switched PF types, but Haggis doesn't live in an alternate universe. And what Haggis is doing isn't that new. Have you played any Interflip games? Like Dragon? Or the Segasa games... Like Cherry Bell, Super Straight, etc? I have. They play different than traditional topcoated wood playfields. Playfields polished to glass also play different. The polycarbonate PF protectors play different than topcoated playfields. Just like anyone at home notices their game plays different after a fresh wax for very similar reasons. Friction and ball english are real things. But unlike a fresh waxed game, these traits don't really settle down with time.

Quoted from MrMikeman:

I'm not a fanboy of the process but saying it sucks without even having tried it is pretty lame.
Wish they could make both types and then have some good players try side by side comparison.

Funny... I don't recall saying it sucks. I said the differences are real.

#957 6 months ago

Does Haggis clearcoat the polycarbonate sheet?

Gomez was mostly commenting on the coefficient of friction being different, which makes the ball behave differently, and I think he admitted if they clear coat the sheet then the ball would have the same friction as a normal playfield.

#958 6 months ago

Also if Damian is occasionally answering questions,

Can you describe the flipper mechs and if tap passing works? It's not as critical to tap pass on Fathom compared to some other classic Ballys, but it is a fundamental part of how those games feel. (Best feeling flippers IMHO)

I get why they're probably WPC Fliptronics like (which you can tap pass on, but it's really difficult to consistently do). Just curious if Damian et al have any thoughts on the matter.

#959 6 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Because I'm an engineer who spent many years learning the science behind it all combined with decades of practical experience in pinball, with access to some of the most diverse collections on this side of the planet...

Well... I guess that's objective... but you didn't have to brag about it! lol... totally kidding

#960 6 months ago

I haven’t been on in a while but has the mermaid sold out yet?

#961 6 months ago
Quoted from Happy81724:

I haven’t been on in a while but has the mermaid sold out yet?

No sir! "There are not many left" was the update given this morning direct from Haggis.

10
#962 6 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Also if Damian is occasionally answering questions,
Can you describe the flipper mechs and if tap passing works? It's not as critical to tap pass on Fathom compared to some other classic Ballys, but it is a fundamental part of how those games feel. (Best feeling flippers IMHO)
I get why they're probably WPC Fliptronics like (which you can tap pass on, but it's really difficult to consistently do). Just curious if Damian et al have any thoughts on the matter.

Over the years there have been FAST users who have tuned their flippers to feel like games of this era. The pinball purists in our camp will provide Damian and team with all the support they need to get the flippers to feel just as they should.

Aaron
FAST Pinball

#963 6 months ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

Over the years there have been FAST users who have tuned their flippers to feel like games of this era. The pinball purists in our camp will provide Damian and team with all the support they need to get the flippers to feel just as they should.
Aaron
FAST Pinball

Oh really? I'm going to PM you about that special sauce. I wired up my game with traditional high voltage switches because I love that direct control feel.

#964 6 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Does Haggis clearcoat the polycarbonate sheet?
Gomez was mostly commenting on the coefficient of friction being different, which makes the ball behave differently, and I think he admitted if they clear coat the sheet then the ball would have the same friction as a normal playfield.

Yes playfields are clear coated.

#965 6 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Yes playfields are clear coated.

you say this based on?

They've made a point about their coatings to avoid scratches... putting clear on top of that would nullify that.

#966 6 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

you say this based on?
They've made a point about their coatings to avoid scratches... putting clear on top of that would nullify that.

In one of his videos he talks about it. Unless I misunderstood.
I'll do a passive search for it but I'm not going spend a lot of time. Better yet, I'll send Damain an email to confirm.

#967 6 months ago

Found it.
https://www.facebook.com/303828336848631/videos/229784278223488

Youtube version if you don't use Facebook.

#968 6 months ago

Helpful, but that's for Celts when they offered 3 different versions of the playfield. Fathom is seemingly only getting one option and I don't think it's been clarified if it's more like option 2 or 3 from that video.

#969 6 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

In one of his videos he talks about it. Unless I misunderstood.
I'll do a passive search for it but I'm not going spend a lot of time. Better yet, I'll send Damain an email to confirm.

Yeah in that video it's an either or... so you get the hybrid w/scratch resistant coating, or get hybrid w/clear coated option. As Trey said, the Fathom launch wasn't specific on which offer would be used.

#970 6 months ago
Quoted from TreyBo69:

Helpful, but that's for Celts when they offered 3 different versions of the playfield. Fathom is seemingly only getting one option and I don't think it's been clarified if it's more like option 2 or 3 from that video.

Good point. The thing of it is, I don't care.

I fully expect these games to play differently and not just the playfield. The flipper mechs, slings and probably the drop targets will likely have a different feel and sound to them. The original Fathom is over 30 years old and this is to be expected.

But that doesnt mean its going to be a bad difference which is the sense I'm getting from some people. (not you) It's just going to be different and I believe that difference will be negligible.
And with coil strengths etc available in the settings, who knows, this new game has the potential to play even better.

This will be a modern Fathom, which is what I want, and I can't imagine anyone having a *horrible* experience from playing it.

#971 6 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

and I can't imagine anyone having a *horrible* experience from playing it. lol

Ha - you and I have been in this hobby long enough to know there will always be a handful of people that will poop on it more than a routed Popeye. Just pop into any of the MM/MB/AFM remake threads.

As you said - Haggis isn’t trying to make an exact copy of Fathom - they are improving on the original in many ways. I know it will play slightly differently and I’m completely fine with that.

20
#972 6 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

In one of his videos he talks about it. Unless I misunderstood.
I'll do a passive search for it but I'm not going spend a lot of time. Better yet, I'll send Damain an email to confirm.</blockquote

Good point. The thing of it is, I don't care.
I fully expect these games to play differently and not just the playfield. The flipper mechs, slings and probably the drop targets will likely have a different feel and sound to them. The original Fathom is over 30 years old and this is to be expected.
But that doesnt mean its going to be a bad difference which is the sense I'm getting from some people. (not you) It's just going to be different and I believe that difference will be negligible.
And with coil strengths etc available in the settings, who knows, this new game has the potential to play even better.
This will be a modern Fathom, which is what I want, and I can't imagine anyone having a *horrible* experience from playing it.

Quoted from Mr68:

Good point. The thing of it is, I don't care.
I fully expect these games to play differently and not just the playfield. The flipper mechs, slings and probably the drop targets will likely have a different feel and sound to them. The original Fathom is over 30 years old and this is to be expected.
But that doesnt mean its going to be a bad difference which is the sense I'm getting from some people. (not you) It's just going to be different and I believe that difference will be negligible.
And with coil strengths etc available in the settings, who knows, this new game has the potential to play even better.
This will be a modern Fathom, which is what I want, and I can't imagine anyone having a *horrible* experience from playing it.

Quoted from Mr68:

Good point. The thing of it is, I don't care.
I fully expect these games to play differently and not just the playfield. The flipper mechs, slings and probably the drop targets will likely have a different feel and sound to them. The original Fathom is over 30 years old and this is to be expected.
But that doesnt mean its going to be a bad difference which is the sense I'm getting from some people. (not you) It's just going to be different and I believe that difference will be negligible.
And with coil strengths etc available in the settings, who knows, this new game has the potential to play even better.
This will be a modern Fathom, which is what I want, and I can't imagine anyone having a *horrible* experience from playing it.

Quoted from Mr68:

Good point. The thing of it is, I don't care.
I fully expect these games to play differently and not just the playfield. The flipper mechs, slings and probably the drop targets will likely have a different feel and sound to them. The original Fathom is over 30 years old and this is to be expected.
But that doesnt mean its going to be a bad difference which is the sense I'm getting from some people. (not you) It's just going to be different and I believe that difference will be negligible.
And with coil strengths etc available in the settings, who knows, this new game has the potential to play even better.
This will be a modern Fathom, which is what I want, and I can't imagine anyone having a *horrible* experience from playing it.

I actually like the fact the fact that are only offering their patented process for the new Fathoms. If you didn’t, every asshole out there will be saying why buy a new Fathom when you can restore an old one and then it’s ultimately the same game.
They’re taking a chance by doing this but I believe in these guys! And I’m one of those assholes that already owns a restored Fathom with a new playfield and cleared cabinet! It’s beautiful.
But this whole package of new code, lcd displays in the apron and the unique playfield is very exciting and worth taking a chance.
I mean of course it won’t play exactly the same and I don’t want it to play exactly the same!
I’m hoping it plays crazy fast with the nostalgic feel.
Kind of like busying a resto mod/old muscle car with a crate engine, new trans, new rear end, new disc brakes. Sounds bad ass!

#973 6 months ago
Quoted from kklank:

I actually like the fact the fact that are only offering their patented process for the new Fathoms. If you didn’t, every asshole out there will be saying why buy a new Fathom when you can restore an old one and then it’s ultimately the same game.
They’re taking a chance by doing this but I believe in these guys! And I’m one of those assholes that already owns a restored Fathom with a new playfield and cleared cabinet! It’s beautiful.
But this whole package of new code, lcd displays in the apron and the unique playfield is very exciting and worth taking a chance.
I mean of course it won’t play exactly the same and I don’t want it to play exactly the same!
I’m hoping it plays crazy fast with the nostalgic feel.
Kind of like busying a resto mod/old muscle car with a crate engine, new trans, new rear end, new disc brakes. Sounds bad ass!

I wish I could up-vote you 4 times.

#974 6 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

I wish I could up-vote you 4 times.

I'll help.

Why do engineers always feel that they have to tell you what they do for a living?

No-one says "I know all about surfaces because I'm a boilermaker."

#975 6 months ago
Quoted from punkin:

I'll help.
Why do engineers always feel that they have to tell you what they do for a living?
No-one says "I know all about surfaces because I'm a boilermaker."

In some countries Engineer is a professional title much like Doctor is in America. So we could be more annoying lol

I only have a boring abbreviation at the end of my title.

#976 6 months ago

Thx for the updates HaggisPinball

#977 6 months ago

What’s that quote about pleasing some of the people some of the time

13
#978 6 months ago

I’ve been emailing Damian all morning. He was prompt and honest and transparent with his answers to my questions. Covered my concerns with warranty should I need it and confirmed it is a mirror backglass, long story short.......I’M IN!!
Haggis Mermaid Edition. This was a hard decision for me having been caught up in the WoZ/Hobbit debacle here a few years back. I vowed never to pre order again. Damian answered all questions and has alleviated any fears I had to commit to what looks like an amazing game.

12
#979 6 months ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Good point. The thing of it is, I don't care.
I fully expect these games to play differently and not just the playfield. The flipper mechs, slings and probably the drop targets will likely have a different feel and sound to them. The original Fathom is over 30 years old and this is to be expected.
But that doesnt mean its going to be a bad difference which is the sense I'm getting from some people. (not you) It's just going to be different and I believe that difference will be negligible.
And with coil strengths etc available in the settings, who knows, this new game has the potential to play even better.
This will be a modern Fathom, which is what I want, and I can't imagine anyone having a *horrible* experience from playing it.

Having owned AFMRLE, MMRLE and MBRLE and owned fully restored originals, give me a remake any day.
I prefer them and I’m like you and hoping for this to be better/different. It’s a good thing but just my personal opinion. I know there are always going to be the purists. The beauty of these new remakes is that there is room for both in the hobby. I think CGC proved that. Good luck to Damian and Haggis with this and future endeavours.

#980 6 months ago
Quoted from jokerpoker:

Having owned AFMRLE, MMRLE and MBRLE and owned fully restored originals, give me a remake any day.
I prefer them and I’m like you and hoping for this to be better/different. It’s a good thing but just my personal opinion. I know there are always going to be the purists. The beauty of these new remakes is that there is room for both in the hobby. I think CGC proved that. Good luck to Damian and Haggis with this and future endeavours.

My thought as well having also owned those three originals and two remakes being MMR and AFMRLE. I had a NIB AFM back in the day too and very mint MB. My MM had a perfect pf buy few small niggles on the cabinet. I had zero hesitation sending it to be sold and replacing it with MMR.

#981 6 months ago

The problem with top layers not being fully adhered to the playfield wood is the potential for squishy void space between the polymer and the playfield wood.

Holding it down with posts and stuff will not give the same solid result as adhering the full surface of the laminate top layer to the actual playfield. It only takes tiny amounts of distortion of top layer to create a gap that will affect the ball behaviour.

I would be less wary if this hybrid playfield was laminated and bonded so as to be one piece. The way it seems like it will be is that it is not bonded, just "clamped down" in a few places but not in the middle where the ball rolls and reacts.

Maybe I have the construction details wrong?, but the way it sounds to me is that there is no bonding of the layers which to me is pretty important for multiple reasons. Things and bits and fine contaminant will certainly eventually find their way in between. Somewhat like with protectors except partiles end up beneath the art, but still hold a cushion like gap.

#983 6 months ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

The problem with top layers not being fully adhered to the playfield wood is the potential for squishy void space between the polymer and the playfield wood.
Holding it down with posts and stuff will not give the same solid result as adhering the full surface of the laminate top layer to the actual playfield. It only takes tiny amounts of distortion of top layer to create a gap that will affect the ball behaviour.

Even with fully floating playfield protectors this really doesn't cause a problem. And this top layer they are using is much more thick and rigid than a playfield protector - it will have it's own shape and its mass will force it down. These factors alone would keep a consistent surface, even if it were floating. The concern would be more if it created ripples or waves for some reason because the material weren't flat.. but that too shouldn't be an issue unless the material gets deformed with heat or something.

I'd rate this a nuthing-burger.

#984 6 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

I'd rate this a nuthing-burger.

speaking of burgers, have you seen the video of the Sound Engineer? I won't spoil it, if you haven't.

#985 6 months ago
Quoted from oldskool1969:

What’s that quote about pleasing some of the people some of the time

Some of the people all of the time

or

All of the people some of the time

never ; All of the people all of the time.

Some of the people some of the time is just a gimme , that could just be pleasing 2 or 3 of the people every now and then lol

#986 6 months ago

The ME is going to be very special methinks. All this work gone into an exclusive rule set for 250 games. And a connection to the oldest burger in the world.

What more could you want.

#987 6 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

The ME is going to be very special methinks. All this work gone into an exclusive rule set for 250 games. And a connection to the oldest burger in the world.
What more could you want.

Bacon
and what goes with bacon? more bacon

#988 6 months ago
Quoted from bigehrl:

speaking of burgers, have you seen the video of the Sound Engineer? I won't spoil it, if you haven't.

Forget the Tim Tams, I hope my ME comes with a quarter pounder from Macca's! (Macca's Edition)

#989 6 months ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Even with fully floating playfield protectors this really doesn't cause a problem. .... unless the material gets deformed with heat or something. ...

The first part does not reflect reality. It is one of the demonstrable downsides to PF protectors, the crap that works its way in between from edges no matter how well fitted.

Glad you brought up distortion too, because that is exactly what posts will cause if clamped down onto loose plastic, even if it is 1/8" thick or whatever. The only way is for posts to not have much tension, but then they can move.

The quoted analysis is what is more of a "nuthing" burger. lol

Anyway the proof will be in the puding and time will only tell for sure. I do hope I'm wrong, but from an Engineering standpoint at least a degree of concern is waranted, small details that are imprtant do sometimes get overlooked. It only takes a thou of an inch to not be solid.

I say "hope" because I am in on a ME. I also use playfield protectors, despite their proven downsides, so I can tell you for a fact they do have a few shortcomings too.

But what would I know with about 3 decades experience in mechanical engineering.

"Pinball is hard"

#990 6 months ago

Look at the Bally Elektra re issues, pretty much none.

#991 6 months ago
Quoted from razorsedge:

Anyway the proof will be in the puding and time will only tell for sure.

I agree. But the correct expression is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating".

I hope your impressive 3 decades experience in mechanical engineering forgives my 3 decades obsession with idioms.

#992 6 months ago

In wonder if we’ll get a breakdown,broadly, of where the machines are going to and in what numbers. Unlikely but would interesting.

#993 6 months ago

Clearly this must be the Aussie collective of Pinside as I have never seen such a number post like this before?

#994 6 months ago

Level of pride perhaps.

#995 6 months ago
Quoted from gold1:

Clearly this must be the Aussie collective of Pinside as I have never seen such a number post like this before?

I’m just jumping in here because I’m an Aussie too

Congrats to all buyers. Personally, I’m torn - and short of cash after LZ and GNR

#996 6 months ago

Oi! Oi! Oi!
❤️

#997 6 months ago
Quoted from Chambo:

I’m just jumping in here because I’m an Aussie too
Congrats to all buyers. Personally, I’m torn - and short of cash after LZ and GNR

You only need enough cash for the deposit at this point! Don’t forget the order cutoff is on Monday.

#998 6 months ago
Quoted from oldskool1969:

Look at the Bally Elektra re issues, pretty much none.

Indeed. Although Elektra is rather different in some aspects.

Just saying, at the edges where drops and stuff is placed, no pinball grime is going to have any gap at all to work its way between over time?.

How much tension do I apply to a post so that it is tight but does not create any distortion?

I'm not very convinced, but I am happy to be wrong in my suspicion about this. More the longer term impacts I am curious about, and customer x-factor/impact/destruction can't be known for sure either, until a longer term has expired, and people have tried to adjust outlanes or change a rubber.

If it were bonded like a hardtop I wouldn't have anything to wonder about.

Yep I'm in on one anyway of course. I was never trying to suggest it was a deal breaker. Just saying I can't see it as ideal.

If there was the option for a traditional all wooden playfield, that would have been my choice. But there isn't.

I will certainly be very interested to see and play!.

#999 6 months ago

Why don't they all stop Digital printing and go back to Screen Print, with Specialty Coating Williams used and decent clearcoat, works for Chicago Gaming.

#1000 6 months ago

And while I'm having a good old motherland whinge Lol ....

The other thing I would have probably thought about another way ... the coin door.

Is 4 pieces of angle ... and a hinge strip ... .... oh never mind. ha ha

I still bought it (deposit) even though I think the coin door looks horrible and clunky and out of place. There I said it.

I feel better now.

There are 1,767 posts in this topic. You are on page 20 of 36.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside