James Bond 007 (60th LE)
Stern, 2023Quoted from bobukcat:Has anyone figured out what the shot that GG has never seen on a game before is? Wasn't that this game he was referring to?
I have to remember thousands of pin acronyms and now I have to figure out people code? GG?
Quoted from Beechwood:I have to remember thousands of pin acronyms and now I have to figure out people code? GG?
George gomez
Quoted from Straight2VHS:After reading through piles of posts with the general consensus “Stern could have done better” “What was Keith thinking taking this on with so many restrictions?” “We get very little for the huge price tag” and “they won’t sell all 500”. My take is this, I was in a position to buy this machine as a business expense for my business with the opportunity to make some revenue off of plays. I bought this game for my facility so people can come from all over to play it, discuss what they like or dislike about it, and be able to say they played it on location somewhere. I’d much rather have it available for the public to enjoy and appreciate than sitting in my living room getting played a few times a week feeling sorry for myself for paying so much for what many are saying is so little.
I don’t care if it makes any money, and in the end, if I lose money when I go to sell it. I just want to contribute to the pinball community to help this hobby and bring people together. My facility is located in Southern California and I’m guessing this pinball will be difficult to find out in the wild.
Keith worked for a local amusement company literally 2 miles from my facility and came to my facility to service my pinball machines before going to Stern. This pinball will sit alongside a Godzilla Premium and I’ll be proud to showcase two Elwin games side-by-side. Just like all of my other pins, it will be cared for and kept in good working condition at all times for everyone to enjoy and get the best possible experience out of it.
Thank you!! Because I live like five minutes away from you. 
I believe the unique shot is the left lane, back left corner area. Which apparently George Gomez hasn't seen before (or maybe forgot), though a similar shot has been done before on some Gottliebs.
I wouldn't hold Gomez's feet to the fire for not being as big of a pinball nerd as some of us who can mentally picture every game from the big four since the solid state era. And as far as I'm concerned, no one has found that exact same shot yet. Just some similar things (which you can say about almost any shot)
Quoted from bobukcat:Has anyone figured out what the shot that GG has never seen on a game before is? Wasn't that this game he was referring to?
If memory serves George said it was the figure 8 shot in the upper left of the playfield, which does look like a pretty sweet shot.
Screen Shot 2023-01-05 at 9.24.07 AM (resized).pngQuoted from reffob:If memory serves George said it was the figure 8 shot in the upper left of the playfield, which does look like a pretty sweet shot.[quoted image]
Can hit it in two directions and rip two different opto spinners on same shot.
Quoted from Psw757:Can hit it in two directions and rip two different opto spinners on same shot.
Yeah that's pretty awesome
Quoted from TreyBo69:Please enlighten me
All I see is a barometer for how healthy the market is. Stern is able to sell 500 20k pinball machines as a special project, on top of doing their typical cornerstone releases with price bumps
Again, the argument of “just don’t buy it” to an individual does not hold water. These sales are not happening in isolation. And you can bet there are lessons about price tolerance that will be applied back to cornerstones.
The notion of ‘dont buy it and you can just ignore it’ is naive.
The depressing part is all the people sho think just a 30% discount starts to make this attractive. That is people subconsciously thinking ‘if i get in at the right price… i can still do ok’ because they know they will sell eventually.
Wait for the next pin where they swap the drops for standups, remove the lcd, and replace the reels.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Please enlighten me
All I see is a barometer for how healthy the market is. Stern is able to sell 500 20k pinball machines as a special project, on top of doing their typical cornerstone releases with price bumps
Yeah pinball is outpacing inflation. The demand growth for pinball far exceeds production growth, so prices go up faster than inflation. Stern is going to keep raising prices and do high ticket small runs to keep growing as a company to make their vampiric private equity overlords happy.
You eventually accept that reality. Then it becomes amusing to watch grown men, who can afford a $100k+ collection of pins, hem and haw over how expensive some of the toys have gotten.
Demand outpacing production growth? Times, they are a changing. You are living in the past, man. You are thinking of 2020-22, man.
Quoted from Psw757:If you knew it had at least a song or two from each era of bond and appropriate video based on era of bonds in game that are specific to included modes could you get to 20k.
It's hard to imagine what would make this particular game worth $20k to me (and that's all subjective, of course). This was purposely made as a "retro" old school game with more basic features. I get that, and it's fine for what it is, but this more basic game with a super premium price is kind of insulting.
Here is what a 60th anniversary game would have to have in order to make it worth $15k+:
-Theme songs from all 25 Bond movies
-Audio and video clips from all 25 Bond movies (on a regular LCD display, not the small one)
-An upper and/or lower playfield
-Some interactive mechs (spinning hat doesn't count). The Bond on a Wand at least tries to do something interactive and interesting (hopefully more added in the code later).
-Nice cabinet artwork throughout
Is this a realistic list of features? No, due to the licensing costs, licensing approval process and development time/effort.
I guess we were all imagining something amazing when you combine all 25 James Bond movies and Keith Elwin on a super premium game budget. Most of us are very disappointed by the value and features that this game delivers. Godzilla Premium, for example, is a great game (almost certainly better than this game based on the little I've seen) for less than half the price.
Quoted from flynnibus:Again, the argument of “just don’t buy it” to an individual does not hold water. These sales are not happening in isolation. And you can bet there are lessons about price tolerance that will be applied back to cornerstones.
The notion of ‘dont buy it and you can just ignore it’ is naive.
The depressing part is all the people sho think just a 30% discount starts to make this attractive. That is people subconsciously thinking ‘if i get in at the right price… i can still do ok’ because they know they will sell eventually.
Wait for the next pin where they swap the drops for standups, remove the lcd, and replace the reels.
Sorry, but this is all sour grapes about how the pricing for pins is going up because the demand is growing at exponential levels.
No duh this will inform future decisions by Stern. As long as they have way more orders than they can fulfill the prices will continue to go up. You accept that reality and pony up, or move on to another company and deal with their own quirks.
Quoted from Utesichiban:Demand outpacing production growth? Times, they are a changing. You are living in the past, man. You are thinking of 2020-22, man.
You guys can say the market is chilling off from fever red hot, but the demand is still incredibly high. People are still waiting months to get brand new Godzillas, even when decent deals exist on the secondary market
Gomez Bond LEs not instantly selling out says more about that particular game than the market overall.
Quoted from flynnibus:remove the lcd, and replace the reels.
Not the LCD and the reels!
Quoted from ryank11379:It seems like the previous generation “operator” group that pinball was started on is clashing with the home use only collectors Stern was seeming to point this game toward.
Are they collectors if they know at time of purcthey intend on selling within a short period of use? And counting on strong residual value to justify ignoring the price?
Ghat doesn’t sound line a collector to me. If sounds lind an enthusiast who believes he can justify prices by selling to buy yhe next thing.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Sorry, but this is all sour grapes about how the pricing for pins is going up because the demand is growing at exponential levels.
No - its a response to a dismissive deflection by you to other people.
Sales are not an island
Quoted from flynnibus:No - its a response to a dismissive deflection by you to other people.
Sales are not an island
You normally love to write longwinded responses in your arguments, and you haven't made a very compelling one yet. It makes me think you don't have a legitimate argument because deep down you know this is basic capitalism, so now it's an emotional response to not liking how the hobby is trending.
If you don't like expensive games, don't buy them. They'll stop making them if people actually stop buying them. And if people don't stop buying them, why be mad about it? The company is trying to cater to the market. And more importantly, if you don't like this game...Stern will have something new to sell you in a couple months and with different price points.
Deep down some people do like it when Stern raises the prices because it just made the other games in their collection more valuable...
Quoted from reffob:Yeah that's pretty awesome
The far left lane to figure 8 looks to be the more satisfying of directions as it’s a long shot up and back.
Quoted from flynnibus:Wait for the next pin where they swap the drops for standups, remove the lcd, and replace the reels.
Quoted from Grantman:I guess we were all imagining something amazing when you combine all 25 James Bond movies and Keith Elwin on a super premium game budget. Most of us are very disappointed by the value and features that this game delivers.
Quoted from apessino:I am just confused (and yes, disappointed) by the product - neither angry not questioning the merits of capitalism or thinking that this is a defining moment for the pinball industry.
Quoted from nicoy3k:This should be a 4k home pin. What an absolute embarrassment. If you pay 20k for this please seek help.
It does really come down to value more so than price. Why pay more than double for half as much a product unless you can wring value from it like putting it on location. The same reason I don't spend more to get Calvin Klein's name on my underwear rather than Fruit of the Loom (sorry sly BTTF reference there which is a pin I would really be disappointed if to get the license, this would be the result, regardless of the designer or especially because the designer would be so hampered). Maybe if they included a commemorative plate collection to go with it from the Franklin Mint or Bradbury Exchange. This one was only 75$ for the lot on Ebay and arguable has better art, though sadly, like most collectables it did not go up in value...
bondplate (resized).jpgQuoted from flynnibus:Again, the argument of “just don’t buy it” to an individual does not hold water. These sales are not happening in isolation. And you can bet there are lessons about price tolerance that will be applied back to cornerstones.
The notion of ‘dont buy it and you can just ignore it’ is naive.
The depressing part is all the people sho think just a 30% discount starts to make this attractive. That is people subconsciously thinking ‘if i get in at the right price… i can still do ok’ because they know they will sell eventually.
Wait for the next pin where they swap the drops for standups, remove the lcd, and replace the reels.
If sales aren't happening the price will come down. Market will decide what it's worth. Same goes for all recent pinball price hikes.
From what I can see, Scooby Doo was priced right and Bond SLE / Toy Story were priced wrong. If people get caught up in the hype and pay full price for things that are overpriced oh well. They can likely afford it.
The real deals are in the resale market now with the economy slowing fast. NIB prices will likely follow.
Quoted from BrokenChair:This game looks awesome but I think I’ll take my 2.5 pro machines instead
With a looming recession we may be heading into a pro pinball kind of world for the next while!
Quoted from TreyBo69:You normally love to write longwinded responses in your arguments, and you haven't made a very compelling one yet. It makes me think you don't have a legitimate argument because deep down you know this is basic capitalism, so now it's an emotional response to not liking how the hobby is trending.
If you don't like expensive games, don't buy them. They'll stop making them if people actually stop buying them. And if people don't stop buying them, why be mad about it? The company is trying to cater to the market. And more importantly, if you don't like this game...Stern will have something new to sell you in a couple months and with different price points.
Deep down some people do like it when Stern raises the prices because it just made the other games in their collection more valuable...
Your ideal assumes the market is real and pure. Hence what i said back at the start about scalpers and flippers.
Just because sales happen that doesn’t necessarily establish a true picture of the market. When the sales are skewed by non-consumers, speculation or pockets of buyers… sales are not representative of the true price tolerance of the market.
When discussing the state of the market you can’t just say ‘ignore it if you don’t like it’ as if it will somehow change if you close your eyes.
The best thing that could happen for a correction would be the collapse of resale value. Then we’d see what people are really willing to pay for the entertainment.
Speculation continues to haunt us and without much competition that will continue to be an issue.
Choices in the market dillute the demand focus that is happening now.
Quoted from reffob:If memory serves George said it was the figure 8 shot in the upper left of the playfield, which does look like a pretty sweet shot.[quoted image]
At first I see nothing special about the ampersand shot. But on 2nd glance, looking at the bottom ("exit") of that shot, you can see a lock insert going up into the shot. Therefore that shot must be able to be hit both ways.
Perhaps this is the shot GG was referring to, because the traditional way we're looking at it is very Gottlieb-esque. But looking at it in reverse may be the first time a shot starts so low, loops, and exits so high.
Quoted from kool1:If sales aren't happening the price will come down. Market will decide what it's worth. Same goes for all recent pinball price hikes.
If consumers only bought for their own use… true. But the pin market is not that pure right now
Quoted from flynnibus:If consumers only bought for their own use… true. But the pin market is not that pure right now
Well if pin flippers get burned that's ok also.
Quoted from ReadyPO:it did not go up in value...
I think they missed the peak of the generation that would have dropped big bucks on Bond. This is a classic case of violating the “taking advantage of the old and geriatric” laws, if I have ever seen one. Good thing they are only looking for 500 old coots willing to shell out a huge chunk of retirement savings on 5 minutes of fun. If it were me, I’d spend it in a brothel or on a street corner. I think I could get about 200 decent fucks for this kind of money instead of the single big giant one Stern is trying to give 500 poor saps. Just my indignation at Stern’s gall and balls.
It really is fun reading all the arguments about this.
Just to add fuel to the fire, I know I'll never own one. The value to cost ratio, for me, isn't there. Even from a collector standpoint (of which there are a few "licensed" items I collect) I don't see the value. To me, for $20k, it should be a showpiece of my collection and the art and look just don't have the wow factor for me. I have no doubt that it will be a fun game and play very good but to be a centerpiece of a collection (either pinball, arcade, or Bond) it should look amazing. I mean, history is full of cars that had groundbreaking stuff, were great rides, were great performers but they looked like shit so they are nothing but pictures in a history book.
My bigger concern is the direction of Stern. As a motorcycle enthusiast I see Harley doing the same things and they've been doing them a bit longer and its starting to bite them in the a$$. Their focus on expensive bikes with collector appeal and all the bells and whistles is hurting them. Sure there are people out there that have the disposable income to buy a $50k bike. But they're usually older and they're dying off and by focusing on that segment they aren't bringing new people to the hobby. Additionally, they play the big corporate games of "we sold all our stock" when reporting to the shareholders but there are dealers starting to sit on that inventory that Harley has "sold"
I've been to a few pinball shows and the attendees look alot like motorcycle shows, getting older by the year. Sure there are some young(er) people there but not enough to keep the industry going. So right now Stern may be making a killing on their LE/SLE whatever high end pins, they're pricing the next gen out of the market and soon, there will be no market left.
Just my wooden nickel. Sorry to add fuel to the fire.
I consider Stern to be more like the guy that you are willing to give a dollar to but they will take 2.
Don't confuse my Passion for Anger, either. The big companies are setting the pace for the future of OUR hobby and at this pace it's creating instability (take that any way you want).
Quoted from Cobray:creating instability
Fucking Bingo dude… exactly spot the fuck on. I would love me some fucking pinball pricing stability right now, like back in the days of the big three, where NOBODY was buying for the home market at all. When decent titles and prices could be found post routing and, though rode hard, would still get you a little wet when playing them. Yeah those days are long the fuck gone.
Quoted from flynnibus:Your ideal assumes the market is real and pure. Hence what i said back at the start about scalpers and flippers.
Just because sales happen that doesn’t necessarily establish a true picture of the market. When the sales are skewed by non-consumers, speculation or pockets of buyers… sales are not representative of the true price tolerance of the market.
When discussing the state of the market you can’t just say ‘ignore it if you don’t like it’ as if it will somehow change if you close your eyes.
The best thing that could happen for a correction would be the collapse of resale value. Then we’d see what people are really willing to pay for the entertainment.
Speculation continues to haunt us and without much competition that will continue to be an issue.
Choices in the market dillute the demand focus that is happening now.
There is speculation on certain titles and it does go bust (see Ultraman). Rest of the market is fine in general though. No other games are losing a ton of value. At worst it's back to being inline to how it used to be where you'd lose around $500 for taking the game out of the box and playing it for a bit (though LEs seem mostly immune to this - if you hold onto to any of them they will eventually go up in value)
All the speculators and flippers did was drive themselves out of the market by basically forcing the companies to re-evaluate the market rate for their product. The causalities are the enthusiasts who could afford a 10k LE but now a 13k LE is a deal breaker for them.
This is a perfect game to re-theme down the line for a Pro, Premium/LE roll out.....take the hat spinner out and the playfield screen and you have an amazing pro. Place a subway hole behind the 3 in-line drop targets to feed a lower playfield, instead of the saucer for the Premium/LE models. Taking the spinner out and screen would allow for the lower playfield. Elwin is on Jaws 
Collectible that only has artificial scarcity. Nothing from the actual franchise… no screen used things… nothing from the performances or performers. Little original content from the franchise. Nothing really exotic - jusg fake retro. Nothing that can stand besides the pinball itself.
I find it weak as any kind of collector item. The scarcity is not that tight either. Heck, even jpop and gene knew you needed smaller numbers to truly be considered scarce.
Batman SLE had a way better collectors pitch
Also let me be clear, the game is stupidly expensive, the art is meh at best, and they could do more things to add value to the game. But I'm also not mad about it. It's just a pinball machine.
All pinball machines are fun, some are more fun. All pinball machines are expensive, some are more expensive.
The hobby is booming and there are more places to buy a NIB game than there have been in decades. These are the best of times, but people are so mad for reasons...
Quoted from TreyBo69:There is speculation on certain titles and it does go bust (see Ultraman). Rest of the market is fine in general though. No other games are losing a ton of value.
People still assume insane residuals and people still buy out of fear of availability. Artificial scarcity is still the biggest value driver in the market.
This is not a natural point yet.
I just posted my 60th SLE for $17,400. If I can't sell it I will accept it and play. Still looks fun.
Can't believe there's no art blades on this thing for $20,000 - lol
https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/149100
Quoted from dpadam450:Banks are catching on. Auto Loans obsolete.[quoted image]
O... my... goodness... I just Googled "Pinball Loan" and there are multiple hits. If you need to take out a loan to get a pin you can't afford it.
This is a real, undoctored website (no idea if its legit or not, proceed with caution). I know you were joking with an edited site... I had not idea this was a thing.
finance (resized).png
Edit:
There's more...
Fin 3 (resized).pngfin2 (resized).pngI think the one thing people don't understand with frustration is that people want to afford pinball. "Don't like don't buy"..........but we do like. We do want to buy. If Sony releases Playstation 6 at $1,000 and just tells all those kids "don't like the price, don't buy". This is for exclusive people only, that's a pretty low attitude. I don't think people should accept that idea. We all want more games to play.
It's a fun hobby and continually making it more exclusive, is not the way to go in my own opinion. Most designers of any product from Scrub Daddy to videogames, want to sell as many of that product they poured time into. I'd be pretty sad to spend a year or whatever time creating a game that so little people get to play.
If it's really true that the price was just slashed $3,000 that easily, then why not just set a fair price to start with. It's a tightly formed small community. Be fair with the money you ask from them.
Quoted from Bublehead:Good thing they are only looking for 500 old coots willing to shell out a huge chunk of retirement savings on 5 minutes of fun.
Quoted from TheClownpuncher:My bigger concern is the direction of Stern. As a motorcycle enthusiast I see Harley doing the same things and they've been doing them a bit longer and its starting to bite them in the a$$.
Generally I am not a cargument proponent but I very much agree with the Harley comparison. Certainly, Stern has made some good decisions lately such as taking advantage of tax benefits and record backlogs to up their plant capacity (though it is not entirely clear if that was mostly due to being kicked out of their existing space). However, they need to be careful as they move forward if this is the model they intend to follow.
Harley's problems started with a decline in engineering improvement that allowed competitors to catch up, the selection of a non-motorcyclist enthusiast (Keith Wandell in the 2000's) as the CEO, part chain issues (including quality and yes this affects most pinball manufacturers these days), more concern over company valuation than product, pandering to an ageing age group and not developing new markets, premium (name brand) pricing with average quality, losing buyer appeal over short-term decisions, dealer requirements such as new oversized facilities that bankrupted several of them, etc. Not saying Stern is going down this road, just that I agree Harley would be a great business case study for Stern to review...
Edit: Godzilla on the otherhand was a masterpiece and shows exactly what Stern is capably of. I hope that level of effort wasn't just to dump on Spooky by getting the license, but something they can continue to produce. One pin here doesn't imply Stern is going down by any means. More like this, $2,000 toppers, etc. etc. - hope this is not the trend.
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:O... my... goodness... I just Googled "Pinball Loan" and there are multiple hits.
Ha, mine was a photoshop, but maybe that's a good idea in all honesty.
Quoted from TreyBo69:All pinball machines are fun, some are more fun. All pinball machines are expensive, some are more expensive.
Couldn't disagree more with "All pinball machines are fun"...absurd. No big deal to be disappointed when plunking quarters in, but this forum is largely for folks that purchase these beasts.
Quoted from dpadam450:I think the one thing people don't understand with frustration is that people want to afford pinball. "Don't like don't buy"..........but we do like. We do want to buy. If Sony releases Playstation 6 at $1,000 and just tells everyone "don't like the price, don't buy". This is for exclusive people only, that's a pretty low attitude. I don't think people should accept that idea. We all want more games to play.
It's a fun hobby and continually making it more exclusive, is not the way to go in my own opinion. Most designers of any product from Scrub Daddy to videogames, want to sell as many of that product they poured time into. I'd be pretty sad to spend a year or whatever time creating a game that so little people get to play.
If it's really true that the price was just slashed $3,000 that easily, then why not just set a fair price to start with. It's a tightly formed small community. Be fair with the money you ask from them.
Video games are a poor comparison because it's trivial to "make" more of them once you make the base product.
There is legitimate supply constraints in building a complicated widget. (And video game consoles are complicated, but also the whole business model is built on selling licensed video games for the console, so there is a huge incentive to sell as cheap as the market can bear)
And also it ignores the fact that Stern makes a variety of pins at a variety of prices
Find a pinball machine on location and they all cost the same to play. People are definitely going to put this game on location. Enthusiast will get their chance to paly.
Quoted from Betelgeuse:After finally catching up on this thread, I have determined that I am... OUT
As are about everyone else except the approximate 500 or so addicts from Stern’s customer base that distributors have on speed dial and will buy anything their pusher is selling at 3 am on a Sunday night even if it’s bubblegum flavored diarrhea collected from the asses of unicorns. Or is my pricing indignation not evident on this gigantic turd pile? That was rhetorical….
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:O... my... goodness... I just Googled "Pinball Loan" and there are multiple hits. If you need to take out a loan to get a pin you can't afford it.
This is a real, undoctored website (no idea if its legit or not, proceed with caution). I know you were joking with an edited site... I had not idea this was a thing.
[quoted image]
Edit:
There's more...
[quoted image][quoted image]
Loans were available and directly linked in the cart on Sterns Insider sale of Bond 60th.
I didn’t buy one but clicked it anyway to see what the terms were.
This is a picture from the lending establishment (Affirm) with purchase options for different length terms and financing costs… 
CRAZY!
58C57970-ADC5-44D9-8DA4-B36D11980BB6 (resized).jpegQuoted from TreyBo69:Video games are a poor comparison
Well my point for clarity: You have identical products, the past product and current product, but triple the price. I just don't believe it's good business to tell fellow pinball people fans "Oh well this is an out of reach exclusive game experience because you don't have enough money."
Quoted from TreyBo69:Find a pinball machine on location and they all cost the same to play. People are definitely going to put this game on location. Enthusiast will get their chance to paly.
Well arcades around me have raised their prices, for lot's of reasons I'm sure, probably the main one being inflation. But if games go up crazy as well and you need to make your money back in quarters, then you raise how many quarters you ask. As the other guy said he would put it out in public, I doubt other people want to put $20k games in arcades.
I just tried to use those loan numbers to figure cost to play the average 200 or less plays you find on a collector level pin title, and the actual cost per game was making me get so nauseous that I had to stop and put my head between my knees…. And kiss my future NIB pinball purchases goodbye.
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