(Topic ID: 213645)

Jacks Open always in Game Over

By pmdub

6 years ago


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  • 11 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by HowardR
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 6 years ago

Pushing the reset button goes into the startup sequence. Score reels are zeroed, targets are reset, ball count is reset, but it stops with game over flashing.
The Hold relay is actuated but then released, and the tilt hold relay is not actuated. If I then manually actuate the tilt hold relay and then actuate the Hold relay they both stay actuated. At no point can I get the ball to kick out, even after manually actuating the hold relay and manually actuating the ball return relay. I have the schematic, but I'm still struggling with this. Any help would be appreciated.

#2 6 years ago

Scan and post the schematic, please.

#3 6 years ago

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#5 6 years ago

I'll need to see a high quality scan of the schematic from e.g. Staples ($2) or Kinkos ($6)

#6 6 years ago

The problem seems to be neither the Hold Relay or the Tilt Hold Relay are staying actuated after the reset.

The Tilt Hold Relay never moves during the startup. The Hold Relay actuates and then releases after the startup ends with game over.

Then if I push in both relays, the Tilt Hold and the Hold at the same time, they both stay pulled in and the game over light goes out. But, I still can't get the game in scoring mode after that. Forcing the ball to eject by engaging the ball return relay doesn't help get it to be able to score.

The fact that the two relays can be actuated manually and then they hold seems to help eliminate many of the possible problem switches, but I'm still stuck.

#7 6 years ago

Hi pmdub
here http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/ to here http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=EM_Repair --- good stuff.
Here http://www.pinrepair.com/ to here http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index.htm --- good stuff.
Here http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#axrelayvideo look at the video - at exactly 1:04 to 1:42 Clay (?) shows a modern 4-player-pin - he manually moves the AX-Relay --- see: both states are stable (stable - moved and stays stable - moved and stays stable etc.). At exactly 2:17 to 2:46 Clay does start a modern One-Player-Pin. Stare at the AX-Relay - at 2:32 it moves means the AX-Coil pulls and at 2:38 it moves means the AXR-Coil pulls.

Toggle-off the pin and unplug the main power cord. Make the pin believe You had played a game - manually put some points to the Score-Drums, have some replays on the Replay-Counter. Do move the AX-Relay as if the AXR-Coil would pull (like in the video at 2:38). Plug-in, toggle-on - You see in the Backbox "Tilt is lit". Press the Replay-Button to start a game. The S-Relay should pull-in, the motor should run, the R-Relay should pull-in and stay pulling, the H-Relay should pull-in and stay pulling, the AX-Relay should move (and more stuff does happen but) - look at the JPG:

Green-1 - green-2 (the R-Relay is not yet pulling) - the green-3 / S-Relay pulls-in - closes (green-4) its Self-Hold-Switch. As S-Relay is pulling: Also blue-5 closes - the R-Relay (blue-6) pulls-in and closes its Self-Hold-Switch (blue-7), also blue-8 closes.
During this time the motor is running so orange-5a is closed, also closed is orange-5b --- (orange-6 fires) --- orange-7 / AX-Relay MOVES so switch-orange-8 is moved and then the H-Relay (orange-9) pulls-in and closes ist Self-Hold-Switch (orange-10), also closes orange-11.

The motor starts running when You press the Replay-Button and the S-Relay pulls-in - turns 15, 30 45 degrees - turns further --- 90, 05 degrees - at 118, 119 degrees the motor-switch-2B (my green text: opens late) opens so the S-Relay must let go (quit pulling).
BUT: R-Relay MUST stay pulling and H-Relay MUST stay pulling - R-Relay must stay pulling through blue-7 and orange-11 --- H-Relay must stay pulling through orange-10 and blue-8.
The Reset-Ball-Count-Unit MUST have fired through orange-5a and through orange-5b.

pmdub - I would like to stick to "written above" - I would like to have as result of "toggling-on and pressing the Replay-Button": R-Relay stays pulling, H-Relay stays pulling, Reset-Ball-Count-Unit coil has fired. When all this is working we then proceed. Greetings Rolf

0Jacks-Open-Work-01 (resized).jpg0Jacks-Open-Work-01 (resized).jpg

#8 6 years ago

Thanks Rolf! The numbering on the schematic is very helpful. I think everything happens properly until 8. I suspect the problem could be with the AX normally open contact not closing when it should. I will have to wait till this evening to investigate.

#9 6 years ago

AX relays can be a little tetchy. They have a nice snap when adjusted correctly: http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#reset

#10 6 years ago

The mystery is finally solved. The problem was a bad jones plug connector. After checking and double checking the switches on the AX relay and not finding a problem. I attempted to trace the red-green wire that connects the AX switch to the Hold Relay switch R. This wire goes through a jones plug in the light box and the wire in the jones plug turned out to be loose. Looks like it was reconnected by a poor solder job at some time over the years. Right now I have it jumpered to the AX relay switch with an alligator clip and the startup now works properly all the way through to the ball eject and the playfield coming live.

Thanks Rolf, your sequence of startup pointed my in the direction of the problem.

Btw, Is there any documentation on the pinouts of the jones plugs in these machines? I don't see anything in the Game operation instructions. That would be a nice thing to have.

#11 6 years ago
Quoted from pmdub:

Is there any documentation on the pinouts of the jones plugs in these machines? I don't see anything in the Game operation instructions. That would be a nice thing to have.

Couldn't agree more. Unfortunately Williams machine manuals are about the only ones with that kind of detail.

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