There are 83 individuals and 3 distros affected. How many Centaurs do we think they “sold”?

I’m thinking some between 150 and 200 Fathoms were made.

I'm dubious that many were produced, the FAST guys would have a better idea based on how many boardsets were shipped.

So for the guys tracking games, at best 3 Centaur prototypes were made. At best.

I suspect only one or two made it out, and one was for the "unboxing" video promotion to spin up public interest.

How does Haggis owe DAMIEN almost as much money as all of the paid customers? And when you factor in Hartsco, MORE money than all of the paid customers?

Good intentions are always genuine!

The way things were structured I'm rather dubious.

[Deleted comment]

Isn’t this Fraud? I would guess in the states this Damien would have felony fraud charges against him?

I'm kind of amazed that 86 people sent them money for machines they had no idea if they'd ever get. Why is everyone in this hobby in such a rush to be the first? Would it have been that hard to wait and see them get stuff off the line in quantity before putting your money up?

And I'm by no means blaming them as they are the victims, I just don't get the rush to jump into something that is so inherently risky.

The customers were told that their games were on the line being made RIGHT NOW so their payments were due. This was obviously not true in most cases. Hence the claims of fraud.

One small note - haggispinball.com is registered to Damian personally, not Hartsco (edit: though I guess it is listed as the org, but I wouldn't read too much into that). His residential address is in those public records which is why I'm not sharing a screenshot here (side note - always opt for privacy protection when registering your domains!)

Can’t wait for pinsiders to visit Damion and take photos of his back.

.

Since ive been in the hobby about 10 years, there have been like 5 or 6 of these "good intentions, turn to fraud" pinball startups, yet people still fall for the scam, sometimes the same people multiple times. These people need to look in the mirror unfortunately. I mean, its not hard to not send someone $$$ for a product that doesnt exist.

Those figures are shocking... potential Netflix documentary here.

Knowing things weren't good and knowing the actual numbers situation are two different things. I worked for a very small software company (4 employees) but the owner never gave us the numbers, if he did I would have ran. As I said before, Damian could have been telling Marty that new investors were coming in also. You can have that opinion but it's not based on fact. We just don't know.

Numbers can't be that high, 250 sounds like a lot.

It is shocking I agree. Good marketing I guess. Centaur was a beautiful game.

Having a license from PPS and running known titles lent it an air of legitimacy would be my guess.

Those whom have run a business and know a bit about pinball history would have known that there were very long odds of Haggis succeeding.

The burn rate on frivolous stuff was a red flag.

Why?

.

Just take him out for a beer.

Gotta build confidence. If they can deliver small trinkets then surely they can produce a complex widget with thousands of discreet pieces requiring a laborious assembly process.

"With good intentions"!!

Not that shocking tbh. If they didn't make netflix documentaries about the other similar pinball startup meltdowns then this small fry situation ain't getting one either. We've seen this story play out multiple times by now.

The taking a picture of somebodies back thing is just a long running pinside bit. Back when the Predator fiasco went down there were lots of tough guys saying all the things they'd like to do to Kevin. At one point he was spotted at an arcade auction and instead of doing anything, the person who spotted him simply took a picture of Kevin walking from behind. Many laughs were had at this silly scenario and the "taking a picture of his back" pinside meme was born.

Same with Mirco.

.

Here is an infamous one... https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jpop-update-thread%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6mg-raza-and-aiw%e2%80%a6/page/486#post-4643850

I wonder if the million dollars he owes himself will make the trading while insolvent look worse, that stuff will land you in a nice jail if it's serious enough

Did somebody actually take a picture of Mirco's back? I thought a lot of people were just cracking that joke because so many tough guys thought they were going to confront him at a show. Its funny either way. I do agree though, its never a good idea to threaten people or "visit" them and I don't condone such actions.

That motorcycle jacket was quite a lure.

Remember those Aussies blowing smoke up everyone's asses and trying to convince them they were crazy for being concerned, to the point of almost attacking people's character for feeling that way? YEP. Saw it too.

Screenshot 2024-08-02 at 1.05.36?PM (resized).png

I don't see an Etsy leathermaker on the secured debtors list, so there's still a chance those were bought and paid for...right?!?! It definitely exists and has been designed...maybe

Wow, more than double my swag on individuals left hanging... I was thinking there was maybe 1-2 dozen full paid fathoms outstanding. To think there were over 30, plus distributor obligations makes last summer's comments about 'end of year' completely unforgivable. There seems to be nothing in the pipeline that we are aware of that could substantiate the validity of any of the centaur project claims as being viable. Unless there was some secret life insurance policy scam they were waiting on landing

See Damian must have thought when he was licensing from PPS that it stood for Pinball Ponzi Scheme.

If there is clear documentation that the paid in full were told shipping in a few weeks while the books clearly said otherwise then there could be some serious legal trouble here.

Sucks to be on the bottom of the pyramid, never knowing that unless another 100 paid in full orders could be found they were never getting their machines.

Essentially a lot of what Damian said in the Cary Hardy interview was a lie to secure cashflow for rent and payroll.

....to make matters worse, he starts issuing cease and desist letters over the past week, threatening people

Wasn’t it that people were getting cold calls and not emails, or anything in writing, asking for payment in full?

....it's an opinion, but building multiple houses at once is, dare I say, more complicated than building pinball machines...... yet the other company that he runs EME Property Developments Pty Ltd continues to trade ....

Edit: I guess what I'm trying to say is that Damian has demonstrated that he isn't trustworthy to manage a company that takes other people's money in exchange for goods and services

Did you have any cash on the line? Or are you voicing opinion from a no skin in the game safe zone?

Correct.

Why did he stay to the end then? Out of the entire original crew, wasn't he the only man left standing? No one could be that oblivious to the fact that the company was a sinking ship, right?

I guess that is the biggest question mark to me. Why did they try to finish those last couple fathoms? They were dead in the water, what did those last few mean to anyone? It was a huge time waster for everyone, who were those games going to that was so important that they brought everyone back, including Marty, just to attempt to get them finished?

It's like the more we learn, the more questions we have.

I'm a civil engineer and know the sorta people capable of a subdivision of a dozen houses...

Anyways. There are lots of places to get material, workers, designs, capital, etc for building houses. Pinball is hard

It’s also not a good idea to be a thief and think there’s no repercussions. Some people lost a little money, some people lost a lot more. Money can be made again, it’s not the end of anyone. But nobody likes a thief, that goes way back, carved in stone for a reason.

Don't forget the cheerleader who kept saying there was only like 11 fathoms left to build. Can't remember if that was gilligan or foolsgold

Alright this one I’m picking up on lol

Yes after he was pelted with complaints at a show if I remember correct.

Re-reading the thread trying to find the posts where some cheerleaders were saying it was only a handful of fathoms that were left to be built. Found so many mind blowing examples of crazy talk, but I thought these were particularly funny in hindsight.

every single one of which he deflected or plead the 5th on, like John Gotti. So that was productive.