crap like that can be reversed

For those that have been through this before, while I realize that no one may get money back, what are the next steps in this process? Will those who either paid in full for a machine or deposit be automatically contacted? Or do we need to register as a creditor?

Please feel free to PM.

Selling the business as a going concern without a lease in place is unlikely thought and there goodwill is worth $0 at this point

wfumed2 You can contact the liquidators, however it will be likely that any prepurchases will be registered as an unsecured creditor automatically.

Stuieb84 agree highly unlikely, however Im guessing there would be some value in the presales

No guarantee you’ll be contacted so best to contact the liquidator directly.

Good guys do not ghost out on customers who paid them thousands of dollars in good faith expecting a product in return. Not returning customer emails and closing up shop in the middle of the night without a peep from them is not what good people do. Good people do not ghost their distribution partners, who are also on the hook for tens of thousands in losses through deposit monies. Good guys would take the painful step of formally announcing their closure to their customers who are going to lose everything they paid. Announcing Centaur and accepting preorder money knowing you are over a year behind delivering paid for games is not on the up and up. Marty and Damien took the easy way out, and figuratively gave the community the middle finger as they drove the truck away.

I think people who went direct with Haggis will be SOL as they'll be the bottom of the creditors list. But people who went through a distro (Flip N Out, Nitro, RS-Pinball, maybe some others) should be able to get money out of those distros (or at the very least, store credit). Those distros should be filing their claims and maybe they get pennies to the dollar from liquidation.

Is it that easy to prove? All the liquidated business I’ve been involved in were trading while insolvent at some point and not one was proven. But I’m not an expert. Who has to prove the trading whilst insolvent?

Best bet is to contact the liquidators, go to post #8780 for details.

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Marty is likely an unsecured creditor, owed unpaid superannuation too

Punkin, aren't you paid on a Centaur and last Fathom?

This won't make people happy, but I will say this:

Regarding the "pinball manufacturer in a box" idea... anyone who paid attention to the firestorms that occurred with companies who bought up the Deeproot assets (or took JPOP on as an employee or consultant) won't want any part of this one. Yes, the Bally license might have some value, but it would just be better to go negotiate with PPS for one than to buy the now loose one. At best, a potential pinball manufacturer will buy the *equipment* involved, they shouldn't even want the incomplete machines that were sitting in the warehouse. There was significant not-value in buying Deeproot assets in terms of being asked to "get us the games we were promised," in spite of that buying the assets didn't obligate such a position.

I agree with ForceFlow on the "don't preorder from a new manufacturer that doesn't have a history of at least three complete delivered machine runs", and I will add, "don't preorder from *any* manufacturer." Don't be willing to put up money you could lose on a pinball machine if you can't afford to lose that money on a machine to be eventually delivered, buy a pinball machine from a distributor that has it physically in their warehouse and can deliver it tomorrow to your door, or from a private seller that you're taking it immediately out of their game room.

So no final communication from Damian and Marty apologizing for ripping off hobbyists?

Does Marty still do a podcast? If so, he should have Damian on and take live calls, not that it would matter at this point.

Well by not getting my game, at least I saved on the shipping cost.

At this point, its not like we didn't all (but one or two of us) know that this day was 100% for sure coming. I wrote my money off months ago, but it would be nice to get at least a small amount back through legal proceedings. If any people are banding together to try to do this or have information, please feel free to IM me.

For those that think we are a bunch of idiots, a few simple facts. Unlike other folded companies Haggis actually shipped a bunch of games. They were also partnered with Planetary Pinball in this venture - which turns out to be basically meaningless but meant something to me at the time. I came in very late in this game after verifying things were rolling along toward shipping and the production games were verified as stunning. I put down a deposit knowing that it was small enough that I could afford to walk away with no change in lifestyle. Being at the end of the line, I waiting a very long time as the Mermaids were slowly shipped and dozens and dozens of them were received by the customers. It sure seemed like Haggis had come out on the other side and had made it. When I got the email to pay in full (classics are cheaper keep in mind), there was still an uncertainty but I had real evidence of a lot of games shipped, so once again I pulled the trigger and paid them. Again I waited and waited patiently and the February letter came by email saying basically they needed investors. At that point the writing was on the wall.

It was when that February letter came that I knew 100% for sure that Haggis was LYING when they asked for my money to begin production of MY GAME. They knew they were doomed and they were simply robbing my money to pay for parts to build someone else's game, rent, electricity and royalties to Planetary Pinball. Damien may be a good person (whatever that means), but there is no denying that he continued to sell after being insolvent. For that he does deserve to be punished and personally liable.

And once again there are crickets from Planetary Pinball...

Yes, you just used the broad term for assets--I was asking for specifics.

Finished/unfinished games, parts, hardware, tools, equipment, vehicles, real estate, contracts, source code, copyrights, trademarks, patents, etc.

My question was what was being liquidated and what wasn't. And the implied question, were any assets secreted away before the paperwork for liquidation was signed?

And were there any corporate shenanigans to protect/hide assets, such as (on paper) renting stuff to the company, so it wouldn't actually be considered as owned by the company.

Define "good guys".

If someone provides me personally money and I don't given them anything in return that's criminal. If someone provides my company money and the company doesn't ship them anything thats a "business failure". Whitewashing any way one wants to look at it.

Marty is an employee. Will be interesting to see what Marty says on the next podcast for sure, I would never blame him.

I agree. At least tell people in a statement that the company is bankrupt and I'm sorry I couldn't make it work. That's the right thing to do no matter how bad it is.

any prototype games in the USA or Australia should still be saleable assets listed and owned by the Liquidator?

Yep, and remember when Haggis first came out one of Damien's promises was to not take money until games were ready to ship. I was cautiously optimistic at first when that was the deal. That didn't last long though and was one of the very first broken promises in a long line of broken promises. That set off all kinds of alarm bells for me and many others. We'd seen this before, but just like in previous instances there was a peanut gallery of well wishers and poisonous positivity screwballs fighting with anyone who dared question anything. Disgusting behavior imo, but just like many times before, after the dust settled and there was nothing left to cheerlead they were left still feeling like they did nothing wrong and have no embarrassment or shame about their behavior at all. Sickening. Especially considering some of these shills actually got their games.

Haggis wasn't the first company to take this approach, it wasn't innovative, other manufacturers have already explored this numerous times over the decades and these playfields were a huge reason Haggis had so many issues building these things.

Yeah its being said that Damien owes vendors a chunk of change too. Hasn't paid his last several invoices.

Well said. I got sick and tired of the Damien is a good guy talk a long time ago. He may not be an evil POS like Robert Mueller (but he could be), but hes not a good guy. Hes a scumbag. Thats just how it works. I don't care what the circumstances were. Not sure how to feel about Marty tbh, but he definitely is somewhat complicit in this as well.

I'm blaming Cary Hardy for this whole mess!

I'm sorry to hear about your loss John, I will refer you to Heighway pinball though. Another company full of red flags that was clearly limping along trickling out games while bleeding out and at the same time assuring customers over and over again that all was fine and everyone would be taken care of. You should have seen that writing on the wall way before the letter of doom. Same with the PPS license thing, it clearly is meaningless. PPS simply grants them the permission to make the stuff. Literally anyone can negotiate with Rick and get a license to make stuff. PPS approval doesn't guarantee a company can't go out of business. The pinball community is littered with former liscensee's that went out of business. Hindsight is 20/20 but coming in as late as you did, it sounds to me more like you had FOMO and convinced yourself that obvious truths were nothing to worry about. No, I don't think you're an idiot, I think you were just wrapped up in the hype. I hope you and others are able to recoup something.

So in the wrong here...

It was significant that it was the first time the title was in North America with basically unfettered access to it. It was newsworthy and significant for someone to document what the game really was in person. He was doing what you'd hope anyone would do who had access to a brand new title... showed us what it was in the flesh. If it wasn't Cary, I would have hoped anyone with the same access would have done the same for us.

So everyone who took photos and played the game at TPF are complicit too? Everyone should have shunned it and refused to engage because Haggis was still slow to ship fathoms at this time?

He was documenting and excited about a new game in front of him - nothing more. Just like everyone else at TPF who stood in line to check it out and give it some plays.

These guys looking to blame anyone, but the sole person to be blamed.

Did they watch the vid and enjoy it? If so, they are complicit too I guess.

Well have you emailed them?

I mean it's only Haggis that really knows what's going on...

(who doesn't remember that amazing show??)

Um, I enjoyed the unboxing video, knowing full well I would never send Haggis a dime given their track record at the time, (and this was the day the video came out.) Blaming Carey seems to be like an excuse, not the reason anyone lost money.

haha.. 'doesn't look good' -- after multiple citations showing the company in LIQUIDATION

You obviously have zero comprehension of things - you really should stay away from things you know nothing about. You've cemented a legacy of no credibility and disgust in these threads because you would lash out and post against rational thoughts while history has shown over and over you post from a position of absolutely zero.

Your keyboard deserves to be in external administration too.

I had a Mermaid deposit/spot that I ended up selling. Wasn’t feeling good about the company. The guy that bought my spot got his game. I was an early spot. I got the “good intentions” vibe at the time.

I feel bad for the folks that got screwed over. Never fun losing a pile of cash. I hate this hindsight armchair qb thing though. It’s easy to analyse after something like this happens and claim there were warning signs. It wasn’t all that obvious, especially early on.

I guess all Labyrinth buyers are complete idiots too. New company that asked for deposits.

Maybe like how Turner raised from the deeproot ashes (which raised from the zidware ashes), maybe we will get Hákarl or Balut Pinball

It's not even in his authority to make you whole. The only way that would happen is if he paid you out of his own pocket as a private individual. Haggis can not - he's got plenty of secured creditors in front of you and they aren't going to take less just so some customer can get paid in full while they don't.

Sorry man, contact the liquidators, get on the lists, and pray for something rather than nothing. You can pursue a lawyer in Oz... but the math may not be all that favorable... but best way to know is to consult with the subject matter experts in the region.

I have zero idea about anything Labryrinth.

But if they put their next game for sale and ask for money while tons of people are still waiting for their Labyrinths amidst dodgy communication and blown deadlines...yes anybody who sends them money is a complete idiot.

It really is time for this nonsense to stop. But I'm convinced it never will. Not as long as the tantalizing specter of "something else!!!" continues to be dangled just out of reach of your average pinball dreamer.

Fantasy will always be more exciting and tantalizing than reality, and this sad truth continues - even after all this time, all these scams, all of these tears - to fuel the high-octane dreams of these failed pinball companies and their buyers.

I'll just continue to buy Stern games. I know it's not too sexy, I know it doesn't come with a leather jacket and there are no promises of a pinbar or a pinpod, or being able to hammer the playfield with abandon, but it's kind of like a marriage. Yeah the fireworks may have dulled and that sense of excitement may have faded...but I know what I'm going to get. Yeah, a coke-fueled orgy might sound exciting, but I guess I'll just settle for an old-fashioned, quaint roll in the hay.

Buying a pinball machine and actually receiving it within a few weeks might not be the most thrilling journey, but it's good enough for most people. I can do without the excitement of a "roll of the dice!" and a promise of "games will ship early next year!" when buying a pinball machine.

Gilligan will now be jumping over to the American Pinball thread and he’s going to start stating how they choose wonderful themes.

Not idiots, but given the crap shoot of success rate this industry has seen in the last 10 years, certainly was a risk. BOF just happened to succeed.

I 100% agree. Often though, companies in this situation have terrible book keeping records and it's difficult to untangle

OK - so who is as excited as I am to watch the Dutch Pinball Alice in Wonderland thing play out?

Who's rollin' the dice on a $15K Jpop resurrection?

I played 4 games of Lebowski on the weekend again, as cool as it is in terms of toys I would never pay $15K for one. I think I would get tired of it for very quickly. For a show piece is great. Alice might be exactly the same. JPop, whatever.

Only thing that could work for Dutch is BTTF is that's a real thing.

So basically you are saying Lebowski and Alice are not your preferred licenses, or non license in Alice's case, however BTTF is.

Not the same situation.

Barrels of Fun had an initial fleet of games already built and ready to play/buy at shows. They continued churning them out after that, and giving frequent updates on their progress and what game numbers were completed. For some of the small delays they had, they announced what they were and why (power outages, tornadoes, etc). Plus, the company leaders have been in pinball manufacturing and other manufacturing industries before, and it certainly shows.

Pinball company failures tend to follow a similar pattern. They ask for money well in advance of anything being built, blow past estimated production dates again and again, string people along, then go silent when questions come up that were uncomfortable for them. Barrels of Fun is operating in a completely different manner from these failed companies.

BoF is not fully established yet, but they're not exhibiting the early red flags that would indicate a company collapse.

I would never pay $15K for any pinball machine. After Libowski is done, BTTF is the only thing that will save Dutch. Alice will be a disaster sales wise.

I feel sad as I think they really tried and as said before this was a good try to mix old classic and new. I like my fathom alot as I am lucky enough to have received it.

I'm not saying Cary is to blame. Haggis is 100%. However, Cary loves to shit on companies, but never did with this one. Only hyped it. So that contrast is what looks a little jarring. That's all I'm saying. If others are blaming Cary, so be it. Just his choice of who to insult and who to not was weird when this company clearly deserved the Stern level vitriol he likes to dish out. I hope this properly explains, at least, my stance on the matter.

Wow apparently I ruffled some feathers by the Hardy comment - that is true, he is not the reason for Haggis's downfall. I already apologized for inferring it was his game. And I did not know that he turned around and asked hard questions to the Haggis folk, (I'm not a huge follower of his) so I'll give him a pass.

Truth of the matter is this entire mess rests solely at Damien and his TAKING FULL PAYMENTS SAYING THAT THE GAME WAS ON THE LINE when it was clearly not. And then taking deposits/full payments on Centaurs on top of that. I just feel terrible for everyone that got into this. I myself sold my deposit due to my daughter being born around the time I'd need to provide full payment, and in hindsight I dodged a major bullet. I just feel angry on behalf of the guy I sold my deposit to. (who in turn paid in full, and I don't know if he ever got the game) ... just a terrible situation for everyone. Hopefully there's some sort of civil suit that comes out of this.

File your creditor claim. I wouldn't count on a dime but you don't have to really do anything but wait.

And then just move on. Life's too short.

You go down the attorney road, you lose again. Just like Kulek, Jpop, DR and every other scam.

This is a business bankruptcy. I'm sure he has no personal assets either.

These guys don't get "nailed" because of the "buyer beware" aspect of the contract. Little Bobby situation is MUCH different.

Sorry for your losses. No point in trying to blame anyone else like Zach or Hardy, that's ridiculous.

No whining allowed from future losses Levi! If you can't afford to lose the $$$, don't pre order, that simple.

Like Stern, JJP, Spooky, AP, why wouldn't you just wait until the games are actually made and then buy Alice if you like it for $5k after 50 plays?

I just can't believe we are gonna see this play out again, so soon after another spectacular collapse.

"Look, I know it's a gamble, but...."

I'm sure he's still not concerned... and is happy with his choices

This really bugs me, for whatever reason. Planetary seems to display questionable judgement regarding manufacturing partner selection.

What's the exposure? They got paid, end of story. "Boo Planetary, they shouldn't have sold/leased/whatever'd the license to an unestablished team"
They still got paid.