I don't see anything wrong with the use of a PC or with embedded. They both have their pros and cons. For pinball, I personally think embedded is better, but am using PC now for Spaceballs.

The only JJP thing I think is a waste of time is Pindemption. I'm sure I sound like a broken record but I think they are wasting time and money on that.

I prefer a dedicated board Vs PC for simplicity, SHOULD be more reliable and use less power / generate heat.
Much like I prefer air cooled motorcycles over the water-cooled , fuel injected computer controlled versions.

Simplicity is usually more trouble free IMHO.

I agree with you. I'd prefer to have completely dedicated hardware, but I don't think JJP did anything wrong choosing to use PC hardware. They chose to go a commodity route in favor of future serviceability but at the cost of higher BOM per game. I don't understand their choice to put a known hackable security dongle on it though, seems like a waste. Unless they were just doing it to appease some security requirements from the licensor?

I do agree with a lot of the SPIKE design decisions. The concept is solid and I see upgrade paths. I'm looking forward to getting a SPIKE game so I can start working on adding hardware to the bus. I see a whole aftermarket for the modular boards like solenoid drivers, etc...

Surface Mount won't end up being a problem. I just made a SMD repair to a Raspberry Pi with a regular pencil iron. I'm ultra capable with my hot air station, so I imagine most people will be able to handle it as well.

Fanboyism is nothing new. Happens all the time in niches with companies that have competing products. A gaming console (Wii vs PS vs XBox) is a good example.

"The company I like is better than the company you like...nyah, nyah, nyah"

As for the presentation, I enjoyed seeing a bit more of behind the scenes and the gradual changes from version to version. It certainly makes me appreciate all the work that goes into a pin a bit more. I've always liked seeing behind the curtain.

The problem is, and I'm not trying to be a know-it-all snob at all here (I know I come off that way), most people don't care about how they're built and the process. They put money down on something and expect delivery of promises made, black and white. It is akin to asking an Apple iPhone fan if they're interested in how the latest processor works before they buy it. 99% of the time, the answer will be no. They just want to be wowed by the device specs in comparison to the previous model and/or have the latest and greatest thing simply for bragging rights/status.

Personally, I'm OCD about understanding how things work. It started from necessity when I was broke and needed to figure out ways to obtain the expensive things I wanted as cheaply as possible, in other words, DIY, and then the compulsion consumed me, to the point where I spend too much time doing it and neglect other more important things. I can probably save up and afford working things now, but I refuse to out of principle. I guess there are worse things to be OCD over...

Once again, not sure why this is being repeated? The drivers are not surface mount. Just like the SAM boards. Everyone said they were surface mount when they came out on WPT, because a lot of the parts like the CPUs and memory were. Ended up that Stern had smartly put through hole parts in the locations that might have to be field replaced. I have replaced a few of them and have been thankful for this.

The transistors are pretty plain to see in the picture below. How cool is it have the drive transistors for the flippers and the ball trough and shooter lane so close to the actual coils and save all that wire and harnessing and labor? Makes troubleshooting all that much easier not having to follow wires into the backbox and put the playfield up and down to hook up a meter (or drop screws down into a metal box in the bottom of the cabinet). Nearly everything is on the back of the playfield and yet it does not look crowded. The SPIKE system is definitely an evolution if not a revolution in pinball systems. Round peg in a round hole.

Spikedrivers.jpg

True, a lot of people aren't curious about how things work or how things are made. Some want instant gratification and someone to fix it for them when it breaks.

I don't have any money down, so I'm not waiting on pins & needles for the game to ship--just basically watching from afar. I imagine it's different when the delivery date keeps getting pushed back with money down on the game.

But if I drop $6k-$9k on something, you can sure bet that I'm going to try to learn as much about it as I possibly can.

To be fair, people who watched a seminar titled 'The Making of the Hobbit Pinball' probably wanted to know more about how The Hobbit Pinball was made.

I just wish Aurich would critique every new pin with the fine tooth comb he used on TH.

My understanding is the first electrical engineer Jack hired actually had no idea what he was doing, which is how they ended up with the system they have - 5V switch matrix vs. the WPC-style 12V one, the terrible LED boards that failed, etc.

They've since corrected a lot of it but perhaps they are stuck with the current design for awhile due to sunk engineering costs?

The biggest issue with this game is the same as Woz. Slow, floaty wide body play. The kicker with this though is that the whole playfield is open and in no way needs to be a widebody. It's a shame, as the theme, sound and presentation seem like they are top notch.

Yeah, it's obvious that guy really screwed the pooch. I can only imagine how many hundreds of thousands those mistakes cost JJP.

Heh. You know, I'll be honest, I really only put that kind of energy into something I care about. I wanted Hobbit to be good, or even great, and when I was disappointed I guess I was motivated to speak up. I didn't really think there was much chance of it actually affecting anything, but if I had any part of the art being redone then I'm just grateful the opportunity was there. I think it's a far superior product now.

I've mostly stayed out of the discussion on Kiss for instance, because I find the band a turnoff. I don't really care what happens with that pin. I think Stern made some smart decisions with Spike, and I'm curious to see where they take it. WWE and Kiss are obviously just transition titles, and thematically they're an anathema to me, so it's easy to dismiss them as such.

I'm in the midst of my own licensing challenges and frustrations, and to be perfectly honest I'm actually a bit jealous of what JJP had on Hobbit. For all the restrictions there's an enormous difference when you're dealing with a modern film franchise. There were obviously a pretty vast wealth of digital assets in crisp high resolution that JP was able to draw from. Yes, the first attempt fell flat, for however many reasons, but the end result works great.

Would I prefer some Rankin and Bass hand drawn art? Sure! That wasn't in the cards, any more than a hand drawn Alien pinball is. So it goes, you just have to roll with the nature of things. Perhaps we'll be surprised by Pat's pin in that regard.

Isn't Jack also an electrical engineer?

There's no such thing as a monopoly on parts. You can always buck up and tool it youself. Oh, but that would take money.

We know any Williams IP is clear due to their agreement with Planetary Pinball, so that isn't an issue.

What's left? Unpaid vendors.

PM sent.

WOZ is slow? That's news to me.

I didn't find the game played slow at all. In fact it got faster between Ohio and Allentown - more ball interaction and no playfield protector messing with the ball.

I played it at Allentown and thought it was way less floaty than the first video showed. It's all about set-up, playfield condition, etc.

Once they finish the game and owners dial it in, I think the ball movement is going to be really good.

Yep. Small ramps. Big playfield. Long ball times = Slow

I played several games this weekend. It is very fast and you forget it is a widebody while you are playing it.

Yeah...it didn't feel like a wide body to me, either. In fact, it felt pretty damn good

I guarantee I can have way longer ball times with ST than WOZ. ST has tons of easy shots and little danger.

Very interesting when you pull the D&B report. I'd say it sheds a bright light on what's really going on and why you fail to see a production schedule. I bet vendors want payment up front. This is current and up to date.

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"Long ball times = slow"... When did this become pin law?

My SM begs to differ.

Ouch...

Those summary ratings don't give the full story. Any number of factors can go into why those statuses are listed. It also doesn't show the time span or the types of debt. It really doesn't tell you very much without some details.

Sure, the knee-jerk reaction is "yikes", but that really depends on how those ratings were determined. I bet amazon doesn't have a great rating just because their profit margin is non-existent.

Stick with your day job, the D&B is spot on predictor. Using D&B you better COD anything you sell JJP! Amazon isn't pulling a lot of credit, the company is cash rich and has no cash flow issues. At $425 a share Amazon is in a good place.

Wow. Pinside seems to have reached a new low.

Or at least we know what the D&B stands for now...and I'm pretty sure it's not Dun & Bradstreet.

Huh?

Posting a D&B report for a pinball company on a pinball forum is a new low?

Makes perfect sense to me! Never seen anything worse posted on Pinside! Ever! Where are the mods?!?! This shall not stand!

Yes! I hate when publicly accessible things are posted in public places!

Really? Drama much? I never said this should be moderated. It's just poor form to post this in my opinion.

This isn't publicly accessible. Go to D&B and try to look it up.

Yes. This is clearly no place for public info that might help you make an informed decision as to pre-purchasing an already-late machine and the business health of the manufacturer. No place at all.

What did you expect it to say??

"Well, production is delayed and JJP ran into some unforeseen third party production issues, but pinball is such a strong market we expect a fair to excellent rating by 2016"

Pinball is the shittiest business there is. D&B will hate JJP no matter what. All that matters is whether JJP will begin building and shipping these machines in August. I think they will, but I admit it might be September.

Yes it is. You just have to pay a D&B subscription.

Meh. It's not worth arguing with the same people about about the same things on JJP game #2. By now only a total newb would not know what they are getting into if they preorder a JJP game.

Think there aren't total newbs in on TH? They deserve the risk because they didn't know better? That is exactly why things like D&B exist. Is it also bad form for Jack to come forward and publicly disclose the claims and lawsuit against he and JJP from Elaut? Because that should be on the radar of anyone making an informed decision, too. And before you start with the "same people/same things" stuff, I think everyone should have learned their lessons on this preorder crap. JPOP just burned a bunch of money out of the hobby. Skit B did too. DP got everyone on edge and the jury is still out there. JJP did build and deliver WOZ. But then they ran into the same delay issues on TH and have a potentially draining suit out there against them. At some point the healthy manufacturers have to shake it off and get up to speed. But until that one or two do so, everyone has an absolute right to information. We just watched a ton of our fellow hobbyists get torched by manufactures that all said they were behind on vendor issues and the like. No one is immune to the scrutiny.

Really?

You said this about his post:

If his post was really a "new low" for Pinside, and you were shocked enough by it to say "wow", how can you now turn around and tell me that you don't think the post should have been moderated?

A "new low" for Pinside is something that would be moderated, don't you think?

The only drama was in your original post. You know, the one that has 8 thumbs down now (queue the claim of "same anti JJP posters" in 3...2....1...)

Try not to fanboy so much.

I don't know, you think Jack stole $1.6M from Elaut?? Seems crazy....

When combined with small ramps and wide body. Feels slow to me.

Oh, I have no idea. I have spoken on my few thoughts on the matter. Anyone can sue anyone else for anything. I know that better than most anyone here. Defense can be swift and easy or prolonged and expensive, based on the allegations and evidence. And there was no criminal prosecution of record for the heinous accusations that would have clearly constituted felonies. The truth doesn't matter in this context, actually. What matters is the discovery process, the hourly rate of the attorneys working to defend the suit, the length of the litigation, the size of the war chest funding the defense, and the reasonable expectations of the plaintiffs in settlement negotiations. All of which I have nothing but speculation and educated guesses toward answering. But I do know that suits like this, making it this far without being tossed, aren't ever cheap, and JJP is a named defendant with necessity of defense and defense costs.

I have both...can achieve longer ball times on ST more easily. Love the flow-flow-flow of ST...but WOZ has equally satisfying shots once you learn what you are aiming for. Awesome game.

You want details?? I could give you a list of some of JJP's vendors along with phone numbers. Give them a call and see how their dealings have gone with JJP. That D&B report seems spot on.

I am sorry but this is no longer just rumor and speculation.

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That D&B report answers a lot of questions about why "the pinball mafia" stopped supplying parts. The TRUE reason, no $$$.

The D&B report is concerning... Does anyone know if JJP is still building and selling WOZ machines at a decent clip? I'd have to imagine they are having to rely on parts/machine sales to finance the needed Hobbit parts since credit may not be an option anymore. I feel bad for those waiting since JJP will likely have to build plenty of Hobbit Standards up front to help finance the Hobbit LE's that have already been bought and paid for. Along with the lawsuit it sounds like they have some pretty big hurdles to overcome before they are on solid ground again... I hope it all works out as I know Hobbit will be an amazing game and I can't wait to hear more about Pat's game. I'm just starting to have doubts that the company can make it unless there is an infusion of outside money via private investors. If they are having problems paying vendors using pre-paid Hobbit money that is already collected, I'm not sure how they'll be able to build Pat's game without collecting pre-order money up front? I really hope this has a happy ending for everyone involved!