(Topic ID: 135196)

Jack in the Box project

By PinballFever

8 years ago


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#1 8 years ago

I need to get this game cleaned up, restored and working then play it for a while before selling it to make room for another game.

It's daunting when I stare at the game because it looks like a lot of work. I need your help and encouragement to get started.

JITB.jpgJITB.jpg

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First question: Which part of a project do you usually start with? The head? Playfield? cabinet? Which is easier to start with?

I'm thinking maybe I should start with the switches and stepper units in the head and at the same time take out, TT and repair the BG?

This seems like a thousand mile journey from start to finish but I have to take the first step.

Bruce

#2 8 years ago

There's a post here on the forum for all JITB, search it.
JITB is a nice game, I recently also restored one.

My way of working is to first play / test it. If it's not working then at least get it playable.

Only then I shop the playfield (and repair what I know what was wrong on it), that way I know I didn't introduce more problems with shopping the playfield.
I don't clean all steppers / relais.. just enough to get the game working and then play a lot and see if any issues show up.

#3 8 years ago

Thanks aeneas.

This game is a "project". It wasn't working when I bought it cheap years ago and it needs a complete going through.

I started a tech thread on it here but life happens and I had to put it on hold until now.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jack-in-the-box-wont-start

I'm adding threads here for my own reference and for other JITB owners to use. I will be using Vid1900's excellent PF restoration and pop/flipper rebuild threads as a guide.

Vid1900's guides:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-ultimate-playfield-restoration
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-rebuilding-pop-bumpers

I will also be using pinrepair.com and other resources/links I found over time here.

pinrepair and other guides (I need to organize my bookmarks so I can find them quicker!)
http://www.pinrepair.com/restore/jjpf.htm

Startup sequence:
http://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/tip0480.html

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THE GOOD:
I have a schematic and I know how to clean/adjust switches, clean/lube stepper contacts.
Being an artist, I'm good at drawing and have a good eye for mixing/matching colors. This will come in handy for touchup, restoration.

THE BAD:
I work full time and have a wife. Will need to do this after work and on the weekends.
I've never disassembled steppers, score motors and involved mechanisms. Hope I don't have to but I will if necessary. My biggest concern with disassembly is getting them back together. I'll be taking many photos and making videos so I don't "forget" how to reassemble them.
This is a FOUR player game... I wish I was starting with a one player game but the "price was right" for this game.

=======================================================================

I am thinking about starting with the head so I can TT and touch up the BG at the same time I do the switches, steppers and score reels. Will try to start tonight after work.

#4 8 years ago
Quoted from PinballFever:

I need to get this game cleaned up, restored and working then play it for a while before selling it to make room for another game.

You need to think long and hard about this if you are hoping to dump it and not lose your ass on it.

Quoted from PinballFever:

I work full time and have a wife. Will need to do this after work and on the weekends.

This will factor into it as well.

Best case, I see about a $650 game there. With that in mind, I would work on cleaning and minimizing parts that go into it. Unless a goal of yours it to "practice", I don't see the sense in a clear coat/touch up. NOW if you are hobbying it - that is another story, but you opened with the desire to unload it in the not too distant future.

My rule of thumb is to expect to put $150 into parts in a game like that.

What to start with? Given your level of experience, you may want to work on getting it functional, taking baby steps. Pull the PF, pull the bottom board out. Make sure the relays and steppers in the bottom board are all functional. Same for the back box. Try to get it through the start up sequence. Shop out the PF.

When I work on a machine, I mostly scatter it and reassemble. If everything gets cleaned up anyway, it makes little difference what order you do it in. But, like I mentioned earlier, if you want to limit your exposure to mistakes, you may want to go the baby step route.

#5 8 years ago

I concur with Todd.

If the goal is move it along, then the cheapest/fastest route is to offer it 'as-is'; if you got it for a good deal, you can pass that along and save your time for the next project (perhaps a single-player). Or offer it as a trade for a single-player.

But if you really want to bring it back to life, the happy medium is to try to get it operational first (i.e., start, reset, advance through 3 or 5 balls, go to game over). The downside with this approach is that you'll likely encounter multiple problems all at once, which makes it confusing and challenging to triage and work through. So the hope is to first inspect all the moving parts to make sure they physically operate (steppers, solenoids, etc.), make sure there are no loose wires, check the fuses for correct size, no mangled switches, and manually place everything in the reset position (zero out all score reels, reset the relay bank, unlatch the interlock switches, reset the steppers, and so on). Then you can further assess what may be required after firing it up.

Personally, my order is: cabinet, score motor board, backbox, depop playfield topside, do playfield underside, do playfield topside, power on for first time. But everything gets a complete tear down/rebuild as I go, which isn't really the time commitment you're going to want to make yet.

#6 8 years ago

If you're fixing to sell:

1. Turn over the playfield and take a close look at and test the ohms of the coils. Do any need replacing? Coils can be expensive.
2. Do the same with the coils in the head, the bottom board and check the transformer. If the transformer is shot, part the game out.
3. Look carefully at the flipper assemblies, do they need a rebuild? Keep in mind that Jack in the box has 4 flippers and flipper rebuilds are pricey.
4. Look at the wiring. If this game was on location for a long time, what quick fixes were done that need ondoing?
5. Look at the exterior metal parts (legs, side rails, coin door). Are they pitted?
6. Look at the cabinet. What's the minimum you can do to make the machine look pretty enough for someone's rec room?
7. Look at the scoring reels and mechs. Are they in good shape?
8. Are any of the playfield plastics cracked? What about the pop bumpers? Do they need rebuilding, or do they work as is?

Factor in about 10 hours of work between cleaning and soldering and determine whether or not it's worth your time. Also try to remember that even at 20 cents to a dollar a part, you can still end up spending well over $100 in parts and you're not going to get much money for a wedgehead from that era. Depending on where you live, you can expect $200-600 for that game fully working.

#7 8 years ago
Quoted from jjpm:

If the transformer is shot, part the game out.

Transformers hardly ever fail, and even so, can be replaced without needing to part out an entire game.

#8 8 years ago
Quoted from jjpm:

If you're fixing to sell:
1. Turn over the playfield and take a close look at and test the ohms of the coils. Do any need replacing? Coils can be expensive.
2. Do the same with the coils in the head, the bottom board and check the transformer.

Coils rarely fail and imo a waste of time to test upfront also. To properly test the correct ohms value, you need to unsolder at least one lead on each coil you're testing - otherwise your measurements will be off. Most problems I run into are dirty gummed-up steppers, score reel issues, switches dirty or out of adjustment on relays residing on the motor board - everything is time consuming........ I'm not saying a coil can't be bad but best to wait until you isolate it and then replace it.

#9 8 years ago
Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Transformers hardly ever fail, and even so, can be replaced without needing to part out an entire game.

Quoted from hoov:

Coils rarely fail and imo a waste of time to test upfront also. To properly test the correct ohms value, you need to unsolder at least one lead on each coil you're testing - otherwise your measurements will be off. Most problems I run into are dirty gummed-up steppers, score reel issues, switches dirty or out of adjustment on relays residing on the motor board - everything is time consuming........ I'm not saying a coil can't be bad but best to wait until you isolate it and then replace it.

I usually don't do any of what I suggested when initially diagnosing why a pin won't work. The first thing I look at are contact points and if there are any obvious cracked solder joints, stuck switches, stuck coil plungers, etc... I also look at the steppers to see if they are in need of a rebuild or not. I just provided a laundry list of what costs the most if they need replacing in a pin and have come across plenty of machines that are missing coils, transformers, etc. Transformers, flipper rebuild kits, cracked/missing plastics, burnt coils etc cost a lot more to replace than a coil sleeve or some rubbers and bulbs. Clear coating and making a playfield and cabinet look perfect are a complete waste of time for a machine someone's looking to get working and flip. Backglass: seal and hope it looks pretty when it lights up. Touched up backglasses are not what a rec room buyer cares about when they buy a used pin and a poorly touched up backglass looks worse than a partially flaking backglass. Polish and clean the metal parts. Add some new leg bolts to the front two legs to make it look pretty and brighter. Clean the grime off the machine. Get the game running properly so it's fun to play. That's what those types are looking for in my experience. The wedgehead era EM pinball collector who wants a perfect machine and is willing to spend top dollar represents maybe 1% of the population of people who want to own a pinball machine.

#10 8 years ago
Quoted from newmantjn:

not lose your ass on it.

Quoted from DirtFlipper:

I concur with Todd.

Quoted from DirtFlipper:

But if you really want to bring it back to life

newmantjn and DirtFlipper, I have read and learned from your posts in many threads and your advice is always "spot on".

My goal is to get the game running, clean, touch it up (PF/BG), play it for a while (never played this game) and the only reason I would want to sell it is I know a four player machine would be harder to troubleshoot if I kept it. (that and to make room in that space for a one player game)

I'm not worried about losing my ass on this game because I paid almost nothing for it non working years ago.

I don't want to CC (clear coat) the PF but I do want to touch it up. Is there a way to protect the touch ups without having to CC?

The BG has no delamination but some paint was scraped off from the backboard rubbing against it. I was thinking of triple thicking it then airbrush the colors in as newmantjn did with his Hot Shot here. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-do-i-touch-up-backglass

Quoted from newmantjn:

My approach was to scrape out all the failing paint, triple clear, then shoot with an airbrush. Shoot with white on the back after the colorl

I'm going to start with the cabinet then the score motor board as DirtFlipper suggests. The PF is already out of the cabinet for easier access.

Bruce

#11 8 years ago
Quoted from jjpm:

If you're fixing to sell:

Jjpm, I agree with your points, I'm not looking to "flip" the game though. I'm just looking to fix, clean, touch up, play, enjoy and take pride in the game. I'll be happy if I get back what I put into the game cost wise.

I like your list and I'm going to use it as a guide too.

Bruce

#12 8 years ago
Quoted from PinballFever:

I don't want to CC (clear coat) the PF but I do want to touch it up. Is there a way to protect the touch ups without having to CC?

https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipMKJeK1Uiqhu8zj-lLeoiP5y2lXInBe8fkulU3R

I spot cleared this game with an airbrush and lacquer.

Some people use nail polish, depending on how big the area is.

#13 8 years ago
Quoted from PinballFever:

the only reason I would want to sell it is I know a four player machine would be harder to troubleshoot if I kept it.

It's a Gottlieb for crissakes. Once it's good, it's good for 20 years.

#14 8 years ago

404 error.

I could get an airbrush. Have an electric compressor but will need to research if it has enough PSI for the airbrush.

Quoted from newmantjn:

it's good for 20 years

Ok that's good to know. Whether I keep the game will depend on how much fun the gameplay is for me.

Bruce

#15 8 years ago

Hi Bruce
You have two topics in pinside - I am not shure if Your "JitB" runs 100%. BEFORE thinking about a restoration (the look): I wood fix all faults - if not then there always is the question "Do I MAKE THE FAULT (when putting the parts back together) - or is this an "old fault" ?"

I would do only minor "Touch-ups" - cleaning the plastics, putting-in new lamps and rubbers - check and adjust the settings (3 Balls <-> 5 Balls, Hi-Scores etc.) - maybe try out "Hi-Tap <-> Normal-Tap".

I would do a "Repaint" ONLY when I WANT the pin for ME for LIFETIME. Collectors usually do not buy "Repaint" - they want "Original". Greetings Rolf

#16 8 years ago

Rolf, I'm going through the game in the tech thread here. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jack-in-the-box-wont-start

When I'm done and the game is working, I'll post here about the touch ups and repairs.

I plan to touch up and clean up the cabinet's original paint. The front of backbox and cabinet were painted white by someone. I'm going to remove the white paint and see if the original paint is still there.

Bruce

#17 8 years ago

Hi PinballFever.
It sounds like you have a realistic and good attitude about the repair and sales options. I find that resale value varies by a very wide margin from region to region. Best to look at the current offerings at your local Craigs List (And how long they've been listed) for possible ball park figures.

A 4 player game is not any more difficult to troubleshoot than a 1 or 2 player game IMHO. It is basically the same circuits as a 1 player game except routed through a player-up switch (Player Unit). It can appear intimidating but once you have a good grasp of a 1 player sequence of operation then you should be able to transverse over to a 2 or 4 player game without too much trouble.
With few exceptions, a person can do a real good job repairing a 4 player game and enjoy trouble-free service between every maintenance cycle. On the other hand, the same person can do a hurried up crappy job on a 1 player game and have constant trouble. Yes, a 4 player game can appear intimidating for all the extra reels and the player unit but if you can separate it into its individual player (1-4) circuits then it can make more sense.

Here's my attempt to simplify the complicated reset sequence of your game:

I'm not any great artist (you saw my BG repair) yet I found the airbrush very easy to use, especially with acrylic paints (Water based). I generally use 20-40PSI in my cheap Badger 350 single action airbrush. You don't need a fancy compressor but you will need one either designed for airbrushes or one with a reservoir tank.

On a PF, I think acrylics are good for filling in minor planking, then followed when thoroughly dry with waxing. However if you need to airbrush... which would cover a large surface then I wouldn't expect the acrylic paint to withstand the steel ball, so that's when I clear coat.

#18 8 years ago

Hi SteveFury.
Thanks for your advice! Your project threads inspired me to do this.

I'm disassembling the coin door and wiring because someone painted the coin door/plates black and because there's evidence of spilled drinks running down the coin door into the bottom of the cabinet.

The coin door and mechanisms are rusted/corroded and need to be cleaned. (it disgusts me. I can't stand it)

What I plan to do is use evaporust to try to clean the rust and corrosion off the coin door/mechanism and goo gone or something similiar to try to remove the black paint.

I'm looking through threads because I remember there is another solution you can soak metals in to clean.

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Bruce

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