Jacks open drop target score problem

I just finished restoring my Jacks Open and noticed a few problems with scoring I need help with. I’d like to start with the drop targets first. The good is they reset normally, both at the beginning of the game and after each task is completed. By task I mean when completing two Jacks, three Queens, full house, etc. The problem is they don’t score regardless of how many suit rollovers are completed. When a target is knocked down the score motor runs briefly and the drop target score relay (G) activates and releases. I’ve cleaned and adjusted the contacts on the (G) relay several times with no affect. The 1000 point relay (L) doesn’t activate. I could use some help.

#2 4 years ago

AAB

leckmeck

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from Silverstreak02:
I just finished restoring my Jacks Open and noticed a few problems with scoring I need help with. I’d like to start with the drop targets first. The good is they reset normally, both at the beginning of the game and after each task is completed. By task I mean when completing two Jacks, three Queens, full house, etc. The problem is they don’t score regardless of how many suit rollovers are completed. When a target is knocked down the score motor runs briefly and the drop target score relay (G) activates and releases. I’ve cleaned and adjusted the contacts on the (G) relay several times with no affect. The 1000 point relay (L) doesn’t activate. I could use some help.

Since none of the completed rollover sequences are giving you points, the culprit must be something they have in common. Look for the contact on the G relay that goes through the sequence bank for the 1000-point circuit. A jones plug is in the mix here, so verify end-to-end continuity.

#3 4 years ago

WOZ

woz

Pinside member

14y 77,050 1,866

A quick check to eliminate some potential issues: does the game score if you manually operate the 5000 Point E relay? If E does score then you know the 1000 point L relay and Motor 1A switch are ok.

Image 8 (resized).png

#4 4 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member

Springfield, MA

7y 63,550 3,312 6

Did you check the sw. on the bank itself?

#5 4 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member

Springfield, MA

7y 63,550 3,312 6

There are also some score motor sw. involved.

Capture (resized).PNG

#6 4 years ago

???

Silverstreak02

Pinside member

Quoted from currieddog:
Did you check the sw. on the bank itself?

yes

#7 4 years ago

???

Silverstreak02

Pinside member

Quoted from woz:
A quick check to eliminate some potential issues: does the game score if you manually operate the 5000 Point E relay? If E does score then you know the 1000 point L relay and Motor 1A switch are ok.[quoted image]

I’ll check this tonight. Thanks

#8 4 years ago

???

Silverstreak02

Pinside member

Quoted from woz:
A quick check to eliminate some potential issues: does the game score if you manually operate the 5000 Point E relay? If E does score then you know the 1000 point L relay and Motor 1A switch are ok.[quoted image]

The game does score when I manually operate the 5000 point “E” relay. It also scores when I manually operate the 1000 point “L” relay. Nothing scores when I manually operate any of the switches on the back side of the drop target bank. The motor does run briefly.

#9 4 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,258

OP
Quoted from Silverstreak02:
When a target is knocked down the score motor runs briefly and the drop target score relay (G) activates and releases

Does the Drop Target Score relay (G) hold in for a full 1/3 turn of the motor?

#10 4 years ago

AAB

leckmeck

Pinside member

Check the switch on the G relay with the green-white-red wire and maroon wire. Make sure it closes tightly and is clean.

#11 4 years ago

???

Silverstreak02

Pinside member

Quoted from HowardR:
Does the Drop Target Score relay (G) hold in for a full 1/3 turn of the motor?

yes

#12 4 years ago

???

Silverstreak02

Pinside member

Quoted from leckmeck:
Check the switch on the G relay with the green-white-red wire and maroon wire. Make sure it closes tightly and is clean.

I cleaned it and checked for solid contact again.

#13 4 years ago

???

Silverstreak02

Pinside member

This machine is starting to just look good. I’m getting frustrated.

#14 4 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,258

If the game doesn't score anything when all 4 Sequence Bank Top Rollover relays (1B,2B,3B,4B) are made and the Drop Target Score relay (G) is activated, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features

pasted_image (resized).png

#15 4 years ago

AAB

leckmeck

Pinside member

Quoted from HowardR:
If the game doesn't score anything when all 4 Sequence Bank Top Rollover relays (1B,2B,3B,4B) are made and the Drop Target Score relay (G) is activated, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires.

Yes, the problem is most likely hiding somewhere in the circuit Howard has outlined in red. It’s a long trip from score motor 1a, through the sequence bank, through the G relay, and then to the L relay. You’re hopping through at least three jones plug connections. Check for a good connection between destinations with a multi-meter. Measure resistance instead of continuity. You want a reading close to zero ohms.

#16 4 years ago

WOZ

woz

Pinside member

14y 77,050 1,866

Quoted from leckmeck:
Measure resistance instead of continuity. You want a reading close to zero ohms.

^^^^ This!! I can't tell you how many people get confused when they use the continuity checker on EM's!

#17 4 years ago

???

Silverstreak02

Pinside member

Quoted from HowardR:
If the game doesn't score anything when all 4 Sequence Bank Top Rollover relays (1B,2B,3B,4B) are made and the Drop Target Score relay (G) is activated, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features[quoted image]

Sorry for the delayed response. I have some other problems that I haven’t mentioned yet. I should share one additional piece of information related to this problem. Not only does the target score not increase as each suit is made, they don’t score at all. What I mean is that without any of the rollovers made the targets should score 1000 points, but they don’t.

#18 4 years ago

AAB

leckmeck

Pinside member

OP
Quoted from Silverstreak02:
Sorry for the delayed response. I have some other problems that I haven’t mentioned yet. I should share one additional piece of information related to this problem. Not only does the target score not increase as each suit is made, they don’t score at all. What I mean is that without any of the rollovers made the targets should score 1000 points, but they don’t.

All of the scoring for the drop targets go through that highlighted circuit, even when you haven’t tripped any of the rollovers. Those four score motor switches (2C, 4B, 4C, 1B) in that circuit are known as carry-over/elimination switches. They are timed to coincide with the pulses on 1A. With no rollovers completed, they eliminate four of the pulses from 1A when you hit a drop target, but one pulse gets through for 1000 points.

#19 4 years ago

???

Silverstreak02

Pinside member

Update:
I wasn’t able to identify the wire colors with any confidence so I cleaned and gapped all of the switches on the sequence bank. What a bear. I tested and found the targets don’t score or chime with no rollovers made and with the club, spade or heart rollover made. Now it gets weird. I tested again and still had nothing without any of the rollovers made. When I made the diamond rollover I got a chime and 2000 points when any target was made. Once the diamond rollover was made I hit the club and it produced a chime and 3000 points when hitting a target. Then making the spade and heart produced proper results. Any thoughts?

#20 4 years ago

AAB

leckmeck

Pinside member

Sorry, I was slightly incorrect about the minimum 1000 points from drop targets going through the red-highlighted circuit in Howard’s image. It goes through the four NC switches on the score motor. See the highlighted image below. The first pulse from 1A should get through, then the remaining four are eliminated by those score motor switches. Unless, of course, you have completed some of the rollover sequences.

Did you disassemble the score motor when you restored this game?

Score Motor Switches (resized).png

#21 4 years ago

???

Silverstreak02

Pinside member

Quoted from leckmeck:
Sorry, I was slightly incorrect about the minimum 1000 points from drop targets going through the red-highlighted circuit in Howard’s image. It goes through the four NC switches on the score motor. See the highlighted image below. The first pulse from 1A should get through, then the remaining four are eliminated by those score motor switches. Unless, of course, you have completed some of the rollover sequences.
Did you disassemble the score motor when you restored this game?
[quoted image]

Yes I cleaned all the switches on everything. Do a search for Jacks Open Project in the restoration section. It took almost a year to get to this point. The scoring worked before so I know its something I did.

#22 4 years ago

AAB

leckmeck

Pinside member

When you reassembled the score motor, did you put the switch dogs back to their correct short/long positions?

Coincidentally, my first score motor disassembly/reassembly was a Jacks Open. I had a couple of the switch dogs in the wrong positions, and it caused all kinds of weirdness to happen.

#23 4 years ago

???

Silverstreak02

Pinside member

Quoted from leckmeck:
When you reassembled the score motor, did you put the switch dogs back to their correct short/long positions?
Coincidentally, my first score motor disassembly/reassembly was a Jacks Open. I had a couple of the switch dogs in the wrong positions, and it caused all kinds of weirdness to happen.

I checked that a couple of times. They are in the correct spots. I may take the bottom board out to go over all the switches again. Truth is I replaced most of the fish paper on the score motor. It’s no surprise to me if I messed up something. Disassembling the switch stacks was a drag. I hope to have time to work on it this weekend. I want to get this one working so I can move on to something else.

#24 4 years ago

???

Silverstreak02

Pinside member

I looked closer are the schematic and believe the second switch on motor 4b isn’t making contact. I’ll get access to the switch this weekend.

#25 4 years ago

MFS

goldenboy232

Pinside member

Alamo Heights, TX

9y 79,300 1,816 4 15

I’ve just recently learned to use jumper wires (still not 100% proficient with it) but that can save a ton of time and pinpoint where the problem is if you learn to do that on an issue like this.

#26 4 years ago

???

Silverstreak02

Pinside member